Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily Art.
Speaker 2: This is the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.
Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,
Speaker 2: the eighteenth of August. I'm Billy Fitzimon's I'm Emma Gillespie.
Speaker 2: Traffic to porn Hub in the UK has dropped by
Speaker 2: forty seven percent since new age verification.
Speaker 1: Laws were enforced.
Speaker 2: It's all because of the UK's Online Safety Act, which
Speaker 2: requires adult sites to check the age of.
Speaker 1: All UK users. So how are they doing that?
Speaker 3: Today? We are going to break down what these new
Speaker 3: laws involve and their immediate impact on online behavior. That
Speaker 3: first quick message from our sponsor, Billy. Let's start with
Speaker 3: these new figures about changes in online traffic in the UK.
Speaker 3: What exactly has happened to Pornhub?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean before we even get into that, we
Speaker 2: Emma did have a conversation off Mike about whether or
Speaker 2: not we actually need to explain what porn hub is.
Speaker 2: I think most people would be familiar with it. If
Speaker 2: you're not, It is the most popular pornography website in
Speaker 2: the world. I actually looked it up and it is
Speaker 2: in the top twenty most visited websites in the world.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: It's even above Netflix.
Speaker 3: There you go. I was gonna say it's like YouTube
Speaker 3: for porn, but maybe it's like Netflix for porn.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think the reason why it's actually so
Speaker 2: popular is because it's free, or there is a free
Speaker 2: version of it.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Now, the reason we are talking about it today is
Speaker 2: because traffic to porn Hub in the UK dropped by
Speaker 2: forty seven percent between the twenty fourth of July and
Speaker 2: the eighth of August this year, So in less than
Speaker 2: a month. That's according to data seen by the Financial
Speaker 2: Times in the UK.
Speaker 3: So a nearly fifty percent reduction in the number of
Speaker 3: people or the number of visits to n Hub in.
Speaker 1: Just a couple of weeks. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: Now, the reason for that is because of new age
Speaker 2: verification requirements that have come into effect in the UK.
Speaker 3: Billy, this is so fascinating to me because obviously in
Speaker 3: Australia we have our own age verification conversations going on.
Speaker 3: So tell me about the state of play in the UK.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the new age verification requirements, they're all because
Speaker 2: of a new law that came into effect in July
Speaker 2: in the UK, which is called the Online Safety Act,
Speaker 2: and that act requires all adult sites to check the
Speaker 2: age of all UK users. So previously anyone was just
Speaker 2: able to visit these sites regardless of your age. There
Speaker 2: was kind of no checking system, just that anyone could
Speaker 2: go there. But this piece of legislation put the onus
Speaker 2: on the adult sites to ensure that only people above
Speaker 2: eighteen are accessing and watching their material. And the purpose
Speaker 2: of this, as I'm sure you can imagine, is to
Speaker 2: protect young people from viewing any harmful content that could
Speaker 2: be on these sides, and also making sure that they're
Speaker 2: only accessing age appropriate content.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you can't watch sexually explicit material if you're
Speaker 3: under eighteen in a movie. We have all kinds of
Speaker 3: classifications around that type of content elsewhere in media exactly.
Speaker 2: And this is all about making sure that there are
Speaker 2: those checks and balances in place to make sure that
Speaker 2: they can't view this material.
Speaker 1: Now, this was actually.
Speaker 2: Passed in the UK Parliament in twenty twenty three, okay,
Speaker 2: but the age checking measures didn't come into effect until
Speaker 2: July just passed.
Speaker 3: Okay, So what does the age verification actually involve? How
Speaker 3: does it work? Because again with such a conversation going
Speaker 3: on here in Australia about how age verification would be
Speaker 3: rolled out on social media. I think all of us
Speaker 3: are really interested in this technology.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the key question that everyone has. How
Speaker 2: do you prove someone's age?
Speaker 3: Yep?
Speaker 2: And a key part of this is that you can
Speaker 2: no longer just tick a box. So if the website
Speaker 2: says are you eighteen, you can't just say yes, I
Speaker 2: am and then proceed to the website. You actually have
Speaker 2: to verify your age. And I think what's interesting is,
Speaker 2: you know, obviously visiting a website isn't like going to
Speaker 2: a bottle store where someone is physically looking at your
Speaker 2: idea and they're looking at you. It's a very different process.
Speaker 3: So what when you say verification that you have to
Speaker 3: have your age verified in practice, what does that involve?
Speaker 2: So Offcom, which is the UK's communications regulator and they
Speaker 2: are the ones responsible for enforcing this law, they have
Speaker 2: given seven different options for what websites could do to
Speaker 2: ensure that they are checking the age. All right, I'll
Speaker 2: go through them because I think they are so interesting.
Speaker 2: The first one is facial age estimation. So this means
Speaker 2: just your phone looking at you through a cam and
Speaker 2: estimating how old they think you are based on that.
Speaker 3: Wow. First of all, I mean part of me feels
Speaker 3: like if I use that technology I would be offended. Yes,
Speaker 3: it deemed me old enough. But what's the difference between
Speaker 3: a seventeen year old face and an eighteen year old face?
Speaker 2: Great question, and that is one that only technology could answer.
Speaker 2: I don't quite have the answer, but yeah, obviously, you know,
Speaker 2: I think we do have questions about that.
Speaker 3: So what are some of the other options?
Speaker 2: So another one is open banking, so that involves giving
Speaker 2: permission for the websites to access information from your bank account,
Speaker 2: which would be on your phone, and that would be
Speaker 2: able to tell them whether or not you are over eighteen.
Speaker 3: So giving porn harb your bank details exactly.
Speaker 2: And another one which is quite similar to that, is
Speaker 2: giving pornhub your credit card details, even if you're not
Speaker 2: buying anything, because in the UK you need to be
Speaker 2: over eighteen in order to have a credit card, so
Speaker 2: if you give them those details, that means that you
Speaker 2: are over eighteen.
Speaker 3: So facial age estimation, these banking details, credit card age
Speaker 3: checks not perfect options. Lots of privacy concerns probably around those.
Speaker 3: So what else is on the list?
Speaker 2: Other ones on the list is digital identity services. So
Speaker 2: that's just like checking your digital IDs.
Speaker 1: That are on your phone.
Speaker 2: Or Another one which is similar to that is photo
Speaker 2: ID matching, So that's where you would provide a photo
Speaker 2: of your physical ID and also provide a photo of
Speaker 2: your face and they'd be able to check that. Other
Speaker 2: ones is email based age estimation. Now what I could
Speaker 2: gather from this is that you provide your email address
Speaker 2: and then they, using technology, will look at your banking
Speaker 2: or your utility providers and be able to look at
Speaker 2: that and again estimate your age based on that information.
Speaker 3: This is wild. I had no idea that these were
Speaker 3: the options, but there were so many ways to get
Speaker 3: around age verification it's so interesting.
Speaker 2: And then the last one is mobile network operator age checks.
Speaker 2: Now that would involve checking if your mobile phone number
Speaker 2: has age filters applied to it.
Speaker 3: Okay, So does that mean that some under eighteen year
Speaker 3: olds have certain restrictions on their phone coverage?
Speaker 1: Exactly?
Speaker 3: Okay, let's talk about porn Hub though. We know that
Speaker 3: they've seen a significant dip in the number of clicks
Speaker 3: and use on their website. So which age verification technology
Speaker 3: are they using?
Speaker 2: Well, they are providing options, so they there are a
Speaker 2: range of different options, which includes the ones that I've
Speaker 2: just mentioned, so it's not just one of them. What
Speaker 2: we do know is that they are now enforcing this
Speaker 2: and they are asking all users in the UK to
Speaker 2: now do one of those options. So it could be
Speaker 2: uploading identity documents, or scanning your face with a camera,
Speaker 2: or entering credit card details, any of them porn Harb
Speaker 2: is using.
Speaker 3: Okay, because I guess for the over eighteen users, if
Speaker 3: you are porn Harb, you probably want to provide enough
Speaker 3: options that it will be easy or fast enough for
Speaker 3: those users to get through the verification process, I would imagine,
Speaker 3: but also maintaining rigorous enough channels to be adhering to
Speaker 3: the law.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so interesting because I guess in the real world,
Speaker 2: if you're forty, then the age verification rules don't really
Speaker 2: apply to you. You don't actually really need to go
Speaker 2: through those processes unless you are being checked for your
Speaker 2: idea at the club, which is amazing for you. But
Speaker 2: what's interesting about this is that it will impact every
Speaker 2: single person. So you could be an eighty year old
Speaker 2: person and you are still needing to prove your age
Speaker 2: because of these laws.
Speaker 3: Okay, now I want to talk a little bit more
Speaker 3: about some of the privacy concerns we've touched on a
Speaker 3: little bit. What are the specific issues that are being discussed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that a lot of people do
Speaker 2: have these privacy concerns. And what is actually interesting is
Speaker 2: that Alo, which is porn Hub's parent company, they did
Speaker 2: raise a concern about privacy before these laws came into effect.
Speaker 2: So back in twenty twenty three, which again is when
Speaker 2: these laws first passed parliament in the UK, they put
Speaker 2: out a statement that said, any regulations that require hundreds
Speaker 2: of thousands of adult sites to collect significant amounts of
Speaker 2: highly sensitive personal information is putting user safety in jeopardy.
Speaker 3: Okay, and that's the statement from the company that owns
Speaker 3: porn Hub.
Speaker 2: Yes, that was two years ago, so I presume now
Speaker 2: they would be saying that all of the data is protected,
Speaker 2: but that was one of their key concerns when this
Speaker 2: legislation was first passed. Now, obviously it has now come
Speaker 2: into effect, and I mentioned Offcom before, which is the
Speaker 2: UK's communications regulator, and they have really assured users that
Speaker 2: data protection is of course already regulated and enforced in
Speaker 2: the UK, so this now isn't a new issue that
Speaker 2: they're needing to deal with.
Speaker 1: It is already regulated.
Speaker 2: They also said that proving someone's age is not a
Speaker 2: new thing, like I said before, so people obviously do
Speaker 2: this all the time in the offline world, and they're
Speaker 2: really encouraging people to just see it as the same
Speaker 2: thing here.
Speaker 3: All right, So we know where a low the pornhub
Speaker 3: parent company was on this issue a few years ago.
Speaker 3: Have we heard from them or any porn hub spokespeople
Speaker 3: more recently.
Speaker 2: Yes, porn Hub. A spokesperson for porn Hub did put
Speaker 2: out a statement and they basically said that this significant
Speaker 2: drop in traffic is the cost of compliance.
Speaker 1: Was basically what they said.
Speaker 2: Their direct quote is, we've seen in many jurisdictions around
Speaker 2: the world there is often a drop in traffic for
Speaker 2: compliance sites and an increase in traffic for non compliance sites.
Speaker 2: So that was in a statement to the Financial Times.
Speaker 2: I do think it's worth noting that in the UK VPNs,
Speaker 2: which basically changes what country your computer thinks you're in,
Speaker 2: they have drastically increased in traffic at the exact same
Speaker 2: time that porn Hub's traffic has dropped.
Speaker 3: Okay, so workarounds that people are negotiating. I think that's
Speaker 3: a really interesting statement from porn Hub, this idea that
Speaker 3: they are complying with the legislation, but that platforms or
Speaker 3: websites that aren't complying will, at least in the short
Speaker 3: term kind of benefit from a band like this.
Speaker 2: Well, I think, and that's for websites that are not
Speaker 2: as big as porn Hub. Yeah, and so perhaps aren't
Speaker 2: under as much pressure to comply.
Speaker 3: This forty seven percent drop in traffic to Pornhub, though,
Speaker 3: that is a pretty staggering figure. Do we know if
Speaker 3: all of those users are underage users?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. We don't know, but I think that
Speaker 2: you can presume. No, it probably isn't all minors that
Speaker 2: now make up that forty seven percent. So many people
Speaker 2: are saying that this drop suggests that a lot of
Speaker 2: users just aren't willing to go through the age verification process.
Speaker 2: Either it's just too much time, too much effort, or
Speaker 2: they could also be concerned.
Speaker 1: About their privacy, like we talked about before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so interesting, Billy, and I wonder if the
Speaker 3: raft of age verification options are something that we'll see
Speaker 3: rolled out here in Australia. There's been a little bit
Speaker 3: of contention around what technology will be the best technology
Speaker 3: to enforce our social media ban.
Speaker 2: Yes, so for anyone who missed it or who wants
Speaker 2: a reminder. In Australia last year we introduced this social
Speaker 2: media ban. It passed parliament last year, but it comes
Speaker 2: into effect at the end of this year. What's interesting
Speaker 2: is so that's for under sixteens, that's for social media sites,
Speaker 2: that's not for porn sites, and so it is a
Speaker 2: little bit different, but is similar between these two pieces
Speaker 2: of legislation is that the onus is on the companies. Yeah,
Speaker 2: now we don't yet know how the companies will enforce
Speaker 2: these age verifications. So I mentioned the measures that are
Speaker 2: happening in the UK, but we don't know if that
Speaker 2: will be the exact same in Australia.
Speaker 3: There are age verification trials that are ongoing at the
Speaker 3: moment to figure that out. But there were some reports
Speaker 3: a couple of months ago about flaws in some of
Speaker 3: the technologies that were being trialed. I remember an ABC
Speaker 3: report that had found some technologies had gotten the ages
Speaker 3: wrong of users, that teenage users were passing as twenty
Speaker 3: five year olds. So clearly it's not perfect. But this
Speaker 3: is an evolving technology and a space that is going
Speaker 3: to see a lot of investment and interest in the future.
Speaker 2: It's clear that there is a lot of movement in
Speaker 2: this area of trying to protect young people from potentially
Speaker 2: harmful content online.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Billy, thank you so much. Thank for bringing us
Speaker 3: such an interesting story and unpacking it in such a
Speaker 3: fascinating way. That's all for today's deep Dive. Thank you
Speaker 3: so much for listening. We will be back a little
Speaker 3: bit later on with your evening news headlines, but until then,
Speaker 3: have a great Monday.
Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda
Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl Country.
Speaker 2: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on
Speaker 2: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to
Speaker 2: all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.
Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,
Speaker 1: both past and present.