WEBVTT - Why PornHub’s traffic is down

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the Daily Art.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,

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<v Speaker 2>the eighteenth of August. I'm Billy Fitzimon's I'm Emma Gillespie.

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<v Speaker 2>Traffic to porn Hub in the UK has dropped by

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<v Speaker 2>forty seven percent since new age verification.

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<v Speaker 1>Laws were enforced.

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<v Speaker 2>It's all because of the UK's Online Safety Act, which

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<v Speaker 2>requires adult sites to check the age of.

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<v Speaker 1>All UK users. So how are they doing that?

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<v Speaker 3>Today? We are going to break down what these new

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<v Speaker 3>laws involve and their immediate impact on online behavior. That

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<v Speaker 3>first quick message from our sponsor, Billy. Let's start with

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<v Speaker 3>these new figures about changes in online traffic in the UK.

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<v Speaker 3>What exactly has happened to Pornhub?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean before we even get into that, we

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<v Speaker 2>Emma did have a conversation off Mike about whether or

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<v Speaker 2>not we actually need to explain what porn hub is.

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<v Speaker 2>I think most people would be familiar with it. If

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<v Speaker 2>you're not, It is the most popular pornography website in

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<v Speaker 2>the world. I actually looked it up and it is

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<v Speaker 2>in the top twenty most visited websites in the world.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>It's even above Netflix.

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<v Speaker 3>There you go. I was gonna say it's like YouTube

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<v Speaker 3>for porn, but maybe it's like Netflix for porn.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think the reason why it's actually so

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<v Speaker 2>popular is because it's free, or there is a free

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<v Speaker 2>version of it.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, the reason we are talking about it today is

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<v Speaker 2>because traffic to porn Hub in the UK dropped by

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<v Speaker 2>forty seven percent between the twenty fourth of July and

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<v Speaker 2>the eighth of August this year, So in less than

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<v Speaker 2>a month. That's according to data seen by the Financial

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<v Speaker 2>Times in the UK.

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<v Speaker 3>So a nearly fifty percent reduction in the number of

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<v Speaker 3>people or the number of visits to n Hub in.

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<v Speaker 1>Just a couple of weeks. Yes, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, the reason for that is because of new age

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<v Speaker 2>verification requirements that have come into effect in the UK.

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<v Speaker 3>Billy, this is so fascinating to me because obviously in

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<v Speaker 3>Australia we have our own age verification conversations going on.

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<v Speaker 3>So tell me about the state of play in the UK.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the new age verification requirements, they're all because

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<v Speaker 2>of a new law that came into effect in July

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<v Speaker 2>in the UK, which is called the Online Safety Act,

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<v Speaker 2>and that act requires all adult sites to check the

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<v Speaker 2>age of all UK users. So previously anyone was just

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<v Speaker 2>able to visit these sites regardless of your age. There

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<v Speaker 2>was kind of no checking system, just that anyone could

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<v Speaker 2>go there. But this piece of legislation put the onus

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<v Speaker 2>on the adult sites to ensure that only people above

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<v Speaker 2>eighteen are accessing and watching their material. And the purpose

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<v Speaker 2>of this, as I'm sure you can imagine, is to

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<v Speaker 2>protect young people from viewing any harmful content that could

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<v Speaker 2>be on these sides, and also making sure that they're

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<v Speaker 2>only accessing age appropriate content.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, you can't watch sexually explicit material if you're

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<v Speaker 3>under eighteen in a movie. We have all kinds of

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<v Speaker 3>classifications around that type of content elsewhere in media exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is all about making sure that there are

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<v Speaker 2>those checks and balances in place to make sure that

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<v Speaker 2>they can't view this material.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, this was actually.

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<v Speaker 2>Passed in the UK Parliament in twenty twenty three, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>but the age checking measures didn't come into effect until

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<v Speaker 2>July just passed.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, So what does the age verification actually involve? How

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<v Speaker 3>does it work? Because again with such a conversation going

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<v Speaker 3>on here in Australia about how age verification would be

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<v Speaker 3>rolled out on social media. I think all of us

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<v Speaker 3>are really interested in this technology.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is the key question that everyone has. How

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<v Speaker 2>do you prove someone's age?

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<v Speaker 3>Yep?

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<v Speaker 2>And a key part of this is that you can

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<v Speaker 2>no longer just tick a box. So if the website

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<v Speaker 2>says are you eighteen, you can't just say yes, I

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<v Speaker 2>am and then proceed to the website. You actually have

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<v Speaker 2>to verify your age. And I think what's interesting is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, obviously visiting a website isn't like going to

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<v Speaker 2>a bottle store where someone is physically looking at your

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<v Speaker 2>idea and they're looking at you. It's a very different process.

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<v Speaker 3>So what when you say verification that you have to

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<v Speaker 3>have your age verified in practice, what does that involve?

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<v Speaker 2>So Offcom, which is the UK's communications regulator and they

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<v Speaker 2>are the ones responsible for enforcing this law, they have

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<v Speaker 2>given seven different options for what websites could do to

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<v Speaker 2>ensure that they are checking the age. All right, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>go through them because I think they are so interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>The first one is facial age estimation. So this means

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<v Speaker 2>just your phone looking at you through a cam and

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<v Speaker 2>estimating how old they think you are based on that.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow. First of all, I mean part of me feels

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<v Speaker 3>like if I use that technology I would be offended. Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>it deemed me old enough. But what's the difference between

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<v Speaker 3>a seventeen year old face and an eighteen year old face?

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<v Speaker 2>Great question, and that is one that only technology could answer.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't quite have the answer, but yeah, obviously, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I think we do have questions about that.

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<v Speaker 3>So what are some of the other options?

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<v Speaker 2>So another one is open banking, so that involves giving

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<v Speaker 2>permission for the websites to access information from your bank account,

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<v Speaker 2>which would be on your phone, and that would be

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<v Speaker 2>able to tell them whether or not you are over eighteen.

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<v Speaker 3>So giving porn harb your bank details exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And another one which is quite similar to that, is

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<v Speaker 2>giving pornhub your credit card details, even if you're not

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<v Speaker 2>buying anything, because in the UK you need to be

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<v Speaker 2>over eighteen in order to have a credit card, so

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<v Speaker 2>if you give them those details, that means that you

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<v Speaker 2>are over eighteen.

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<v Speaker 3>So facial age estimation, these banking details, credit card age

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<v Speaker 3>checks not perfect options. Lots of privacy concerns probably around those.

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<v Speaker 3>So what else is on the list?

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<v Speaker 2>Other ones on the list is digital identity services. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's just like checking your digital IDs.

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<v Speaker 1>That are on your phone.

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<v Speaker 2>Or Another one which is similar to that is photo

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<v Speaker 2>ID matching, So that's where you would provide a photo

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<v Speaker 2>of your physical ID and also provide a photo of

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<v Speaker 2>your face and they'd be able to check that. Other

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<v Speaker 2>ones is email based age estimation. Now what I could

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<v Speaker 2>gather from this is that you provide your email address

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<v Speaker 2>and then they, using technology, will look at your banking

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<v Speaker 2>or your utility providers and be able to look at

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<v Speaker 2>that and again estimate your age based on that information.

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<v Speaker 3>This is wild. I had no idea that these were

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<v Speaker 3>the options, but there were so many ways to get

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<v Speaker 3>around age verification it's so interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the last one is mobile network operator age checks.

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<v Speaker 2>Now that would involve checking if your mobile phone number

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<v Speaker 2>has age filters applied to it.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, So does that mean that some under eighteen year

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<v Speaker 3>olds have certain restrictions on their phone coverage?

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly?

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, let's talk about porn Hub though. We know that

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<v Speaker 3>they've seen a significant dip in the number of clicks

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<v Speaker 3>and use on their website. So which age verification technology

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<v Speaker 3>are they using?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, they are providing options, so they there are a

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<v Speaker 2>range of different options, which includes the ones that I've

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<v Speaker 2>just mentioned, so it's not just one of them. What

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<v Speaker 2>we do know is that they are now enforcing this

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<v Speaker 2>and they are asking all users in the UK to

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<v Speaker 2>now do one of those options. So it could be

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<v Speaker 2>uploading identity documents, or scanning your face with a camera,

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<v Speaker 2>or entering credit card details, any of them porn Harb

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<v Speaker 2>is using.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, because I guess for the over eighteen users, if

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<v Speaker 3>you are porn Harb, you probably want to provide enough

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<v Speaker 3>options that it will be easy or fast enough for

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<v Speaker 3>those users to get through the verification process, I would imagine,

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<v Speaker 3>but also maintaining rigorous enough channels to be adhering to

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<v Speaker 3>the law.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's so interesting because I guess in the real world,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're forty, then the age verification rules don't really

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<v Speaker 2>apply to you. You don't actually really need to go

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<v Speaker 2>through those processes unless you are being checked for your

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<v Speaker 2>idea at the club, which is amazing for you. But

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<v Speaker 2>what's interesting about this is that it will impact every

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<v Speaker 2>single person. So you could be an eighty year old

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<v Speaker 2>person and you are still needing to prove your age

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<v Speaker 2>because of these laws.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, now I want to talk a little bit more

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<v Speaker 3>about some of the privacy concerns we've touched on a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit. What are the specific issues that are being discussed.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that a lot of people do

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<v Speaker 2>have these privacy concerns. And what is actually interesting is

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<v Speaker 2>that Alo, which is porn Hub's parent company, they did

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<v Speaker 2>raise a concern about privacy before these laws came into effect.

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<v Speaker 2>So back in twenty twenty three, which again is when

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<v Speaker 2>these laws first passed parliament in the UK, they put

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<v Speaker 2>out a statement that said, any regulations that require hundreds

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<v Speaker 2>of thousands of adult sites to collect significant amounts of

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<v Speaker 2>highly sensitive personal information is putting user safety in jeopardy.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, and that's the statement from the company that owns

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<v Speaker 3>porn Hub.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that was two years ago, so I presume now

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<v Speaker 2>they would be saying that all of the data is protected,

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<v Speaker 2>but that was one of their key concerns when this

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<v Speaker 2>legislation was first passed. Now, obviously it has now come

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<v Speaker 2>into effect, and I mentioned Offcom before, which is the

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<v Speaker 2>UK's communications regulator, and they have really assured users that

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<v Speaker 2>data protection is of course already regulated and enforced in

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<v Speaker 2>the UK, so this now isn't a new issue that

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<v Speaker 2>they're needing to deal with.

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<v Speaker 1>It is already regulated.

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<v Speaker 2>They also said that proving someone's age is not a

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<v Speaker 2>new thing, like I said before, so people obviously do

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<v Speaker 2>this all the time in the offline world, and they're

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<v Speaker 2>really encouraging people to just see it as the same

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<v Speaker 2>thing here.

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<v Speaker 3>All right, So we know where a low the pornhub

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<v Speaker 3>parent company was on this issue a few years ago.

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<v Speaker 3>Have we heard from them or any porn hub spokespeople

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<v Speaker 3>more recently.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, porn Hub. A spokesperson for porn Hub did put

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<v Speaker 2>out a statement and they basically said that this significant

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<v Speaker 2>drop in traffic is the cost of compliance.

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<v Speaker 1>Was basically what they said.

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<v Speaker 2>Their direct quote is, we've seen in many jurisdictions around

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<v Speaker 2>the world there is often a drop in traffic for

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<v Speaker 2>compliance sites and an increase in traffic for non compliance sites.

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<v Speaker 2>So that was in a statement to the Financial Times.

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<v Speaker 2>I do think it's worth noting that in the UK VPNs,

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<v Speaker 2>which basically changes what country your computer thinks you're in,

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<v Speaker 2>they have drastically increased in traffic at the exact same

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<v Speaker 2>time that porn Hub's traffic has dropped.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so workarounds that people are negotiating. I think that's

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<v Speaker 3>a really interesting statement from porn Hub, this idea that

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<v Speaker 3>they are complying with the legislation, but that platforms or

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<v Speaker 3>websites that aren't complying will, at least in the short

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<v Speaker 3>term kind of benefit from a band like this.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think, and that's for websites that are not

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<v Speaker 2>as big as porn Hub. Yeah, and so perhaps aren't

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<v Speaker 2>under as much pressure to comply.

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<v Speaker 3>This forty seven percent drop in traffic to Pornhub, though,

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<v Speaker 3>that is a pretty staggering figure. Do we know if

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<v Speaker 3>all of those users are underage users?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't. We don't know, but I think that

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<v Speaker 2>you can presume. No, it probably isn't all minors that

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<v Speaker 2>now make up that forty seven percent. So many people

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<v Speaker 2>are saying that this drop suggests that a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>users just aren't willing to go through the age verification process.

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<v Speaker 2>Either it's just too much time, too much effort, or

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<v Speaker 2>they could also be concerned.

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<v Speaker 1>About their privacy, like we talked about before.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's so interesting, Billy, and I wonder if the

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<v Speaker 3>raft of age verification options are something that we'll see

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<v Speaker 3>rolled out here in Australia. There's been a little bit

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<v Speaker 3>of contention around what technology will be the best technology

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<v Speaker 3>to enforce our social media ban.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, so for anyone who missed it or who wants

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<v Speaker 2>a reminder. In Australia last year we introduced this social

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<v Speaker 2>media ban. It passed parliament last year, but it comes

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<v Speaker 2>into effect at the end of this year. What's interesting

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<v Speaker 2>is so that's for under sixteens, that's for social media sites,

0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.400
<v Speaker 2>that's not for porn sites, and so it is a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit different, but is similar between these two pieces

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<v Speaker 2>of legislation is that the onus is on the companies. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>now we don't yet know how the companies will enforce

0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.440
<v Speaker 2>these age verifications. So I mentioned the measures that are

0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.200
<v Speaker 2>happening in the UK, but we don't know if that

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<v Speaker 2>will be the exact same in Australia.

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<v Speaker 3>There are age verification trials that are ongoing at the

0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.160
<v Speaker 3>moment to figure that out. But there were some reports

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<v Speaker 3>a couple of months ago about flaws in some of

0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.600
<v Speaker 3>the technologies that were being trialed. I remember an ABC

0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:35.080
<v Speaker 3>report that had found some technologies had gotten the ages

0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.839
<v Speaker 3>wrong of users, that teenage users were passing as twenty

0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.800
<v Speaker 3>five year olds. So clearly it's not perfect. But this

0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.240
<v Speaker 3>is an evolving technology and a space that is going

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<v Speaker 3>to see a lot of investment and interest in the future.

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<v Speaker 2>It's clear that there is a lot of movement in

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<v Speaker 2>this area of trying to protect young people from potentially

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<v Speaker 2>harmful content online.

0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.679
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, Billy, thank you so much. Thank for bringing us

0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.560
<v Speaker 3>such an interesting story and unpacking it in such a

0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.040
<v Speaker 3>fascinating way. That's all for today's deep Dive. Thank you

0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.680
<v Speaker 3>so much for listening. We will be back a little

0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.439
<v Speaker 3>bit later on with your evening news headlines, but until then,

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<v Speaker 3>have a great Monday.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.200
<v Speaker 1>Bunjelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl Country.

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<v Speaker 2>The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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<v Speaker 2>the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.440
<v Speaker 2>all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.

0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.680
<v Speaker 1>We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:37.000
<v Speaker 1>both past and present.