WEBVTT - Corruption In Queensland 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.960 For you, the listeners of Curtain the podcast, audible dot 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:08.080 com is offering a free audiobook download with a free 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.600 thirty day trial to give you the opportunity to check 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.480 out their service. For that free trial, you go to 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:22.160 www dot audibletrial dot com, forward slash Curtain the podcast 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.640 and that link will be on our website. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.320 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:32.760 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.400 It was absolute shambles to show you the truth, just 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:36.360 absolutely really. 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.880 Honored blood on his clothing the day after the alleged 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:39.440 A top. 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:41.199 A shallow mud bank and it fits through a river. 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:43.400 Basically, I think most of the people are used to 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:44.840 me are good people. 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.520 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:50.640 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.160 This is Kurtain, a podcast where we pull back the 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.720 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:00.520 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:01.720 Amy Maguire. 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.440 And I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:09.679 Prisoner Suppult Service. Our producer is Paul Watts. Music by 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:14.160 Clint Curtis and produced in collaboration with the Brisbane Indigenous 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:19.200 Media Association and a warning. This series contains the names 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:23.560 of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:24.800 some listeners. 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.039 Thank you for joining us for kurtin the podcast. If 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.679 you've been following regularly, you would know that we've been 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:36.120 airing this investigation for the past eight weeks. We've raised 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.880 a great deal of doubt about the guilt of Kevin Henry, 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:40.640 who has been in jail for a quarter of a 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:44.160 century over the murder of an Aboriginal woman named Linda 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.280 in September nine ninety one. Now, for the last few episodes, 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.520 we've been giving you a few details about the forensic 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:51.880 evidence in this case. 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.200 That evidence is currently in the process of being reviewed 0:01:56.280 --> 0:02:02.200 by an international forensic expertly be very important and so 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.440 as we told you last week, we can't rush these things. 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.200 But in the meantime we want to tell you a 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:13.320 little bit about the background to this case. If you're 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:17.080 not from Australia, and even if you're not from Queensland, 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:19.519 you may not have known what it was like for 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:21.919 people living there in nineteen ninety one. 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:25.040 When we tell you the details of this case, particularly 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.200 regarding the police. You need to know the context in 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.519 which this happened. It's vital to your understanding of this case. 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.800 We told you previously that Kevin Henry was picked up 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:37.960 the day Linda was found for public drunkenness. He was 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.920 then thrown in the watchhouse with two other men that day. 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.280 Now many blackfellows in Australia would know this was not 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:45.560 an unusual occurrence. 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:48.560 We told you about how Linda died in the same 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.720 year the Royal Commission into average or Deaths in Custody 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.440 was handed down. Her brother was one of the most 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.799 high profile cases investigated by the Commission at the time. 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:03.919 The Commission came down heavily on the criminalization of public drunkenness, 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:06.920 taking in mind the fact many of the men and 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.399 women who had died in custody had been locked up 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:13.200 for simply being intoxicated in public. 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.000 We also told you about how people at Tanuba House 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:18.720 would often use the place as a sanctuary to get 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.040 away from police. Around the same time, the local morning 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.840 Bulletin newspaper would report on several outrages involving over policing 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.519 in the town, particularly when a twelve year old boy 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.200 was locked up with adults and thrown in the watchhouse overnight. 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:34.240 It seems fair to say that Aboriginal mob at the time, 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.680 just like the current day, had a strange relationship with police, 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.320 and it wasn't just Aboriginal people. This tragedy occurred only 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.040 a few years after the Fitzgerald Inquiry was handed down, 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.640 when public attention on police corruption in Queensland was at 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.480 its highest point. But if you can imagine the wider 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.200 public were concerned about police misconduct, imagine how Aboriginal people 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:54.880 would have felt. 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.120 The aboriginality of both the alleged perpetrators and the victim 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:03.080 is vital to understanding this case. It is vital to 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:08.760 understanding what we've told you so far. The police investigation 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:13.240 into this case was deeply flawed. From the moment they 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:17.880 entered the crime scene, it was left unsecured for hours, 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.640 and from there the problems just continued to pile up. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:28.839 Many of the witnesses were interviewed either while intoxicated, without 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:34.320 legal representation, or both. Quite a number of the witnesses 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:38.320 were illiterate and were unable to read the statements they 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:44.440 had allegedly given. They were also giving those statements under 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:49.880 considerable duress. Many spoke about the pressures placed on them 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:55.880 to provide multiple statements before the trial commenced. We also 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.840 know that once the police had arrested Kevin Henry on 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.440 the fifth of September, by their own admission, they ceased 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:10.479 investigating the case any further. This is despite many issues 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:15.719 coming up. The forensic evidence hadn't come back yet, a 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:20.200 man allegedly confessed to his own solicitor who passed on 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.960 this information, and many more questions that were raised over 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:28.920 the coming months. There was also the deeply concerning issue 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:33.120 that not only were the three women charged with murder 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:38.080 on the same day, the fifth of September, as Kevin Henry, 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:42.600 they were charged under different circumstances. And how could one 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:46.760 murder take place in two different ways by two sets 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:47.360 of people. 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.840 But to understand why this might have occurred in the 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.599 police investigation and why it's perhaps not even surprising for 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.160 the time, you also have to understand Queensland at the time. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.320 Even a couple of years after the Fitzgerald and inquiry, 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.040 which led to convictions for several police officers, as well 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:08.680 as the charging of several Queensland politicians, these concerns still continued. 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.360 Now, leading up to the Fitzgerald Inquiry, there were two 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.960 journalists in particular whose work was vital in pushing for change. 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:22.279 One of those journalists was the Four Corners reporter Chris Masters, 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:27.520 and the other was The Career Male's Phil Dickie. Phil 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.560 would go on to win the Gold Walkley, the highest 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:32.680 honor in Australian journalism. 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.560 Now Phil Dickie lives in Switzerland. Martin spoke to him 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:38.640 earlier this week to give us a sense of what 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:40.840 it was like to live in Queensland at this time 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.839 and why police were the subject of so much mistrust. 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.760 Can you tell me a little bit about the series 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.640 of reports in the Career Male that helped spark the 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:52.919 Fitzgerald inquiry. 0:06:55.880 --> 0:07:00.760 Yes, of course. I was asked to investigate the ownership 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:05.719 of a sort of massage parlor at the top of 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:10.000 the valley, and I took some liberties with that assignment 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.640 and tried to find out who owned all of the 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:20.119 massage parlors, tried to establish what actual business was going 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:24.000 on there. It was clearly constitution which was clearly illegal. 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:29.520 And then I detailed the people who enrold in a 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:32.840 level of detail that hadn't been done before, and that 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.560 sort of led to four and one thing led to another, 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:40.680 and the detailing of the criminal figures and their links 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:46.000 to particular police led to fairly clear inferences of corruption. 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.680 Because of the legal system, we had to keep it 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:54.360 at the level of inferences that were together with the 0:07:54.960 --> 0:08:00.160 outstanding ABC four Corners report, it took the government to 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.960 a place where that they had to call him quote. 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.320 And at the time when you were writing these articles, 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:12.360 how widely known or suspected was it in the public 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.560 that this level of corruption was going on. 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:22.440 Probably only some impression in the public. I think amongst 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:28.600 journalists it was fairly well believed that the police were 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:37.560 quite corrupt, that despite numerous succession of stories over many 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:41.360 years that had never been cracked before. And I think 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:45.920 the difference was that before the media would get a 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:50.880 statement from someone alleging corruption, they'd repeat the statement, the government, 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.960 the police would deny it. The person who made the 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.760 complaint would find themselves out of a job or posted 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:02.000 to kindamother or something. That would be the end of it. 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:07.160 They'd be token efforts to set up police complaints, Tropian 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.680 aws and things like that, but these were, you know, 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:12.960 these were operated in such a way that they never 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.560 came to any result. I think the difference that I 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:22.040 made was I took it from an investigative point of view, 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:26.200 so it was actually Victoria Mail making the allegations, not 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:30.320 some vulnerable, you know, pissed off police officer or something 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:30.880 like that. 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:31.600 Yeah. 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:36.800 Absolutely, and clearly the work you did was so impactful 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.280 that you won the Gold Walkley. I wonder what sort 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:44.400 of pushback you had from the police and from political 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.840 circles about what you're exposing. 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:54.640 Quite quite a lot, from you know, lots of lots 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:59.319 of violence to a bullet hole and a related window. 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:09.080 That's probably not surprising my head later about efforts to 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:13.920 defame me or just annoy me and sort of say, okay, Dick, 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.440 he's obviously gay or something like that. That sort of 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:21.880 thing fairly typical, I think you. I think basically you 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:23.880 have to ignore it. Sometimes you have to sort of 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.679 play to someone, hey are you sittening me? And that 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:28.360 usually makes them back off a bit. 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:29.520 Yeah. 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:33.720 And was that part of the culture, the political culture 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.880 and police culture at the time in Queensland sort of widespread. 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.280 I think you've got to get beyond the police source 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.640 and look at Queensland overall, and I think probably the 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.800 best term of describing how Queensland has run at the 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.040 time was it a sort of a cony state. If 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:56.000 you were in good with the governing powers and or 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.600 the governing arrangements at all sorts of levels from the 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:03.520 state to the council, then you know, then you would 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.880 do well. And if you upset the apple cart, then 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:11.800 you know steps would often be taken to marginalize you 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:14.640 or get your decease and defess. 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.800 And what links did you find? I guess that you 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:23.360 could explain to the general public who may not be 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:27.840 aware at all of the Fitzgerald inquiry between police and 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:32.959 the absolute top level politicians and political circles in the state. 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:40.200 I think, very very early on sort of myself and 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.480 Chris Masters found ourselves operating not at the level of 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:47.240 you know, constables and detective sergeants, that we're operating at 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:52.520 the level of assistant commissioners and very senior police. And 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.200 then you've got obvious questions of you know, these people 0:11:55.280 --> 0:12:00.520 have had question marks over their careers, who's been promoting 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.960 them and so you've got a very direct link into 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:08.440 the political circles there. But we also we're operating in 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:17.320 a background of frequent allegations of strange dealings politically that 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:22.920 we're close to verging on corruption. So you know, it's 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.040 all part of the picture. I think in many ways, 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.719 and I've done a bit of work outside Australian now, 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.040 in many ways the police are the easy ones to 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:35.320 catch a corruption because they deal with with criminals and 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:38.600 criminals like the Big Note themselves, and you know, there's 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:43.800 always cross upon the streets, and there's a fairly high 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.760 level of interest in the media in the salacious aspects 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.680 of police work. So police are often the first to 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:55.280 get caught out in a system which is fairly corrupted through. 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:59.480 And through, and I mean through all the investigation work 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:03.120 you've done own, how would you say this culture of 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:07.800 corruption from the top down started and was allowed to 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:09.040 fester for so long. 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.360 Well, I did go into the history of it in 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.679 a lot of detail. I think you can go back 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:19.600 to colonial times and find you know, with the treatment 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:27.520 of aboriginals, the native police, the way temperate servements, gambling 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:33.080 in early prostitution were governed, you can find respecting I 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.079 think with the thread of corruption that was exposed in 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:40.120 the Fitzgerald inquiries, you've got a very clear link between 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.880 the sudden growth of an illegal economy in the Second 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:50.800 World War and the sort of the continuous grace of 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.040 corruption to the level of the joke and the political 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:59.800 corruption that Fitzgerald outlined. There were efforts, there was one, 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.040 never good effort to deal with it on the way through, 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.360 but that failed, and in part it failed, I think 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:11.439 because it concentrated on the monetary aspect of corruption and 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:16.920 not in terms of the corruption of police process. You know, 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.080 the constant verbaling to get quick convictions. Didn't wrote that. 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:28.120 I think there's a you have to tackle corruption as 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:32.160 endemic and serious you know when you find it, and 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:36.520 even then it's a very hard thing to route us. 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.000 And I'm not sure that Queen's Land succeeded. That had 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.960 an excellent opportunity based for seriald but I don't think 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:44.160 it's succerded on the throat. 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.320 Yeah, And I mean based on all the work you've 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.920 done and what you've seen take place since the inquiry, 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.080 what would you say or who were the big victims 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.320 in Queensland of the corruption? Was it the most vulnerable 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:00.600 people in society? 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:06.520 Look, I think we're all victims and you can clearly 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:12.600 outline some people who are particularly victimized and identifize one 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:17.120 of the most victimized groups was honest police. A lot 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:22.560 of laws that are hard to enforce and a sort 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:28.440 of more about enforcing morals than dealing with crime. You 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:34.920 have this classic effects all over the world that the 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:40.160 policing of those sorts of laws impacts on minorities or 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:48.600 people who who are outside the general stereotypes. And you're 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.920 saying that now, of course, with you know, migration law 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:55.920 around the world dealing with refugees, you know who is 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.680 impacted not the people who arrive on aeroplanes and other 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.200 states visus that the people who try and you know, 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:06.560 sort of swim or take leaky boats into across national borders. 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:10.440 So it's the most the most vulnerable who always suffer. 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.880 I think there was the same in Queensland that we 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:20.520 managed to verify with research about cannabis law enforcement, which is, 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.880 you know, the rich gets stoned and the poor get busted, right. 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:28.800 And I think in Australia you see all of the 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:36.840 numerous reports on indigenous enforcement, the way the way Indigenous 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:41.080 people are disproportionately represented in the criminal justice system and 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:46.760 in the jail, in the courts, you know more than 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.640 their more than their actual involvement in crime wise. 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:52.680 Yeah. 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.880 Absolutely. I think for those who do know some of 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:02.000 the Fitzgerald Inquiry and saw the full Horners report, they'd 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.359 know a lot about what happened in Brisbane and on 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.200 the Gold Coast. But what about regional areas? How much 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.200 did it affect regional Queensland. 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.959 Look, in some cases it was worse because you were 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:23.680 dealing with smaller market. The police and criminal partnerships were 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.399 more of a factor in. 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:28.680 Society. 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.280 They were closer links to local government. For instance, in 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:39.560 places like Cans and the Gold Coast, the corrupting influence 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.240 influences were much closer together and much clok sort of. 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.480 It wasn't as remote as George Street. It was in 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.879 a city hallum and the police station and the local 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.680 clubs and nightclubs and the pubs, and so it could 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.320 be more of a factor and you could help away 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:08.960 from the scrutiny of the biggest city institution, the newspapers 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:16.520 and journalists. You could get quite quite You could get 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.480 arrangements where people were really living in fear of their 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:23.760 lives and small communities because they had fallen outside the system. 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.439 Yeah, absolutely, but I did see. 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.040 That myself a bit in places like Mariba for instance. 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:35.119 Right, one thing we've discovered in our investigation of the 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:41.000 time and speaking to particularly the Aboriginal community in rock Hampton, 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.840 was a great level of fear of the police and 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:51.320 the authority. I wonder if you discovered anything about rock 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:55.720 Hampton in particular in your investigations. 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.680 The only thing I remember there was an abortive a 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.080 tea to buy one of the crime reps to set 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:09.600 up a gambling casino in rock Hampton, So apart from that, 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.800 I didn't go into too much detail there. 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:15.639 Right. 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:20.919 Another issue that the inquiry raised was the issue of 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:28.119 the way Aboriginal prisoners in particular were interrogated and the 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:32.680 issue of gratuitous concurrence where they would often just give 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:37.040 an answer most likely to please the questioner, and there 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.640 were a lot of issues raised around whether that led 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.600 to convictions. Was that something that you'd touched on in 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:45.480 your investigation? 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:48.400 If I could go. 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.639 A bit broader than that, You know, I've done a 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.879 lot of work with Indigenous people around the world now 0:19:55.760 --> 0:20:00.840 and you will find that that's a common made of 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:06.960 communication that that you know, there is this real desire 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:11.119 to please and relate, so you will be told things 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:17.040 that from a you know, from our perspective are quite 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:21.720 clearly untrue or unlikely that they're not you know, they're 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.080 not being said in that context, or if you ask 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:29.399 the question, you'll get an answer that he's meant to 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.280 please you, whether it actually resembles the actual state of 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:38.280 of what happened or what you're inquiring about. So you 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:41.360 know that happens now. It's a matter of cultural sensitivity. 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:45.640 Now a will conducted, will run police force, which Greenslin 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:51.440 did not have in those days, would have had specialists 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:56.600 who would know some of these subtleties and who would 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.240 you know, sort of allow and there'd be specific training. 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.000 I think, you know, I hope that sort of thing 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:08.320 happens now, but it's it's I think it was commonplace. 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.720 It was commonplace sometimes just because of this, you know, 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:14.800 quick and easy attitude to getting getting a conviction s 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:20.399 having someone through the court, and also because you know 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:27.600 it could work, and because you know, junior police follow 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.439 the example of more senior police. And if they're not 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:34.520 specifically instructed but this is a particular issue with a 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:38.160 particular population, then they don't take account of it court. 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:42.879 You know, there's also a role for courts to question 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:47.560 this too and to be aware of it. I think 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:51.200 you've got you've got a general failure of caring frequently 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:52.320 in Queensland. 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.760 Yeah, and just finally before we came on air, we spoke. 0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:01.480 Now you've lived away from us for around a decade 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:05.920 now and see seen the way other court systems operate. 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:08.879 I was just wondering if you could explain to the 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:13.920 listeners what you've observed, and mainly the positives and negatives 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:15.440 of the two systems. 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:21.640 I think you know, there is in theory a presumption 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:26.480 of innocence in the British judicial system that most of 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:31.320 the Anglo countries around the world have adopted. But there's 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:38.600 also elements of old medieval trial by combat, a resolution of. 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:40.240 The skips and. 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.359 Getting it at guilty or innocence, and if you don't, 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:51.760 you can't afford it, your marginalize then you don't get 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:55.240 the champion in the court and you can suffer thereby. 0:22:55.840 --> 0:23:01.400 I think in the in the alternative tradition of European systems, 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:06.080 the Code Napoleon system, you know, there's more of a 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:10.760 structure where the judiciary is involved from the start in 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:16.239 investigation and the obligation of parties before the court is 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:21.400 to assist in getting at the truth of the matter. Now, 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:24.399 both systems can be corrupted and you can get you 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:29.600 can get outcomes that are incorrect and less than desirable 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:33.120 in those systems, but you know they're they're the advantages 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.800 and drawbacks. The urwing thing in priensent i guess is 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:42.560 the Fitzgerald inquiry is and inquiries generally are thinks conducted 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:46.199 under the under the European type system. You're trying to 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.560 get a truth of the matter, and you uncover things 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:54.399 that would never come out in courts of law. You know, 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:59.800 there's there's more ways of ruling evidence and admissible and 0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:03.200 we're declining to take into account things it might seem 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:06.320 extraneous but are actually vital to explanation. 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:09.480 Thank you so much for that explanation and for your 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:11.119 expertise on this area. 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:14.720 Okay, Martain, we just heard from Phil Dickey, who we 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:17.520 told our listeners was the journalist to help spark the 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:21.879 Fitzgerald inquiry. What do you take from that? Do you 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:24.320 think it gives a good sense of what Queensland was 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:26.960 like maybe when Kevin was first arrested. 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:29.960 Well, I think it puts things in perspective. I think 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:34.280 we have to always remember what Phil said as we 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.399 talk about this case, and when we think about this case, 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:42.719 that the way Queensland was run, both politically and the 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:47.440 way police operated was not what most people are used 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:51.200 to nor understand. There was a high level of corruption, 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:57.159 there was no oversight, and there were huge issues with 0:24:57.280 --> 0:24:59.600 the way the place was run. And I think that 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:04.479 for most people looking at the case won't really appreciate that. 0:25:04.560 --> 0:25:07.040 And I think it's really important to keep it in mind. 0:25:07.160 --> 0:25:11.919 If it's Jerals Enquirer was handed down in the late eighties, 0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:16.320 so a few years before this happened. But do you 0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:19.280 get a sense that, particularly in regional Australia, it might 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:22.480 have still been sort of the It hadn't really been 0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:25.520 resolved at that time, not it hadn't had enough time 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:27.720 to change this sort of environment. 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:31.160 Yeah, certainly, I think we can take from what Phil 0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:35.680 said that he still has concerns that things haven't changed 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:39.760 even to this day. So certainly just a few years later, 0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:44.240 in a regional town like Rockhampton, the same police was 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:49.560 still working, the same lack of oversight still existed, and 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:54.199 the same tactics of operating was still in existence, and 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:57.560 I think that we have to question whether things have 0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:01.560 changed at all in this world. We still see the 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:05.119 exact same problems that were raised in the Fitzgerald Inquiry 0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:08.960 occurring to this day. So while many of the political 0:26:09.000 --> 0:26:12.600 issues may have been resolved, I don't think the policing. 0:26:12.200 --> 0:26:15.600 Issues were particularly I guess it explains maybe a lot 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:21.920 of the how if the wider Queensland viewed police that way, 0:26:22.240 --> 0:26:24.880 and in fact the whole nation viewed Queensland police that way, 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:29.040 imagine how Aboriginal people and the Aboriginal community in Rockampden 0:26:29.200 --> 0:26:32.679 must have viewed police at that time. It was obvious 0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:35.719 that there must have been tension between the two groups, 0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:36.400 do you think. 0:26:36.520 --> 0:26:38.760 Well, absolutely, and I think there was also a great 0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:43.000 level of distrust and fear. I think that's clear from 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:47.080 the report handed down that the way Queensland was run 0:26:47.400 --> 0:26:51.119 was a corrupt state. And any time a state is 0:26:51.200 --> 0:26:55.160