1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: I remember hearing this quote about stress being the place 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: between where you are and where you expect to be, 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: and that really resonated with me, and like, that's my life. Basically, 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: I'm here and I want to be over there, and 5 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: I don't know how to get there, and that's why 6 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm stressed. Stress isn't necessarily about just having a ton 7 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: of work to do. It's about not knowing how to 8 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: do it. 9 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 10 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 11 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, Doctor Amantha. I'm an organizational psychologist, 12 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 13 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my work date. Now, before I 14 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: get to introducing today's guest, I just wanted to do 15 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: a shout out to everyone that has been leaving such 16 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 2: lovely feedback for the podcast. If you are someone who 17 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: has been enjoying How I Work, then maybe just hit 18 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 2: the pause button and you might want to hop into 19 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, Or if you're listening to this podcast and 20 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: give How I Work a rating, you can do that 21 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: by clicking on the stars. Or you might even want 22 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 2: to write some words about what you think of the show. 23 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 2: I do read every review and they're just so wonderful. 24 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 2: Recording a podcast can be quite a solo activity, so 25 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: it's really lovely getting feedback. So thank you for everyone 26 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 2: that's done that, and thank you for everyone that does 27 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 2: choose to do that after listening to this episode. So 28 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: let's get on to my guest, who today is Jess 29 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:36,839 Speaker 2: hatsus So. In twenty thirteen, Jess founded Frank Body, which 30 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: six years later has become a twenty million dollar global 31 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: beauty brand which is distributed through massive retailers like Sephora 32 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: and Alta and is sold in one hundred and forty 33 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 2: one countries. Jess was named one of Forbes magazines thirty 34 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: under thirty I think she's a little bit over thirty 35 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: now and named Woman of the Year by Cosmopolitan in 36 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. Jess's role at Frank Body is now as 37 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: the chief marketing officer as well as Frank Body. Like 38 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: as if that's not enough, she also a few years 39 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: ago co founded a communications agency which is called Willow 40 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: and Blake, and so she splits her time between the 41 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 2: two businesses. I caught up with Jess at her inner 42 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: city Melbourne office. She's a very funky warehouse conversion kind 43 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: of a fair and I've got to say she was 44 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: pretty awesome. We cover so many things in this chat, 45 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: ranging from why she used to be scared of receiving 46 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: feedback She's done a big one eighty on that now, 47 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: how she transitioned from being a maker and for Jess, 48 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 2: this was in the form of a copywriter writing some 49 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: very amazing copy for Frank Body in the early days 50 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: to now being a manager as a CMO. And also 51 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: how she is now spending far less time on social 52 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 2: media and on her phone, which I find interesting. Givens 53 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: that Frank Body's success was largely due to its social 54 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: media strategy. I think it has nearly a million followers 55 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: on Instagram. So I just love this chat. I think 56 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 2: you will too. Jess is really amazing and so on 57 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: that note, over to Jess to hear about how she works. Jess, 58 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. 59 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: Hi, thank you for having me. 60 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,679 Speaker 2: So I've read that your high school career counselor said 61 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 2: that pursuing writing was a very bad idea. Can you 62 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: tell me about that? Oh? 63 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I am so amazed that you found that. Yes, 64 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: so I've been writing since I've was walking, basically like 65 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: I've always loved it, but it wasn't necessarily encouraged as 66 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: a vocation. And I remember, I think I was in 67 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: U nine or year ten and we had to do 68 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: a project and what we wanted to do with our 69 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: lives and what career we're planning on pursuing. I went 70 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: to my career's counselor and I said, you know, I 71 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: want to be a writer. I'm not quite sure in 72 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: what capacity, but I love this. And she just looked 73 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: at me and she was like, therere no careers in this, 74 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: Like do you making a bad decision? It's a dime 75 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: a dozen, like just don't even bother And I walked 76 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: out of their heartbroken. I think she actually told me 77 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: to shadow her son who was working in the army instead. 78 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: It was a strange conversation. I came away from it. 79 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: I was like, I was so deflated, and it really 80 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: threw me for a look, like quite drastically. To be honest, 81 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: I actually, you know, I went through a bit of 82 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: a crisis in terms of not being sure about what 83 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: I should do. I changed my subjects that I was studying. 84 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: I changed my focus at university, like had a huge 85 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: impact on my life over the next couple of years. 86 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: And I'm lucky that I found my way back to 87 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: it just because I kept practicing my writing as like 88 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: a personal love. But yeah, it's I think being flippant 89 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: about advice and commentary. I don't think people realize how 90 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: damaging it can be. And yeah, so it's something I 91 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 1: actually really try and keep a lid on now and 92 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: not just give like blanket statements about what people should 93 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: do if I'm not an expert in it. 94 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good approach. Gosh, so you said though, 95 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: that you kept practicing your writing. What did that look 96 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: like for you? Practicing writing? 97 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: Oh, it's just scribbling A very random thought that came 98 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: into my head. I when I was at school, I 99 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: found myself looking for ways to practice creative writing. So 100 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: we had an English assignment that was I can't even 101 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: remember what the topic was. It was just writing a 102 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: poetry and so I turned it into like political satire. 103 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: And then I kept doing that through university, and I 104 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: would deliberately put myself out of my comfort zone in 105 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: creative writing courses with people that I thought were really 106 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: brilliant writers and I was the worst writer in the room, 107 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: so that, I guess helped me home my craft a 108 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: little bit. Say, when I was about twenty twenty one, 109 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: this was the era of blogging becoming a thing, you know. 110 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: Nearly fifteen years ago I started a blog. It was 111 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: all about music because that was my other passion. Music's 112 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: always been a really big part of my life. And 113 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: that sort of actually left to me to get my 114 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: first job, which was as a copywriter, so I dropped 115 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: out of my master's and pursued that. But yeah, it 116 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: was just everything. Like I would write poetry, I would 117 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: write letters, I would write stories. 118 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 2: And now, like I guess, in terms of Frank Body 119 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: in the early days, I mean, one of the things 120 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 2: that most the most distinctive about the brand is the copy, 121 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 2: the writing and the tone of voice that Frank has. 122 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 2: How involved were you in those very early years. 123 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was our baby, so myself and Bri and 124 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: Erica at the time, we've got Willa and Blake, which 125 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: is our branding agency, but originated as a copywriting and 126 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,119 Speaker 1: tone of voice agency. So writing that kind of stuff 127 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: was our bread and butter. And when we were looking 128 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: at ideas around Frank Body, I remember Steve and Alex 129 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: were thinking about calling the brand Piccolo, and I'm like, oh, 130 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: I don't really know what that means, like what's the 131 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: idea behind it? And for us, it was really about 132 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: cutting through a lot of the bs in the industry. 133 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: It was all very clinical, very corporate, talking at the consumer, 134 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: and we knew we were going to be playing in 135 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: social so having an actual social element to the voice 136 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,679 Speaker 1: was really important. And for us it was about taking 137 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: a risk and just doing something a little bit bold 138 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: and a little bit different. So we were writing everything. 139 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: Like every piece of copy you saw that come out 140 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: it came out of the brand was written by myself, 141 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: bri or Are. 142 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: Wow. 143 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: It was very hard to let go when we first 144 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: handed over the reins to our first copywriting and social hires, 145 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: and we were, oh my god, poor things like micromanaging 146 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: the hell out of it. And I'd say, I. 147 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: Could imagine, do you write a lot of the copy 148 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 2: for the brand nowadays? 149 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: Not as much. I think as you start to grow 150 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: your business, you move further and further away from those 151 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: more day to day tasks, and I think your trade 152 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: I spent a lot more time of a lot more 153 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: of my time planning, strategizing, managing people. But when I 154 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: have an idea, I do really like to get in 155 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: there and still be able to write. 156 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 2: I want to know, like back in those early days 157 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: where you were writing a lot of the copy for 158 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: the brand, something I find myself in my own writing. 159 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: Write for various publications and some have a more kind 160 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: of professional, serious tone and others are more conversational. And 161 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: I'm very aware of my own process in terms of 162 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: getting into the tone of voice that I meant to 163 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: be writing in. And I'm wondering, how did that work 164 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: for you? Given Frank has such a distinctive voice. 165 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: Frank, strangely enough, was very easy to get into the 166 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: voice off because it was always like in a unspoken 167 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: sometimes not PC things that go on inside your head. 168 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: You're just allowing them to blurt out onto the page. 169 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: It was a bit of a like no holdspar approach 170 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: to copy, so there were there weren't really rules, and 171 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: when there's no rules, you kind of just go for 172 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: and the words flow out of you. But with other 173 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: clients at will arm Blake, it's not necessarily that easy. 174 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: And even know this, like when you're chopping and changing 175 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: between so many different tones. It's really easy to let 176 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: one carry over into the other and to recognize when 177 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: you're just writing as yourself and like this sounds like Jess, 178 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: this doesn't sound like my client has you to get 179 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: that out of your system. I find music is a 180 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: really helpful way to get into the right headspace. Helps 181 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 1: me embody the person that I'm thinking of when I'm 182 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: creating something like who's the reader? What is it that 183 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: they like? And I find that it's like a really 184 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: tangible way for me to actually get into the right mood. 185 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, So what sort of music would you listen 186 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: to get in the Frank mood? 187 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: Ah? Frank like anything with dirty lyrics, I guess, Yeah, Yeah, 188 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: frank is like a little bit more commercial and hip hoppy. 189 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: And then I'll be working on something quite serious and 190 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: I'll play a lot of classical music. And then if 191 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: I'm trying to embody someone twenty years younger than me, 192 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: I basically can't spotify and look at gen z target 193 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: their playlists and like, what the hell do these kids 194 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: listen to? Put this on? Yeah, and a lot of 195 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: our team do exactly the same thing. They've really picked 196 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: up on that behavior. 197 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 2: Oh, Wow. I love that. I've I've definitely like I've 198 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 2: heard guests talk about listening to music and listening to 199 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 2: songs on repeat get into the focus zone. But I've 200 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: never come across that before, listening to different songs to 201 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 2: get into different tones of boys. I think that's that's 202 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: really cool. I think I'm going to try that actually 203 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: into weeks. I like that. Now. I want to come 204 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: back to what you were saying about how I guess 205 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 2: the journey of any business founder that grows into employing 206 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: stuff and I think you've got a team of about 207 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 2: thirty at Frank and about five at Willowe Blake. That's 208 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 2: about right. Is that that kind of comes different times 209 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: in the journey where you have to delegate and I 210 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 2: guess do less of the maker stuff, which is in 211 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: your case largely writing, I would imagine, and doing more 212 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: of the manager stuff. I'm wondering, how how do you 213 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: know when it's time to delegate something that you've been 214 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: hanging on too. 215 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: I struggled with delegation for a really long time. I'm 216 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: naturally control freak, and I have a really hard time 217 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: trusting that people will do something in the way that 218 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: I see fit, which is a really trait of a 219 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: leader and something I've had to work on really quite 220 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: a lot over the last few years. I think it 221 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: starts with hiring people that you trust, and as we've 222 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: grown over the last ten years, we've become a lot 223 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: better at looking for certain qualities within our team members 224 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: and realizing that I can't do it all, and so 225 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: sometimes I guess conceding control and allowing someone else to 226 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: take over a project is the best thing that you 227 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: can do for it. And it just took me a 228 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: long time to realize that being really clear on my 229 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: expectations with people was another key thing to allowing me 230 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: to delegate. Sometimes I realized that the sault was in 231 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: my briefing process and the ideas were up in my 232 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: head and I wasn't clearly articulating that to people, and 233 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: then I was disappointed when I got something back that 234 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: didn't meet my expectations. Now, knowing when to delegate is 235 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: really just about knowing what my job is and what 236 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: their job is. And my job is no longer to 237 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: be the maker. My job is to be the coach 238 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: and to allow other people. 239 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: To make really good things. 240 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: And unless I have a what I think is maybe 241 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: an awesome idea and I want to step in, but 242 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: I'm not going to like roadblock people or bottleneck protects. 243 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: Then that it's made the decision for me, it's like 244 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: my job is now this, their job is that the 245 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: decisions made? Yeah yeah, but still conten years to get 246 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: there before it was like mine, Yeah. 247 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 2: Gosh, yeah, I personally have. I found delegation very hard 248 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 2: when I started to delegate, but it's funny, something clicked 249 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: for me, and then, you know, I think, like absolutely 250 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 2: hiring good people, you know, is half the challenge, I think. 251 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: But then I found something clicked and then it just 252 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: became super easy to delegate. But then I know for me, 253 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: my journey in recent like in the last few months, 254 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: I recently stepped down as SEEO of inventing him and 255 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: now I'm a full time maker. I'm wondering, how have 256 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: you gone about I guess, finding joy in what is 257 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: something completely different like managing people and leading a business, Like, 258 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 2: how how have you gone about, I guess, finding the 259 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: joy in that compared to where you started. 260 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: It's a good question, and I think the honest answer 261 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: is that in times I haven't found joy in it. 262 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 1: I lived my life in spreadsheets, which I did, you know, 263 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: any writers that are listening, Oh, that's not what we 264 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: want to be doing. So I found it really difficult, 265 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: and I think I found it difficult because I was 266 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: all of a sudden in a job that I wasn't 267 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: qualified to do. I took on the role of CMO. 268 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: It's a big job in a growing company with forty 269 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: employees and you know, stayholdered all over the world, and 270 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: I was really out of my depths and trying to 271 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: do it that It was that bit going from being 272 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: really good at something to being really shit at something, 273 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: and like trying to close that gap. That was what 274 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: I struggled with. So now many years have passed and 275 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: taking a lot of joy in what I do comes 276 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: naturally because people to make anything with Frank body, the 277 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: business still needs to exist, and so my job and 278 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: the job of the rest of the founders is to 279 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: make sure that there's a business for people who come 280 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: to every day and do really great work. It was 281 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: just really reconciling that difference, and then I had to 282 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: do a lot of work in terms of understanding what 283 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: my shortcomings were. And I remember hearing this quote about 284 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: stress being the place between where you are and where 285 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: you expect to be, and that really resonated with me. 286 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: I'm like, that's my life. Basically, I'm here and I 287 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: want to be over there, and I don't know how 288 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: to get there, and that's why I'm stressed. Stress isn't 289 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: necessarily about just having a ton of work to do. 290 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: It's about not knowing how to do it. And I 291 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: had to do a lot of inward reflection and then 292 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: a lot of like critical work on myself and probably 293 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: like a lot of creatives and younger ones at the time, 294 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: we really suck taking critical feedback until we get older. 295 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: So it was like, because your ego is so attached 296 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: to your work. So it was a big journey for 297 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: me in terms of I guess learning to find the 298 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: joy and loving what I do. 299 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: What were some of the critical moments, like some of 300 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 2: the things that fundamentally changed your style or the way 301 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: that you are now as a manager or leader. 302 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: That's a great question. I've learned that asking for feedback 303 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: is really important, and I used to be really scared 304 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: of feedback. Also, all through my life, I was like 305 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: the kid that never wanted to get in trouble. I 306 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: was the straight a student I never did anything wrong 307 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: and that was my reward system and like, oh, you're so, 308 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: You're such a good girl, you always getting good grades, 309 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: and so I was like, well, that's what I need 310 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: to do for my entire life, like just be good, 311 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: never do anything bad. So I wasn't used to having 312 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: to receive negative feedback because I've never really had it, 313 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: and so grow it, you know, when you take your 314 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: first steps out and your career stuff stuff up all 315 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: the time, and even at university it was such a 316 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: different environment to high school, and I struggled with that. 317 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: I just hadn't it just hadn't been part of my 318 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: life before. So over the course of many, many years, 319 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: I really learned that feedback is actually really important to 320 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: be able to grow and become better and asking for 321 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: it and being okay with the fact that knowing it's 322 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: not a criticism of you as a person. It's really 323 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: just like you are, not your work. And that was 324 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: a big lesson I had to learn. And so that 325 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: helps me do my job better, It helps me manage 326 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: people better. I'm just so crazy reader and podcast listener 327 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: as well, like a sponge trying to absorb information. 328 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: But what in your like what books and also podcasts 329 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: like have had the biggest impact on your thinking as 330 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: a leader. 331 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: That's a good question. I think it's changed a lot 332 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: over time. So my journey I think began with Tim 333 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: Perris like Toys Ago, Yeah, and we all read that 334 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: and that was what really led us to wanting to 335 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: create product based business. We're like four hours a week. 336 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: That's the ideal you lied to me. 337 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: I I. 338 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: Love a lot of the Harvard Business Review information a 339 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: because it's based in a lot of really great academic theory, 340 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: but it's short and bite size, so I really enjoy 341 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: That's what I love about podcasts too, because I can multitask, 342 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: and I'm sometimes I'm like, is that a good thing 343 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: that I always need to try and do several things 344 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: at ones? Can't I just drive? Can't I just cook? 345 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: Can't I just walk? So I listen to things that 346 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: are a little bit outside my wheelhouse. I love science 347 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: and like medical podcasts because it gives me an opportunity 348 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: to flex a different brain muscle. 349 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Any favorite ones that you've got at 350 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 2: the moment going on? Ah? 351 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually I don't know what genre it falls into. 352 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: By I love Dave Asbury's Bulletproof podcasts because I find 353 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: the information on there so interesting relevant to my everyday life, 354 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: but they're really pushing something in their field. So that's 355 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: when I listened to a lot, and then my husband 356 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: has to listen to me rand about it. I guess 357 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: what I liked today. 358 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I went through a stage of listening to his podcast. 359 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: I went through a stage of doing Bulletproof coffee actually, 360 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 2: but then gave that up after a little while. And 361 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 2: so like getting back to feedback. So feedback for you 362 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 2: was something that I guess you did take personally because 363 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: it was like you're doing something wrong and it's not 364 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 2: something that you were kind of used to experiencing when 365 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 2: you were growing up. Was there a moment where it 366 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 2: kind of clicked for you that it's like, actually, feedback 367 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: is the way to get better stuff. 368 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: I can't pinpoint a particular moment, but I know that 369 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: it really occurred around three to four years ago when 370 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: myself and Brie, my other business partner, decided together that 371 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: we wanted to do three six year reviews and we'd 372 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: never done them before and we felt we actually started 373 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: working with a business coach, and that's probably what led 374 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: to it because we were we'd identified we were struggling 375 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: as leaders, like we could manage people where I think 376 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: there's a really big difference in terms of like setting 377 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: that leadership, understanding my leadership style, understanding my own weaknesses 378 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: and vulnerabilities. So working with him, we worked with him 379 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: for six or twelve months. That was great in terms 380 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: of just learning how to give ourselves and each other feedback. 381 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: There's a lot of strange dynamics in our business. I mean, 382 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: we're best friends, so where you separate giving feedback on 383 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: work to where the personal relationship comes in. It was 384 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,239 Speaker 1: all a little bit incestuous. So you had to learn 385 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: how to do that for ourselves and with each other 386 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: and then do that three sixty review with our team. 387 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: And I remember the first time I read it, I 388 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 1: was petrified to open that if we did it by 389 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: email and anonymous so that our team could feel comfortable, 390 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: I was so scared. I'm like, what are they going 391 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: to say about me? Like what is it? And I 392 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: read it and I was like, ah, cool, that's fine, 393 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: that's fair. I recognize that in myself too. And it 394 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: wasn't this like holy hell moment that I thought it 395 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: might be so that's probably when yeah, everything's less shit 396 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: than we think it's going to be. 397 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 2: It's a good motto for life, really, isn't it. I'm 398 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: curious about like working with your best friend and then 399 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 2: the other two founders are also close friends, and Freeze 400 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,959 Speaker 2: married to one of them, and I very curious as 401 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 2: to that dynamic. I'm part of this. It's kind of 402 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: like a women who are founders CEOs kind of peer 403 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: mentoring group. And a few of the women started businesses 404 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 2: with their husbands, which I always thought would be an 405 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: interesting dynamic, like aside from Invado who was on the 406 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 2: podcast a few weeks ago, Okay Morris from Adoor Beauty 407 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: you'd probably know, and a few others. And I've always 408 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: been a sole director in my business, which at times 409 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 2: is incredibly lonely. And I'm curious for you, how does 410 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 2: that dynamic work and what perhaps you learn from the 411 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: business coach around navigating difficult conversations, particularly when it's your 412 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 2: best friends. So much is at stake. 413 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, it continues to be challenging, but it has a 414 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: lot of It has a lot of pros and cons. 415 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: So the pros are that no matter how much were 416 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: you can drive each other nuts. It's got a family 417 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: like dynamic to it, so at the end of the day, 418 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: you know there's always someone there who's got your back, 419 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: which is really beautiful and might not necessarily happen if 420 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: weren't the friendships involved. The con is that for a 421 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: long time, I think we all associated feedback with like 422 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: personal criticism, and because I think speaking out a turn. 423 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: But I believe each of the founders went through that 424 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: same journey that I went through, you know, moved from running, 425 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: you know, being a jack of all trades doing whatever 426 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: we could as a scrappy startup. Prior to that, everybody 427 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: had a trade that they were good at, to moving 428 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: into CEO, COO, CMO roles, Like we became a junior 429 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,239 Speaker 1: C suite with no experience doing that. So everyone's just 430 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: having an identity crisis, and I think that that really 431 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: impacted our ability to give feedback to each other because 432 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: everybody was so insecure about whether they were or were 433 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: not doing a good job, and they were. The stakes 434 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: were high, Like the business grew really quickly at the start, 435 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: and then the expectation was that you just continue that 436 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: exponential level of growth forever, Like that's impossible, Yes, and 437 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, we took on investors and even then the 438 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: pressure became higher and like they're fantastic strategic partner, but 439 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: we've still got, you know, budgets and targets that we 440 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: need to hear. And I think we went through a 441 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: phase where we didn't come together as a founding group enough. 442 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: And I think now after having some of those really 443 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: difficult conversations, there's a little bit more of a camaraderie there, 444 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: and learning how to support each other and like telling 445 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: each other if we're feeling vulnerable about specific things, which 446 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: I don't think happened earlier because we felt like we 447 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: just had to have our shit together all the time. 448 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 2: Really, so you tell each other if you're feeling vulnerable 449 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: or overs or scared. Yeah, how does that work? 450 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: I think some of us might do it more than others. 451 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: It's just come a little bit more naturally. But I 452 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: think now we've worked together for so long and we 453 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: have such close personal relationships, we can tell too. Like 454 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: I can look at Alex Steve Orbrie and I know 455 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: they can look at me, and I can tell if 456 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: they either feel great about what they're doing or if 457 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: they feel worried. And so if you sense that, well, 458 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: that's just using your empathy. So then be a better 459 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: person to that human. See what you can do to 460 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: help ask them if they're okay. And sometimes people just 461 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: need to be asked because they don't want to, I 462 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: guess impose and dump their problems on you. But if 463 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: you give them an opportunity to offload, and yeah, I 464 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: think it's like it's just a lot of us just 465 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: common sentence really, but like honing all of our empathic 466 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: skills was a big one. 467 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, what about difficult conversations like if say Brie has 468 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: done something that you completely disagree with or that offended you, 469 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: or that hurt you or something like that, do you 470 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 2: have a particular approach or a framework that you use 471 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 2: to kind of bringing that up. 472 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: Difficult conversations are an interesting one because I don't have 473 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: a framework. I think I use my better judgment to 474 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: determine if I'm being reactive or not. I've worked with 475 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 1: some people in the past who had a belief that 476 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: they should just say whatever comes to the mind and that, 477 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: you know, in the name of giving you feedback, And 478 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: I think, no, you're actually just being a bit of 479 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: an asshole. That's being rude, like we can. Sometimes people 480 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: don't mean to do things like and that's just humans. 481 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: We make mistakes. So if I think that there's a 482 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: lesson to be learned, or if it's a behavior that 483 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: I think might be repeated, then I would just sit 484 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: down with Breeze, Steve buff Any of my team and 485 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: just let them know. I think having those conversations in 486 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: person is so much better. Anything written down comes across 487 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: as passive, aggressive and rude, and then if it's not, 488 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: I think it's just about like, am I going to 489 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: I don't like confrontations, So for me, I'm like, oh fuck, okay, 490 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: do I want to say something? Do I not want 491 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: to say anything? Am I going to make it worse? 492 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: Am I going to say something? And then just sit 493 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: there worried until they reply? So sometimes I just choose 494 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: to let it go because and then I'm like, wake 495 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,959 Speaker 1: up the next day, I'm like, I'm so glad I 496 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: just didn't bother saying anything about that. And I'm assuming 497 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: they may that same choice of me, because I will 498 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: make mistakes all the time. 499 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's nice sort of like just taking 500 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 2: that moment to step back and reflect rather than kind 501 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: of just reactive, Yeah. 502 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: Which I used to do. I used to be really reactive. 503 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 504 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: Really When did that change the Mediterranean in me? When 505 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: I realized that it wasn't productive. When I worked with 506 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: a person that was very reactive and I found that 507 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: it wasn't moving us towards what they thought the end 508 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: goal was, which was resolving something, it was actually moving 509 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: people further away from it. And I thought, I don't 510 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: want to behave like that. I want to give people 511 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt because I think that most 512 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: times they deserve it. 513 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: That's interesting. Was there like a particular time with this 514 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 2: person where they were very reactive and it just everything 515 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: just kind of went sound. 516 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: It was more when they explained why they thought they 517 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: had the right to constantly judge and criticize what other 518 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: people doing in the name of like, well, I'm just 519 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: being honest and just providing feedback, and I'm like, oh, 520 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: you have so little self awareness. That was the moment 521 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: I realized and like, I don't want to be like that, 522 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: like when it's really necessary and I think it will 523 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: help both people or give feedback and like I give 524 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: feedback to my team all the time, but sometimes you 525 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: just have to let things go. People are having a 526 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: bad day or a bad week or a bad month, 527 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: or they're stressed, or they're worried or you know, like 528 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: you just we don't need to workshop everything. 529 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very fair. I've heard you describe yourself as shy. 530 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: Is that sort of still something that you would use 531 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: to I guess to describe Yeah, And that struck me 532 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 2: as interesting because you're like part of what you do. 533 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 2: Obviously you're running a communications agency, but you're also in 534 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: the beauty industry. For frank, like from the outsider, I'm 535 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: so not even remotely involved in the beauty industry, but 536 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 2: I imagine that to just look, it's all very glamorous 537 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: and loud and full of these confident women who look amazing. 538 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 2: How does that go like being you know, more shy 539 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: in this industry that seems so out there, Like what 540 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 2: is that like an event or you know, being in 541 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 2: this kind of I don't know. 542 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a classic introvert, which is different to being shy. 543 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: But I need to be by myself. That's how I recharge, 544 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: and as a writer, I can so clearly articulate my 545 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: thoughts through my fingers and then someone will ask me 546 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: a question in real life and I'm like, oh, I 547 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: don't know, like potatoes, what was the answer? And I 548 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: found that disconnect between the written version of myself and 549 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: the verbal version of myself really frustrating. So I'm like, oh, 550 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: I'm so much smarter when I have done to think 551 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: and write it down. Our industry surprisingly is full of 552 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: shy introverts. Yeah, everyone I've met, and especially like people 553 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: in the influencer space. When we work with those women, 554 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 1: their online persona versus their real lifeline are so different, 555 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: and they yeah, And I think it's the same theory 556 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: that translates to like the visual representation of themselves online 557 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: and then in real life when you have to think 558 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: on your feet and surrounded by a group of maybe 559 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: you know well to do or intimidating of successful people, 560 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: like we're all exactly the same. We're all constantly criticizing ourselves, 561 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: thinking that we're not good enough. So I wasn't actually 562 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: as alone as you think I might be in that 563 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: shy little bubble. And I've just had to learn, I think, 564 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: to bring energy to things that need them. So I 565 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: used to like, if I was doing this podcast recording 566 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: with you five years ago, I would have been a 567 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: nervous wrect for forty eight hours leading up to it 568 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: the time Bo's getting shorter, Like I only woke up 569 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: at four this is learning. I was like, oh my god, 570 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: we'll do this podcast with this amazing woman, and what 571 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: am I gonna say? 572 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: Really pretty nervous like coming into today. 573 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: I wasn't necessarily nervous. Nervous is probably the wrong word, 574 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: but it was on my mind, like it was in 575 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: the back of my mind, maybe because I get worried 576 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: that I could be on a podcast and not provide 577 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: value to people. I'm like, I don't want to be 578 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: I think I'm trying to make sure you keep your 579 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: ego and check is like a big part of my life. 580 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: I don't want to come on here and just blab away, 581 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: which you end up doing because people ask questions and 582 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,719 Speaker 1: you have to talk. Like you get to the end 583 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: of it, might don't say anything actually useful for people 584 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: listening to this, or are they going to be like 585 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: that Jess Hat's this is a real dickens the last talk. 586 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: So that's maybe in the back of my head a 587 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: little bit sometimes. 588 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 2: And how do you manage those nerves? 589 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm fine once I get into the situation like if 590 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: I'm ever doing public speaking or media appointments, my heart 591 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: will start to race before I'm about to go on 592 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: stage or before I do it. And then once I'm 593 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: in there and I realize, I'm just talking about life 594 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: and things that I know. When my personal experience, I'm 595 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: generally okay, deep breathing, Yeah, anti anxiety remedy from my 596 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: natural about Yeah, any good ones. Yeah, her barrio in Windsor, 597 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: her Barrio in Windsor, it is the best clinic. Go 598 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,959 Speaker 1: see Valley and her husband there. If you are an 599 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: anxiety baby like me. 600 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: All right, good. Notice a couple of things I want 601 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: to dig into. So, like you were saying, it's easier 602 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: to express yourself in the written word rather than the 603 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: spoken word, which you know, I guess is a commonality 604 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 2: you know amongst writers everywhere. How have you closed that gap? 605 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 2: You know, because you are like a very public face 606 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 2: of the Frank brand. So have you found strategies to 607 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: make it easier to say things rather than write things 608 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: when expressing yourself? 609 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: I think it's about saying what's true to me. I 610 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: noticed some people can tend to repeat the same catchphrases, 611 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: or they repeat things that they hear other people say, 612 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: and then it becomes disingenuine if you ask them to 613 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: explain it and be able to. So just not saying 614 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: things that I actually don't believe in or don't practice 615 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: is a really simple rule. Preparation is really key. So 616 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: I know when I'm underprepared for a speech or an 617 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: interview and I feel really rubbish about it because not 618 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: only is that a poor reflection of myself, and then 619 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: I'm wasting that other person's time. That's their time. So 620 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: just I think being respectful of people and doing your 621 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,959 Speaker 1: research before you go into those things that you automatically 622 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: feel more confident. So if you're a shy person, and 623 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: specifically when I'm doing public speaking events, I will tell 624 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: the audience that I feel nervous, yeah, and I've learned 625 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: to ask for things that I need. So remember the 626 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: very first time I did a public speaking event and 627 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: they gave me a handheld mic, and this is all 628 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: I could see if you're just listening, Like, my hand 629 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: was just waving in front of my face because of 630 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: the nerves, I couldn't keep it still. So then that 631 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: made it worse because I could just see microphone moving everywhere. 632 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: So now I'm like, can I plase i've a head 633 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: mic because I shouldn't hold a microphone. And if I'm 634 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: on stage, I like to be seated other than just 635 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: pacing back and forward. And I just learned and like, Okay, 636 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: these are the things that help me do my job 637 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: or give my speech better. And I don't compare myself 638 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: to people that have been doing it for twenty years 639 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: longer than me. So yeah, he's awesome because he's literally 640 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: clocked up several thousand hours on the stage. I physically 641 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: cannot be as good as him because I haven't had 642 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: enough experience in time. So I will take my notes 643 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: on the stage with me. I will tell the audience 644 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: that I feel really nervous today. Hopefully we'll get into 645 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 1: this and you'll find it helpful and it helps the 646 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: audience understand that I'm just a human as well and 647 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: not like an oracle of information. 648 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 2: Yeah no, no person. 649 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: Is an oracle. So I found those kind of tactics 650 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: have worked for me. 651 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. It reminds me something I mentioned 652 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: cy before from Invado, and it reminds me of something 653 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: she said when I was chatting with her. She said 654 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 2: something but it completely changed her comfort level on stage, 655 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: particularly being part of panel events. Is she always got 656 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: nervous that should be asked a question that she didn't 657 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 2: know the answer to. And she then she was on 658 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 2: a panel and she saw someone being asked a really 659 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 2: hard question and they said, I'm sorry, I don't know 660 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 2: the answer to that, And for her that was just groundbreaking, 661 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 2: Like that's an option to say that you don't know. 662 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 2: That is crazy And I love that. I feel the 663 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: same way when I'm on a panel that, oh God, 664 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 2: are they gonna ask me a really tricky question that's going. 665 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: To make me look really stupid. Yeah, And I think 666 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: we've all felt like that. It's one time out of 667 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: one hundred that that might happen too, and we get 668 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: ourselves so worked up on the scene that's most likely 669 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: to know what happened, rather than they're just gonna ask 670 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: me questions about my work and I know that I 671 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 1: do things each day. 672 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's just an option to say past. That 673 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 2: was track of what you're saying as well about influences 674 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 2: and that there are actually like a lot of people 675 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 2: kind of likely you who sort of you know, feel 676 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 2: you know, maybe a bit shyer or more introverted within 677 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 2: the industry. And like, one of the things I do 678 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: when I'm researching guests is I'll always pop onto their 679 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 2: social media profiles and sort of saying what's happening and no, 680 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 2: but they're on your Instagram. Like, like, I was looking 681 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: at your Instagram and I'm not sure how often actually 682 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 2: that you update it, but there was a bit going on, 683 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 2: you know it Just like it puts out this like 684 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 2: person who looks like they've got this perfect life, and 685 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 2: it made me feel quite intimidated to be sitting here 686 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: chatting with you. I'm kind of off all the social 687 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: channels except I use LinkedIn and Twitter a little bit 688 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 2: just for work stuff. But how like, tell me about 689 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 2: the thought process around like what you put onto Instagram? 690 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: And you know, I guess, like do you see that 691 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 2: as sort of needing to portray a certain persona to 692 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 2: be consistent with the Frank brand given you are a 693 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 2: face of. 694 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: It, like good work pretty much like zero thot. Yeah, 695 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: to be honest, I really don't use my own social 696 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: media very much at all anymore. I think if you 697 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: were probably looking at this in the days before our 698 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: into it was maybe the first time I've used it 699 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,919 Speaker 1: in about two months. I was at my best friend's hens, 700 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: so there's the tripod, myself and Free and Hannah and 701 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: I posted a few photos from there. But now I 702 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: don't really social media is a time vacuum, and I 703 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: was like a mindless drone. I'd wake up in the 704 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: morning and I'd check social media even though I wasn't 705 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: doing anything. When I'm just scrolling through it, I'm like, 706 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: how much time? And I wasted? Eat, Like my thumb's hurt. 707 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: This is bad, and you felt like you needed to 708 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: be on it and connected to do your job. If 709 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,959 Speaker 1: you've got a business, it's operating heavily in the social space, 710 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, that's ridiculous. I have a team of people 711 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: that do that. I don't need to be looking at 712 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: this stuff. I quit social media, so basically didn't use 713 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: it for several months, and every now and then in 714 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks, I'll pop back on, but 715 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: I don't really give a second thought about the content. 716 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,879 Speaker 1: I just don't post much because I don't really think 717 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: people give a crap about what I'm doing every day, 718 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: Like here's my toast, here's my Like if I posted 719 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: my life all the time, it'd be like just me 720 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: moving from one meeting room to the other, and like, 721 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: here's the view of my Excel spreadsheets, rivetings. So I 722 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: just use it more like a photo album really and 723 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: put up more meaningful events, like photos from my wedding 724 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: and my husband and I just opened a training studio 725 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: called Frame, so my kid's frame. 726 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 2: Look. 727 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: I did a thing like, nah, I don't Yeah, I'm 728 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: pretty lazy. 729 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,399 Speaker 2: That's interesting. So you said that you like you gave 730 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: up social media. What led you to give it up? 731 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 2: And how long ago was this. 732 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: I went away on a health retreat a couple of 733 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: months ago because I felt like I needed to physically 734 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: remove myself from my environment to really detox on a 735 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 1: few key things, namely my digital consumption. I think it's 736 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 1: the nature of our jobs today is we're connected twenty 737 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: four to seven, and we feel guilt if we know 738 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,919 Speaker 1: there's probably something sitting on our phone and we haven't 739 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: looked at it. So I've had I don't have notifications 740 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: for email or a slack or anything like that. I 741 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: haven't for years because I tried to not let it 742 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: in just invade my life, but I still found myself 743 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,919 Speaker 1: opening up my computer and my life all the time, 744 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: Like from the moment I wake up, before I even 745 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: get out of bed, I'm on my email and that 746 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: would just set the tone of my day. I'm like, well, 747 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: what about myself? Like how can I don't want to 748 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: just live to work? And that's the habit that I 749 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: found I was getting in. So I'm a bit of 750 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: an all or nothing person. I really struggle with moderation. 751 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: I always have. So I need to quit technology. That 752 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: will be difficult because you need to use a computer 753 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: every day. Okay, I could quit social media. That's a 754 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: fair step, and like I can try and not use 755 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: my phone when I'm in bed and just get up 756 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: and have a warning. So took myself off to Queensland 757 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: for a week, had a digital detox. It was the 758 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: best week. I came back. I was like floating through 759 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: Gold Coast Airport like I was on a different. 760 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 2: Way in there. 761 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: Just after five or six days, which retreat did you go? 762 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: I went to queen Ghana. Yeah, and I've never done 763 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: a retreat like that before in my life. I was like, 764 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: you know what, you work hard, go and do it 765 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: and it will help. And it did, Like you know, 766 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: and I don't think maintaining and one hundred percent were 767 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: like zero rule is possible all the time. But it 768 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: at least gave me, I don't know, a bit of 769 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: a start and ife that kind of personality like me 770 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: just trying to tape off doesn't work, Like I need 771 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: to root the band aid off and then work out 772 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: how things can factor back into my life. 773 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 2: Yes, I had very similar experience a couple of years ago. Yeah, 774 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 2: and to help to retreat, I went to pronounce Gaya 775 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 2: Hire and spent four days there and completely changed all 776 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 2: my working habits actually and social media habits as well. Yes. 777 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: Yes, it's a tough one, isn't it. They're expensive, and 778 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: I just wish everybody had that luxury and a lot 779 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: of people don't. So I've come back and I'm like, 780 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 1: how can people experience that kind of thing, or like, 781 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: what can we teach people that can't necessarily for the 782 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: time or the money to be able to go, Like, 783 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 1: I think there's a real gap just being able to 784 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: help most people ninety nine percent of the population actually 785 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: able to benefit from those things. If anyone solves there, 786 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: let me know. 787 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll definitely recommend digital minimalism by Calendy reports such 788 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 2: a great book for Oh, it's amazing, and I think 789 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,760 Speaker 2: like for anyone or if you're trying to help people 790 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 2: get off digital devices, that book is an amazing place 791 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 2: to start. So you what does your relationship with your 792 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 2: phone look like? Now? Like, take me through a typical day, 793 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:30,959 Speaker 2: and you know what you're using it for. Now. 794 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: My phone is should be mostly for my personal phone 795 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: calls and messages, So I've got notifications off for everything 796 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:45,879 Speaker 1: except phone calls. I my voicemail recording says I don't 797 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: listen to voicemails, Please text or email me. You'd be 798 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: surprised the amount of people it's still for voicemail that I've. 799 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 2: Got the exact same message. Yes, you're never going. 800 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: To be heard. I'm like, who listens to someone going 801 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: I'm not going to listen to this and then just 802 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: talks at it anyway. I'm like you, I don't deserve 803 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: to be listened to at this point, and I think 804 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: just setting those boundaries for myself. So I do that 805 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: across the board with digital so not voicemails. They're usually 806 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: people just trying to sell me shit I don't need. 807 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,760 Speaker 1: I'm not going to listen to them. Anyone that knows 808 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: me well enough to be contacting me as a friend 809 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: knows how I prefer to be contacted. Email is like 810 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: my last protocol, So I will let my inbox overflow 811 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: before I would let a project fall by the wayside 812 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: or let a team in the down. Which has been 813 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: a hard transition and just really having to communicate that 814 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: to people. And I think the number one key if 815 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: practicing any kind of digital minimalism is to communicate with 816 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: the people that communicate with you about why and what 817 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 1: you're doing. Because if you just make changes and you 818 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: don't tell anyone, they're just being a little bit dickish, 819 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,879 Speaker 1: and like, that's really hard for people to support your 820 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: decision if they don't know why you're doing it and 821 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,359 Speaker 1: how it can help you, and then in turn how 822 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: it can help them telling people. That's why my voicemail 823 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 1: says that, rather than me just not listening to them. 824 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and what about email? So what is your 825 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 2: approach and relationship with your inbox? 826 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: It's interesting I listened to a bunch of your interviews. 827 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: Everyone has such different philosophies and there's no wrong or right. 828 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: You just have to do what works for you. It's 829 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: changed over time. I just feel like I needed to 830 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: respond immediately and to everything. Then I realized email is 831 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,399 Speaker 1: not instant messenger. I don't need to I now if 832 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: people write back to me too quickly, I think you 833 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: don't have enough work to do, or you don't know 834 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,359 Speaker 1: how to prioritize the things that are really important. So 835 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: I will sporadically go on email throughout the week to 836 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: make sure that there's nothing absolutely urgent in there. 837 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 2: And what does sporadically go on email? Mates? 838 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: Literally that like, I don't have a dedicated to time 839 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,280 Speaker 1: or day because my schedule changes so frequently and I'm 840 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,919 Speaker 1: in bumper the bumper meetings a lot of the day. 841 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 1: If I've got twenty minutes not in the meeting, the 842 00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,280 Speaker 1: last thing I want to be doing is on email. 843 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: I want to be working on a project that is 844 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,399 Speaker 1: actually going to help my business in my team. So 845 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 1: it'll be once I feel like I've never completed everything, 846 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: but I'm like, a, maybe don't have the brain capacity 847 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: right now to be working out an entire marketing strategy 848 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: for twenty twenty. I might spend fifteen minutes on my email. 849 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: So that's my approach to it, and I just don't 850 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: write back to every email, Like I get hundreds of 851 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: emails a week from people I don't know. If I 852 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,720 Speaker 1: spent all my time writing back to them, I wouldn't 853 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,400 Speaker 1: have a business, and then no one would email me. 854 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,319 Speaker 1: So I would imagine. 855 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 2: That you would be getting so many requests on your time, 856 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 2: and that you'd be getting a lot of people, particularly 857 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 2: in the industries that you work within, asking for a 858 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 2: coffee to pick your brain about stuff. Yep, yep, happens 859 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 2: all the time. What's your approach to deciding what opportunities 860 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 2: to say yes to and what to say no to? 861 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,240 Speaker 1: I think giving your time to people when it's warranted 862 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: is really important. I wouldn't be where I am today 863 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: if people hadn't given me their time. I like to 864 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: think that what I did differently, though, was do the 865 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: heavy lifting for those people that I was asking of 866 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,799 Speaker 1: their time. So people, I'll get emails that are like, 867 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: I think I should maybe do a business. What do 868 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: you think? I'm like, how am I supposed to answer that? 869 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 1: But people that take the time to give me information 870 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 1: and don't want to just use me as like a 871 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,720 Speaker 1: decision making device, I'm like, Okay, you're doing the work. 872 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: I can spend half an hour talking with you or 873 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: ten minutes or whatever it is, So I just that's 874 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: how I judge it. 875 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:33,959 Speaker 2: Now, that's kind of if they've done the heavy lifting, 876 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 2: and what's an example of that for you? Like, I 877 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 2: know that Joe from Mecca was a really influential person 878 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 2: for you, So what did that look like when you 879 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,479 Speaker 2: reached out to her? And like I imagine you probably did, 880 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 2: you know so called heavy lifting? What did that look like? 881 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: When we were originally engaging with Joe, it was about 882 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: we know what we want to learn from Joe because 883 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 1: she is a pioneer in the beauty industry in Australia. 884 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: She knows brick and Watar retail like nobody else does. 885 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 1: What do we maybe know better. We're really good at 886 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: social and we're really good at digital, and we know 887 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,239 Speaker 1: that that's an area that at the time they wanted 888 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: to grow into. Now they're killing it. So it's like cool, 889 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: can we come together and share information. We can talk 890 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: to you about what we know here, you can teach 891 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 1: us about what you know there. So there's like something 892 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: in it for everyone. And I don't necessarily think that 893 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: I'm only going to meet people who can give me 894 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,360 Speaker 1: something back. But it's a nice gesture at least to 895 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 1: just be like, hey, your time is valuable too. I 896 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: don't just want to use it to learn for myself. 897 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,879 Speaker 1: I want to see if I can teach anything to you. 898 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, that I think that was valuable. Joe's just 899 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: a very generous person as well, so that was helpful. 900 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 2: I want to come back to phone and social media. 901 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 2: What did you end up doing with social media accounts 902 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 2: on your phone? Like do you sort of did you 903 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 2: leave them be or are they hidden or deleted? What 904 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 2: does what does that kind of look like? 905 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: I rearranged all of the menus and my phones. I 906 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: moved all of the work and social media stuff to 907 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: the back page of my phone. So if you open up, now, yeah, 908 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: what have we got here on my front page? They 909 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: have to go all the way back there to get 910 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,280 Speaker 1: to my work stuff, and now I've. 911 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 2: Got utilities on the front page. 912 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,879 Speaker 1: Quantus is definitely necessary to have on the front page. 913 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 1: It's just like Spotify, Airbnb, things that are not like 914 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 1: work related. They're all things that are like, oh, that's 915 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 1: just for me, like as a person in my life, 916 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,439 Speaker 1: Like do I want to go on a holiday, I'm sure, yeah, 917 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,439 Speaker 1: rather than just like every time I look at any 918 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:31,320 Speaker 1: device in my life, it's just flashing work in my face. Yeah, 919 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: and social. So I just got rid of it all 920 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 1: that was really easy. 921 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 2: Was there a period of time or maybe I don't know, 922 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 2: maybe the health retreat detox kind of fixed it. But 923 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 2: when you're trying to kick an addictive behavior, like the 924 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 2: impulse is still there, like when you got back from Gungana. 925 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 2: Was the impulse still there to just kind of press 926 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 2: the Instagram button on the phone or did it just 927 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 2: like disappear after being off it for a few days. 928 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 1: Luckily it disappeared. But I went there with the intention 929 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 1: of really trying to kick those habits. So I just 930 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:03,759 Speaker 1: needed this space to be able to do it. And 931 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: once I'd done it, I know that's who I am 932 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: as a person. Like once I kick the habit, if 933 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 1: I could do it for a few days, I know 934 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,720 Speaker 1: I can stick with it. It's making that first step, 935 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: and we're all very guilty of that, like I'll start tomorrow, 936 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 1: I'll do it tomorrow. Keep doing that like tomorrow's go 937 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: forever and we never change anything. So I was lucky, 938 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: but I have spent so many years really getting to 939 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 1: learn how I learned? 940 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,720 Speaker 2: Was that hard that first day being off social. 941 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: I didn't really care about Social so much. It was 942 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: more my email, Like Social was more of a habit 943 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: because I was constantly waking up tired and I've really 944 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: struggled with burnout and autoimmunity over the last few years 945 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 1: so and a terrible sleeper. So it was almost born 946 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: out of this, I'm too tired to get out of 947 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,000 Speaker 1: bed even in the morning, so I'll just lie here 948 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: and look at my phone. And so it was less 949 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 1: about wanting to see what was going on in social 950 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 1: and more that it's activity that you can do you're 951 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: still horizontal that kind of wakes up ways up. Yeah. Yeah, 952 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: So no, I didn't care. I worried a little bit 953 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:12,840 Speaker 1: more about work, and I'm like, oh God, I hope if 954 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,360 Speaker 1: anything's okay, because there's literally no way for people to 955 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,239 Speaker 1: contact me unless they call the emergency planline, in which 956 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 1: case that would be bad. But in years prior, like 957 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,760 Speaker 1: I'd gone on trips and I said to the team, 958 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,440 Speaker 1: and this is a team that isn't really part of 959 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,720 Speaker 1: the business anymore, going back many years, like I'm taking 960 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: my first non working holiday circa twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. 961 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: Please only contact me if it's an emergency, and via WhatsApp. 962 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: In the meantime, you have you know, several other directors 963 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,239 Speaker 1: and senior leadership team here. I learned that rule, like, 964 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 1: what people consider an emergency, this is what I consider 965 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:55,600 Speaker 1: an emergency are very very different things. And I was 966 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 1: starting to reply to everyone, and you know, I had 967 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 1: like seven emergencies in the first day, and I've looked 968 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: back and I'm like, none of these are emergencies. This 969 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: is just you not wanting to make a decision. I'm like, 970 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:06,880 Speaker 1: I'm not doing this anymore. And I actually had to 971 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:08,439 Speaker 1: tell the team. I'm like, all right, I've got really 972 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,400 Speaker 1: different definitions of emergencies, guys. I'm actually offline. And so 973 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:14,560 Speaker 1: then when you just put it back on people to 974 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,279 Speaker 1: make decisions, they magically can. 975 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely can. So right, So, coming back to 976 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 2: what you said towards the beginning, it's about the clear 977 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,759 Speaker 2: brief and the clear expectations and being aligned on that 978 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 2: y yeah. Yeah. And then also just a blanket rule 979 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:32,920 Speaker 2: don't contact me. 980 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,759 Speaker 1: And I think it was you know, I reflect on 981 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,280 Speaker 1: it now and I'm like it's not necessarily their fault. 982 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,520 Speaker 1: It's also the culture that we set where we would 983 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: control freaks and we would micromanage everything. We'd want to 984 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 1: okay everything. So why would I think that when I 985 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 1: go away that they're just going to not think that 986 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,000 Speaker 1: that's going to happen anymore. So that was actually probably 987 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 1: a really pivotal point in my career in terms of 988 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,759 Speaker 1: learning how to delegate more effectively as well, because I'm like, 989 00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 1: if I ever actually want to take time off, I 990 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: have to empower my team to be able to make decisions, 991 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:04,920 Speaker 1: to be able to thrive, to be able to fail, 992 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 1: and know that unless we bankrup the business, that everything 993 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 1: is going to be okay. 994 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely. You mentioned just before that like sleep 995 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 2: has been a thing for you, and I think it's 996 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 2: a thing for so many people. Like what strategies have 997 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,160 Speaker 2: helped you get a better night sleep? 998 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,680 Speaker 1: I was talking about this with my mum last night, 999 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,640 Speaker 1: because we're both notoriously bad sleepers. I've been a bad 1000 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: sleeper for as long as I can remember, like well 1001 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: before I started full time work, because I've always been 1002 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,800 Speaker 1: a slightly anxious person, and I think anyone that's anxious 1003 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,879 Speaker 1: you lie down in bed and you start thinking about 1004 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,240 Speaker 1: everything that has or could possibly go wrong. So I've 1005 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: always had that stress association with my bed, Like it's 1006 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,719 Speaker 1: not this place that I went to to just blissfully 1007 00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 1: fall to sleep. It's a place that I would think 1008 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,880 Speaker 1: about every problem that could possibly occur in my life. 1009 00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,640 Speaker 1: There's no silver bullet. I'm so sorry. I know sugar 1010 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,240 Speaker 1: really impacts my sleep, and so if I cut sugar 1011 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,040 Speaker 1: out of my diet, I sleep so much better. My 1012 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: husband and I just moved to red Hill, actually, so 1013 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 1: we sold our house in South Era. We moved to 1014 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 1: red Hill because we thought we want to get home 1015 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 1: to a place that has more space, is a bit 1016 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 1: of a slower pace because we live such a busy 1017 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:23,040 Speaker 1: lives in the city every day carving out that I 1018 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,879 Speaker 1: guess little physical space has been incredible. I do really 1019 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: simple things like I turn all the lights off, and 1020 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 1: my mom is exactly the same. So Dan, my husband's 1021 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 1: walking around and I was like, I can't say anything, 1022 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,719 Speaker 1: and I'm like, there's candles long, how nice? It is? 1023 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 1: Like no blue light anywhere? What else do I do? 1024 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 1: I don't drink any coffee after midday. It's just like 1025 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 1: simple stuff. Yeah, and I find deep belly breathing, Like 1026 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,480 Speaker 1: if I wake up, I put my hands on my 1027 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 1: belly and I just really practice that deep belly breathing 1028 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 1: for ten or fifteen minutes and will usually help me 1029 00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,120 Speaker 1: settle because I'll wake up with like a racing heart 1030 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 1: and you know all those typical symptoms. 1031 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:02,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1032 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's just learning to not be angry at it, 1033 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,759 Speaker 1: I think, because any war worked up. 1034 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if you've come across Matthew Walker's work. 1035 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,600 Speaker 2: He's a sleep professor from Berkeley wrote this great book 1036 00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 2: called Why We Sleep. I will send you a copy 1037 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,919 Speaker 2: of it. I've been sleep obsessed for the better part 1038 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 2: of two decades. Where in my twenties I was a 1039 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:32,319 Speaker 2: terrible sleeper, but I felt like the last few years 1040 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:36,080 Speaker 2: it's good. Yes, it's good. Now. Yeah, I'm actually a 1041 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 2: really good sleeper. 1042 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:37,880 Speaker 1: That's fantastic. 1043 00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:39,520 Speaker 2: I'm just trying to think of the things that have 1044 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,040 Speaker 2: helped me most, like I think you know obviously, like 1045 00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,879 Speaker 2: good sleep hygiene and getting off screens ninety minutes before 1046 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:50,440 Speaker 2: bed is just a constant rule for me. Remember, Probably 1047 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,319 Speaker 2: one of the biggest things that helped me is not 1048 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:58,640 Speaker 2: doing anything like any activities, you know, the things that 1049 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,480 Speaker 2: you meant to be doing in bed in bed. Because 1050 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 2: I was a chronic reader in bed, I would always 1051 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,560 Speaker 2: read in bed and that is how I'd get sleepy. 1052 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 2: But then you associate bed with things that are not 1053 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,640 Speaker 2: you know, stuff that you do in bed, and changing 1054 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,960 Speaker 2: that helped a lot, and then I remember sleep restriction 1055 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,960 Speaker 2: has probably been the most effective thing where I've done 1056 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,520 Speaker 2: like a few overnight sleeps in sleep labs, and both 1057 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,440 Speaker 2: times the sleep doctors had said, Okay, you need to 1058 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,520 Speaker 2: just spend less time in bed so that you can 1059 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,160 Speaker 2: hopefully sleep all the way through. Because my problem was 1060 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,160 Speaker 2: always waking up a lot during the night, and so 1061 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:36,400 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm someone that needs eight hours sleep. 1062 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,440 Speaker 2: So they're like just being in bed for six hours 1063 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,279 Speaker 2: and that's it. So you're gonna have to stay up 1064 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,399 Speaker 2: late and then you just get out six hours later, 1065 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,920 Speaker 2: no matter how you are feeling. And that was so 1066 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,680 Speaker 2: hard that that had a really big impact. 1067 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see how I would benefit from that too, 1068 00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,440 Speaker 1: because if I go to bed and I'm not tired 1069 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,719 Speaker 1: and ready to fall asleep, I just lie there for 1070 00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,279 Speaker 1: hours an hour steering at the roofs after like drag 1071 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,680 Speaker 1: myself into bed when I'm absolutely unable to keep my 1072 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: eyes open. And there are just certain realities that you 1073 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,360 Speaker 1: can't change. Like my beautiful husband. I love him dearly, 1074 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:16,400 Speaker 1: but he snores like a snowplow. Like it's just outrageously loud, 1075 00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,120 Speaker 1: And how do you sleep through that? When you're a 1076 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,160 Speaker 1: light sleeper that wakes up and then I can't get 1077 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,239 Speaker 1: back to sleep and I'm just listening to him. So 1078 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,160 Speaker 1: it's yeah, like there's no sleep divorce. 1079 00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:28,440 Speaker 2: Have you heard of sleep divorce? 1080 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,239 Speaker 1: So I frequently kicked down out into the other bedroom. Yeah, 1081 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,640 Speaker 1: I love you, Yeah, yeah. 1082 00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,360 Speaker 2: Sleep divorces becoming is really common thing. I think. I 1083 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:41,320 Speaker 2: don't know. I read somewhere that maybe like as third 1084 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,759 Speaker 2: of couples that are having sleep divorces where they'll sleep 1085 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:44,359 Speaker 2: in separate bed. 1086 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,799 Speaker 1: I remember at first I felt so upset about it. 1087 00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is for us. We didn't see 1088 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,080 Speaker 1: each other much during the day until recently when we 1089 00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,719 Speaker 1: set up the studio. We'd cross paths between eight and 1090 00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,120 Speaker 1: nine pm when we were trying to cook in I'm 1091 00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:59,759 Speaker 1: trying to do the washing and trying to clean the house. 1092 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,640 Speaker 1: This is recipe for romance. Isn't it? And then he 1093 00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:04,480 Speaker 1: needs to go back because he's up at five am 1094 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,640 Speaker 1: for work and I'm a night hour. I wouldn't usually 1095 00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,520 Speaker 1: fall asleep until closer than midnight. So we're on like 1096 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,680 Speaker 1: completely opposite schedules. And I'm lying there trying to fall 1097 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,760 Speaker 1: asleep next to this chainsaw, and instead of looking lovingly 1098 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,239 Speaker 1: at him, I'm like, what's the sentence if I'm murder you? 1099 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:21,920 Speaker 2: Right now? 1100 00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,840 Speaker 1: We're at that point. Maybe it's quiet in jail, and 1101 00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,400 Speaker 1: I might guess in sleep. I don't know. Yeah, So 1102 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,279 Speaker 1: I'm big into sleep to force. But I'm also big 1103 00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,759 Speaker 1: into the temper mattress that we bore, because that's changing everything. 1104 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:38,799 Speaker 1: What is it? Yes, it's just three thousand dollars to 1105 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,080 Speaker 1: solve everyone's sleep problems. Fixed it for you, you know, 1106 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,160 Speaker 1: the memory Fie mattresses like the best money we ever 1107 00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:47,399 Speaker 1: spent and we worked for two years. Like, we need 1108 00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,640 Speaker 1: a new bed, we need a king sized bed. He's 1109 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,279 Speaker 1: one hundred kilos and six foot three. He takes up 1110 00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,959 Speaker 1: the better part of anything that's not a king sized bed. 1111 00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:57,719 Speaker 1: And you know when you just don't because you're like, oh, 1112 00:54:57,719 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 1: we've got a morggage. I don't just want to fork 1113 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,719 Speaker 1: out another three grand on a bed, and then I'm like, no, 1114 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,439 Speaker 1: you cannot put a brass on your sleep and your 1115 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,640 Speaker 1: health and not going to prison because you've murdered your partner. Yeah, 1116 00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,680 Speaker 1: so it's like the best thing we ever bought. 1117 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:14,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, I hat Oh that sounds very cool. 1118 00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:15,520 Speaker 1: Not paid rep for the brand. 1119 00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:17,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like a great matters are one of 1120 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 2: the best investments you can make. You're spending a third 1121 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,480 Speaker 2: of your life in this location. People pay way more 1122 00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 2: for a house than a mattress. 1123 00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,839 Speaker 1: They do. Yeah, And we get really we get really 1124 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,520 Speaker 1: funny about trying to find like new quick fixes to everything, 1125 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,000 Speaker 1: and like if you tally up what you spend on 1126 00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:37,640 Speaker 1: a sleep meditation app over the course of three years, 1127 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,680 Speaker 1: and you spend fifteen or thirty dollars a month in 1128 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,280 Speaker 1: some cases, so like just put that into a fund 1129 00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,319 Speaker 1: and buy a mattress, and like it's just like it's 1130 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,960 Speaker 1: sometimes it's not about like the new fandangle thing. It's 1131 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,880 Speaker 1: just like, no, you need to sleep on something comfortable. Yeah, easy, Yeah, absolutely, 1132 00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:54,200 Speaker 1: it helped. Yeah, absolutely. 1133 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 2: Oh cool. Well I could just keep on talking to 1134 00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,200 Speaker 2: you for ages, Jess, but I think you've got a 1135 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,840 Speaker 2: job to do, so thank you so much for coming 1136 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,200 Speaker 2: on the show. She just been Yeah, real pleasure. 1137 00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:08,680 Speaker 1: In letting me yap about the mattress for the last 1138 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:09,200 Speaker 1: five minutes. 1139 00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,360 Speaker 2: Hello there, Thank you so much for listening to today's show. 1140 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,200 Speaker 2: I hope you liked my chat with Jess and if 1141 00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,360 Speaker 2: you're keen to find out more about what she's doing, 1142 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:25,279 Speaker 2: you can check out Frankbody at frankbody dot com. You 1143 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 2: can also check out their amazing Instagram account which is 1144 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:34,160 Speaker 2: at frank underscore bod and you can join their seven 1145 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:39,279 Speaker 2: hundred thousand plus followers. And Jess also runs a communication 1146 00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:44,640 Speaker 2: agency which you can check out at Willowandblake dot com. 1147 00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,400 Speaker 2: So I hope you like today's show and if you 1148 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,879 Speaker 2: know someone who you think would also like it, why 1149 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,359 Speaker 2: not share it with them. Sorry, that is it for 1150 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:54,120 Speaker 2: today and I will see you next time.