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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, what seems to serve our children best is not

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Speaker 2: early specialization. Having a really wide range of experience seems

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Speaker 2: to serve our kids better.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com.

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Speaker 3: Do you It's so good to have.

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Speaker 2: You here on the Happy Family's podcast. I'm here with Kylie,

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Speaker 2: mum to our six kids, and my podcast's partner and

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Speaker 2: most importantly, my wife of I was doing the maths

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Speaker 2: the other day and it's actually been so long that

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Speaker 2: I'm struggling to work it out. Well, we married in

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Speaker 2: it was ninety eight, wasn't it early ninety eight, Yes,

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Speaker 2: my honey, Yeah, great, So it's been like twenty four

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Speaker 2: and a bit years, twenty four and a half years almost.

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Speaker 4: Making me feel old.

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Speaker 2: Well, I hate to say it, but there's a reality

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Speaker 2: to this. Did you see that meme that I put

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Speaker 2: up on social media? I was a couple weeks ago.

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Speaker 2: Now it just went absolutely crazy doing some maths about

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Speaker 2: how old you'd be if you were born at a

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Speaker 2: particular time.

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Speaker 3: Did you catch that one? I did? It was frightening.

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Speaker 2: I've just I've dragged it up here so that I

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Speaker 2: can share it with you in case you didn't see

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Speaker 2: it on Facebook. The comments were so funny as people

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Speaker 2: sort of reflected on what I had said or what

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Speaker 2: the meme said. It says, when you realize that nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy and twenty twenty two are as far apart as

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy and nineteen eighteen, I'm just going to need

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Speaker 2: a minute.

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Speaker 3: Is what it said.

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Speaker 2: And people were like, that's shocking. I need to sit down.

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Speaker 2: One person said, when you were born in nineteen fifty

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Speaker 2: and realized that that time difference takes you to eighteen

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Speaker 2: ninety eight, like whoa, and a whole lot of people like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I need to have laid down. That's not making me

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Speaker 2: feel very good. Somebody just said, why would you say that?

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Speaker 2: Why will you do that? I can't believe you do it,

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Speaker 2: And I think I needed to digest this. The funniest

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Speaker 2: one was somebody who said, you don't do maths right.

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Speaker 2: That can't be right anyway. Today's conversation is not about

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Speaker 2: how old we're all getting. It's a conversation about extracurricular activities.

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Speaker 2: Having a conversation recently with somebody who said, how do

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Speaker 2: you decide which activity is the most important? Like, there

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Speaker 2: are so many things that you can do, Kylie. You

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Speaker 2: can put the kids into swimming and music. There's art

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Speaker 2: classes and drama.

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Speaker 3: You can stick them.

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Speaker 4: Into still art self defense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, And the list goes on and on, and

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Speaker 2: you can get them speaking extra languages, doing their musical instruments,

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Speaker 2: doing their tutoring and all that sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: And it's an expansive list.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you want them to do some acting, some I

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Speaker 2: don't know, some drama, some media sports. Yeah, there's all

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Speaker 2: the competitive stuff as well. And this person said, there

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Speaker 2: are so many things that my kids want to do,

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Speaker 2: and there's so many things that I want them to do.

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Speaker 3: How are you supposed to decide? And so I thought

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Speaker 3: we'd give you the list of what your child should

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Speaker 3: be doing. I don't know if I want to be

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Speaker 3: a part of this lesson.

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Speaker 2: It's easy, just just pick one thing, one sport, one

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Speaker 2: musical activity, or one sort of artistic endeavor.

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Speaker 3: Done. Job fixed? Is that not? Okay? We can't say that,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's.

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Speaker 4: Interesting Over the years, our ideas and ideals and values

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Speaker 4: around all of this have changed so much because each

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Speaker 4: of our children is different. It would be so awesome

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Speaker 4: to think that we could have six children who just

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Speaker 4: want to do the same thing at the same time

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Speaker 4: in the same place. But that's not how it's worked out.

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Speaker 3: We have six daughters.

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Speaker 2: Could you all just play in that ball job, we'd

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Speaker 2: almost have a team? Yeah, we would. Yeah, how good

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Speaker 2: would that be? Anyway, that's not how it works. So

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Speaker 2: today we thought we would share some hints, tips and

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Speaker 2: ideas for how you can work out for yourself and

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Speaker 2: for your family what activities are most important for your

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Speaker 2: children to do, and which are activities you might want

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Speaker 2: to take a pass on. And no, we're not going

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Speaker 2: to go through the whole list of all of the options. Instead,

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Speaker 2: we're going to share some basic principles to guide the

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Speaker 2: decision making.

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Speaker 3: And the first one has to do with how old

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Speaker 3: are your children?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you really don't want to be giving your two

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Speaker 4: year old piano lessons.

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Speaker 2: Except it happens and every now and again. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you see these youtubes. I remember watching YouTube a little

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Speaker 2: while ago, and there's these five kids, little Japanese kids,

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Speaker 2: and they're all playing the guitar together, and they were

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Speaker 2: I reckon, they were four years old. These guitars are

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Speaker 2: bigger than them, and they were amazing, and I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: I wish my kids could play the guitar like that

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Speaker 2: when they were four. But that's not what childhood is

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Speaker 2: actually supposed to be about.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: It's true, if your kids are enjoying something and they

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Speaker 2: want to learn it, that's fine. But you're typically fine.

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Speaker 2: Most teachers will say, we don't want to see your

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Speaker 2: kids until they're at least eight or nine. There are

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Speaker 2: some who'll take your money earlier, but the kids don't

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Speaker 2: really learn in advance, particularly well until they've done a

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Speaker 2: little bit of extra learning. I know that there are

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Speaker 2: some methods out there that are specifically designed for young kids,

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Speaker 2: and there is that whole music appreciation thing, but you're

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Speaker 2: really just spending a whole lot of money and giving

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Speaker 2: up a whole lot of time to have somebody else

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Speaker 2: look after your kids and teach them stuff that's fun.

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Speaker 2: But if you really want them to learn something and

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Speaker 2: fall in love with it, wait until they're a little

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Speaker 2: bit older, is what I would generally advise.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we actually broke that rule. A little bit because

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Speaker 4: we had one of our children who from a very

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Speaker 4: early age just loved to tink her on the piano.

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Speaker 4: And when she was three, we actually decided to put

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Speaker 4: her into music lessons because she just you could see,

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Speaker 4: she wanted to be there, and she actually had a

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Speaker 4: little bit of a knack to finding the right notes.

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Speaker 4: But I very quickly worked out that while she loved playing,

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Speaker 4: her teacher was so hard corradulated.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I was like, no, no, this is not what I want.

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Speaker 4: I just wanted her to continue to appreciate and to

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Speaker 4: kind of learn a little bit. And so we ended

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Speaker 4: up pulling her out and she didn't play for the

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Speaker 4: next three or four years.

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Speaker 3: At least I think she was eight or nine before

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Speaker 3: she went back.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but she has continued to love it. So finding

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Speaker 4: the right kind of fit and feel is important. But

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Speaker 4: I also recognize that at three, I was paying for

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Speaker 4: appreciation as opposed to learning skills.

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Speaker 3: And that's exactly what it is.

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Speaker 2: If you've got young kids who are playing any kind

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Speaker 2: of sport, or who are playing music and instruments or

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Speaker 2: doing any kind of extra curricular activity, you're going to

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Speaker 2: find that in those early years up to at least

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Speaker 2: six or seven, but more likely eight or nine. You're

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Speaker 2: paying for them to have a experience an experience, more

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Speaker 2: than you're paying for them to develop any genuine proficiency.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, we see this, if I can draw

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Speaker 2: an educational corollary, we see this when we teach kids

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Speaker 2: to read and write from a young age, which we

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Speaker 2: tend to do in Australia. We've got kids reading and

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Speaker 2: writing from four or five years of age. In some

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Speaker 2: of the Nordic countries, they don't really bother teaching them

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Speaker 2: to read or write until they're six or seven. Even

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Speaker 2: though the kids are enthusiastic about it and wants to

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Speaker 2: do it, they say, no, no, no, you'll be fine, you'll

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Speaker 2: be able to work that out later, and they start

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Speaker 2: teaching them at about six or seven. By the age

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Speaker 2: of eleven, their kids are more advanced. They've passed what

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Speaker 2: our kids are doing, even though our kids have had

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Speaker 2: an extra two or three years of doing it. There's

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Speaker 2: something to be said for just waiting for the brain

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Speaker 2: to be ready for this, and it seems like that's

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Speaker 2: somewhere around about the age of seven eight nine, So

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Speaker 2: that would be the first thing. Don't push too hard

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Speaker 2: when they're young. In fact that you know what they

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Speaker 2: need most when they're young.

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Speaker 4: Kids just need to have unstructured time. They just need

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Speaker 4: to be allowed to be kids.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, to play. That's exactly what it is.

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Speaker 2: Down at the park in the dirt, climbing up the trees,

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Speaker 2: doing stuff in the backyard, whatever it is.

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Speaker 3: They just need the opportunity to play.

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Speaker 2: Minimizing their screen access and just having them outdoors in

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Speaker 2: nature with other kids. That's going to do more for

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Speaker 2: them than all of the structured activities in the world

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Speaker 2: in those first half a dozen, maybe even eight to

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Speaker 2: nine years. So that would be the first principle to consider.

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Speaker 2: How old is your child? Not a great idea from

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Speaker 2: a developmental point of view, even though even though each

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Speaker 2: child might look like they are the ducks of kindergarten,

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Speaker 2: like they're going to win the award, and it's nice

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Speaker 2: right when you see the kids walk on stage and

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Speaker 2: they're better than everyone else. It does make you feel

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Speaker 2: like you're doing a great job as a parent, but

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Speaker 2: it's not necessarily in their best interests, believe it or not. Okay,

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Speaker 2: the second thing, other than the age of the child,

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Speaker 2: if we're going to work out what activities matter most

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Speaker 2: is a resources. Yeah, how much cash you've got and

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Speaker 2: how much time you've got, the resources that you have,

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Speaker 2: how many children you already have, and how many activities

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Speaker 2: they're involved in, whether or not you want to have

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Speaker 2: dinner around the table together as a family, or you'd

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Speaker 2: rather have dinner as you're zooming them from one appointment

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Speaker 2: to another in the car. We've been involved with, we've

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Speaker 2: talked with, spent time with families who literally do that.

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Speaker 2: Their life is spent in the car, running the kids around.

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Speaker 2: They eat in the car, they talk in the car.

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Speaker 2: That's their time together. And I'm not going to suggest

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Speaker 2: that that's wrong. It's not my job to tell people

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Speaker 2: what's right and wrong. What I would suggest, though, is

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Speaker 2: that if you've got the time and the money, then

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Speaker 2: it's up to you how many of these activities you do.

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Speaker 2: But I reckon sitting around the table with the kids,

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Speaker 2: with the family at least a few nights a week

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Speaker 2: is probably better for them than doing all of those

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Speaker 2: extra curricular activities. How much time have you got, how

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Speaker 2: much cash have you got? And are you willing to

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Speaker 2: be spending it on these things? After the break, we're

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Speaker 2: going to have a look at the big thing that

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Speaker 2: we have to consider more than anything when it comes

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Speaker 2: to choosing extracurricular activities for your kids. Imagine a relationship

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Speaker 2: where you felt seen, heard and valued. One where as

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Speaker 2: your partner enters the front door, they see you and

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Speaker 2: their eyes light up. A relationship like that is a gift.

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Speaker 2: If you don't have it now, you can. The Happy

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Speaker 2: Family's webinar Better Together gives you the insight, tools and

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Speaker 2: support you need to have a happier relationship, Available now

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Speaker 2: at the Happy Family's webshop.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Famili's podcast, the podcast with a time

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Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers now. And you've teased us,

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Speaker 4: what's the biggest consideration that we need to take into

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Speaker 4: account when we're choosing our children's extracurricular.

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Speaker 3: It's actually the activity itself.

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Speaker 2: It's not the kind of thing that people really want

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Speaker 2: to own up to, but I regularly meet parents who say,

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Speaker 2: I want my child to do these activities for the

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Speaker 2: life lessons they'll get out of it. I want them

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Speaker 2: to play competitive sport, I want them to play footy,

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Speaker 2: I want them to do this or that because of

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Speaker 2: the life lessons that they're going to get and My

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Speaker 2: response to that is they're going to get life lessons

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Speaker 2: no matter what they do. Don't force it, don't demand

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Speaker 2: that they derive life lessons from the extracurricular activities that

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Speaker 2: you're choosing for them.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's healthy.

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Speaker 2: Other parents will say to me, I just I want

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Speaker 2: my kid to be better than everyone else at something,

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Speaker 2: like I want them to be ahead of the pack.

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Speaker 3: I want them to feel good.

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Speaker 2: About themselves, like if I can help them to be

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Speaker 2: competent and capable and look better. And they don't say

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Speaker 2: it in these words, but that's kind of where they're going.

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Speaker 2: I want them to compete and win so they can

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Speaker 2: feel how it feels to win.

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Speaker 4: I think there's such a huge difference between being competent

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Speaker 4: at something and needing to be the best at something.

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Speaker 4: And what we've experienced with our children as we've made

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Speaker 4: decisions is allowing them to do activities to a level

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Speaker 4: of competence has given them a level of confidence without

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Speaker 4: how to be the best.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And there are parents who are

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Speaker 2: genuinely open about saying I want my kids to go

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Speaker 2: to the Olympics. We're going to pick a sport that

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Speaker 2: they find their way to the Olympics. I want them

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Speaker 2: to be an Olympic this or that. And what we've

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Speaker 2: found in good research is that what seems to serve

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Speaker 2: our children best is not early specialization. In fact, that

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Speaker 2: can lead to all kinds of challenges and difficulties, but.

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Speaker 3: Range and breadth.

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Speaker 2: You kind of touched on it a little bit earlier.

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Speaker 2: Having a really wide range of experience seems to serve

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Speaker 2: our kids better.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: I know that there are examples, like Tiger Woods, he

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Speaker 2: was playing golf from the age of two or three,

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Speaker 2: and there's always those stories.

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Speaker 3: But the more.

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Speaker 2: Typical story is that kids did a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: stuff and then one day they were like, this is

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Speaker 2: the thing that I love to do. This is the

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Speaker 2: thing that I want to do. I feel at home here.

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Speaker 2: So what I would actually do is recommend against being

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Speaker 2: the tiger parent. Recommend against being the pushy parent. Recommend

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Speaker 2: against being the parent who says, come on, kiddo, I

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Speaker 2: want you to be awesome. I'm going to coach you.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get you to that level that you

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Speaker 2: need to be. I read Andre Agassi's biography last year,

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Speaker 2: amazing book about one of the world's best tennis players

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Speaker 2: back in the day, and he had a dad who

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Speaker 2: just drove him and drove him and drove him and

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Speaker 2: drove him to excellence because he had to be a

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Speaker 2: world champion, he had to be number one, he had

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Speaker 2: to be the best there was.

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Speaker 3: And well, that's an extreme example.

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Speaker 2: There are examples littered throughout sporting history like that of

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Speaker 2: notably high quality people who are high quality players who

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Speaker 2: just don't like what they do because of it. If

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Speaker 2: we go to choose activities for our kids, I actually

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Speaker 2: think that we should let them have some say in it,

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Speaker 2: like what brings them joy? Where are their friends and

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Speaker 2: what are their friends doing?

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Speaker 3: I reckon there's another couple of other.

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Speaker 2: Things that are worth highlighting as well, what are your values?

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Speaker 2: So in our home we're just not really contact sport people,

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Speaker 2: so we don't have sons, so this is not an

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Speaker 2: issue for us. None of our girls have said I

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Speaker 2: want to play tackle, rugby or footy or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: But if we had sons, we probably would not be

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Speaker 2: steering them towards that kind of game. If they insisted

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Speaker 2: on playing, then I don't know if we'd stand in

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Speaker 2: the way of it, but it's certainly not the kind

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Speaker 2: of thing that we would encourage because we're just not

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Speaker 2: those people. We're not We're not a gun family, so

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Speaker 2: we're not going to say, hey, let's go and do

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Speaker 2: clay pigeon shooting, or let's go out to somebody's farm

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Speaker 2: and use kangaroos and pigs as target practice.

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Speaker 3: What are your values?

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Speaker 2: Because your values are going to drive to some extent

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Speaker 2: the choices that you make. And as an extension of that,

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Speaker 2: we don't even like competition. In fact, there's a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of research that we won't go into in this

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Speaker 2: podcast that highlights the competition can really.

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Speaker 3: Be undermining for kids well being.

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Speaker 2: It can damage their sense of resilience, even their identity.

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Speaker 2: And I've written about that extensively in my book Nine

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Speaker 2: Ways to a Resilient Child. So, like I said, we

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Speaker 2: won't go into that now. But do you have to

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Speaker 2: get the kids involved in competitive pursuits? Do they have

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Speaker 2: to go to the estedford and try to win the ribbon?

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Speaker 2: Do they have to be playing a team sport that

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Speaker 2: requires them to make other people feel bad so they

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Speaker 2: can feel good, That is, they can beat somebody so

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Speaker 2: that they can feel like they're the winners.

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Speaker 3: For me, for us.

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Speaker 2: We've sort of moved away from that quite a little bit,

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Speaker 2: and we've only got a couple of kids that have

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Speaker 2: really enjoyed competitive sports and we've allowed them to do it,

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Speaker 2: but we haven't pushed hard. So they're the big three things.

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Speaker 2: How old is your child, Let's not push them into

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Speaker 2: stuff too early. Number two, what are your resources? Like,

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Speaker 2: is it worth it for you to be doing this?

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Speaker 2: And at what cost? What is it costing your family?

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Speaker 2: And the third thing, what activity should it be? How

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Speaker 2: does that fit with what sparks joy, Where the relationships are,

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Speaker 2: how they can build competence, What your values are. I

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Speaker 2: think that these are questions that we need to consider.

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Speaker 4: I think it's so easy at times to kind of

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Speaker 4: feel like we must be doing things wrong if our

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Speaker 4: kids don't stick at something, or if they can't make

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Speaker 4: a decision on what they want to do or what

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Speaker 4: they love doing. But our job as parents is to

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Speaker 4: give them a multitude of experiences so that they can

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Speaker 4: work out and find out where their joy is sparked.

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Speaker 4: And if we can do that, we recognize that it's

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Speaker 4: not a competition and it doesn't have to happen overnight.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what, though we need to wrap this up.

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Speaker 2: But it feels like a competition when you're sitting there

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Speaker 2: on awards night at the end of the school year

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Speaker 2: and you're seeing all of these kids who are at

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Speaker 2: the top of the tree walking up there and getting

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Speaker 2: their awards, and everyone knows who they are. They're the superstars.

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Speaker 2: They're the ones that win everything. They win the cross country,

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Speaker 2: they win the athletics, they win the swimming. They've been

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Speaker 2: on the representative teams. And as parents of kids who

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Speaker 2: don't tend to walk up on stage and collect those awards,

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Speaker 2: I know that there's part of it that goes, oh,

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Speaker 2: maybe we should push the kids harder. I mean, our

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Speaker 2: kids could do this, Our kids are able to do it.

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Speaker 2: But here's what I think is a helpful reality check.

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Speaker 3: There aren't too many.

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Speaker 2: People I know that have an Instagram profile or a

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Speaker 2: Twitter feed, a Twitter hand or a Twitter profile that

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Speaker 2: says I was the year five sports star of the

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Speaker 2: Year at my public school.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: We don't hang on to the glories of our sporting

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Speaker 2: adventures from our primary school over in our high school

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Speaker 2: days throughout the rest of our adult life. And it's

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Speaker 2: not really a particularly good indication of who our children

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Speaker 2: will grow up to be, their character, their capacity, their contribution.

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Speaker 2: So it's important that they do stuff. It's good for

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Speaker 2: them to have those structured activities as well as lots

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Speaker 2: of unstructured play. But let's not allow it to define

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Speaker 2: them unless they're the one that's driving the definition because

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Speaker 2: it means so much to them and they get so

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Speaker 2: much joy from it. The Happy Family's podcast is produced

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Speaker 2: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our

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Speaker 2: executive producer and if you'd like more info about how

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Speaker 2: to make your family happier, we would love for you

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Speaker 2: to join us at Happy families dot com dot au