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Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the Dailyas this is

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Speaker 1: the Daily OS. Oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: This podcast deals with domestic violence. If you or someone

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Speaker 2: you know needs help, you can reach one eight hundred

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Speaker 2: respect on one eight hundred seven three seven seven three two.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty third of April.

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Speaker 1: I'm Zara, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 2: In the hours following the tragic murder of six people

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Speaker 2: in Sydney's Bondai Junction, families of some of the victims

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Speaker 2: issued statements requesting that media remove images that were being

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Speaker 2: circulated online at the time. One victim's family said that

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Speaker 2: those unauthorized photos being republished by the media was causing

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Speaker 2: their loved ones extreme distress. In today's podcast, I'm speaking

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Speaker 2: to Terang Chaula about the media's responsibility when it comes

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Speaker 2: to reporting tragedies like we saw in say recently. Terreng's

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Speaker 2: an award winning human rights activist, a broadcaster, and a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: He's also the co founder of Not One More Nikki,

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Speaker 2: named in memory of his younger sister, Nikita, who was

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Speaker 2: murdered in twenty fifteen at the age of twenty three.

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Speaker 2: We're going to bring you that chat shortly, but first

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Speaker 2: today's headlines.

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Speaker 1: Queensland Police have appointed a new commissioner after Katerina Carroll

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Speaker 1: announced her retirement in February. Steve Golceski describes by Police

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Speaker 1: Minister Mark Ryan as Queensland's quote most experienced police officer

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Speaker 1: has been with the force for more than forty years.

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Speaker 1: Golceski oversaw hotel quarantine, airport and border security during the

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Speaker 1: pandemic and said his quote primary focus is ensuring the

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Speaker 1: community is safe.

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Speaker 2: New South Wales, Queensland and WA have all been announced

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Speaker 2: as potential hosts for the twenty twenty six Women's Asian Cup.

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Speaker 2: Australia was the only country to submit a bid to

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Speaker 2: host the competition. If approved for ball Australia said hosting

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Speaker 2: the twenty twenty six Cup will create an economic output

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Speaker 2: of two hundred and sixty million dollars alongside one thousand

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Speaker 2: new jobs. CEO James Johnson said hosting the Asian Cup

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Speaker 2: is a golden opportunity for women's football in Australia. Following

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Speaker 2: the success of the twenty twenty three fee for Women's World.

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Speaker 1: Cup, the US House of Representatives have passed a bill

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Speaker 1: that would ban Chinese owned social media platform TikTok in

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Speaker 1: the country unless the app is sold to another owner.

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Speaker 1: TikTok said the bill, which passed with a large majority,

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Speaker 1: would trample the free speech rights of Americans. The bill

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Speaker 1: is expected to pass the Senate and President Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: has previously said he is prepared to sign it into law.

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Speaker 2: In today's good News, Australian kids TV juggernaut Bluey has

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Speaker 2: been recognized by the Australian High Commission in the UK

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Speaker 2: for its global cultural influence. High Commissioner Stephen Smith said

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Speaker 2: the first of its kind award recognizes the ingenuity an

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Speaker 2: artistry of Australia's creative industries and renamed the Commission's headquarters

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Speaker 2: at Bluie House for the day. Blue is the BBC's

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Speaker 2: most popular kids show and was the second most stream

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Speaker 2: TV show in the US across any genre in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three. Last weekend, six people were murdered in Sydney's

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Speaker 2: Bondi Junction Westfield. In the hours that followed the attack,

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Speaker 2: the media slowly started to piece together what had actually happened.

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Speaker 2: At one point, the first of the victims became known,

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Speaker 2: Dr Ashley Good Suddenly, news pages across social media, across

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Speaker 2: websites were running top stories about Ashley Good, using photos

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Speaker 2: of her from her social media. A day later, her

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Speaker 2: family issued this statement overnight. We've been shocked by some

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Speaker 2: media publications reproducing photographs of Ashley, her partner, and our

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Speaker 2: baby girl without our consent. It has caused extreme distress

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Speaker 2: among Ashley's loved ones, and we were quest that the

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Speaker 2: photos be taken down. I've been thinking a lot about

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Speaker 2: what the media's role in a situation like this is,

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Speaker 2: and how important it is that the media reports responsibly

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Speaker 2: and ethically. When I first saw that statement, it made

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Speaker 2: me think about an interview that I had listened to

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Speaker 2: years earlier that had really stuck with me. It was

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Speaker 2: Terrang Chawler Today's guest, speaking to Shameless media about the

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Speaker 2: traumatizing role that the media played after his sister Nikki

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Speaker 2: was murdered. I'll Letterrange tell this story, but quickly, just

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Speaker 2: a bit about him. Terrang is an award winning human

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Speaker 2: rights activist, broadcaster, and lawyer. He's the co founder of

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Speaker 2: Not One More Nikki, named in memory of his younger sister, Nikita,

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Speaker 2: who was murdered in twenty fifteen. Aged twenty three. Today

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Speaker 2: I spoke to Trang about what it's like to have

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Speaker 2: the media hounding you when you've just gotten the worst

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Speaker 2: news of your life. Here's that chat, Terrang, thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for joining us on the Dallyos today.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Sarah, I just.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to talk a bit with you about

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Speaker 2: the way that media deals with tragedies, because in the

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Speaker 2: hours after Ashley Good was murdered in Mundai Junction, her

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Speaker 2: family asked the media explicitly to remove photos that they

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Speaker 2: had published of her and her child without their consent,

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Speaker 2: and the family made very clear that it had caused

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Speaker 2: her loved ones a lot of extreme distress. When you

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Speaker 2: first saw this, when you saw the way that the

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Speaker 2: media was covering this, how did you feel, How did

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Speaker 2: you respond? What did you think about it?

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Speaker 3: I saw it and I thought the same thing I

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Speaker 3: think whenever this happens, whenever there's a tragedy of any

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Speaker 3: kind of violence perpetrated by a man, is that the

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Speaker 3: media has to jump on it to be first, so

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Speaker 3: they will find a photograph without regard for firstly, whether

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Speaker 3: it's a photograph that any of the deceased actually wanted

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Speaker 3: out in the public domain. And secondly, without regard for

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Speaker 3: whether there should be a photograph in the public domain anyway. Right,

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Speaker 3: And so what unfolded at Bondai with the very tragic

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Speaker 3: killings of multiple people, when we saw doctor Ashley Good's

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Speaker 3: family say that they didn't want it, it was seemingly

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Speaker 3: like it didn't matter what their wishes were in that moment.

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Speaker 3: And that's really really heartbreaking, not only for her family,

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Speaker 3: but also for what it says about a media that

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Speaker 3: is so quick to act in a way that goes

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Speaker 3: against the wishes of a murder victim's family.

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Speaker 2: And you have personal experience with this. You are, you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the people who know what it's like to

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Speaker 2: be on the other side of this, to be grieving,

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Speaker 2: and then to have the trauma of that grief compounded

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Speaker 2: by the way that the media responds or engages with you.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me a bit about your experience with

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Speaker 2: the media shortly after your sister's death.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it was just horrendous, and I feel such a

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Speaker 3: sense of empathy and heartbreak for what the families of

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Speaker 3: the Bonde victims are going through very different circumstances with

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Speaker 3: the murder of my sister Nikki, of course, But what

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Speaker 3: I share and what I understand is that there is

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Speaker 3: something playing out in public that you have no control over. Right,

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Speaker 3: That's what it feels like. It feels like the voice

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Speaker 3: of the person that you love, the person that you've lost,

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Speaker 3: that's been taken away from them, Their agency has been

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Speaker 3: taken away. And then you think, maybe now there's an

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Speaker 3: opportunity to engage with the media in a way that

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Speaker 3: allows their voice to shine through. But that couldn't be

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Speaker 3: further from the truth, right. I remember distinctly after Nikki

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Speaker 3: was murdered, there was immediate victim blaming from the very beginning.

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Speaker 3: There was so much around what she did that could

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Speaker 3: have contributed to another person's choice to use violence against her. Right. Secondly,

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Speaker 3: there was information about my sister that she didn't want

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Speaker 3: out in the public domain. Right. There was commentary about

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Speaker 3: her body image, her weight, sruggles with her body image.

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Speaker 3: Mind you, this was nine years ago, and I think

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Speaker 3: that we've made progress as a society towards, you know,

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Speaker 3: becoming more inclusive of people's bodies and particularly around representation

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Speaker 3: of different types of women in the media. But at

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Speaker 3: the same time, it's just horrible when you think about it.

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Speaker 3: It's just it doesn't it's not right, or it's not

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Speaker 3: morally justified that the media would engage in that way.

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Speaker 3: And other things happened that just shocked me to my core.

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Speaker 3: There was a mistake made by the court which allowed

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Speaker 3: for certain pieces of evidence to then be released into

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Speaker 3: the media, and so there were certain mainstream media outlets

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Speaker 3: that continued to publish it until they were, you know,

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Speaker 3: explicitly ordered not to. And it just it shocks me

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Speaker 3: that we can live in a climate where this kind

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Speaker 3: of sealacious appetite occurs and the media is able to operate.

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Speaker 3: And I say media, being conscious that we're not talking

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Speaker 3: about media as a monolith. You know, not all media

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Speaker 3: acts in this way, but certainly enough of the media,

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Speaker 3: or enough of the media where people primarily get their

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Speaker 3: new sources from, acts in such a way that actually

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Speaker 3: enables misinformation to spread, right, it enables myths around causes

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Speaker 3: of violence to spread. For example, the way that the

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Speaker 3: media reported in the case of my sister's murder did

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Speaker 3: a disservice not only to my sister or my family

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Speaker 3: or you know, Nikki and my parents, but to all

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Speaker 3: victim survivors living with domestic abuse. And violence in the home, right,

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Speaker 3: it undermined the experiences of so many resilient predominantly women,

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Speaker 3: but so many resilient people who are living with constant

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Speaker 3: coocive control and abuse and violence. Right. And the way

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Speaker 3: that it was reduced to my sister's decision to leave

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Speaker 3: him was just so reductive and unhelpful in terms of

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Speaker 3: understanding what are the causes of violence in those gender

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Speaker 3: based violence situations?

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Speaker 2: And so, what do you see as the media's responsibility

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Speaker 2: in a situation like this, because you know, you said

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Speaker 2: that it's been nine years and that some progress has

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Speaker 2: been made, but clearly not enough progress has been made.

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Speaker 2: We still see stories and read stories like the ones

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Speaker 2: you've just mentioned. What do you believe the responsibility of

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Speaker 2: the media in this situation is?

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Speaker 3: I think foremost media has a responsibility to act ethically, right,

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Speaker 3: And maybe I'm too idealistic, right when I envision the

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Speaker 3: media as being like the fourth es Day and you know,

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Speaker 3: giving truth to power or however the saying goes. I

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Speaker 3: just part of me wants a better kind of media

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Speaker 3: in Australia. Part of me thinks that we deserve that.

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Speaker 3: And you know, if we look at and you know,

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Speaker 3: all this, Zara, but like when we look at like

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Speaker 3: the way that people are going off certain mainstream media,

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Speaker 3: when we look at where young people get their media

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Speaker 3: in particular, they want something else. They're actively seeking something else.

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Speaker 3: And if not for the way that the media works

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Speaker 3: in this country in terms of how it's owned and

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Speaker 3: how it's concentrated, I don't think that they're messaging would

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Speaker 3: have the kind of cut through that they're used to

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Speaker 3: getting because I think people would, you know, seek out

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Speaker 3: alternate sources. And so I think the media's responsibility in

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Speaker 3: order to remain relevant, in order to remain actually something

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Speaker 3: that people want to seek out, is to provide an

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Speaker 3: avenue for education, awareness, truth, you know, and to not

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Speaker 3: have to be first. And then you've got then you

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Speaker 3: factor in the usual trope of what types of perpetrators,

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Speaker 3: you know, was it a person of color? Then they

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Speaker 3: may have like religious, ideological terrorist motivations, right, And then

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Speaker 3: we get to the thing that I feel so strongly about,

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Speaker 3: which is the way that victims and their families are

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Speaker 3: treated by the media and the fact that doctor Ashleigod's

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Speaker 3: family had to make that request multiple times in order

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Speaker 3: for it to be listened to, particularly in the context

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Speaker 3: of one of the single most violent situations in recent

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Speaker 3: Australian history. You know that they had to really go

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Speaker 3: out of their way to be listened to. That speaks

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Speaker 3: volumes about a media that has such power that they

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Speaker 3: don't have to give regard to victims at all.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned this race to be first, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I think it's one thing for listeners to be on

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Speaker 2: I guess the consumption side of that, to be reading

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Speaker 2: the stories and to be either accepting or not accepting

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Speaker 2: how those stories came to be. But you have an

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Speaker 2: entirely different experience having been the person who journalists were

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Speaker 2: approaching and while your family was grieving and dealing with

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Speaker 2: that trauma, having to, you know, answer journalists' questions or

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Speaker 2: not answer their questions. What was it like dealing with

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Speaker 2: journalists at that time?

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Speaker 3: Oh, I was horrible. It was horrible. There were a

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Speaker 3: handful of exceptions where it wasn't right, and they're the

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Speaker 3: ones that years on I think about because if I

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Speaker 3: actually think about the experiences as a whole, they were

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Speaker 3: mostly negative. Right. They were being hounded by SMSs and

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Speaker 3: phone calls and if you wouldn't pick up once, then

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Speaker 3: five minutes later they'd ring again and again, and then

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Speaker 3: they'd ring from a private number, and then they'd ring

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Speaker 3: from another mobile number. And when you are going through

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Speaker 3: that situation, right particularly, what was unique in ours, you know,

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Speaker 3: family scenario, was that my sister was so beloved, right.

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Speaker 3: And I've said this before that, like, you know, prior

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Speaker 3: to Nicki's death, she was very much like the favorite

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Speaker 3: within the broader South Asian community. I was tolerated because

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Speaker 3: people were my parents, but Nicki was loved right, And

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Speaker 3: so in that way, it like there were so many

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Speaker 3: people that wanted to offer their condolences, and so there

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Speaker 3: was many people reaching out, and I was trying to

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Speaker 3: manage all this right for myself, my family, my parents,

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Speaker 3: and in amongst all of this happening, right as well

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Speaker 3: as the shock and the grief and the senselessness of

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Speaker 3: trying to understand and piece together what has actually transpired,

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Speaker 3: You've got these journalists who are calling for an immediate

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Speaker 3: scoop and they've got information about your family, and you

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Speaker 3: don't know where they got it from. You don't know

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Speaker 3: who's given a phone number or where they got things from,

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Speaker 3: but they seemingly know more about you than you've ever

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Speaker 3: remember putting out there, right, And so it's kind of

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Speaker 3: terrifying in a way because they've got all this stuff

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Speaker 3: on you. They've got all this stuff on your like

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Speaker 3: in my case, on my sister Nikki, and they weren't

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Speaker 3: afraid to say it, to use it and to and

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Speaker 3: to act in ways where when they couldn't get information

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Speaker 3: from us quickly enough to publish, they turned to social media, right,

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Speaker 3: and they'd go what's publicly accessible through Facebook or through

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Speaker 3: Instagram or through past posts, and they'd create a narrative

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Speaker 3: around that that literally fabricate stories out of nothing or

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Speaker 3: out of a single post that had no basis in fact.

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Speaker 3: And it was sort of like it's terrifying when you

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Speaker 3: think about it, because it's like no one wishes a

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Speaker 3: tragedy on anyone, but let's say something happened, something horrible

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Speaker 3: happens to someone, and then they have absolutely no control

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Speaker 3: over it, right. And so what I think really lingers

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Speaker 3: with you is that this feeling of betrayal and this

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Speaker 3: sense that the media is meant to you know, or

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Speaker 3: they'll say that they're there to tell the stories of,

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Speaker 3: you know, people who've suffered tragedy, but unless they're getting

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Speaker 3: what they need in order to get the clicks, in

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Speaker 3: order to generate headlines, then they're not that interested. And

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Speaker 3: so what lingers with you is this sense of betrayal.

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Speaker 3: And what you focus on, you know, nearly a decade later,

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Speaker 3: is the positive interactions with journalists. And I can count

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Speaker 3: them on one hand, right, and those those particular individuals

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Speaker 3: I have such profound respect for because I know that

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Speaker 3: in order to do the jobs that they did working

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Speaker 3: in the large media organizations that they have, they would

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Speaker 3: have had to, you know, stick their necks out right,

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Speaker 3: they would have had to act according to their own

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Speaker 3: value system and their own sense of integrity because the

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Speaker 3: way that the media collectively reports. We saw that through

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Speaker 3: what happened in Bondai that there is that ethics is

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Speaker 3: the last consideration for them.

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Speaker 2: I've heard you say before on a podcast that you

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Speaker 2: had one journalist reach out to you and apologize for

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Speaker 2: the way that they interacted with you shortly after. I

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Speaker 2: mean that obviously takes quite a bit of reflection on

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Speaker 2: the journalist's end. Do you think that the industry can

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Speaker 2: get there? Do you think that the industry as a whole, like,

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Speaker 2: are you optimistic that we can have a better media.

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Speaker 3: I'd like to be I'd like to be optimistic, but

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Speaker 3: I'm also conscious and quite a realist about the situation

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Speaker 3: of media and particularly media ownership in Australia. I don't

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Speaker 3: think that we can have a media that we're all

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Speaker 3: proud of if it stays the way it is, because

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Speaker 3: often the issue doesn't lie with individual journalists. You know,

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Speaker 3: when we see problematic headlines, for example, there'll always be

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Speaker 3: a social media uproar followed by nothing changes. And the

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Speaker 3: reason that nothing changes is because often the journalists aren't

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Speaker 3: riding the headlines. It is editors. You know, it's been

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Speaker 3: sub edited, and often you know, even above the sub editors,

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Speaker 3: there's often people who work in these officers who have

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Speaker 3: paid fancy, you know, very high salaries, who are responsible

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Speaker 3: for the ownership side of things, right, and they have

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Speaker 3: a lot of sway, they have a lot of power.

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Speaker 3: And I think that as long as media remains the

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Speaker 3: way that it is in Australia, where we have an

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Speaker 3: absence of quality independent news journalism right, we will not see,

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Speaker 3: you know, a seismic shift in the way that this operates.

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Speaker 3: We'll see incremental progress. And so I think it's very

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Speaker 3: powerful whenever I hear or see a journalist who has

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Speaker 3: reflected on, you know, past stories. But I don't lay

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Speaker 3: blame squarely at the feet of any particular journalist, with

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Speaker 3: a few exceptions, that anyone is looking to just incite

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Speaker 3: things in the public. I think that mostly most journalists

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Speaker 3: are well intentioned, and they sometimes get it wrong. But

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Speaker 3: at the same time, the system rewards, the media industry

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Speaker 3: rewards people who buy into that sensationalism and who buy

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Speaker 3: into things that cause harm turing.

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Speaker 2: You spoke earlier about the fact that your family and

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Speaker 2: certainly Nikki, didn't get any control over the way that

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Speaker 2: her story was told, and that the media got to

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Speaker 2: control what the public knew about your sister. What do

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Speaker 2: you wish the public could have known about her? What

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Speaker 2: would you want to tell listeners who want to learn

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Speaker 2: about her that you wish the media had told back then?

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Speaker 3: Oh? What a what a beautiful questions are? It also

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Speaker 3: requires me to think and say nice things about my sister.

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Speaker 3: I think I think there's no shortage of nice things

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Speaker 3: being said about my sister in the public now. I

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Speaker 3: would like people to know that she was very annoying.

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Speaker 2: Very standard brotherly response there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she was she was tremendously annoying, but cute but

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Speaker 3: more annoying, no, I think I think you know. One

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Speaker 3: of the things about the way the media reports, and

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Speaker 3: we saw this with the way that so many women

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Speaker 3: who were killed in Bondai, how they were spoken about

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Speaker 3: by extension to a man in their life, you know,

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Speaker 3: whether it was their father, their brother, or some you know,

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Speaker 3: it was just by connection, right. And one of the

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Speaker 3: things that I want people to know about my sister

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Speaker 3: is that she was a person in her own right,

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Speaker 3: that Nicki was a human being who you know, when

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Speaker 3: people say that they know Nicki's story, often they know

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Speaker 3: a headline or a few news articles, which is the

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Speaker 3: story of her killer, really right, it's his choice to

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Speaker 3: take her life. Her stories that she was a performing

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Speaker 3: artist and a choreographer and a dancer, and she was

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Speaker 3: classically trained in Indian dancing and classical Indian dancing, and

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Speaker 3: that she loved art and performance and theater and friendships

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Speaker 3: and community and that was who she was, right, That

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Speaker 3: she was kind of spirit and generous with her time

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Speaker 3: and her energy, and that she was a human being

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Speaker 3: who matted right. But those aren't the stories that the

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Speaker 3: Australian media tells if we were to honor all the

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Speaker 3: victims of mal violence in particular, even since like nine

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Speaker 3: years ago when my sister was murdered, we would have

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Speaker 3: Britannica lengths of just beautiful stories about so many wonderful

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Speaker 3: human beings. And yet we have more stories about how

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Speaker 3: men who kill might have been good blokes or might

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Speaker 3: have had promising football careers, etc. And it's really worrying

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Speaker 3: that that's the way that the media and Australia in

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Speaker 3: particular operates, you know. So I think we've got a

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Speaker 3: long long way to go, and I'm only I'm sort

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Speaker 3: of hope full and cautiously optimistic that maybe the events

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Speaker 3: of Bondai have signaled a shift, because we've seen the

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Speaker 3: public outcry in terms of how some of these tragedies

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Speaker 3: have been reported, and so I'd like to see that continue.

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Speaker 3: And I'm really grateful as well to use Zara and

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Speaker 3: to the whole Daily Ods team for the way that

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Speaker 3: you've sort of approached this tragedy and done so in

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Speaker 3: a way that's ethical first. And you may not have

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Speaker 3: had the first post on social media, but you get

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Speaker 3: the most like good faith engagement because you actually care,

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Speaker 3: and I think that that's what's missing in a lot

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Speaker 3: of Australian media, is actually caring. But just as I

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Speaker 3: was saying earlier, I don't think without changing the way

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Speaker 3: that things operate in Australian media that that's actually going

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Speaker 3: to shift for the long term.

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Speaker 2: I do hope that we can be part of the change.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the advocacy that you do in calling

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Speaker 2: out bad or irresponsible news reporting is going such a

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Speaker 2: long way, I think to helping everyone else try and

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Speaker 2: understand these things critically. So thank you for your work

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Speaker 2: in that area, and to thank you for speaking to

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Speaker 2: us today. I so appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Sarah.

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Speaker 1: What an amazing advocate terrang is and it's something that

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Speaker 1: we all need to keep in mind, both us in

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Speaker 1: the media but also all of us who consume media.

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Speaker 1: This is a really important conversation to be having. And

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Speaker 1: if you or anyone you know need someone to talk to,

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Speaker 1: you can call one eight hundred respects. They're available twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours, seven days a week and their number is

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Speaker 1: one eight hundred seven three seven seven three to two.

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Speaker 1: That's all I've got time for today. We'll speak to

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Speaker 1: you tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 3: Bungelung Kalguttin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 3: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 3: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 3: Strait island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 3: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.