1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: Bunjelungkalguttin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges that 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: Island and nations. We pay our respects to the first 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os It's Thursday, 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: the seventeenth of November. 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 3: I'm Sam, and a very husky Sam that I'm Tzara. 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: It's not surprising I'm a little bit husky after the 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 2: twenty four hours of news that we've had. It's been 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 2: a busy one. Developments in the Russia Ukraine conflict yesterday 13 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: had the world on edge at. 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: The reports of two rockets and missiles landing on Polish territories. 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 4: To have landed in territory under NATO protection, reportedly killing 16 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 4: two people. 17 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 3: All these basically holding its breath now to see how 18 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 3: NATO will respond. 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 2: We've been crystal clear that we will defend every inch 20 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 2: of NATO territory. Initial reports of this event were saying 21 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: the missile was quote Russian made, but Russia denied their 22 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: involvement in the blast, and over the course of yesterday 23 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: we heard that the missile was actually fired by Ukrainian 24 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 2: forces against an incoming Russian attack. Ukraine has been facing 25 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 2: a barrage of missiles this past week, but it took 26 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: one landing in Poland to really get the world's attention. 27 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 2: In today's deep dive, we're going to look at why first, Sarah, 28 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 2: what's making headlines this morning. 29 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 3: Wages grew by three point one percent in the twelve 30 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 3: months up to September twenty twenty two, and that is 31 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 3: according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics. But at the 32 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 3: same time, prices have risen by seven point three percent 33 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 3: and that has resulted in a four point two percent 34 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 3: fall in real wages. 35 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: Coercive control will now be a criminal offense in New 36 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: South Wales. Premier Dominic Perite said the new legislation would 37 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: quote help safe lives and deter an abusive and controlling 38 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: pattern of behavior now. The legislation attracted criticism from the 39 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: domestic violence sector, with Domestic Violence New South Wales Acting 40 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 2: CEO Renada Field suggesting it doesn't consider relationships outside of 41 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 2: former and current intimate partners, which quote actively excludes multiple 42 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 2: forms of abuse suffered by victims survivors. 43 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 3: Feels like groundhog Day, But yesterday we had news from 44 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 3: Donald Trump, who launched his presidential bid for the twenty 45 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 3: twenty four US election from his marri Lago club in Florida. 46 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: In order to make America great and glorious again, I 47 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 2: am tonight announcing my candidacy for President of the United States. 48 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 3: It is not a done deal, though, Trump still needs 49 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 3: to win the nomination from the Republican Party to then 50 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 3: go ahead and run in the presidential election in twenty 51 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 3: twenty four. 52 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 2: And today's good news, A sustainable energy generator in Scotland 53 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: has surpassed expectations by twenty percent during its six month trial. 54 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 2: Device generates power through the passing of waves and is 55 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 2: set for further trials next year. We woke up yesterday 56 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 2: to reports that a Russian missile had crossed Ukraine's border 57 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: and killed two people in Poland. We now believe that 58 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: the missile was not in fact from Russia, but actually 59 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: a Ukrainian missile sent to intercept a Russian one. The 60 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 2: blast came in the context of around ninety missiles being 61 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: fired at Ukraine by Russia, particularly targeting utilities and electrical 62 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: supplies in the country. But this initial story that a 63 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: Russian missile had landed in Poland immediately had the world's attention. 64 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 4: For the first time in the Ukrainian conflict, a Russian 65 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 4: missile is said to have landed in territory under NATO protection. 66 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: Again, we now think this isn't what happened, But I 67 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: think it's worth having a discussion about why we saw 68 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: the reactions from around the world that we did because 69 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: the missile landed in a NATO country. 70 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: All right, So should we start with what NATO actually is, 71 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 3: because central to this story is this idea of NATO 72 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 3: and the powers that come with it. 73 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: We love an acronym here in international affairs land. So 74 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: NATO is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and it's a 75 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: Western military alliance. And at its heart, it's a group 76 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 2: of countries that have made a promise to each other 77 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: after the Soviet Union collapse. There were sixteen countries in 78 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: this initial membership and basically the high level reason it 79 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: exists is to stop another world war from happening. That 80 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: group of sixteen countries has now expanded to thirty, including 81 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 2: several in Eastern Europe, which is the region we're talking 82 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: about today. Now it's not just European nations in NATO. 83 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 2: It also includes the US and Canada. Australia isn't in NATO, 84 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 2: but we like to think of ourselves as an ally 85 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: or a friend of NATO, NATO adjacent exactly. And when 86 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 2: you sign up to be a member state of NATO, 87 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 2: you sign on to the NATO Convention and there's a 88 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: list of articles in that and the two really important 89 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: ones today to think about a number four and five. 90 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,559 Speaker 3: All right, let's take both of those one by one. 91 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 3: So what's article four? 92 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: So Article four is short and sweet. It basically states 93 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: that when, in the opinion of any of these member 94 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 2: states they feel a sense of threat, that they'll sit 95 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 2: down and discuss the threat. 96 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: If Article four is the meeting of these NATO nations 97 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 3: to discuss whatever the event is, where do they go 98 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:21,799 Speaker 3: from there. 99 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 2: Well, there's always the option of going to the protocols 100 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: outlined in Article five. Now, Article five comes into play 101 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: when there is an armed attack against one or more 102 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: of the member states. And essentially the big idea here 103 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: is that members commit to what they call collective defense 104 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 2: if any member state is attacked. The exact wording of 105 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 2: the article is that the parties agree that an armed 106 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: attack against one or more of them shall be considered 107 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 2: an attack against them all. And so whilst the wording 108 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: commits NATO members to defend another member who is attacked, 109 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: there is a little bit of freedom to decide what 110 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: that defense will look like. It doesn't specifically commit NATO 111 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: states to specific actions like a ground invasion or an 112 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: air strike. It could be a cyber defense if the 113 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: particular threat is online. 114 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 3: Okay, you're talking in hypotheticals there. What are some of 115 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 3: the examples of when Article five has been invoked. 116 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: Well, the first time the Article five actions were invoked 117 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: was around the nine to eleven attacks where the Twin 118 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: Towers in New York were attacked by arkader and that 119 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: response twenty one years ago included deploying NATO aircraft to 120 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 2: patrol the skies over the US and some NATO Navy 121 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: forces were sent to the eastern Mediterranean to detect and 122 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: deter terrorist activity. And that was really that idea coming 123 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 2: through that an attack on one was an attack on all. 124 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 3: We'll be back in just a moment, but first a 125 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 3: message from our sponsor. So, coming back to the Russia 126 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 3: Ukraine conflict, what role has NATO played so far? 127 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: Well, in some ways, NATO was actually one of the 128 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: roots of this conflict, and particularly about whether Ukraine should 129 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: be in NATO or not. Ukraine really wants to be 130 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: in NATO, and it was promised in two thousand and 131 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: eight that it would eventually be given the opportunity to 132 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,239 Speaker 2: join the coalition. But Putin over on Russia's side, claims 133 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: the West promised in the nineties that NATO wouldn't get 134 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: any closer to Russia than it originally was, And part 135 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: of the issue here is that if Ukraine did join NATO, 136 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: it would be then a NATO country bordering Russia, which 137 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: Putin doesn't want. Now. It's interesting to note Western governments 138 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: deny this promise was ever made, but there is a 139 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: narrative amongst Russian officials that the West cheated Russia. As 140 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: a result of all of that, NATO's role in this 141 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: conflict has been a little bit uncertain. NATO members have 142 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 2: provided some elements of collective defense during the Ukraine War, 143 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: despite the fact that Ukraine isn't strictly a NATO country. 144 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 2: NATO troops are already stationed though in NATO countries bordering 145 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: Russia and Ukraine, and NATO countries have provided some weapons 146 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: and support on the ground in Ukraine, but they haven't 147 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: sent military forces there. Whilst this conflict has been going on, 148 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,119 Speaker 2: Ukrainian President Vlod Miszelenski has been constantly asking for further 149 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: assistance from NATO, and what he really wants is a 150 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: no fly zone to protect Ukraine but also the surrounding countries, 151 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: including Poland. That request hasn't been answered by NATO, and 152 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: the reason why, essentially is that they don't want to 153 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: escalate the war any further or any quicker. But the 154 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: missile striking Poland prompted an immediate response from Ukraine's defense minister. 155 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: On Twitter, he said that that's exactly why they wanted 156 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: NATO to close the skies. 157 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 3: Okay, So that's what Ukraine was saying when we all 158 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 3: thought that the missile had come from Russia. What were 159 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 3: other world leaders saying? 160 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if you'd call it a stroke 161 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 2: of luck, but it certainly was fortuitous that while all 162 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: of this was happening, world leaders were gathered in Bali 163 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: for the g twenties, So for them to call a 164 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: snap meeting of world leaders actually wasn't that difficult, And 165 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: that's exactly what they did. That's where we had this 166 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 2: agreement to launch an investigation into the missile attack to 167 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 2: determine exactly what happened. We heard immediately after the meeting 168 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 2: from US President Joe Biden, who said some preliminary information 169 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: contests the missile was fired by Russia. And a while 170 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 2: after this, the Associated Press reported that three anonymous US 171 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: officials said preliminary assessments suggested the missile was fired by 172 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: Ukrainian forces at an incoming Russian one. So it's fair 173 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: to say we're in a better position than we thought 174 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 2: we would be yesterday morning, Zara. But what this whole 175 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: exercise has proven is just how different the consequences are 176 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 2: when a missile lands in a NATO country. You know, 177 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 2: right from the very moment where Russia sent their first 178 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: missile into Ukraine back in February, the idea of a 179 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 2: missile landing in a NATO country was always seen as 180 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,599 Speaker 2: this kind of end of the tunnel idea. And I 181 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 2: think where the world got really scared yesterday was we 182 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 2: thought that eventuated, and now that we know some more 183 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: facts and we know that it didn't eventuate in the 184 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: way that we thought it did, but it's dangerously close. 185 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us today on the Daily OS. If 186 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 3: you learned something from the episode, there's a quick and 187 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 3: easy way to help us keep making you your daily 188 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 3: shot of audio and news. Give us a rating and 189 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: review wherever you do your podcast listening. It helps others 190 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 3: find us. We'll be back again tomorrow. See you then.