1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calkatin woman from Gadigl country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily ODS. It's Friday, 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: the ninth of December. 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 3: I'm Zara and I'm top. 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 2: German authorities have stopped a plot from a far right 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: terrorist group to storm their capital, arrest lawmakers and execute 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: the chancellor. Twenty five alleged co conspirators have been arrested. 13 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: So in today's deep dive, we're going to look at 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: who these people are, what they were planning, and what 15 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 2: it means for us here in Australia. But first Tom 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: the headlines Wilzara. 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 3: The federal government will establish an Environmental Protection Agency to 18 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 3: enforce Australia's environmental protection laws. It's one of several changes 19 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 3: announced yesterday by Environment Minister Tanya Plibasek in response to 20 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 3: an independent review which found that the existing laws are 21 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 3: outdated and need fundamental reform. 22 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: Cyber Security Minister Clara O'Neil has said the Federal government 23 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 2: will develop a new strategy to protect osie's from cyber attacks. 24 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: While speaking yesterday at the National Press Club, O'Neil said 25 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 2: Australia was unnecessarily vulnerable in cybersecurity and that the new 26 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 2: strategy would help protect our citizens and our economy. 27 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: It will help us build sovereign capabilities in cybersecurity because 28 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: this is something Australia must be able to do for itself. 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 3: The bomb maker behind the two thousand and two Bali 30 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 3: terror attack that killed two hundred and two people has 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 3: been released from prison after serving just over half of 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 3: his twenty year sentence. Whom Arptek was sentenced to prison 33 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 3: in twenty twelve. He will remain on parole until April 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 3: twenty thirty. Australian Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister Richard 35 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 3: Miles said it would be a difficult day for Australia. 36 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: And today's good news. Mandy Walker has become the first 37 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 2: woman ever to win Best Cinematography at the Actors for 38 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: her work on Baslohmann's Elvis film. 39 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: What a great honor it is to be the first 40 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: woman to win this award, and hopefully it opens the 41 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: door for many more. 42 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 2: Okay, So on Wednesday night, our time, German special forces 43 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: undertook simultaneous raids across Europe, arresting twenty five people. These 44 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: people are suspected of planning to overthrow the German government. Now, Tom, 45 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: I have so many questions about this story, but I 46 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: think that a natural starting point is who these people 47 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 2: actually are. 48 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 3: Yes, just casually plotting to overthrow the government. Just another 49 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 3: day in Germany. 50 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: Another day in the news. 51 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 3: So at the heart of it all, Zara seems to 52 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: be a terrorist organization which has its roots in I 53 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 3: guess the extremest fringes of German politics. So one of 54 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 3: the key movements at the base of this is called 55 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 3: the Reichsburger movement. I apologize to any German speakers if 56 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 3: I'm mispronouncing that. It's a movement that's been around for 57 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: a long time that basically believes the German government is 58 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 3: illegitimate and that it has been illegitimate since World War II. 59 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 3: World War II obviously Nazi Germany, this group has been 60 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: associated with a lot of anti Semitic conspiracy theories and 61 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 3: Nazi related conspiracy theories for a long time, and this 62 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: was language that came up in a lot of what 63 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 3: I read over the last couple of days. Obviously I 64 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 3: wasn't intimately familiar with the Reichsburger movement before this, but 65 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 3: a lot of the writers who have have been using 66 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 3: words like harmless, cranks and crackpots that this group was 67 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: viewed as sort of a bit of a curiosity on 68 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 3: the side, on the fringes of German politics, perhaps by 69 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 3: some people not taken all that seriously. German intelligence forces 70 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: said that they weren't really viewed that they were viewed 71 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 3: as harmless. Basically, that group has sort of joined forces 72 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 3: with a bunch of other, I guess more conspiracy theories. 73 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 3: So there's an element of Q and on deep state 74 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories here. For those who aren't familiar with Q 75 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: and ON. It really has its links to America, to 76 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 3: the politics of Donald Trump, to the January sixth riots, 77 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 3: and to the view the collection of deep state operators 78 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 3: are secretly running the world. So some of that thinking 79 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 3: has been transplanted and applied again to the fringe of 80 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 3: German politics and German thinking and then even some COVID 81 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 3: anti vaccine conspiracy theories, a number of different kind of 82 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 3: extremist ideas that seem to be motivating this group of 83 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 3: about twenty five people, and they are believed to be 84 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 3: some more working with them who are plotting to overthrow 85 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 3: the German government. 86 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: Okay, so it's this group that has kind of overlapping 87 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: extremist tendencies. What do we know about what they were 88 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: planning to actually do? 89 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 3: So they seem to have been planning to install their 90 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 3: own alternative government. They had picked a leader. The leader's 91 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 3: name is Heinrich the thirteenth. He identifies as a prince. 92 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 3: He's got some long running connection to an old and 93 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 3: now minor German royal family. His family describe him as 94 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 3: a bit of a sort of confused man who's doubled 95 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 3: in conspiracy theories. He's been swept up in this and 96 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 3: appointed as the potential new leader for this rebel German government. 97 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 3: They've appointed a whole ministry. There's a former far right 98 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 3: German politician who is a current judge who had agreed 99 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: to be their justice minister. There was a prominent lawyer 100 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 3: who had agreed to be their foreign minister. They will 101 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 3: believe to have a number of ex military personnel and 102 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 3: police operating within them to help them with this coup. 103 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 3: And the plan to begin with was to storm the 104 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 3: German parliament, the Bundestag, and to take the government by force. 105 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 3: And the German federal prosecutors made it quite clear that 106 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 3: from the investigations that they'd carried out and what they 107 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 3: knew of this plot, that this group was willing to 108 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 3: kill government officials, potentially including the Chancellor Olaf Schultz to 109 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 3: achieve their mission. And so the plan was really to 110 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 3: attempt the violent overthrow of what they believed to be 111 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 3: in a legitimate German government and to install themselves instead. 112 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: What actually led up to this raid? Have authorities been 113 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: watching this group for a while. 114 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 3: So authorities have been watching them for some time. I 115 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 3: mentioned that a lot of these radical elements have been 116 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 3: around in Germany for some time, even if they were 117 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 3: originally regarded as I suppose harmless, authorities had been becoming 118 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 3: concerned that this group was starting to radicalize in a 119 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 3: really dangerous way, stockpiling weapons and firearms. There was evidence 120 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 3: that they were training some of their members in sort 121 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 3: of shooting drills and that kind of thing and I 122 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 3: guess preparing for war. In twenty sixteen, there was a 123 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 3: police officer who was allegedly shot by someone associated with 124 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 3: the Reichsberger movement, and so there were sort of beginnings 125 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 3: of I suppose, more violent plots. Earlier this year there 126 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: was a terrorist group it seems to be a different 127 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 3: terrorist group, but also with connections to Reichsberger, which were 128 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 3: foiled in a plot to kidnap the health minister. I 129 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: guess that starts to get into COVID conspiracies and anti 130 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 3: vax conspiracies and some of that side of the scale. 131 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 3: So there were growing senses that this group was becoming 132 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: more and more dangerous. But it's also clear that this plan, 133 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 3: which authorities have been keeping an eye on and which 134 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 3: have now moved to arrest some of the plotters, that 135 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 3: this was a significant escalation. 136 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: So obviously we can see the immediate reaction to this threat, 137 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: but I'm keen to understand how the government has responded 138 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: more broadly to this extremist movement. 139 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, in the short term there may be 140 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 3: more arrests to come Zara. There's some suggestion that they 141 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 3: think there are more people out there connected to this group. 142 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 3: But more broadly, as you say, the government's reacted very 143 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 3: strongly against what it calls the enemies of democracy and 144 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: said that it's really willing to do everything it needs 145 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 3: to do to defend itself. So the German Interior Minister, 146 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 3: Nancy Faser gave some fairly strongly worded comments yesterday. She 147 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 3: said that this group was driven by fantasies of violent 148 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 3: overthrow and conspiracy ideology. They show hatred of democracy, our 149 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 3: state and people who stand up for our community. Clearly 150 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 3: a threat that the German government's taking really very seriously. 151 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 3: And I suppose I mentioned earlier some of those concerns 152 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 3: that they've had over the last few years about these 153 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: sorts of groups radicalized. It's clear that this is I suppose, 154 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 3: alerted them to a really significant threat. 155 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 2: Tom. So what do you think the implications are of 156 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: this outside of Germany, perhaps for the rest of the world. 157 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, this all does sound a little bit familiar, 158 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 3: doesn't it. It has a lot of echoes of America, of 159 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 3: the QAnon movement there, and of what happened in January sixth, 160 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 3: the storming of the Capitol. It also, i suppose, reminds 161 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 3: us of the rise of fringe right views and extremist 162 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 3: politics in Australia as well. This is a trend that 163 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 3: we're seeing all over the world. I think what is 164 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 3: fascinating to me here is two things really. Firstly, the 165 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 3: way that this is just this collection of all of 166 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 3: these different conspiracy theories. So anti VAX's ideas have always 167 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 3: been out there, Conspiracies about you know, who's running the 168 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 3: government have always been out there. This Reichsberger movement in 169 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 3: Germany is clearly quite a specific German thing, but movements 170 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 3: like this have always existed. But what we're seeing really 171 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 3: across the world in the last few years is all 172 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: of these kind of accelerating and radical and also finding 173 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 3: one another. You know, we see in Australia a lot 174 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,239 Speaker 3: of the anti VAXX movement has links to neo Nazi ideologies, 175 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 3: and a lot of the parties and people associated with 176 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 3: those movements that have sort of found one another in 177 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 3: the last couple of years over the course of the pandemic. 178 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 3: In America, in particular during the Trump presidency, what we 179 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 3: saw on January six this kind of snowballing effect of 180 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 3: different conspiracy theory groups in society, The kind of people 181 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 3: I guess that language that a lot of German writers 182 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: were using about our crackpots and odd balls that people 183 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 3: used to think these groups were. No one is really 184 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 3: saying that now, not just in Germany but around the world, 185 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 3: and that snowballing is turning violent with greater frequency. We've 186 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 3: seen We've seen a spike in I suppose white nationalists 187 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 3: terror attacks if you think back to the attacks in 188 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 3: christ Church a couple of years ago. We've seen more 189 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 3: extremist violence across the world. We saw on January sixth 190 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 3: in America. You know what happens when these groups are 191 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: not just I suppose, saying really crazy things in online 192 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 3: chat forums, they're actually willing to take that out onto 193 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 3: the streets and commit actual acts of violence. In this case, 194 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: that didn't happen. This was foiled before it happened, but 195 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 3: I think that it's a really important thing to reflect on. 196 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 3: I don't think anyone believes that this group was successfully 197 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 3: going to overthrow the German government, but pretty clearly they 198 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 3: were willing to kill people and they may well have 199 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 3: done that. 200 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us on the Daily Oz. If you 201 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: learned something from today's episode, don't forget to hit subscribe 202 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 2: so there's a TDA episode waiting for you every weekday morning. 203 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 2: We'll be back again on Monday. Have a wonderful weekend.