1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: When you hop on the internet looking for health advice, 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: you often find conflicting information. One day coffee is good 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: for you, the next day it's going to give you cancer. 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: You should be adding more of this than you should 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: be fasting longer. I mean, it could all get very confusing, 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: So thank goodness for people like doctor Norman. Swan Norman 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: is an award winning producer and broadcaster whose career began 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: in medicine, and since his arrival in Australia, he's been 9 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: keeping the Australian public informed with the latest information on 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: health and medical research. He's been a presenter on the 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: ABC's Catalyst and Quantum programs, as well as occasionally reporting 12 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: for The seven thirty Report and four Corners. He has 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: won four Walkley Awards, most recently for Corona Cast, a 14 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: daily podcast that he hosts with science journalist Tiggan Taylor, 15 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: which breaks down the latest news and answers questions about coronavirus. 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: And I'm personally a big fan of Corona Cast. So 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: how does Norman communicate complicated medical research to such a 18 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: broad audience and how does he stay on top of 19 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: the latest news and science on the topic of COVID 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: and with health in general. What are the habits and 21 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: behaviors that Norman swears by. My name is doctor Amantha Imbert. 22 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 23 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: consultancy invent Him, and this is how I work a 24 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: show about how to help you do your best work. 25 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: When we recorded. 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: This interview, Norman was in about week ten or eleven 27 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: of Sydney's lockdown, so I wanted to know what on 28 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: earth was getting him through a. 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 3: Lot of denial. 30 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 4: What's getting be through lockdown is just creeping from day 31 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 4: to day, moment to moment, hour to our task to task, 32 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 4: and trying not to think too far ahead. I mean, 33 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 4: I'm being paid to think far ahead, so people are 34 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 4: asking me for my opinions all the time, so it's 35 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 4: pretty hard to escape that. But in terms of my 36 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 4: own world, I really have a near term focus. 37 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: How do your health retains change during lockdown? 38 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 4: Pre lockdown, pre New South Wales outbreak. I would go 39 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 4: to the gym most days, and probably most days well, 40 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 4: I prefer to go to the gym early evening, but 41 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 4: I find that my daily schedule is so irregular that 42 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 4: early evening often means I don't end up doing it, 43 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 4: So I usually end up going to the gym first 44 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 4: thing in the morning before work, so early at six am, 45 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 4: sometimes five thirty am, and do the gym. Then I 46 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 4: don't enjoy it as much, don't feel as good as 47 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 4: it after it, but I need to get it done. 48 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 4: Post outbreak, I still try to do forty five minutes 49 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 4: most days of the week, and depending on the day, 50 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 4: I would probably mostly end up doing stairs and then 51 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 4: some seven minute workouts combination of seven seven minute workouts. 52 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 4: And for the first time in my life, I've bought 53 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 4: myself a yoga mat so I can do that outside. 54 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: That sounds very nice. And what other health through teens 55 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: change for you in terms of eating and drinking and 56 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: like what you're consuming. 57 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 4: Well, I'm an overeater and with poor appetite control, and 58 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 4: therefore it's a constant struggle for me to control eating. 59 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 4: And when you're indoors all the time. I'll tell you 60 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 4: in a nycdote that tells you everything, probably about me 61 00:03:54,160 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 4: is I was once house hunting, went to see a 62 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 4: house on display, or went to visit the house that 63 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 4: was open for inspection, and the agent came up to 64 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 4: me at one point and said excuse me. I was 65 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 4: in the kitchen and I'd actually opened the fridge. 66 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 3: And was kid was casing. 67 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 4: Into the fridge, and I hadn't realized that actually doing 68 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 4: that I was. 69 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 3: I was. 70 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 4: That wasn't during COVID. That was for covered with Glinton 71 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 4: Went's eye. But I guess you were saying sort of thing. 72 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 4: And so when I go to a party, and remember 73 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 4: when used to go to parties and there's finger food, 74 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,239 Speaker 4: remember you know, I've actually got to engage about fifty 75 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 4: percent of my brain in not picking up the finger food, 76 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 4: and then I've only got fifty percent of my brain 77 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 4: left for the conversation in the chat. So that gives 78 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 4: you a sense of when I'm in the indoors for 79 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 4: a lot of the time in lockdown, food becomes part 80 00:04:59,000 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 4: of the entertainment. 81 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 3: So I'm cooking more elaborate meals. 82 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 4: Like a lot of people, I'm addicted to the New 83 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 4: York Times cookbook or cooking website. 84 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 3: It's just really reliable. It's for busy people. 85 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 4: And if you want to roast a duck and roasted 86 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 4: simply and it doesn't feel or turkey or things like that, 87 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 4: they've just got all these recipes that work and so 88 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 4: I've been doing much more cooking moites, not reverting to 89 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 4: take away and. 90 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: What are some tricks or hacks that work for you 91 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: in terms of not constantly using food as entertainment. I 92 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: guess during lockdown because I can imagine that there are 93 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: so many people that are struggling with that. 94 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 4: What works for you, well, what works for you doesn't 95 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 4: necessarily apply to a lot of other people. So last 96 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 4: year I wrote a book, So you think you know 97 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 4: what's good for you? And that was occupational therapy, and 98 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 4: that also provided so essentially I used work as a distraction. 99 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 4: I mean the problem with broadcasting work is that it's unpredictable. Yes, 100 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 4: I've got my We've got Chrona casts every single day, 101 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 4: every day of the week apart from Friday and Saturday, 102 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 4: so Sunday through Thursday, and I've got the health report, 103 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 4: but there aren't very many other fixed points, and so 104 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 4: people phone you. 105 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 3: Like today for example my diari. 106 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 4: Look it's about gaps, and then I'm booked up to 107 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 4: do on air things and so that's unpredictable. But doing 108 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 4: a book gave me that I knew I had to 109 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 4: achieve a couple of thousand words a day. I set 110 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 4: aside that time and sat down and there was nothing 111 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 4: else there. My email went off, So it was almost 112 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 4: importantly meditative doing that, and that's what brought me through. 113 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 4: And I'm about to start a second book in the 114 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 4: same vein. I'm thinking, well, work last year, hopefully will 115 00:06:58,360 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 4: worked this year. 116 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: To ask with the book, which I must say I loved. 117 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: It's quite a tomb of a book. It's like just 118 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: over four hundred pages. I've got it here in front 119 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: of me, and the reference list is mighty long. There's 120 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: so much advice in the book and it's great and 121 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: I want to know, like for you after you know, 122 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: all these years of giving health advice and there's so 123 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: much content in the book and so much advice, like, 124 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: what are the top things that you really apply in 125 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: your own world? 126 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 4: Well, the first thing, the first rule that you learn 127 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 4: when you do mention is do as I say, but 128 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 4: not as I do. 129 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 3: And whilst there's you know, the blurb on the book 130 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 3: says you're a health guide, health advice that sort of. 131 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 4: Thing you won't actually find if you're looking for health advice, 132 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 4: not by this book. It's really it's in your syncratic 133 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 4: in the sense that I've always wanted to write a 134 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 4: kind of antidote to health books, and because the thing 135 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 4: that's missing. 136 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: From most books about health is. 137 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 4: Personal agency, so the recognizing that you're making decisions for 138 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 4: yourself and your own circumstances. 139 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:14,679 Speaker 3: You've got choices to make. 140 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 4: And often health books are really judgmental, and I just 141 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 4: wanted to give non judgmental information. And you pick and choose, 142 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 4: so you don't find very much advice in this, but 143 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 4: you'll find issues dealt with that you've wondered about, in 144 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 4: terms of nutrition, in terms of exercise, in terms of 145 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 4: what's bullshit and what's not. And I try and call 146 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 4: out bullshit, and it's up to you. I don't offer 147 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 4: actually any advice. I just suggest here's the evidence. If 148 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 4: you want to do X, you're not necessarily going to 149 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 4: do yourself any harm. You might not do yourself any 150 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 4: good either, but you know, and go for it. But 151 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 4: if you want to do why, you've got to think 152 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 4: three times about that, because you could do yourself some harm. 153 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: For people that I guess, you know, they're in lockdown 154 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: maybe or you know, if they're lucky, they're not in lockdown, 155 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: but they're looking to I guess incorporate a couple of 156 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: healthy habits into their daily routine, like what what are 157 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: a couple that give you the biggest bang for your 158 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: back if you. 159 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 4: Like well, I talked about the seven minute workout earlier there. 160 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 4: When I'm talking about exercise routine. You don't actually have 161 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 4: to exercise, Tomas. Only why you're exercising, you're excising to 162 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 4: lose weight and intend your wait. You probably do need 163 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 4: to do quite a lot each day, but if what 164 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 4: you're wanting is aerobic fitness, then you can actually go 165 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,359 Speaker 4: for short spurts of exercise. 166 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 3: So I. 167 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 4: Like the New York Times seven minute workout, So it's 168 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 4: very intense, it's short exercises, a remuscle group strengthens them 169 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 4: and I probably and I do two different versions of 170 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,719 Speaker 4: it each day. So I'll do the general one and 171 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 4: I'll do the abs or they are so that sort 172 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 4: of thing, and fifteen minutes, if I haven't got much time, 173 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 4: I'm done and dusted. 174 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 3: And feel really good. 175 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 4: So today it's a good example. Chooses are busy day, 176 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 4: very very busy days for me, and I'm on air 177 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 4: early morning, so I get up early and I do 178 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 4: two seven minute sessions. Certain sessions and fifteen minutes later, 179 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 4: I feel pretty good, and I feel tired and my 180 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 4: muscles are sore. It can't beat exercise as being the 181 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 4: medicine that you need to lift your mood to make 182 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 4: you feel better and actually to have physical benefits during 183 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 4: the psychological and physical benefits. And it really is hard, 184 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 4: and if you're not that fit, you do these exercises 185 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 4: at your own pace and build up from there, but 186 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 4: it's going to be you've got to push yourself. So 187 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 4: the idea while social contacts really important, and social support 188 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 4: and having people around you, particularly during lockdown, which is 189 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 4: hard to do when you do something like exercise, you 190 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 4: should it's not a casual what we're friends, it's actually 191 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 4: something you'll do the casual what we're friends on top, 192 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 4: but do the intense exercise that is actually going to 193 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 4: have huge benefits for you. 194 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: Now, your workday is sound very full on, particularly with 195 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: early starts, and then especially if at the other end 196 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: of the day you're doing some kind of a TV spot. 197 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: How do you manage your energy during the day aside 198 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: from your exercise routine. 199 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 4: Well, that's a very good question, and it depends on 200 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 4: how well I slept the night before. Often how I 201 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 4: feel and whether I've started with exercise. So starting with exercise, 202 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 4: intense exercise guess me through a lot of the day, 203 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 4: to be honest, even if I've had not a very 204 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 4: good night's sleep. So that's the first thing is exercise 205 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 4: doesn't wear me out, doesn't tire me. 206 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: It actually invigorates me for the rest of the day. 207 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 3: So a lot of people don't. 208 00:11:57,880 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 4: Do because they think we're going to be knackered, and 209 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 4: in fact the opposite occurs. The second thing is I 210 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 4: do use coffee, so I probably have two or three 211 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 4: shots in the morning. Criticize me for that, but I do. 212 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 4: That's probably more of our psychological series. If you're really tired, 213 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 4: it doesn't help you because you've just got the sort 214 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 4: of anxious kind of stimulation on top of the tiredness 215 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 4: because the coffee gives you. Coffee is best when you're 216 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 4: feeling pretty good and you just get that little extra fillip. 217 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 4: And if I'm feeling really tired midday, I nap. I'll 218 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 4: just have a five ten I'll find a corner on 219 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 4: a five ten minute nap. 220 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 3: I used to do it a lot. 221 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 4: I don't do it that much anymore, but I am 222 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 4: known within the ABC as an Olympic napper. 223 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: That's great, and so why only five to ten minutes 224 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: with the napping, So I. 225 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 4: Need I just I just think piece and quiet and 226 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 4: shut my eyes and just get a restorative. 227 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 3: Nap, and I'm good. 228 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 4: And in fact, even if I were, even if I'm 229 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 4: on holiday and I have an afternoon, an't not for 230 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 4: very long or. 231 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 3: Not for half an hour. I just don't. 232 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 4: I don't find that. I just don't sleep very long 233 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 4: during the day. But if I need to sleep, I'll 234 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 4: get it. But it's short and I'm refreshing, so I'll 235 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 4: just add something to the sleeping thing, because it's never 236 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 4: just one thing. In order to get to sleep in 237 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 4: a busy environment like an office, I practice a kind 238 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 4: of mindfulness meditation. 239 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 3: It's very amateur mindfulness meditation. 240 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 4: It's not the sort of entering your mind and thinking 241 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 4: through the things that come into your mind, which is 242 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 4: more of the psychodynamic aspect of mindfulness, which helps your 243 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 4: psychological well being. It's more focusing on a noise or 244 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 4: a sound or a thing in the environment, and that's 245 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 4: the only thing that you think about, and that sends 246 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 4: me to sleep very quickly. 247 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: Now back to coffee, because I do remember when I 248 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: read so you think you know what's good for you. 249 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: You do describe your cat been intake, and do you 250 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: love your coffee. But I'm intrigued by what you said 251 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: that coffee won't help when you're really, really tired. So 252 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: how can we use coffee strategically? 253 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that. 254 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 4: I think it's a mistake to think that you can 255 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 4: use coffee terribly strategically, which is why I focus on 256 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 4: ticket in the morning and I try not to have 257 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 4: a coffee after about eleven o'clock in the morning, just 258 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 4: because I don't want my evening sleep to be affected. 259 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 4: And I find that even a coffee in the afternoon 260 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 4: can stuff up my evening sleep, and I don't want 261 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 4: that to be the case, so I don't I don't 262 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 4: think that you if strategically you want to be awake 263 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 4: and up, I think the nap is the better idea 264 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 4: than coffee. You know, I'm probably addicted to caffeine and that, 265 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 4: you know, you get a bit of a headache if 266 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 4: I don't have coffee caffeine in the morning, So that's 267 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 4: part of what's going on there. So you're that's and 268 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 4: that's the devil the devil coffee, which is that you 269 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 4: can feel a bit lousy in the morning and it's 270 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 4: actually your caffeine deficit, and then once you've had your coffee, 271 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 4: you feel good, and that's a sign of dependency as well. 272 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 4: So I'm not sure how. I'm not sure that you. 273 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 4: I think it's overstating the use of coffee, that you 274 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 4: can use it strategically. And I'm kind of strongly against 275 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 4: the idea of using drugs, which caffeine is a drug 276 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 4: to fix up another problem. You should not use drugs 277 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 4: in that way. You should not be smoking or drinking 278 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 4: or taking coffee. If you're feeling lousy about the world, 279 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 4: you've got to do something about that. Exercise is probably 280 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 4: more strategic having a nap. But if you've got unremitting 281 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 4: gloom and you're really not feeling like, you're not feeling 282 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 4: that so you enjoy things the way you used to, 283 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 4: you don't want to get up and do stuff that 284 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 4: a lot of people are feeling that way during lockdown, 285 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 4: then you've actually got to seek help and talk to 286 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 4: somebody about it. 287 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: Now, when I think about your schedule, like pre pandemic, 288 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: I imagine it was very, very busy, But I can't 289 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: even begin to imagine how many requests you would receive 290 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: on your time and for your expertise every day, like 291 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: since you know February March twenty twenty, and I want 292 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: to know, like what's your process for deciding what to 293 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: say yes to and what to say no to? 294 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 4: Like a lot of people, I'm bad at saying no, 295 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 4: So with the media media requests, if it's internal to 296 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 4: the ABC, I feel obliged to help and do something. 297 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 3: So most of my media are sorry, most of my. 298 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 4: Media things or booking not bookings. Most of the things 299 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 4: I do on the media are within the ABC, So 300 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 4: consider that part of my job and doing that. And 301 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 4: I'll only say no if I've got something else on 302 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 4: at the same time, or I'll say no if I 303 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 4: don't know enough about it and I'm man follow myself, 304 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 4: which I probably we can follow myself more often than 305 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 4: I should do. But that's a fairly easy one. I 306 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 4: get a lot of external requests, and sometimes it's somebody 307 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,959 Speaker 4: who's done me a favor and I return in the favor. 308 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 4: Sometimes it's a good cause and I'll get involved there, 309 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 4: and sometimes it's a fairly venal decision. Is part of 310 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 4: what I do for a living, is I do public 311 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: speaking and facilitating, and then it's fielded through my agent, 312 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 4: and then it's almost a commercial decision and making sure 313 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 4: that it doesn't contravene my contract with the ABC. 314 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: Something I mentioned before we started recording is that I'm 315 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: a long term and very loyal listener of Corona Cast 316 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: and your daily podcast, and I'm just like, I'm so 317 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: impressed with how you just seem to know everything that's 318 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: going on, Norman, in amongst your very busy, busy life 319 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: and all these commitments that you have. So curiously, how 320 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: do you keep up with the daily news cycle? What 321 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: are your rituals or routines around that. 322 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 4: Well, I wake up, you generally wake up early, and 323 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 4: by the time I get out of bed, I've usually 324 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 4: read the Financial Times, the New York Times, City Morning Herald, 325 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 4: and the ABC's news feed, and I also would read 326 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 4: The New Yorker on a weekly basis, so that's my 327 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 4: general news current affairs, and I watch a bit of 328 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 4: news and current affairs each evening, and then I scan 329 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 4: the journals, so i'm each week I would read the 330 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 4: New England Journal of Medicine, the Lancet, the British Medical Journal, 331 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 4: Medical Journal of Australia when it comes out, and I 332 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 4: also look at a few feeds on coronavirus information and 333 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 4: that takes up quite a lot of the day that 334 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 4: you're not spent in meetings and talking to people. 335 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 3: And I also talk to people, so. 336 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 4: Sometimes they accused of expressing my own opinion. I almost 337 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 4: never express my own opinion. I just have a network 338 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 4: of people that I regularly talk to and benchmark what 339 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 4: I'm thinking is going on against what they're thinking is 340 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 4: going on. 341 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 3: And there are often people that are all about. 342 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 4: Pretty much all people I trust that I know are 343 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 4: actually independent. 344 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: And they're. 345 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 4: Making and if they give me advice, it's selfless advice 346 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 4: that's really based on the evidence, and or give me 347 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 4: information and they're all and they're tapped into their networks 348 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 4: and they'll often contact me when they think something's going on. 349 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 4: So that is a full time job in itself without 350 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 4: your varying and for just doing that on a daily basis, 351 00:19:58,440 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 4: I could imagine. 352 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: And so when you're reading through the various news publications 353 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: and journal articles and speaking to people, what's your process 354 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: for remembering and organizing all that information? 355 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 3: I wish if in this listening is quite a good process. 356 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 4: I'd love to hear from them, because I'll tell you 357 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 4: naming thought about my organizational skills. In the late eighties, 358 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 4: I ran Really National and I came into run Really 359 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 4: National as the head Really National group at a time 360 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 4: of crisis when Ready National was really disappearing off the 361 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 4: face of the air of its audience was disappearing, and 362 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 4: I had quite strong views about what should happen. And 363 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 4: I came in and I was the person who started 364 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 4: Really National Breakfast. I brought in Philip Adams to do 365 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 4: live Gerald didn't do, to do life matters. I changed 366 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 4: the whole network run down and it was a really 367 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 4: intense three years and we increased the audience by about 368 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 4: thirty percent during those years, and those years kind of 369 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 4: saved Really National. It wasn't just me, it was a 370 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 4: team of people had around me. Now I was working 371 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 4: six days a week, twelve fourteen hours a day, and 372 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 4: one of my senior managers that I'd hired, a woman 373 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 4: called an Talks. Really fantastic person comes from Western Australia. 374 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 4: She was an academic, she taught management. She went on 375 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 4: from Really National. By the way, to run theater company, 376 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 4: and so she was an experienced senior manager. 377 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 3: In fact, she was far more experienced than me. So 378 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 3: she worked for me. 379 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 4: And I remember when I first went on the first time, 380 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 4: I took a couple of weeks off. I said, and 381 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 4: you've got to act for me. Now here's your main task. 382 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 4: Apart from doing what you've got to do. You're going 383 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 4: to have to tell me how I can organize my 384 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 4: life better. I've clearly disorganized in my management style. Tell 385 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 4: me what I'm doing wrong so that I can work 386 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 4: twelve hours a day. Around fourteen I get back and 387 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 4: sort of completely met hurt. And she'd be working fourteen 388 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 4: hours a day just like me. So maybe there isn't 389 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 4: a secret. So I I you know, I have a 390 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 4: file folder in my emails or so for a lot 391 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 4: of COVID material, I will That's probably the main thing 392 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 4: that I do. I have bookmarks to links and I 393 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 4: know that I can go to And I also don't 394 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 4: ruminate a lot on stuff, so once it's done, it 395 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 4: moves on so that I'm not cluttered with things that 396 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 4: I've already dealt with. But it's in a place where 397 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 4: I know I could go back and look for it 398 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 4: if I have to. 399 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: We'll be back with Norman soon and we'll be hearing 400 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: about how he communicates such complex health information in such 401 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: a clear and engaging way. But if you are after 402 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: more content, something that I put out once every two 403 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: weeks is a little newsletter with three things that I 404 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: am loving. So if you are keen to hear about 405 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: gadgets or software, I'm trying out interesting research that I'm reading, 406 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: or just general cool stuff that is grabbing my attention, 407 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: hop on to howiwork dot co howiwork dot COO, and 408 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: pop your email in and you can expect to get 409 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: something from me in your inbox shortly. How do you 410 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: avoid not ruminating on things? 411 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 4: It's hard, but you've just got to move on and 412 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 4: learn that that's what's done is done, and you've got 413 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 4: the next task in hand, and you can't get onto 414 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 4: the next task unless you've just cleared your I call 415 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 4: it my random access memory. You've just got to clear 416 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 4: that intermediate memory so that your fort on. 417 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 3: The next thing. 418 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 4: And I just I've always had that ability to just 419 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 4: I think medicine helps you to do that. By the way, 420 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 4: So a training in medicine, if you if you ruminate 421 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 4: on things and get obsessed with things, you don't make 422 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 4: a good doctor. You've got to be able to deal 423 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 4: with something. And then the next patient, that's the only 424 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 4: patient in your life at that moment, and you've got 425 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 4: to totally focus on that patient's story, get that sorted out. 426 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 4: It doesn't matter how upsetting and difficult the previous patient's 427 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 4: story was, because at the end of that patient consultation, 428 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 4: you act on it, so you don't procrastinate. And I 429 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 4: think that's that's the training I got in medicine, and 430 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 4: I just apply it to everything else that I do. 431 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: So how did they train you to do that? Because 432 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: that sounds amazing in theory, but how like, what strategies 433 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: did they teach you in practice? 434 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 4: I think there's a bit of pre selection there is 435 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 4: that if you're if you're not like that, you'll you'll 436 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 4: not So, for example, if you're in acute medicine. I 437 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 4: spent most of my training in acute medicine, pediatrics, surgery 438 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 4: and things like that, but mostly pediatrics. 439 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 3: Is that. 440 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 4: If you're not like that, you probably would not do 441 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 4: that specialty and you would find something else to do. 442 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 4: I suppose that's the case, and you're just forced to 443 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 4: do I mean, and I had a couple of bosses 444 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 4: who really showed me how to do it as well, 445 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 4: So it was on the job training rather than medical 446 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 4: school training. 447 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 3: If I really think hard about it. 448 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: Now, something that I always find really impressive when I 449 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: listen to you is just how effective you are communicating 450 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: health information that can be quite complex, but doing it 451 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: in a really clear and simple way. And I want 452 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: to know how do you do it? Like what's going 453 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: on behind the scenes when you're thinking about how to 454 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: communicate complex things simply? 455 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 3: Look, that's taking years to develop when I've. 456 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 4: So one of the joys of what I'm doing do 457 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 4: is it's exactly what you say. I mean, I really 458 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 4: love it. That's what I really love. I loved storytelling, 459 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 4: and so that's what journalism is is discipline storytelling and 460 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 4: I and when you're telling a story, you've got to 461 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 4: work out what the narrative is, how to engage people 462 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 4: in that narrative, how to stop their minds drifting to 463 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 4: something else so that they're always there. And I liken 464 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 4: it to grabbing somebody by the neck, sitting them down. 465 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,239 Speaker 4: Nothing else to think about now, And what's the air 466 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 4: and flow of the energy of a communication piece as 467 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 4: well as the content of that. So when I first 468 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 4: joined the ABC, that's what you know. I already had 469 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 4: that love of storytelling, and then you had to apply 470 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 4: it to communicating complex information more complex information. And and 471 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 4: I had a colleague then, unfortunately, actor young Peter Hunt, 472 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 4: who we were closely together. 473 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 3: He was environmental journalist. I was health and health. 474 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 5: Side, and we used to work together and do that 475 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 5: task together. He had something that he wanted to communicate 476 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 5: it till he wanted to communicate. We workshop how we 477 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 5: did it, and we'd read each other's scripts and give 478 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 5: people and give each other feedback. And we did that 479 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 5: for some years. And I think that once you've been 480 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 5: doing that sort of thing for some years, you kind 481 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 5: of get what works and what doesn't work. And now 482 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 5: one of the pleasures I. 483 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 4: Get is actually working with young incoming broadcasters and working 484 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 4: on their scripts and showing them ways of changing the story, 485 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 4: how you might create a metaphor an image something to 486 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 4: grab onto and get that rhythm right and pass that on. 487 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 4: But it's just years and years of doing it and 488 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 4: practicing and getting feedback, and years and years of failure 489 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 4: as well. And learning from your failures. 490 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: So when you are editing, say a less experienced and script, 491 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: for example, what are some of the things that you're 492 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 1: looking for or are some of the pieces of advice 493 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: that you find yourself giving often? 494 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 4: Well, I think the mistake that some people make, and 495 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 4: it's not just young kids coming in and learning, it's people. 496 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 4: Something you're doing is that you feel you're on a 497 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 4: mission to explain. And if you feel you're on a 498 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 4: mission to explain, you're going to fail before you start. 499 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 4: That's why I'm talking about storytelling. 500 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: Now. 501 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 4: Storytelling is episodic. It has a beginning, a middle, and 502 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 4: an end, but it also has episodes within it. And 503 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 4: you don't tell the whole story up front. You've got 504 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 4: to give people a reason to move on. So the 505 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 4: common things that I find people do is they give 506 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 4: away the story at the beginning. All you've got to 507 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 4: do at the beginning is give people a reason to 508 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 4: listen because it's going to be a payoff, and make 509 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 4: sure they do get a payoff. 510 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 3: It's explaining too much at one time rather than parsing 511 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 3: up the information. 512 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 4: So that I'm going to give you a little bit, 513 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 4: you get a little bit now, consolidate that little bit 514 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 4: of information. Then I'll take you to the next place, 515 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 4: and I'm taking you by the hand through the story. 516 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 4: And you've got to trust me that i will take 517 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 4: you by the hand and i will not lose you 518 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 4: during the story. 519 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: That's it's fascinating hearing you talk about that, Like, what 520 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: what else are you finding? You know, potentially common mistakes 521 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: that people make or things that you're you know, other 522 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: pieces of advice that you're that you often give. 523 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 3: Those are those are the main ones. 524 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 4: The other problem of this is a radio and television 525 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 4: thing rather than print journalism, but really intellivision thing is 526 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 4: that you sometimes get people coming into it who want 527 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 4: to be stars and don't want to put in the work, 528 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 4: and that doesn't work. It may work in commercial television 529 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 4: where you're just there to look nice and you've got 530 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 4: somebody whispering every word into your ear for you for 531 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 4: you to say to the audience, but which I'm not 532 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 4: sure it happens that much commercial television anymore, but it 533 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 4: used to happen. You know, there's there's no place for 534 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 4: prima donors. You're not going to become a star just 535 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 4: because you look good and have a nice voice. There's 536 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 4: actually got to be substance there and I and the 537 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 4: other thing is is selecting people for jobs within the media, 538 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 4: is that really a national We're very firm that we 539 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 4: go for people's minds and their education. You know, have 540 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 4: you had a good education, have you. 541 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 3: Had a good. 542 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 4: Intellectual training. You know, there are people on this floor 543 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 4: at Greatly National PhDs and PhDs in German literature and 544 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 4: so on. It's just, you know, are really we actually 545 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 4: don't hire that many people with media degrees. We probably 546 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 4: preferentially go with somebody who's got an English degree, a 547 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 4: history degree, who's got who's done further education, gone down 548 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 4: the track a little bit, but also learned how to 549 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:02,719 Speaker 4: tell stories simply. 550 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 3: And there's entertaining. 551 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 4: Often just sit there and interview somebody for a job 552 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 4: and are they boring me or are they entertaining me? 553 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 4: And I'd love to have dinner with them? And you know, 554 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 4: somebody I'd like to have dinner with be entertaining all night. 555 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 4: Then you're kind of getting there. You're kind of getting 556 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 4: there now. 557 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: As a health journalist, something that you have to do 558 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: as part of your role is you interview a lot 559 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: of people and I believe that you will often have 560 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: your producer or producers do a pre interview with people 561 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: that you're interviewing, as my producer Jenna did with you, 562 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: And I'd love to know, I mean, you know, particularly 563 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: for people that have no idea what a pre interview is, 564 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your perspective on, you know, what 565 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,239 Speaker 1: is the role of a pre interview, how do you 566 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: use that and then how does that then shape an 567 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: interview that you're conducting. 568 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 4: So, by and large, I only do pre interviews for 569 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 4: interviews that are alive because you've got no. 570 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 3: Margin for error in a live interview. 571 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 4: So a lot of it is actually to find out 572 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 4: whether somebody's, what we say, good talent or not. 573 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 3: So can they express themselves, are they clear? And will 574 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 3: they keep the. 575 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 4: Audience engaged for the seven or eight minutes that they 576 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 4: need to be on air and tell their story clearly, 577 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 4: as well as finding out what the story is in 578 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 4: more depth. But it's as much about a screening process, 579 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 4: because if you've got somebody who is a bad explainer 580 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 4: or a really boring speaker, you do not want. 581 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: Them on their live Now it's funny, I always feel 582 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: like slightly self conscious when I have guests on the 583 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,719 Speaker 1: show and part of their role is to interview other people, 584 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: and Norman, I'd love to get any feedback that you 585 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: have for me on how this interview is felt for 586 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: you and what I could be doing better as an interviewer. 587 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 4: No, this is good because you are enthusiastic, You're conversational. 588 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 4: I know what I said to your producer when I 589 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 4: got the pre interview, and you're not following the pre interview. 590 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 3: You are. You're following your gut feel and you're following 591 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 3: the interview. 592 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 4: Because that's the other thing, yes, is that an interview 593 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 4: is a conversation and you certain information you want to 594 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 4: get out of it. 595 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 3: But if you so. 596 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 4: The other thing I tell new people to the game 597 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:44,239 Speaker 4: is try not to have a list of questions that 598 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 4: go one to twenty. I tend to have a mud map. 599 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 4: People are often horror and it goes back to my organization, 600 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 4: my pro organization. So but I often have a mud map. 601 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 4: I know there's things I need to hit and there 602 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 4: might be the right sequence to start. You know, if 603 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 4: I start here, that's the right way to start. It 604 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 4: opens it up and then I've got this opportunity and 605 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 4: I've got that opportunity and so on, but I can't 606 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,399 Speaker 4: remember the last interview I did which worked according to plan. 607 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 4: Because somebody will say, you've got to know what you 608 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,720 Speaker 4: want to get up, but you've got to know the territory. 609 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 4: You've got to be well researched, and then you've got 610 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 4: to know the things that you want to hit. But 611 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 4: you actually might start at one, and then you jump 612 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 4: to number twenty in your list, and then you're back 613 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 4: at fifteen, and then you're at number seven, and then 614 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 4: you're a one that isn't on your list at all, 615 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,399 Speaker 4: which takes you to an entirely new area. And you've 616 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,959 Speaker 4: got to be prepared to abandon all that hard work 617 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 4: because this is much more interesting than you ever thought. 618 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 4: And so you've got to actually enter into the world 619 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 4: of the person that you're interviewing, whilst retaining the objectivity 620 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,919 Speaker 4: of the interviewer. And it's that So at one point 621 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 4: I was going to do psychiatry, and it was often 622 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 4: I was fascinated in psychiatry by the psychiatric interview. And 623 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 4: that's what the psychiatric interview is that you are trying 624 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 4: to elicit a person story but being entirely open to 625 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 4: cues that they're going to give you which take you 626 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 4: to somewhere that you should not pre judge the interview 627 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 4: or the history taking. If you like it's going to 628 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 4: take that you're going to go in a certain direction. 629 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 4: You've got to be prepare for any direction that's thrown 630 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 4: at you, and they'll be able to come back to 631 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 4: what some of the things that you really need to know. 632 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,439 Speaker 4: And I still follow that formula that I was taught 633 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 4: in psychiatry, particularly for long interviews, which I love doing 634 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 4: long interviews because it gives you a chance to do that, 635 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 4: explore areas, go off at a tangent, it might seem 636 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 4: like a tangent, but find out what it was that 637 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 4: made that remark. 638 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 3: And being very tuned into inflections and emotion. 639 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 4: And mood and stuff that you've not heard by that 640 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 4: person before. 641 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,919 Speaker 3: That allows you to go for it. 642 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: Now for people that want to get their hands or 643 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,959 Speaker 1: a copy of So you think you know what's good 644 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: for you, and also consume other things, all the other 645 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,720 Speaker 1: amazing things that you are putting out into this world. 646 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: What's the best way for people to do that? 647 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 3: Well? So you think, so you think you know what's 648 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 3: good for you? 649 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 4: Is available from Torpia or Amazon or your local bookshop, 650 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 4: so that so you get that. There's Corona cast, so 651 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 4: you can down that wherever you get your podcasts or 652 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 4: from the ABC Listen app. And the health Support comes 653 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 4: as a podcast as well as a live broadcast, so 654 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 4: that's on a half past five live on a Monday 655 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 4: night and it's repeated on a Tuesday morning at half 656 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 4: past five in the morning, and it's as bailable as 657 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 4: a podcast as well from the ABC Listen app or 658 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 4: wherever you hit your podcasts, so plenty of ways to 659 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 4: get it. 660 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 3: Amazing. 661 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: Norman, thank you so much for sharing some of your 662 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: time with me today, given how busy you are, it's 663 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: just been an absolute pleasure. 664 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 3: And the pleasures all mine. Thanks for having me. 665 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening today. I hope you 666 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: got some useful stuff from my chat with Norman. Now, 667 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: if you are not a subscriber or follower of How 668 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: I Work, now is the time to hit subscribe or 669 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: follow wherever you're listening to this from, because next week 670 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: I've got Fulbright scholar Holly Ransom talking about why micro 671 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: habits have been the key to her success, and she 672 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 1: has a hell of a lot of other practical tips 673 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: to share. How I Work is produced by Inventium with 674 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this 675 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 1: episode was Jenna Coder and thank you tomt Nimba who 676 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: does the audio mix for all episodes and makes everything 677 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: sound better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.