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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the.

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Speaker 2: Time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 3: Now, I've been doing some maths misters Happy Families. As

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Speaker 3: you know, it's not my strong point, but I've discovered

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Speaker 3: we have been parenting parenting since nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so that's okay.

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Speaker 2: So now I'm feeling old, and I for the reminder.

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Speaker 3: I added up the age of each of our children

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Speaker 3: so that I can get in it like an accumulative

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Speaker 3: total of the complete number of years a week there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so if you add up the age of

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Speaker 1: each the kids, one hundred and three years.

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Speaker 2: No wonder, my body feels so old.

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Speaker 1: So tired, one hundred and three years.

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Speaker 3: But this matters because we've got some runs on the board,

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Speaker 3: We've spent some time at the crease, We've done the reps,

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Speaker 3: and every Tuesday we try to answer your questions podcasts

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Speaker 3: at Happy families dot com dot IU.

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Speaker 1: We love it when you send your.

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Speaker 3: Questions through and we can use that hard won wisdom

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Speaker 3: to try to be helpful.

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Speaker 2: We actually have some audio today. If you've got a

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Speaker 2: question for us, send us a voice memo, just like

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Speaker 2: Kate's done to podcasts. That's podcasts with an s at

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Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com dot AU.

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Speaker 1: Here's what Kate's it, Hi, Justin.

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Speaker 4: And Kylie, it's Kate here. We have a capable and

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Speaker 4: strong sixteen year old boy. He helps people out a

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Speaker 4: lot and gets a lot of validation from it. Flipside

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Speaker 4: is we can't get him to help us ninety eight

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Speaker 4: percent of the time. He's particularly reluctant to help his dad.

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Speaker 4: We are a hard working family and never would it

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Speaker 4: be acceptable to point blank refuse to chip in growing up.

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Speaker 4: I'm not talking slave labor. I'm talking help unload the

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Speaker 4: car after a bonning's trip, or help bring up groceries.

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Speaker 4: He gets plenty of downtime, so isn't overloaded by requests

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Speaker 4: for help. Surely we can't be the only family battling this.

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Speaker 4: Advice would be wonderful.

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Speaker 2: I think we dealt with something like that just the

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Speaker 2: other day in the kitchen. I don't know what had happened,

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Speaker 2: but all of a sudden, there was a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a conversation that took place, and then one of

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Speaker 2: our teenagers stormed out of the room slammed the door.

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Speaker 1: It was a hurricane.

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Speaker 3: What happened I asked her if she could put away

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Speaker 3: the dishes that were in the dish rackt they were dry.

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Speaker 1: She didn't even have to. It was just too much.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you are not the only one.

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Speaker 3: My initial reaction to Kate's question is I almost want

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Speaker 3: to just be glibally dismissive of it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, welcome to parenting teens. Welcome to parenting teens.

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Speaker 3: We've raised six daughters, several of them have now gone

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Speaker 3: through this stage, and they go through a stage where

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Speaker 3: they do it from the time that they're young, but

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Speaker 3: as they get older you really notice it more, you

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Speaker 3: expect more of them, and where they respond that way,

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Speaker 3: it's really really hard to take. I remember a time

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Speaker 3: when I was maybe about the same age, fifteen, sixteen

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Speaker 3: years of age, and Mum asked me to hang some

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Speaker 3: washing on the line, and I remember so distinctly yelling

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Speaker 3: at Mum and saying, don't you know I've got a

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Speaker 3: life too. They're like, here I am, I'm this kid

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Speaker 3: with nothing better to do. And this is I'm saying

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Speaker 3: this to a woman who's raising her own six kids,

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Speaker 3: including two sets of twins, running three businesses, serving actively

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Speaker 3: in her community in church, who knows what else. So

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Speaker 3: there's some stuff going on, Kate, and we need to

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Speaker 3: address that so that you can help your little guy,

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Speaker 3: well he sounds like me, guy little to do things

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Speaker 3: in ways that work for your family.

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Speaker 2: I think first things first, it's really important for us

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Speaker 2: to understand some of the developmental realities that we're dealing

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Speaker 2: with with a sixteen year old boy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or teenagers generally. We'll get to boys in a second.

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Speaker 3: Teenagers generally, I mean they're just wildly egocentric, right, Like

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Speaker 3: they really truly actually think that everyone is thinking about them,

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Speaker 3: everyone's talking about them, everyone's wanting for them what they

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Speaker 3: want for themselves.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting. I just had a conversation with a teenager

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Speaker 2: this week who's really really struggling to find her people.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't feel like she connects, And when I asked

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Speaker 2: her what she thought was the number one challenge that

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Speaker 2: stopped the connection, she said, I think I'm just in

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Speaker 2: my head so much. I think that when people are

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Speaker 2: looking at me, they're thinking about me, they're talking about me,

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Speaker 2: they're saying the worst things about me. When they say yes,

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Speaker 2: I'm actually thinking they're only saying yes because they feel

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Speaker 2: sorry for me. When they don't say anything. Then you know,

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Speaker 2: like she just kept talking and talking it's all about them,

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Speaker 2: without recognizing that these people probably aren't talking about them

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Speaker 2: because they're so worried about themselves.

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Speaker 1: It's a perfect example.

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Speaker 3: I think the thing here is it just boggles their

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Speaker 3: mind in this instance where we ask them to do

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Speaker 3: something that's inconsistent with their preferences. They're just like, wait, what, No,

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Speaker 3: I'm gaming, I'm on social.

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Speaker 1: Media, I'm instagramming.

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Speaker 3: I'm in the middle of the most important message of

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Speaker 3: my life right now. And I know I'm kind of

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Speaker 3: having some fun with this, but that's kind of how

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Speaker 3: it feels for them because of the egocentrism that's associated

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Speaker 3: with being a mid adolescent.

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Speaker 1: This is what it's about.

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Speaker 2: They're really good at being in the moment, though, aren't they,

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Speaker 2: Because literally what they're doing is the most important thing

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Speaker 2: that they could be doing in that moment, as it

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Speaker 2: probably is.

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Speaker 3: There's another issue, though, that we need to talk about.

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Speaker 3: I mentioned that there's a gender issue and I want

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Speaker 3: to touch on that, and that is the empathy issue.

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Speaker 3: So with boys and empathy, it's really different to girls

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Speaker 3: and empathy.

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Speaker 1: Two different kinds of empathy.

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Speaker 3: Kylie the empathy that most people are familiar with is

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Speaker 3: the bit where I'm feeling what you're feeling.

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Speaker 1: We call that affective empathy.

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Speaker 3: So in psychology we talk about affect as being the

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Speaker 3: felt part of our emotions. So if I'm having an

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Speaker 3: affective moment, I'm having I'm feeling something really big. Affective

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Speaker 3: empathy is this ability for me to say, oh, it

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Speaker 3: hurts for you, and it hurts for me seeing you hurt.

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Speaker 3: That's affective empathy. You're smiling at me. I'm driving this.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking back to the early days of our relationship,

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Speaker 2: and I remember you literally would look at me sometimes

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Speaker 2: when I was having a meltdown for various different reasons,

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Speaker 2: with this absolute, blank blank stare. You had no idea

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Speaker 2: how to be in my shoes in that moment. I

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Speaker 2: think it took a PhD and a whole heap of

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Speaker 2: kids and a whole heap of life before you actually

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Speaker 2: got that effective empathy going.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just to be clear, it's not effective as

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Speaker 3: in effective, meaning it's effective and it gets things done,

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Speaker 3: but rather affective effective. Just need to clear up the

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Speaker 3: clear effective as well a well. Affective empathy can be

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Speaker 3: pretty effective. Yeah, but we're talking about affective empathy. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't a PhD. But but boys have to mature into

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Speaker 3: they have to grow into that empathy, and they also

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Speaker 3: have to it's not just a developmental thing.

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Speaker 1: It's also a motivational thing.

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Speaker 2: I think that for girls it's really different, though I'm

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Speaker 2: getting there.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly where I'm going.

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Speaker 3: So two different kinds of empathy, and then I'll talk

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Speaker 3: about the difference between boys and girls. So there's affective empathy,

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Speaker 3: and then there's also cognitive empathy. Cognitive empathy is a

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Speaker 3: bit where you're telling me what's going on, and in

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Speaker 3: my head, I say, ah, I get it, I get

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Speaker 3: how you I'm not feeling the same sadness you're feeling,

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Speaker 3: but I understand how sad you are, and I can

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Speaker 3: imagine that if I was in your shoes, I would

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Speaker 3: also be sad. So affective empathy what I'm feeling. Cognitive

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Speaker 3: empathy the ability to think through somebody else's feelings. Now

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Speaker 3: here's the critical gender difference with girls. There's a steady

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Speaker 3: upward trajectory of both cognitive empathy and affective empathy from

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Speaker 3: a round about well right throughout the childhood, but particularly

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Speaker 3: from around about that age of eleven twelve thirteen, we

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Speaker 3: just see girls they reach out to each other in comfort,

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Speaker 3: but they also know how to use because they understand

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Speaker 3: how empathy works and how other people are feeling, they

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Speaker 3: do know how to use that in less helpful ways

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Speaker 3: sometimes as well. When it comes to boys. Somewhere around

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Speaker 3: that big testosterone boosts. Somewhere around twelve or thirteen, we

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Speaker 3: see empathy drop. And it doesn't just drop, I mean

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Speaker 3: it precipitously falls off a cliff fast and it stays

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Speaker 3: down there like it just goes the opposite direction to

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Speaker 3: girls super fast, and it stays there until a round

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Speaker 3: about sixteen, which is when it starts to bounce back

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Speaker 3: in a slow mo kind of way.

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Speaker 2: Do you say, twenty five, Well, he likes said a.

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Speaker 1: Slow moo kind of way.

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Speaker 3: And this is where what's happening in the peer group,

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Speaker 3: what happens with the media, they consume, what's happening in

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Speaker 3: their home environment, what's happening at school. The degree to

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Speaker 3: which they're surrounded with kindness and empathy and goodness, that's

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Speaker 3: going to have a motivating or demotivating impact on them

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Speaker 3: in terms of the degree to which they're going to

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Speaker 3: be empathic.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, or how interested they are

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Speaker 2: in girls.

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Speaker 3: That may also sometimes help it sometimes, like Andrew Tate's

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Speaker 3: interested in girls. Not really high on empathy there. This

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Speaker 3: is one of the critical things for parents of boys

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Speaker 3: to teach their sons. It's so important for them to

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Speaker 3: learn empathy.

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Speaker 2: When I hear Kate's message, I don't feel like this

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Speaker 2: is an empathy issue. Though this sounds like, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think you're right. He sounds like a really great kid.

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Speaker 2: He's really helpful to others. So if it's not an

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Speaker 2: empathy thing, what else could it be.

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Speaker 3: Okay, there is a second issue here. It's related to empathy.

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Speaker 3: Its related to that first big developmental reality. There is

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Speaker 3: an MMA fight going on inside almost every teen boy's

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Speaker 3: brain pretty much all the time.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you're saying MMA, like I should know what that means.

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Speaker 1: What is that? Okay? Mma? It's mixed martial arts.

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Speaker 3: You know, when you go past a club or a

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Speaker 3: part or something like that, and they've often got a

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Speaker 3: big fight happening on the big screen, and.

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Speaker 2: Well I try not to look in that direction.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, so that's the cage fighting sort of stuff. Right,

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Speaker 3: So you've got guys who they hit and they kick

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Speaker 3: and they do all the things.

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Speaker 1: And then when they knock their opponents.

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Speaker 3: Over, they get on the ground and they start pounding

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Speaker 3: them even though they're on the ground. It's not very

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Speaker 3: gentlemanly at all.

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Speaker 1: But there is an.

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Speaker 3: Mma cage fight happening in every teenage boys or almost

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Speaker 3: every teenage boy's brain, and it's a cage fight between

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Speaker 3: empathy and entitlement. And right now at this age, entitlement

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Speaker 3: has empathy on the mat and it is pounding it hard.

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Speaker 3: And I think that entitlement's winning at this age. And

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Speaker 3: what this does is it results in a really intoxicating

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Speaker 3: mix of power privilege for the boys. That happens at

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Speaker 3: every age, but it's really challenging at this age. So

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Speaker 3: when kids are saying nah, or they're refusing or they're

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Speaker 3: ignoring you in there eight, I mean, it still bothers

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Speaker 3: you as a parent, but it doesn't put you in

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Speaker 3: the same way as it does when there is a

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Speaker 3: sixteen year old man child because he's so big, he's

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Speaker 3: big like a man now, and when he says no

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Speaker 3: or when he refuses to get up, you know that

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Speaker 3: cognitively he's got the capacity to see.

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Speaker 1: That you need help.

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Speaker 3: You know that he's a mooching leech in the house.

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Speaker 3: If he's not going to do anything to contribute, you

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Speaker 3: expect him to do something. And so it just feels

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Speaker 3: so much more concerning. He's big, and there's a higher

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Speaker 3: level of expected responsibility around it, and for him, pushing

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Speaker 3: back and saying no and pleasing himself serves his brain

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Speaker 3: up the hormone equivalent of a short term hit of

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Speaker 3: all the stuff the teenagers are taught to say no

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Speaker 3: to and to stay away from. It just feels so good.

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Speaker 3: Now it won't last. It won't last. That good feeling

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Speaker 3: of yeah, I can do what I want. That won't last.

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Speaker 3: He's going to stay on the couch his phone, and

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Speaker 3: then he a small part of at least, will feel

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Speaker 3: really disgusted in himself for being so I'm willing to

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Speaker 3: contribute and help mammel dad out. But for a lot

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Speaker 3: of kids, that small feeling of disgust isn't going to

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Speaker 3: be big enough to actually get them off the couch

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Speaker 3: and do something.

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Speaker 2: We talk about the three psychological needs of all of

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Speaker 2: all of us, right galas of whether we're children are adults,

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Speaker 2: being competency, connection and autonomy. And when I think about

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Speaker 2: our teenagers and their pushback.

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Speaker 1: They just want to control their run lives.

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Speaker 2: They just want to feel like they have control and

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Speaker 2: saying no. Part of that feel good moment is recognizing

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Speaker 2: that I actually get to control this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I think that ties in with where I kind

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Speaker 3: of wanted to go, and that is to highlight that

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Speaker 3: this could be a correction direction issue.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was about to say, I think for me,

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Speaker 2: when I think about the challenges that we have in

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Speaker 2: our home like this all the time, when we get

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Speaker 2: to the core issue, you every time, every single time,

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Speaker 2: it's a connection issue.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So I've talked a lot of times about the relationship bucket. Okay,

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Speaker 3: water in the bucket is connection, Air is correction and direction.

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Speaker 3: When our kids are young, we shower attention all over them, right,

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Speaker 3: so much connection, so much of being seen and heard

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Speaker 3: and valued. And the connection bucket is big enough for

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Speaker 3: multiple daily soaks.

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Speaker 2: Well, just look at the physical site of a child.

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Speaker 2: You pick them up, and you give them a cuddle,

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Speaker 2: you give them a kiss, because they're so tiny and

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Speaker 2: they're it's easy, right.

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Speaker 3: I Mean, as our daughters have gotten older, I'm just

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to hold them as close and hold

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Speaker 3: them as often as I did when they were younger. Okay,

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Speaker 3: they're going through puberty, they're going through adolescents and as

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Speaker 3: a dad, I want to be close to my kids,

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Speaker 3: but there's also appropriate boundaries that need to be held.

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Speaker 2: But even as a mum, right as the kids get older,

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Speaker 2: the relationship that I have with them changes, So.

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Speaker 3: By the time they're teens, that balance really shifts where

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Speaker 3: where it's not just physical connection, it's all kinds of connection.

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Speaker 3: We don't spend the same amount of time with them,

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Speaker 3: they also don't spend the same amount of time with.

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Speaker 2: Us, and they don't want it.

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Speaker 3: They're not as depending. Well, here's the thing, they actually

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Speaker 3: do want it, not to.

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Speaker 2: The same level though, not to the same level as

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Speaker 2: a two year old.

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Speaker 1: Sure, sure, for sure.

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Speaker 3: But the question boils down to one thing, and that's

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Speaker 3: how do I encourage less leeching and more willing contribution

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Speaker 3: to my team? And I think a central part of

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Speaker 3: it has to be connection. It's got to be the

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Speaker 3: way we spend time with our kids. That this doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean we connect by pandering and sucking up and giving

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Speaker 3: kids a lead past whenever they don't want to do

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Speaker 3: the right thing.

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Speaker 1: It's about quality time.

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Speaker 3: It's about connection, about walks and games and sports and

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Speaker 3: conversations and meals and quiet moments on the end of

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Speaker 3: the bed and going through drive together.

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Speaker 1: It's about real connection.

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Speaker 3: So for me, when I'm hearing Kate's challenge, I just

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Speaker 3: want to say, let's spend some time building that connection again.

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Speaker 3: And you and I have both seen this with our

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Speaker 3: own kids.

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Speaker 1: If there's been.

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Speaker 3: Some connection that's lacking for a while, your first attempts

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Speaker 3: at connection pretty messy. Often they do not bear fruit

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Speaker 3: at all. Sometimes the kids push back. Sometimes it just

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Speaker 3: doesn't go anywhere. You don't even know what to say.

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Speaker 3: Connection is a bit like our muscles. If you don't

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Speaker 3: use them, the first few goes back at the gym

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Speaker 3: could be really strenuous, and they can even lead you

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Speaker 3: to a strain and having to spend some more time

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Speaker 3: away like I send you backwards rather than Ford's.

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Speaker 1: So I just think when you're not.

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Speaker 3: Getting anywhere with your kids, your number one go to

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Speaker 3: has got to be connection.

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Speaker 2: I think next, once you've started to rebuild those connections

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Speaker 2: with your team, it's really important to have open, honest

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Speaker 2: dialogue about what you're seeing in the house.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you can't do that if you haven't got

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Speaker 3: a strong connection for your base. Like if you sit

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Speaker 3: down and say, all right, we need to talk about responsibilities,

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Speaker 3: We need to talk about roles, who's going to do what?

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Speaker 3: The kids just hear more correction and direction.

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Speaker 2: What I love about what we do in our home

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Speaker 2: is it's a family conversation. It's not about singling any

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Speaker 2: person out, and it really is a conversation about how

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Speaker 2: has it felt to be in our home this week? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and what are the things that we love about what

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Speaker 2: happened week? And one of the things that we just

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Speaker 2: we don't feel great? What do we want to change?

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Speaker 2: And including our kids in it. It doesn't have to

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Speaker 2: be us who says it, because somebody else in the

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Speaker 2: house is going to go, you know what, mum, And

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Speaker 2: how have you been fighting all week? I haven't liked that,

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Speaker 2: or I haven't loved how the kitchen's been a mess

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Speaker 2: all the time. Like that will bring those things up

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Speaker 2: without you having to point out that that's been going on.

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Speaker 3: So that weekly conversation that we have is a really

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Speaker 3: easy way to get into this and just talk with

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Speaker 3: the kids about what the expectations are.

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Speaker 1: Let's make a plan. We're just going to work on

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Speaker 1: one of these things.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, So this week there's just been a general

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Speaker 3: lack of unhelpfulness around the house.

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Speaker 1: What's our plan this week? Do we all agree it

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel good? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Okay, So what's our plan this week? To increase the

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Speaker 3: level of helpfulness. So that's a really nice general way

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Speaker 3: to do it. You can also attack it one on one,

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Speaker 3: and I think there's usefulness in doing that. You want

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Speaker 3: to make sure that you don't get too legalistic about it,

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Speaker 3: you don't get too caught up in roles and responsibilities.

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Speaker 3: But when you're talking to a sixteen year old those

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Speaker 3: three e's, explore where they're at, explain what your needs are,

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Speaker 3: and then empower them. So, buddie, where are you with this?

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Speaker 3: Where are you willing to step in? What contribution you

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Speaker 3: make and when and how? And if you're tired or

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Speaker 3: if you're disengaged and we're asking you and we're getting nowhere,

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Speaker 3: help us now, help us make the plan?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 3: What's the best way for us to deal with this

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Speaker 3: so that we don't get flustered and you don't become

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Speaker 3: irate and the entitlement cycle continues. When you get them

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Speaker 3: on the same team, it just makes such a difference.

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Speaker 3: So that would be our second way forward.

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Speaker 2: I just think there's so much power in having those

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Speaker 2: exploratory conversations with our kids and helping them to feel

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Speaker 2: empowered in making better decisions moving forward if we can

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Speaker 2: remember that there's give and take in any relationship. As

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Speaker 2: a parent, I always want things done as soon as

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Speaker 2: I ask, but often that doesn't take into account what

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Speaker 2: my kids are doing in that instant And so if

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Speaker 2: we can give them the regal room to make decisions

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Speaker 2: that feel a little bit more autonomous, we're going to

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Speaker 2: get much more buy in from them if they know, Mum,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to have five more minutes at this and

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Speaker 2: then I'll come and do it.

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Speaker 3: Really, we just want to tap into the good kid

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Speaker 3: that he is. Understand where he is inviting to live

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Speaker 3: up to the highest version of himself. He will and

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Speaker 3: everyone and again he won't if something seriously has to

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Speaker 3: be done, stand in front of him, make eye contact,

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Speaker 3: make the demand. As a parent, sometimes you've just got

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Speaker 3: to do that, even with a sixteen year old boy.

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Speaker 3: But the best discipline, ultimately it comes down to not

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Speaker 3: reading the Riot Act. It's not about punishment consequences. It's

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Speaker 3: not even about rights and roles and responsibilities. The best

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Speaker 3: discipline is about problem solving and hopefully the process that

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Speaker 3: we've walked through in this podcast episode will help with that.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Family's podcast is.

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Speaker 3: Produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is

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Speaker 3: our executive producer. For more information about making your family happier,

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Speaker 3: please visit us at happy families dot com dot au