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Speaker 1: We get that life gets hectic, but we do have

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Speaker 1: a massive favor to ask you.

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Speaker 2: We know that you can multitasks, so pretty please, while

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Speaker 2: you listen to this episode, could you do the following?

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Speaker 2: In the show notes is a link and.

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Speaker 1: If you click on the link, you could win one

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Speaker 1: hundred million dollars.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's a lie, but it will take you

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Speaker 2: to a pole, and that pole will help us make

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Speaker 2: the podcast better.

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Speaker 1: We can't give away one hundred million dollars, but we

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Speaker 1: can give away some TDA hoodies. It's literally four questions.

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Speaker 1: You'll be done by the time we get through the headlines,

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Speaker 1: which we're about to read you ready, ready, Good morning,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the Daily OS. It is Tuesday, the

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Speaker 1: ninth of August. I'm Sam and I'm Zara, and today

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Speaker 1: we're talking about porn and who exactly is responsible for

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Speaker 1: keeping it a safe and legal environment. Now, I've been

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Speaker 1: looking at a court ruling in the US which found

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Speaker 1: that Visa, as in the payments platform, could be sued

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Speaker 1: for conspiring to profit from child abuse material posted to Pornhub.

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Speaker 1: But how has it gotten to this point and why

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Speaker 1: is Visa being held accountable for material uploaded to the website.

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Speaker 1: We'll get into all of that in the Deep Dive,

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Speaker 1: but first let's do the headlines.

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Speaker 2: Starting off the headlines with a story that we have

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Speaker 2: spoken about a number of times on this podcast. It

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Speaker 2: relates to John Barillaro and his New York trade posting.

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Speaker 2: So yesterday we heard from the former Deputy premier himself.

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Speaker 2: He revealed to an inquiry that he wished he'd never

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Speaker 2: applied for the job amid the controversy that has followed,

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Speaker 2: and he said that he originally intended on leaving politics

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Speaker 2: in June twenty twenty one, that was four months before

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Speaker 2: he actually did so. At the inquiry, Barillaro also said

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Speaker 2: that he'd told the current New South Wales Premier Dominique

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Speaker 2: Perete about his application on one occasion, and said that

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Speaker 2: he absolutely understood why there was suspicion about his job.

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Speaker 1: The Chinese Embassy in Australia has lashed back at the

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Speaker 1: Australian government's concerns that China's military exercises around Taiwan's coastline

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Speaker 1: and getting a little bit out of hand, saying that

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Speaker 1: China is quote the victim of political provocation and that

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Speaker 1: Australia quote has condemned the victim. Now this all comes

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Speaker 1: on the back of Foreign Affairs Minister Penny Wong saying

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Speaker 1: last week that the exercises are disproportionate and destabilizing and

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Speaker 1: that she had passed these concerns onto her Chinese counterparts.

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Speaker 1: Plenty of diplomatic friction there.

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Speaker 2: Ila Musk has challenged Twitter CEO his name is Parague Arawal,

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Speaker 2: to a public debate on the number of bot accounts

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Speaker 2: that exist on the social media platform. On Twitter, it

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Speaker 2: comes as part of a month long dispute between the

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Speaker 2: billionaire and the social media company after Musk's initial agreement

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Speaker 2: to purchase or to buy Twitter was threatened by disputes

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Speaker 2: over the number of spam accounts that exist across the platform.

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Speaker 1: And some good news to wrap up your Tuesday, Australia

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Speaker 1: has registered another unbelievably successful Commonwealth Games. They finished on

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Speaker 1: top of the ladder for the second consecutive games and

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Speaker 1: keeping in mind that the next Games is actually in

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Speaker 1: Victoria in four years. On Sunday, Australia became the first

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Speaker 1: Commonwealth nation to reach one thousand all time gold medals

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Speaker 1: after the Diamonds netball team defeated Jamaica. Fifty five to

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Speaker 1: fifty one in the final that was on the back

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Speaker 1: of success from the T twenty women's cricket team earlier

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Speaker 1: that day.

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Speaker 2: Just a quick trigger warning, this episode deals with sexual assault. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So Sam, at the top of this you mentioned that

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Speaker 2: we were talking about porn harb and we were also

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Speaker 2: talking about Visa.

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Speaker 1: Why are we.

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Speaker 2: Talking about both of these parties today?

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Speaker 1: We're talking about it because there was a court case

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Speaker 1: in the US that handed down a verdict that not

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Speaker 1: many people saw coming, and that's actually about who's responsible

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Speaker 1: for the uploading of videos that shouldn't be on the internet.

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Speaker 2: If people aren't familiar with Pornhub, can you just explain

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Speaker 2: a bit about the platform and kind of the sheer

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Speaker 2: magnitude of the audience that goes to this website.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely massive. The website gets three point five billion

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Speaker 1: visits a month.

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Speaker 2: That's insane.

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Speaker 1: On one ranking, pornhub is the fourteenth most visited website

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Speaker 1: in the world, so it's.

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Speaker 2: Clearly got a huge audience. And porn Hub, in the

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Speaker 2: same way that YouTube functions, can allow people to actually

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Speaker 2: upload stuff to the website, so it can be individual

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Speaker 2: people uploading things, not just a central body or a

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Speaker 2: central platform exactly.

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Speaker 1: So let me go back a few steps. It all

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Speaker 1: starts with a woman called Serena Flettes in twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 1: when she was thirteen years old. Her then boyfriend pressured

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Speaker 1: her into making a sexually explicit video and he posted

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Speaker 1: it onto Pornhub and the video is being watched by

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Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people. By the time Flates even

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Speaker 1: found it, it already had wrapped up four hundred thousand views.

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Speaker 2: And she was thirteen years old when this happened, so

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Speaker 2: she was very much a miner who hadn't uploaded this herself.

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Speaker 2: It had been uploaded of her without her knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Right, and it had massive implications for her. The New

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Speaker 1: York Times covered this story in a lot of detail,

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Speaker 1: and Flates talked about how being at school became a

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Speaker 1: totally toxic environment. People started blackmailing her and shaming her,

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Speaker 1: and of course this had a massive impact on her

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Speaker 1: mental health. I don't think any of us can really

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Speaker 1: imagine how bad this would have been for somebody so young.

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Speaker 2: And so while all of these things were happening, how

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Speaker 2: did she deal with it?

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Speaker 1: She was very proactive. She contacted mine Geek. Now Mine

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Speaker 1: Geek is the name of the parent company that has

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Speaker 1: an umbrella of pornography sites, of which pornhub is the

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Speaker 1: biggest one, and she informed them that the video was

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Speaker 1: child exploitation material, but it still took a few weeks

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Speaker 1: for it to be taken down. Now, according to court documents,

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Speaker 1: this video was saved by people and then uploaded in

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Speaker 1: different forms. One particular video got two point seven million views,

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Speaker 1: and Flaytes alleges videos of her were still available on

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Speaker 1: the website as recently as June twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so she went to mind Geek requested that these

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Speaker 2: videos be taken down. They kept popping up.

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Speaker 1: What happened then, well, she took them to court, and

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Speaker 1: she didn't just bring a case against mine geek, but

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Speaker 1: also Visa as well. And this is where the story

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Speaker 1: really does take a bit of a weird turn, but

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Speaker 1: it's super interesting. So to understand what Visa has to

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Speaker 1: do with this, you have to think about the revenue

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Speaker 1: model of mine Geek's websites. They make money by advertising

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Speaker 1: alongside their videos, and so ultimately mynd geek is being

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Speaker 1: accused of knowingly monetizing, as in financially benefiting from this

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Speaker 1: child abuse material.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So then what does Visa have to do with this?

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Speaker 2: Why are we talking about them?

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Speaker 1: Well, Flates involved them as a party in this lawsuit,

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Speaker 1: but she didn't allege that Visa was necessarily profiting in

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Speaker 1: the same way off the child abuse material. Instead, they

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Speaker 1: provided some of the tools that allowed the website to

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Speaker 1: make so much money from this material that shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: been there.

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Speaker 2: So are you saying that Visa was processing ad purchases

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Speaker 2: through porn Hub exactly?

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Speaker 1: And Flates alleges that Visa knew that myn Geek published

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Speaker 1: a substantial amount of child exploitation material on its websites,

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Speaker 1: but even though they knew, they didn't really take any

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Speaker 1: steps to limit where their transactions would be occurring.

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Speaker 2: So we've got these two parties in the case. Has

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Speaker 2: the court ruled one way or another?

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Speaker 1: Well, we actually haven't really gotten to the trial point,

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Speaker 1: which is the scary thing in terms of how long

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Speaker 1: this is going to take. For Flates, the first action

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Speaker 1: that was brought in the court was from Visa, and

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Speaker 1: they basically saw to be dismissed from the case. So

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Speaker 1: their argument they put forward to the judge is we

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be here. But the judge ruled in favor of Flats.

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Speaker 1: They said that Visa would have to be a defendant

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Speaker 1: in this case because there was reasonable evidence that Visa

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Speaker 1: did know that mine geek was using this website to

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Speaker 1: host child abuse material.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so Visa remains a party to this case. What

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Speaker 2: now for them?

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Speaker 1: We go to trial and Visa will have to be

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Speaker 1: there to defend themselves and their behavior in this situation. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's worth saying here that Visa maintains they've done nothing

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Speaker 1: wrong and that they disagree with the judge and are

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Speaker 1: confident that they'll be able to successfully defend themselves in court.

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Speaker 1: But whilst all this has been happening, there's been a

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Speaker 1: very interesting side development, and that is that both Visa

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Speaker 1: and MasterCards, so two of the really massive financial players

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Speaker 1: in the market, have announced that they're suspending ties with

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Speaker 1: mind Geek's advertising arm because of this decision. And what

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Speaker 1: that basically means in practice is that a Visa card

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Speaker 1: or a MasterCard can't be used anymore to buy advertising

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Speaker 1: on the site. This is, naturally the first time that

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Speaker 1: they've suspended their dealings with mind Geek. Back in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: they made similar announcements after the emergence of some allegations

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Speaker 1: of child abuse on Pornhub, and when they made this

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Speaker 1: announcement back in twenty twenty, it had an immediate impact.

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Speaker 1: Mind Geek pulled eighty percent of its unverified content in

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Speaker 1: order to get Visa and MasterCard to restore their services,

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Speaker 1: which they did a few weeks later, But two years

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Speaker 1: later we're in the same position again.

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Speaker 2: I find this story really interesting because while I've certainly

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Speaker 2: thought about and read about the really problematic areas of

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Speaker 2: pornography and especially as it pertains to the online world,

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Speaker 2: haven't really thought about the payments platforms and how they

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Speaker 2: might interact with.

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Speaker 1: This definitely, and I think when there's so much money

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Speaker 1: to be made, things can get blurred for a very

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Speaker 1: long time for these massive corporate entities. But ultimately, now

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Speaker 1: Visa has to stand up in court and defend its behavior.

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Speaker 2: Before we go, a quick reminder about our podcast survey.

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Speaker 2: It's live and you can find a link to it

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Speaker 2: in our show notes. You've been really overwhelmed at the

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Speaker 2: response so far. It's so awesome to see. There is

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Speaker 2: still time to respond, so let us know if you

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Speaker 2: love us, hate us, or somewhere in between.

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Speaker 1: As we said yesterday, we're going to give away a

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Speaker 1: hoodie every day and today the lucky winner is Liz Perry,

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Speaker 1: El Dog, the l Train, the Perry Meister shout out.

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Speaker 1: If you're listening and keep an eye on your inbox,

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Speaker 1: an email from us is coming your way.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and have a great day.