1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon, and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: Banjelung Kalkotin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily os It's Thursday, 8 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,279 Speaker 2: the first of September. Oh my gosh, we have hit 9 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 2: We've hit spring. I'm Sam, I'm Zara. Mikhail Gorbchov, the 10 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: man who led the Soviet Union from nineteen eighty five 11 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: until its collapse in nineteen ninety one, has died at 12 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: age ninety one. He is one of the biggest figures 13 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: of the twentieth century and is credited with helping to 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: end the Cold War. 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: Wherever you're tear down this wall. 16 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 2: But if you like Zara and I weren't born yet, 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: we're going to tell you what you need to know 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,199 Speaker 2: in the Dick Dive. But first, Sarah, what is making 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 2: headlines this spring morning? 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 3: The federal government's Jobs and Skill Summit. It's very hotly anticipated. 21 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 3: It'll begin today, kicking off a two day event that 22 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 3: hopes to address quote shared economic challenges between Australia's unions, employers, 23 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 3: governments and civil society. There'll be fourteen agenda points discussed 24 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 3: at the summit and it'll end with a keynote presentation 25 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 3: from the Australian Treasurer Jim Chalmers. 26 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: A new pandemic Preparedness medical Research Center will be established 27 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 2: in Melbourne following a two hundred and fifty million dollar 28 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: donation from a Canadian philanthropist. The new center, which will 29 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: be dedicated to finding treatments for future pandemics, will also 30 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 2: be supported by a ten year, seventy five million dollar 31 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: investment from the Victorian government and will be operated by 32 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: the University of Melbourne. 33 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 3: A quick trigger warning on this one. It discusses sexual assault. 34 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 3: A new study from Australia's National Research Organization for Women's 35 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 3: Safety has found more than half of Australian women in 36 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 3: their twenties have experienced sexual violence. It's also found that 37 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 3: a third of women in their forties had experienced sexual violence, 38 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 3: with the chief executive of Anrose calling the figures startling 39 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 3: and warning that the full scope of abuse against women 40 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 3: was still not known. 41 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 2: And today's good news. Scientists have found that humpback whales 42 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: are passing their songs across the Pacific Oceans. My bet 43 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: is that it's black eyed peas, my humps. The study 44 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: says whales off the Australian coast were passing their songs 45 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,119 Speaker 2: to wales in French Polynesia, who then pass on these 46 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 2: songs to others in Ecuador. It's kind of like a 47 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 2: whale shuffle. The humpback whale uses their songs to communicate 48 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: and they can last as long as high half an hour. 49 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 2: We heard yesterday that Mikhail Gorbachev died. You might not 50 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: have heard that name before. That's totally fine. Gorbachev is 51 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 2: actually a huge figure in the twentieth century. He's the 52 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 2: last ever president of the Soviet Union, and he's credited 53 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: with helping to end the Cold War. So we thought 54 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: we'd use this as an opportunity to take a little 55 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: bit of a history lesson and talk not just about 56 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: who Gorbachev was, but remind ourselves what the Cold War 57 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 2: was too. 58 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 3: I'm not sure about you, Sam, but the Cold War 59 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 3: does feel like something that gets brought up a lot 60 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: in pop culture. 61 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 4: In the Simpsons. 62 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 3: In the news, it gets mentioned in the context even 63 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 3: of Russia Ukraine, the war that is unfolding at the moment, 64 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 3: and as with many other things in the news, it's 65 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 3: just assumed that since it only ended in the nineties, 66 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 3: everyone knows what it is. 67 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: It's something that young newsreaders come up against a lot 68 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: and part of our mission here at TDA. So let's 69 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: die straight into it. Bring a jacket, we're going to 70 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: get cold. The Cold War was a period of tension 71 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: between the US and the Soviet Union which lasted for 72 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: decades now. The first strong tensions emerged in the forties, 73 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: and the war officially ended in the nineties. But when 74 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: I say war, it's important to understand that this wasn't 75 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 2: a war in the traditional sense of an arms conflict 76 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 2: between two countries. There were conflicts in some parts of 77 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: the world, but between the US and the Soviet Union, 78 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 2: it was more of a standoff where it felt like 79 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: the two powers were on the brink of an all 80 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 2: out war, specifically an all out nuclear war, and this 81 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 2: was the point that concerned really everyone on the planet. 82 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 2: Both sides were rapidly accumulating nuclear weapons and the world 83 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: was gripped by this threat that a nuclear conflict could 84 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: basically wipe out the entire world. 85 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 4: Okay, but let's just go back a step. 86 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 3: Can you talk us through what the source of these 87 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 3: I will call them ideological tensions were. 88 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: Why don't we pick it up at the end of 89 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: World War II. The US and Soviet Union emerged from 90 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: the war as the world's two big powers. And when 91 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: I say the US, we're talking here about the US 92 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 2: and an alliance of Western countries, including Australia. We've mentioned 93 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: NATO a bit on the podcast lately, and this is 94 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: when NATO was formed, with the US entering this military 95 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 2: alliance with European allies. So you've got NATO on one side, 96 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: and on the other side we had the Soviet Union, 97 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 2: which was a collection of communist states in Eastern Europe 98 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: and Central Asia. Now, the Soviet Union and the US 99 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: had actually been on the same side of World War II, 100 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 2: fighting against Nazi Germany. But in the aftermath of the war, 101 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 2: tensions grew significantly. And this is when we really entered 102 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: the Cold War era and it really came to be 103 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: viewed as a struggle not just between two random countries, 104 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 2: but between two totally competing systems. The US was a 105 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 2: capitalist democracy and the Soviet Union was a one party 106 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: communist state, and the conflict was framed as capitalism versus communism. 107 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 3: That does sound like a line that I would have 108 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 3: used in my year twelve essay when I was writing 109 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 3: about the Cold War. But even though we call it 110 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 3: this Cold War, and we talk about the fact that 111 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 3: it didn't necessarily get hot, there was a blurring of 112 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 3: lines between this hot and cold. Hot being you know, 113 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 3: real armed conflict involving real people, and cold being more 114 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 3: of this ideological soft. 115 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 4: Power, right. 116 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was actually hot in some parts of 117 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: the world. Both powers spent a lot of time trying 118 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 2: to secure territory or ensure they were friends with governments 119 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: in other countries. This led to the US fighting a 120 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,799 Speaker 2: war in Vietnam and led the Soviet Union to fighting 121 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 2: a war in Afghanistan, both of which were, as you said, 122 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 2: hot wars related to the US Soviet Union tensions, and 123 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 2: things did get pretty hot between the US and the 124 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 2: Soviet Union as well. There were a bunch of times 125 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: where one side or the other nearly pulled the trigger, 126 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 2: sometimes even accidentally. 127 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 3: Okay, So the Cold War ended in the nineties, and 128 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 3: you said at the top of this and the reason 129 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 3: we're talking about it today is that Mikhail Gorbachev, who 130 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 3: died yesterday, was actually credited with helping to bring this 131 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 3: war to a close. 132 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: Well, Gorbachev was the last head of the Soviet Union. 133 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: He became leader in nineteen eighty five and already had 134 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 2: a positive reputation over in the West, which continued when 135 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: he was in power. He really worked towards reducing nuclear 136 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 2: weapons on both sides. He did things like scaling down 137 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: the Soviet military force, and he pulled out of the 138 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 2: Soviet Union's war in Afghanistan. He also interestingly stopped intervening 139 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: when Communist territories rebelled, and this was really crucial in 140 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: the end. All over Eastern Europe parts of the Soviet 141 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: Union were rebelling and fighting to be independent states, and 142 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: because Gorbachev didn't respond with violence, the Union started to 143 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: break apart fairly peacefully. Now, the image that comes to 144 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: mind for me when I think about the end of 145 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: the Cold War was the fall of the Berlin Wall. 146 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: Berlin was a city that was split in half, with 147 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: the eastern half under Soviet control and the western half 148 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: with the West. There was one speech that US President 149 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan made at the war where he said, very famously, 150 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: mister Gorbatrov, mister Goerbatchrov, share down this unsack, Thank you 151 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: so much. That's my Reagan. Back home in the Soviet Union, 152 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: Gorbachev was a big reformer. He allowed more Western style 153 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: markets to be used, and he also allowed more openness 154 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: and criticism, especially after the disastrous failure of the Chernobyl 155 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: nuclear power plant. 156 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: Okay, so he was trying to reform communism from within. 157 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 4: How did that work out for him? 158 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 2: At the end of the day. It was this agenda 159 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: that really sowed the seeds for his own demise and 160 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: the fall of communism in the Soviet Union. The military 161 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: became frustrated and removed him from power, and shortly after 162 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: that the Communist Party was outlawed. 163 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 3: And what about Gorbachev's legacy at home? For example, we're 164 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 3: talking obviously from Australia retrospectively. 165 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: What's it like in today's Russia. I'll tell you in 166 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: just a second, But first a message from our sponsor. Okay, 167 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: we're back. So Gorbachev's legacy in Russia is pretty mean. 168 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: A lot of Russians and this is a narrative that 169 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: Vladimir Putin has pushed. In particular, see his leadership as 170 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: the beginning of the Soviet Union's decline. But if we 171 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: zoom out and take a more global perspective, he's seen 172 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 2: as a well regarded figure and was awarded a Nobel 173 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: Peace Prize for his role in ending the war. 174 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 3: Okay, so you just mentioned Putin there. How does the 175 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: war that's currently unfolding in Ukraine change our view of 176 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 3: this period? 177 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 4: Again retrospectively, this is. 178 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: A really big question. The end of the Cold War 179 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: brought this sense of optimism. By the time you and 180 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: I were born, there was this view that capitalism and 181 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 2: democracy had won even in the Soviet Union, and that 182 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: large scale global conflicts might be a thing of the past. 183 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 2: Now that clearly hasn't happened. Democracy hasn't survived in Russia, 184 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: and Putin, although he's not a communist, has certainly returned 185 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: Russia to a place of hostility, and he often talks 186 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: about territory in Ukraine, which was in the Soviet Union, 187 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: as having always belonged to Russia. In that sense, Gorbachev's 188 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 2: legacy in today's Russia hasn't really survived to the end 189 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 2: of his life. 190 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 3: It's really fascinating and it's good to sometimes take a 191 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 3: step back and look at the historical context of something, 192 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 3: especially when it helps us to understand a conflict like 193 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 3: Russia and Ukraine. 194 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 4: Today. Thank you for joining us on the Daily OZ. 195 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,719 Speaker 3: If you learned something from today's episode, don't forget to 196 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 3: hit subscribe so that there's a TDA episode waiting for 197 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 3: you every weekday morning. We'll be back again tomorrow, but 198 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 3: until then, have a great date.