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Speaker 1: Now, I'm sure you would have heard and seen in

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Speaker 1: the news in recent weeks that traditional owners are planning

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Speaker 1: to open Gunlan Falls next year. After Parks Australia was

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Speaker 1: hit with a massive fine over the construction of a

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Speaker 1: walkway in twenty nineteen through a sacred site. Now Parks

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Speaker 1: Australia pleaded guilty to damaging a rock art site and

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Speaker 1: was ordered to pay two hundred thousand dollars for that breach,

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Speaker 1: marking the first time that a Commonwealth agency has been

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Speaker 1: prosecuted under the Northern Territory Sacred Sites Laws. But it

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be the end of the issues for

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Speaker 1: Parks Australia, with Kagadoo tourism operators contacting me here at

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Speaker 1: the station with concerns about late openings as well as

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Speaker 1: early closures at particular areas with very little notice, is

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Speaker 1: what we're being told now. Joining us on the line

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Speaker 1: is empty driver guide operator and owner Deb frosh Oh.

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Speaker 1: Let me just make sure I've got you there, Deb.

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Speaker 1: Good morning to you, Deb.

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Speaker 2: Hi Katie, how are you? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Really good? Lovely to have you on.

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Speaker 2: The show now, Dad, thank you.

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Speaker 1: What are your concerns at the moments it's O Katie.

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Speaker 2: I'm a relatively new tour operator, but I've been working

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Speaker 2: in the industry here for about twelve years, so it's

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Speaker 2: not like it's a new thing, and I'm sort of

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Speaker 2: getting on the bandwagon as a new operator. So much

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Speaker 2: the industry as a whole. We all talk about these

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Speaker 2: things like on private Facebook pages and networking meetings, and

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Speaker 2: I think collectively the speak that I've been hearing over

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Speaker 2: the last week especially, is particularly after the Gunlom decision,

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Speaker 2: if we can call it that, one would think that

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Speaker 2: parks would be really keen to communicate well with everybody,

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Speaker 2: but particularly tour operators who pay permits to go to

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Speaker 2: certain places throughout the year to make sure that we

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Speaker 2: get the best out of the park for our guests.

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Speaker 2: And look, you know, we know that things are going

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Speaker 2: to close over the wet season, whether it's because of heat, water, crocodiles,

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Speaker 2: We're totally aware of that. But we pay a large

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Speaker 2: amount of money to run out tours. All of the

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Speaker 2: tour operators pay large amounts of money to have permits

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Speaker 2: to work in Kakadoo for twelve months at a time.

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Speaker 2: This year, however, for example, mcgook opened in August instead

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Speaker 2: of May and last as they were advised at three

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Speaker 2: thirty Thursday afternoon that the closer of Mcgook was immediate.

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Speaker 2: So we got three months out of our twelve months

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Speaker 2: this year.

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Speaker 1: So why was it closing immediately?

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Speaker 2: So I've made some inquiries to Kakadou and I have

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Speaker 2: actually just received in the last ten minutes some photos

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Speaker 2: of the road. So granted there is damage into Mcgook,

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Speaker 2: and there was. There's been a big discussion recently as

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Speaker 2: well about two will drivers going down into Mcgook and

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Speaker 2: getting stuck, and I personally pulled out four people unto

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Speaker 2: will drive vehicles out of the sands down the end.

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Speaker 2: So we understand that it's it's not ideal for everybody

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Speaker 2: with every vehicle. And the photos that I've just seen

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Speaker 2: literally in the last ten minutes do show that there

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Speaker 2: was quite a large amount of water over the road

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Speaker 2: actually at the top end of the road. But this

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Speaker 2: is a flood. It's a short term flood situation. It's

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Speaker 2: the same everywhere else. It's the same in Lichfield. I've

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Speaker 2: just spent the weekends down on the Reynolds track driving

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Speaker 2: through half a meter waters in my ball drive as

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Speaker 2: a tour operator in complete safety. We survived in Lichfield.

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Speaker 2: They had two big storms there last week. There was

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Speaker 2: some water over the road which looks like it was

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Speaker 2: probably about thirty or forty centimeters deep on the burst

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Speaker 2: and the decision was made to immediately close that road.

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Speaker 2: So why can we not go up and down these

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Speaker 2: roads in our ball drives as tour operators? But we

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Speaker 2: can in Lichfield for example, and we don't pay the

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Speaker 2: same but we still pay permits in Lichfield, but they're

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Speaker 2: nothing the same.

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Speaker 1: They're nowhere new, so deep I mean, obviously Kackadoo was

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Speaker 1: managed by the by Parks Australia as I understand it.

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Speaker 1: Lichfield managed by the Northern Territory Government. And do you

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Speaker 1: feel as though it's you know, like do you feel

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Speaker 1: as though you do get more notice and it's it's, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the right word is. Maybe a

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Speaker 1: little bit easier to work things out working with you know,

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Speaker 1: the NT government for Lichfield.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess because it's localized, we can always

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Speaker 2: ring Lichfield Parks management say hey, what's going on? And

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Speaker 2: we can do that with Kakadu with like I've got

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Speaker 2: really good relationships with Kackadoo, there's a there's a tourism advisor.

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Speaker 2: He talks to me. We have good relationship and he

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Speaker 2: actually escalated this to me last week and the result

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Speaker 2: is is now I have photos. So I guess the

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Speaker 2: answer is because it's Parks Australia, it is a little

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Speaker 2: harder to communicate with them. But I think one of

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Speaker 2: the things that's been brought up recently is the communication

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Speaker 2: that goes out for a start, no notice at all.

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Speaker 2: And this was brought up in May when you know,

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Speaker 2: we we were talking about why can't we get into

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Speaker 2: my book because the road was closed and we were

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Speaker 2: just getting stone faced responses. Was the response was, well

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Speaker 2: it's closed because of damage, so show us the damage

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Speaker 2: so we can understand why we're having trouble running our

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Speaker 2: tours or why we can't go there. So I've had

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Speaker 2: to ask the question, wait a few days, get a

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Speaker 2: photograph which has been sent to me, and I've suggested

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Speaker 2: send these photos across the board to people and we'll

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Speaker 2: understand and probably back off or what have you?

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Speaker 1: Is Magook the only place where this has happened or

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Speaker 1: have you like, has it been in some other locations?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it's not the only place. Obviously, we haven't

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Speaker 2: had access to Gundlam and that's another story. And we're

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Speaker 2: hoping it will be opening. We listen to the pos

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Speaker 2: and they're saying it'll be open next year, but you know,

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Speaker 2: we'll see. Who knows what the road's like. Will we

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Speaker 2: be able to get in there? Jim Jim. They gave

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Speaker 2: us about a week's notice closed on the thirty first October,

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Speaker 2: and with that road is always an issue. And of

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Speaker 2: course the heat climbing into gym Gym, it's been hot

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Speaker 2: out there. We get it. But another example is, for example,

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Speaker 2: Uber Rock in the wet season, Kaki do offer tour

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Speaker 2: operators the opportunity to have a key to access the

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Speaker 2: rock Art area through the wet season. At times when

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Speaker 2: it's not open to the general public. However, they will

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Speaker 2: close the Owunpelly roads so we can't actually get there.

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Speaker 1: So from that decision I mean, is that a decision

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Speaker 1: being made by Parks Australia or by traditional owners.

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Speaker 2: Well, the communication comes from Parks Australia. Whether it's actually

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Speaker 2: traditional owners or not, who's to say. But I think

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Speaker 2: the frustration overall is Katie is when we ask questions

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Speaker 2: as to why we don't really get answers, and if

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Speaker 2: we understood well, then we'd be able to probably not

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Speaker 2: be quite as irritated things we're trying to sell products

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Speaker 2: a year out or six months about we don't know

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Speaker 2: what's going to be open when, and we'd like reasons.

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Speaker 1: Well, And this is I think, you know, the biggest

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Speaker 1: point that I would imagine is becoming quite frustrating for

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Speaker 1: any tour operator is that if you don't have that

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Speaker 1: certainty either way, like at least if you know something's

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Speaker 1: closed and you know the reasons why you've got that certainty,

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Speaker 1: then you won't book those tours potentially. But if you're

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Speaker 1: being told something's going to be open for a certain

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Speaker 1: period of time, then you operate your business accordingly. But

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Speaker 1: by the sounds of it, that communication is not necessarily there,

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Speaker 1: and I've no doubt it's having a big impact for

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Speaker 1: you then, particularly with international tourists who would have to

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Speaker 1: book very early.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. So for example, this week, I'm taking

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Speaker 2: a couple out from Sweden who booked in November last

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Speaker 2: year for next week. For this week, their dream was

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Speaker 2: to swim in the outback and the natural landscape of

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Speaker 2: kakado Whilst I don't generally market to say come swimming

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Speaker 2: in Kackadoo because I'm very cautious do that. I felt

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Speaker 2: that it was safe and I've had to ask permission

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Speaker 2: now to go to another site. And if that's not possible,

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Speaker 2: well then I have to drive to Edith Falls. We're

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Speaker 2: not going to Lichfield on this tour, so that means

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Speaker 2: I need to reroute our itinery. It's a three day itinery.

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Speaker 2: I wish for inker me costs because I have to

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Speaker 2: drive another four hundred five hundred kilometers. So I still

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Speaker 2: need to give them this thing that they really really want,

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Speaker 2: even if it's not in Kakadu, it's somewhere else yep.

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Speaker 2: And the Kakadu website actually says things like mygook most

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Speaker 2: likely to be open May to October. Well, this year

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Speaker 2: was August to October, and it was the same to

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Speaker 2: a lesser extent with Jim Jim.

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Speaker 1: Well, and the thing is dip like I've not long

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Speaker 1: ago come back from New Zealand where my young fella

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Speaker 1: really wanted to mountain bike in Queenstown. Now, you absolutely

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Speaker 1: you look at that website, you look at it daily

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Speaker 1: to make sure that the actual you know that that

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Speaker 1: track is going to be open to go across and

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Speaker 1: do what you want to do your book accordingly in

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Speaker 1: terms of getting there to be able to do it,

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Speaker 1: and you do understand that whether in different things are

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Speaker 1: going to have an impact as it did when we

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Speaker 1: were in New Zealand and lucky we're there for a

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Speaker 1: little bit longer so it could still do it. But

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Speaker 1: these are the types of considerations that people take into

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Speaker 1: account when they're booking something. So then you know, if

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Speaker 1: changes come about and there's not really a reason given,

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Speaker 1: it would become utterly frustrating, I would think for you

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Speaker 1: as an operator trying to market your business to international tourists.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely well to anybody. But also you know, we're aware

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Speaker 2: that things close that traditional owners will close for cultural reasons,

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Speaker 2: story business, et cetera. We totally get that, and that

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Speaker 2: can happen very at very short notice. Yeah, so all

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Speaker 2: the too operators I know that we've been talking about.

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Speaker 2: Of course, we have a clause in our terms and

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Speaker 2: conditions that says subject to availability, cultural reasons, whether et cetera.

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Speaker 2: We get it, but we just want better communication from Kakadu.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to waste my time having to ask

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Speaker 2: permission to go to places that either I've already paid

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Speaker 2: for technically through my permit, or alternatively, there are places

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Speaker 2: that are open to the general public that tour operators

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Speaker 2: are not allowed to go to. Yeah, so we now

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Speaker 2: have to ask permission to say can we go there instead?

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Speaker 2: And we're business owners, we're not children. We are responsible.

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Speaker 2: We understand the culture, we understand the landscape. That's while

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Speaker 2: we're to a guide and we're passionate about this country.

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Speaker 2: And I guess overall it is what it is. But

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Speaker 2: the communication is probably the bigger issue. And I've got

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Speaker 2: great relationships out there, and this conversation I do not want,

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Speaker 2: you know, is not designed to upset those relationships. But

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Speaker 2: I think we're all banging our heads against the wall

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Speaker 2: asking for better communications and trust that we do understand is.

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Speaker 1: That ultimately what you are after is that better communication.

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Speaker 2: That's right, We've got all this technology over the years.

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Speaker 2: I've done tours where I've done day tours and driven

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Speaker 2: all the way out to Kakado on the day to

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Speaker 2: find the gates to be closed. But the report that

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Speaker 2: came out that morning says that it's open, or maybe

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Speaker 2: the afternoon before and because there's been a cultural activity

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Speaker 2: or situation they've had to close it. That's okay, And

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Speaker 2: yes we do have limited mobile service, etc. But why

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Speaker 2: don't we have the telecommunications or the technology to text

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Speaker 2: message to our operators as early as they know six o'clock,

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Speaker 2: seven o'clock in the morning, I don't know, but as

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Speaker 2: soon as they know. We should not be notified of

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Speaker 2: these closures immediately. If it's a short term for like

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Speaker 2: a sudden yea. And if it's not sudden, well then

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Speaker 2: we need to see photos, or even if it is sudden,

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Speaker 2: if it's not cultural, we need to see photos. Why

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Speaker 2: can't we go down these roads? Why they closed?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I've no doubt that you are not alone

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Speaker 1: in concerns. I'm sure that we'll probably hear from other

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Speaker 1: operators or even other tourists in fact, that are probably

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Speaker 1: going to get in contact with us. So I really

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Speaker 1: appreciate you having a chat with me this morning. And yeah, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm keen to continue the discussion, so I'll see whether

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Speaker 1: we can get in contact with Parks Australia. I know

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Speaker 1: it's something that does get raised to raised with us.

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Speaker 1: Pretty well every year, and it just beggars believe to

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Speaker 1: me that there's not a better system in place so

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Speaker 1: that it works for everybody, you know, for you guys

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Speaker 1: as operators, for our traditional owners, and indeed you know,

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Speaker 1: for tourists wanting to head on out there.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. And the other thing is is that making sure

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Speaker 2: that tourists who are independent, yeah, are given the right

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Speaker 2: information that this road is not okay for a higher

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Speaker 2: car or a too will drive, and maybe we set

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Speaker 2: up a situation where that then naturally drives more tourists

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Speaker 2: to us as tour operators because they feel they can't

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Speaker 2: go down there, yep. And then of course the con

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Speaker 2: based in Darwin. But there are a couple of operators

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Speaker 2: in Kackadoo who run their business only on Kackadoo and

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Speaker 2: they rely on this information one hundred percent. I know

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Speaker 2: you've spoken to a couple over the years. I remember

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Speaker 2: hearing it, yep. And I haven't spoken to one or

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Speaker 2: two of them yet, but they'd be mortified to know

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Speaker 2: that their last maybe three or four weeks of running

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Speaker 2: was just shut down last week with zero notice.

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Speaker 1: Yep. Well, deb, thank you so much for your time

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Speaker 1: this morning. I really appreciate it. If there is anyone

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Speaker 1: else that is keen to have a chat to us

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Speaker 1: that you know of, send them our way, because I

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Speaker 1: think it's a discussion that needs to be had, particularly

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Speaker 1: you know, when we are looking at a time right

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Speaker 1: now territory is number one on Netflix across the world, Like,

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Speaker 1: we want to capitalize on this in the right ways.

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Speaker 1: We want you know, you want tour operators, you want

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Speaker 1: us here in Darwin, you want traditional loaners, you want

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Speaker 1: everybody to benefit from that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And on top of that, finally, tourism mentee spend

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Speaker 2: millions and minds of dollars promoting this country and we

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Speaker 2: can't get there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yep, well, deb yeah, that is incredibly frustrating. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so very much for having a chat with me

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Speaker 1: this morning. I really appreciate it. Thank you,