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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now.

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Speaker 2: And our emotions are like leaves and rippers. They float

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Speaker 2: past and then they disappear. The reason that the emotion

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Speaker 2: stays for a long time is because we damn up

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Speaker 2: the river. We try to block the leaves from floating away.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Every Tuesday on the Happy Families podcast, we answer a

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Speaker 2: listener question. You can send your questions to podcasts that's

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Speaker 2: podcasts with an s at happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: My name's Justin. I'm here with Kylie, my wife and

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Speaker 2: mum to our six kids. We've got a few years

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Speaker 2: of parenting experience between us, haven't we, Honey. Our eldest

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Speaker 2: daughter is twenty three and a half and we have

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Speaker 2: six daughters. Our youngest is still in primary school grade three,

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Speaker 2: eight years old, about to turn nine. The clock's ticking.

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Speaker 2: We've got ten years to go quietly until we no

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Speaker 2: longer have any parents, so that will be a combined

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Speaker 2: total of thirty three years. Thirty three years of parenting

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Speaker 2: children from the time we had our firstborn until the

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Speaker 2: time our last born turns eighteen. So here's the thing,

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Speaker 2: thirty three years.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't ever end.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know, I know, but that's the whole

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Speaker 2: We've got kids in the house that are dependent on us.

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Speaker 2: I look at how much our parents go through now

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Speaker 2: that they've got adult children, like properly adult children. In fact,

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Speaker 2: my parents just became great grandparents. That's crazy, that is crazy.

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Speaker 2: So they became grandparents obviously when we had our kids.

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Speaker 2: But I have a sister who had a child very young,

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Speaker 2: a daughter very young, and that daughter has just had

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Speaker 2: her first baby very young. So my parents are great grandparents.

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Speaker 2: They're not even seventy yet and they're great grandparents. I

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Speaker 2: think it's phenomenal. It's amazing. So we're not here to

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Speaker 2: talk about that, but that's who we are. We've got

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Speaker 2: a few We've got a few years of parenting experience

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Speaker 2: under the belt, is all I'm saying. And I've got

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Speaker 2: a PhD in psychology. I'll love to talk about how

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Speaker 2: to make families happier. Today's question, Kylie, comes from somebody

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Speaker 2: who wanted to remain anonymous. They've just signed their email

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Speaker 2: to us J with an X. I guess the excess

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Speaker 2: for a kiss. They've said, Hi, Kylie and Justin. I

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Speaker 2: have a six and a half year old daughter, intelligent

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Speaker 2: and sassy, but also can be extremely sensitive and finds

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Speaker 2: it hard to separate from hubby and I, but especially me.

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Speaker 2: This has been an ongoing issue since she started daycare

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Speaker 2: at two years old and continues now as she's in

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Speaker 2: grade one. Growing up, the term sensitive was applied to me,

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Speaker 2: but always in a negative way. You're too sensitive. You

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Speaker 2: shouldn't think that way. I know now that it can

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Speaker 2: be a wonderful, amazing thing to be sensitive, but I'm

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Speaker 2: very conscious of others labeling her in the same way

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Speaker 2: they labeled me. Also, how can I guide her so

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Speaker 2: that her sensitivity does not cause her so much emotional distress?

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Speaker 2: She struggles so much already with the separation issues, school avoidance,

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Speaker 2: and finds the ever changing dynamics of little girl friendships

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Speaker 2: so difficult. Would love to hear your thoughts, Jay, So, Kylie,

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Speaker 2: there's a few things to talk about here. We've got

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Speaker 2: the sensitivity other people's judgments. We've also got school avoidance

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Speaker 2: and little girl friendships being difficult, a whole lot to

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Speaker 2: talk about a short podcast. This is the podcast for

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Speaker 2: the time poor parent who just wants answers now. So

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Speaker 2: I think we'll see if we can help Jay with

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Speaker 2: just some Kickstarter ideas on each of those things. Where

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Speaker 2: would you like to start? What about if we start

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Speaker 2: with what other people are saying about your sensitive child?

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Speaker 2: I think we can take that one off nice and quickly.

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Speaker 3: I think that mums are keenly aware of it more

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Speaker 3: so than dads.

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Speaker 2: Is this the mother guilt thing or do you think

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Speaker 2: of something else?

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Speaker 3: I think it's the mother bear and us who wants

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Speaker 3: to protect We have this deep need to protect our

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Speaker 3: kids from hurt. Yeah, not the physical hurt that I

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Speaker 3: think dads are keen to protect them from, that emotional

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Speaker 3: hurt because we've experienced at such an intimate level ourselves

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Speaker 3: as younger children. And so for me, the thought that

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Speaker 3: somebody would think badly about my child, they don't even

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Speaker 3: have to say it, just that they would think badly

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Speaker 3: or view my child in a negative way.

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Speaker 2: You don't want your child to be misunderstood much breaking.

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Speaker 3: It's heartbreaking. So what I'm about to say is going

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Speaker 3: to feel so harsh.

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Speaker 2: Really, you're going to say something provocative.

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Speaker 3: That's my job, and it's something that I struggle with

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Speaker 3: to this day. But I heard it and it makes

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Speaker 3: so much sense.

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Speaker 2: If only I could love it. What is it?

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Speaker 3: It's really none of my business what other people think.

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Speaker 3: I don't have any control over it. I could manipulate

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Speaker 3: every possible situation to frame my child in a positive light,

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Speaker 3: and there will still be someone who will see them

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Speaker 3: in a bad way because that's their choice and their prerogative.

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Speaker 2: But we still want them to think nice about our kids.

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Speaker 2: I know it's not our business, but we really want

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Speaker 2: people to like our kids because we see our kids

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Speaker 2: as an extension or reflection of us, and if they

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Speaker 2: don't like our kids, that can feel like we're being

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Speaker 2: rejected totally.

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Speaker 3: And I guess that's where building the village is so important,

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Speaker 3: finding safe people who love your children. We had a

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Speaker 3: child who massive emotions, massive emotions, and she literally did

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Speaker 3: not get invited to birthday parties, She wasn't included in

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Speaker 3: any social outings. She was not able to be, you know,

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Speaker 3: socialized with other people.

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Speaker 2: Yes, totally.

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Speaker 3: Parents had decided her big emotions meant that she was

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Speaker 3: not a child that they wanted their children to associate with.

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Speaker 3: And yet there were a handful of people who saw

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Speaker 3: her for her and fiercely, I'm talking fiercely. They became

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Speaker 3: like second mothers to her. They loved her, and to

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Speaker 3: this day they are a safe place for her to go.

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Speaker 3: And they're the people you want in your corner.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because you can't.

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Speaker 3: You can't, you can't change the whole environment. You can't

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Speaker 3: fix everybody.

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Speaker 2: And it's not just the I know there's some judgment

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Speaker 2: out there, and I get what Jay is saying in

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Speaker 2: this email that I don't want my daughter to be

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Speaker 2: judged as being sensitive. But people are going to make

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Speaker 2: judgments about our kids no matter what, and they might

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Speaker 2: judge them as being sensitive, or they might think that

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Speaker 2: they're too boisterous, or they're loud, or they're arrogant, and

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Speaker 2: they think that they know everything. Like, there's always going

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Speaker 2: to be some judgment, and our job is to be

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Speaker 2: comfortable enough in our own skin that we're okay with

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Speaker 2: other people thinking things about our children. Because those other people,

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Speaker 2: they're getting a snapshot, they're getting a moment in time.

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Speaker 2: They don't really know what our child is, who our

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Speaker 2: child is, what they're capable of, and further to that,

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Speaker 2: they've got it's important for all of us to remember

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Speaker 2: that children are on a tremendous developmental trajectory, and this snapshot,

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Speaker 2: this moment in time, is just that tomorrow, next week,

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Speaker 2: next year, you will have a somewhat different child. Sure,

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Speaker 2: some characteristics are consistent and stable over time, but the

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Speaker 2: child still grows and learns and matures and develops them.

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Speaker 2: Your idea kind of ties in with something that I

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Speaker 2: wanted to say, not about being sensitive to what other

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Speaker 2: people are judging about this little six and a half

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Speaker 2: year old, but rather the sensitivity that the child has.

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Speaker 2: I want to again say something that's a little bit provocative,

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Speaker 2: a little bit hard here, but I think it's really important,

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Speaker 2: and that is be careful not to put your own

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Speaker 2: labels onto a child. You were sensitive, Now you're saying

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Speaker 2: that you've got a sensitive child. But children are sensitive,

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Speaker 2: but they're also not They have their moments in every direction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But I think also there's an acknowledgment that she's now

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Speaker 3: coming to a place where she's learning and recognizing that

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Speaker 3: being sensitive doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and I think the whole community is coming to

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Speaker 2: that recognition.

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Speaker 3: The opportunity she has to help her child recognize and

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Speaker 3: see that being sensitive is actually a black but it

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Speaker 3: comes with a heavy burden at times because you feel

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Speaker 3: so deeply and you experience the good and the bad,

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Speaker 3: but without the bad, we don't actually get to feel

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Speaker 3: the full experience of the good, and so it feels

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Speaker 3: like a double edged sword. But it can be so just.

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Speaker 3: Life can be so much more fruitful if we're willing to,

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Speaker 3: you know, really feel and live into the experiences that

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Speaker 3: we have.

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Speaker 2: So to extend on what you've just said and sort

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Speaker 2: of round out what I was going to suggest in

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Speaker 2: terms of this child's big emotions, because the child clearly

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Speaker 2: does have some sensitivities and wants to not separate from

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Speaker 2: not separate from Dad, is struggling a bit with school.

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Speaker 2: We've got the school avoidance. I would add, we need

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Speaker 2: to become comfortable with our children feeling uncomfortable at times,

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Speaker 2: because when we demonstrate unease at our child's big emotions,

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Speaker 2: our child is actually going to receive some level of

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Speaker 2: reinforcement from seeing our discomfort with their discomfort.

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Speaker 3: Whereas if we can get reinforce is the fact that

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Speaker 3: they should feel that way. Precisely, some feels uncomfortable about

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Speaker 3: this situation. So clearly there's something here that I can't

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Speaker 3: see right. It's bigger than me.

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Speaker 2: And then we get this negative emotional spiral. As each

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Speaker 2: person feeds off the other. There's a contagion to that emotion.

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Speaker 2: Emotions are contagious. So what I would say to Jay

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Speaker 2: is take a breath, and when your child is feeling uncomfortable,

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Speaker 2: maybe detach yourself a little bit from the outcome. Detach

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Speaker 2: yourself a bit from the emotion. Obviously, you care very

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Speaker 2: much about your child. I'm not saying detach yourself from

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Speaker 2: your child, but just recognize, well, right now, my child

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Speaker 2: was having this big emotion. I used to love to

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Speaker 2: use the metaphor, and I haven't done it for a

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Speaker 2: long time. I haven't been asked to teach the anxiety

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Speaker 2: content for a while, but I used to in my

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Speaker 2: anxiety workshop, talk about the visualization of a leaf floating

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Speaker 2: down a river, and you can watch the leaf fall

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Speaker 2: out of the tree, hit the water, float down past

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Speaker 2: you as you sit on that beautiful grassy river bank

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Speaker 2: in the sun. Watch that leaf float down around the

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Speaker 2: river bend until it's out of sight. And our emotions

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Speaker 2: are like leaves and rippers. They float past and then

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Speaker 2: they disappear. The reason that the emotion stays for a

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Speaker 2: long time is because we keep feeding it. We dam

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Speaker 2: up the river, we try to block the leaves from

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Speaker 2: floating away. We say, oh, you're having a big emotion.

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Speaker 2: We need to talk about the emotions. This is a

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Speaker 2: controversial thing to say, because I'm aware that in our

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Speaker 2: current way of thinking about psychology of emotions, that we

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Speaker 2: really do elevate emotions, and we pay attention to emotions.

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Speaker 2: Emotions so data emotions tell us so much. But sometimes

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Speaker 2: I think we elevate emotions too much. Sometimes I think

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Speaker 2: that we focus so much on the emotion that somebody

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Speaker 2: is having, We focus so deeply on their emotional experience.

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Speaker 2: We get so invested in the emotion that the emotion

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Speaker 2: begins to drive everything that we're doing in terms of

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Speaker 2: the way our household functions, the way we interact with

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Speaker 2: other people. Sometimes it's okay to say, you're having a

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Speaker 2: really big emotion right now, aren't you. Let's just watch

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Speaker 2: that emotion float around the corner like a leaf in

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Speaker 2: a river, and then we'll get on with things. So

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Speaker 2: have the emotion, let it happen safely, but don't make

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Speaker 2: a big deal about it and just get on with it.

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Speaker 3: And I think that that's where a healthy appreciation for

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Speaker 3: emotions happens, when we're able to acknowledge the emotion and

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Speaker 3: then let it go. Yeah, that's the trick. It's like

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Speaker 3: my training able to let it go.

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Speaker 2: My train in the tunnel metaphor, the train will always

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Speaker 2: come out of the tunnel. It goes into the mountain

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Speaker 2: that comes out the other side. Sometimes the tunnel is

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Speaker 2: really really long, but there's no point pulling out the

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Speaker 2: earth moving equipment is starting to make a big mess

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Speaker 2: by digging up the mountain to pull the train out.

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Speaker 2: It will come out eventually with no mess whatsoever. If

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Speaker 2: we just say, Okay, big emotion, let's give it an hour,

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Speaker 2: let's give it ten minutes, let's give it a day,

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Speaker 2: like I had to with you just recently, and the

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Speaker 2: train comes out of the tunnel and things get better.

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Speaker 3: So, having worked in childcare in our early days of marriage,

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Speaker 3: one of the things that always used to astound me

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Speaker 3: before I was a parent was to see these massive

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Speaker 3: emotions of children. Was working in the todd of the room,

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Speaker 3: massive emotions with our children as mums and dads tried

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Speaker 3: to say by and walk out and then as soon as.

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Speaker 2: My dad left, running and playing and happy, it.

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Speaker 3: Was like a light bulb switch and they had completely

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Speaker 3: changed their tune and they're okay. And so often the

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Speaker 3: separation anxiety that our children experience is actually feeding off

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Speaker 3: the anxiety that we have for leaving them because we

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Speaker 3: feel bad, yes, and it's really really hard to get

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Speaker 3: over that. But if we don't come to terms with

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Speaker 3: our own separation anxiety, then our children never will. It

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Speaker 3: will just continue to feed on each other. And so

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Speaker 3: the power in recognizing that your child, you are literally

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Speaker 3: taking your child to a safe place. They have teachers

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Speaker 3: who love and care for them, and they will have

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Speaker 3: a great day if you can live into that and

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Speaker 3: walk away nice, calm, cool, collected.

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Speaker 2: And compassionate and kind. It's not like you walk in

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Speaker 2: and say you're safe here, have a good day, and

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Speaker 2: you walk away. It's not cold, there's nothing harsh. And

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Speaker 2: I'm not even sure if that detachment word that I

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Speaker 2: used earlier is is the right word, because you are attached,

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Speaker 2: of course, but there's an emotional stability, there's an emotional

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Speaker 2: confidence that we want to have as parents to help

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Speaker 2: our kids realize, yeah, we get it's hard, but we

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Speaker 2: know that you'll be okay.

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Speaker 3: Conversations in the car pre arming our children about what's

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Speaker 3: going to happen. Mum's going to get there, We're going

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Speaker 3: to put your bag away, We're going to say hello

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Speaker 3: to your teacher, and then mum's going to give you

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Speaker 3: a cuddle and a kiss, and I'm going to leave.

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Speaker 3: I will be back at three o'clock. They can. You know,

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Speaker 3: she's six and a half, so she can read the

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Speaker 3: time on the clock. She knows. And then once I

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Speaker 3: pick you up, we're going to go and visit Grandma,

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Speaker 3: or we're going to go to the park with your

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Speaker 3: friend or whatever. It is pre arming them about what's

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Speaker 3: going to happen and then giving them something to look

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Speaker 3: forward to at the other end of the day. It

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Speaker 3: can be really powerful as well.

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Speaker 2: So the last thing we need to talk about is

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Speaker 2: school avoidance and those challenging friendships. We've got a really

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Speaker 2: great article online about dealing with when school feels horrible

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Speaker 2: for kids, and I also had one about school refusal

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Speaker 2: that I wrote last year. We will link to both

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Speaker 2: of those articles in our show notes rather than talking

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Speaker 2: about it at length in the podcast. Because there's so

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Speaker 2: much we could talk about. I just want to mention

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Speaker 2: a couple of things, friendships and relationships. If we can

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Speaker 2: build great relationships at school and also great relationships outside

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Speaker 2: of school, I think you're going to find that that

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Speaker 2: kids tend to want to be where their friends are,

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Speaker 2: and so if they've got some relationships that have been

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Speaker 2: built in a healthy way at school, they're much more

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Speaker 2: likely to want to be there, And school should go easier.

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Speaker 2: The higher quality of the friendships at school, the easier

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Speaker 2: it goes. But also have friendships outside of school, so

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Speaker 2: that school isn't the only place, because it can be

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Speaker 2: a dynamic place. Friendships chop and change a lot, and

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Speaker 2: so we want to give kids every opportunity in and

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Speaker 2: outside of school.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the last thing is just to remember

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Speaker 3: that friendships, relationships, and all of this big emotion stuff,

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Speaker 3: it just takes time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and kids will mature a.

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Speaker 3: Level of age maturity that needs to take place for

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Speaker 3: these things to fall into place. But some kids, not

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Speaker 3: all kids. Some kids just fall into life and everything

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Speaker 3: seems to be easy for them, But there are other

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Speaker 3: kids a little bit more sensitive just struggle and it's

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Speaker 3: a time thing. And we're watching that with our children.

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Speaker 2: It's funny going full circle to the start of our conversation.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about all the years of bearning experience that

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Speaker 2: we've got with so many children and so many years

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Speaker 2: of this, and I reckon in understanding Jay's email. If

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Speaker 2: this was our first child, our six and a half

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Speaker 2: year old going through this, we would have been so worried.

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Speaker 2: We would have been so concerned about this sort of stuff,

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Speaker 2: having been through it as many times as we have now,

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Speaker 2: it's actually one of those things where if we can

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Speaker 2: take a breath and say, you know what, I've got

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Speaker 2: to trust. I can trust in my child's innate desire

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Speaker 2: to create healthy relationships. Just having that trust in them

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Speaker 2: is probably enough. I feel so differently about it now

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Speaker 2: than how you and I would have felt about it

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Speaker 2: eighteen years ago when we were going through it ourselves

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Speaker 2: for the first time. And Jay, I guess the last

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Speaker 2: piece of advice therefore would be take a breather and trust.

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Speaker 2: Just trust that your child is organismically designed to find

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Speaker 2: a way through this and to do it in a

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Speaker 2: healthy and productive way. You just create a supportive environment

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Speaker 2: and she'll be all right. The Happy Family's podcast is

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Speaker 2: produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is

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Speaker 2: our executive producer, and if you'd like more info about

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Speaker 2: how to make your family happier, visit us at happy

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Speaker 2: families dot com dot au