1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Hello, it's Amantha here. How I Work is on a 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: little mini break, and so today I am bringing you 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: one of my favorite How I Work episodes that I've 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: recorded over the last year. If you're a knowledge worker, 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 1: the quality of your thinking ultimately determines the quality of 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: your work. So how do you improve the quality of 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: your thinking? Well, that's a. 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 2: Pretty big question now. 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: One person trying to answer that question is Tim Urban, 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: the author of the incredibly successful blog called Wait But Why. 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: Tim writes about everything from careers to the state of 12 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: American power, to Elon Musk's vision for the future, and 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: of course he writes about thinking and how we can 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: get better at it. Tim shares how to break big, 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: difficult ideas into smaller, more manageable components, and outlines how 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: he fights procrastination. My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm 17 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. 18 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: And this is How I Work, a show about how 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. One of Tim's 20 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: most notable public appearances was his ted talk about procrastination, 21 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: which has been viewed by over. 22 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 2: Sixty three million people. 23 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: And if you haven't seen it, if you're not one 24 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: of those sixty three million people. You should check it 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: out immediately because it's brilliant. I wanted to know whether 26 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: Tim had developed new strategies for beating procrastination since he 27 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: delivered that Ted talk several years ago. 28 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 3: My life's work is trying to conquer my own procrastination. 29 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,919 Speaker 3: So yeah, I like that you said that are working 30 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: because there's a lot of articles on how to beat 31 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: the destination, a lot of advice. And what I find 32 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,919 Speaker 3: is that most procrastinators, like myself, read one of those articles, 33 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 3: we get super inspired. We think I'm doing this, this 34 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 3: is it, I'm doing that from now on. I'm all set, 35 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 3: like I just figured on. And then maybe we do 36 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: it for a day or two, or maybe we don't 37 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 3: even do it at all, and then and then move 38 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: back to where we were right. So what actually works? 39 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 3: I think there's two categories of solution here. One is 40 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: a picture that your habits are kind of a boat 41 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 3: that you're in, and if you're a procrastinator, it means 42 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: something about the boat's not working well, like there's a 43 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 3: there's a leak, or there's something's broken. 44 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: And so the two categories of solution for something like this, Are. 45 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 3: You repair the boat in a permanent way, like you 46 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,679 Speaker 3: actually fix the thing and it's fixed, or you put 47 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 3: temporary duct tape or something over the pole and it's 48 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 3: not permanent. It's not actually fixed. The boat's still broken, 49 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 3: but it's the leak isn't happening right now because you've 50 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: you've taped it up for a while. 51 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: And so what I've been trying for the obviously. 52 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 3: Ideally you're the first category where you're actually changing your 53 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,959 Speaker 3: habits and you're growing as a human and you're you're 54 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 3: not the way you used to be anymore. And so 55 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 3: for that category, the it's I've been trying to a 56 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 3: couple of things. I've been trying to remind myself that 57 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 3: even a big you know, we have this idea in 58 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 3: the US at least, that forty hours is a good 59 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 3: work week. 60 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: You know, eight hour day is a good work day. 61 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: It's like half the half the day. You know, you 62 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: have sixteen awaking hours put in eight good hours of 63 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: working done a full day. 64 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 3: If you actually go into most people's offices or most 65 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 3: people's workplaces who say they were forty hours a week, 66 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: and you look at what they're actually doing and how 67 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 3: much of that is really on focusing, deep focus on 68 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 3: real work. 69 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 2: The number is usually a lot less than forty. 70 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 3: And I would say I've found that I think as 71 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 3: a writer, at least if I put in three deep 72 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 3: focused hours, that's a huge that's a great day, like 73 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 3: I if I but but but. 74 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: It's the psychology is weird where in my head it's like. 75 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: If I wake up at you know, eight thirty, and 76 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: I think, if I just pull my lap up onto 77 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 3: the bed and work till eleven thirty, I'm done. Something 78 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 3: about that doesn't It's like the perfectionist to me is like, well, no, 79 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 3: I have to work all day. And what I find 80 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 3: is that I'll spend the whole day sitting around working, 81 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: except I'm like in this kind of gray areas where 82 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 3: I'm supposed to be working but I'm not, or that 83 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 3: I am a little and then I stop and there's 84 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 3: a lot of breaks, and so it's this kind of 85 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: gray area not really playing, not really working, soone that 86 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: I spend a ton of time. And I call it 87 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 3: the dark playground where you're kind of in leisure time 88 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 3: you're not supposed to be in leasure time. I will 89 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 3: I will put in a huge amounts of hours each week, 90 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 3: and then I'll find that in the end, if I 91 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: really were honest about how many of those are real 92 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 3: hous it adds up to about three hours a day 93 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 3: at a really good week. So the point is what 94 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 3: I'm trying to get better at is less of this 95 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 3: permanent gray area between work and play and more like, 96 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 3: I am going to get my three hours done, and 97 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 3: the psychology of that to be like instead of you know, 98 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 3: thinking I have this whole ahead. No no, no, if I 99 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 3: just wait three hours, I'm free for the whole day, 100 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 3: but really doing it doing those three hours, because it 101 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 3: compiles that's fifteen hours a week, that's sixty real hours 102 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 3: a month. 103 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: You can fly through projects. 104 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: And then genuinely on the other side of it having playtime. 105 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: So it's turning. 106 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: Grades black and white where you're not just doing one 107 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 3: side of the yin yang, but you're actually doing the 108 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 3: other two. You're genuinely playing when you're not giving yourself 109 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 3: guilt free off time where you're doing high quality stuff 110 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 3: and you're having fun in guilt free funds. It recharges 111 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: your battery for the hardcore work zone the next day. 112 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 3: So it's either going to be a hardcore work zone 113 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 3: or nothing at all. That's where I'm trying to get. 114 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 3: That is much more effective than kind of sitting here 115 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 3: all day. 116 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: Not kind of working. So there's a bunch of things. 117 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: I have a bunch of strategies like that. 118 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: Now the second pile of strategies is the duct tape, right, 119 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 3: And so what I'm trying to do is while I 120 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 3: build that habit, for example, is I'm trying to duct 121 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: tape the boat into that habit. I have a colleague, Alisha, 122 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 3: and she is the wave wise manager of lots of things, 123 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 3: but why employee, and she does like a million things. 124 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 3: And one of the things that her job entails is 125 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 3: dealing with my. 126 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: Flaws and like procrastination. 127 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 3: That's why my procrastination has very much become her problem. 128 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 3: And so one of the things one of the things 129 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 3: that we've been doing, which has been great, and again 130 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 3: it's treating myself like a baby, but it sometimes that's 131 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 3: reading to do, is we have as either in person 132 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 3: or on slack video nine thirty to twelve thirty. You know, 133 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 3: these three hours in the morning, the three hours I 134 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: want to be deep focusing at minimum, we have her 135 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 3: either sitting next to me, or she can see my screen, 136 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 3: or I share my screen with her on Zoo and 137 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 3: she's working on her own stuff. She's not just staring 138 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 3: at my screen. But I me knowing that she might 139 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 3: be looking at my screen. It's enough external pressure to 140 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 3: be like, well, I'm not going to go dick around 141 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 3: right now like someone's watching me, and then I find 142 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 3: I get my work done because she knows exactly what's 143 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 3: supposed to be in my screen and what's not. 144 00:06:58,200 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: I'm not going to go start texting when she's looking 145 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: at I scream. So I'm just going to work. 146 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 3: And it's not like recrest centers often you don't have 147 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 3: to drag them, you know, clawing and fighting to work. 148 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 2: You just have to give them like. 149 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 3: A little push when they're like I don't want to 150 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 3: It's like, oh okay, fine, right, So that to me 151 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 3: is enough of a push to get me to do 152 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 3: those three hours. So again, that's duct taping the boat 153 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 3: because I still if at Lash is not there, then 154 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: I won't do it. 155 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: Probably fixing the boat means I don't need her anymore. 156 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 3: I'm just going to do this because that's what I do, right, 157 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 3: So that's what I'm aiming for But in the meantime, 158 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: I'm having someone who is going to make me feel 159 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 3: ashamed to not be working when it's supposed to be working. 160 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: And people do other kinds of duct tape. 161 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 3: They'll have a friend, they owe a friend will, they'll 162 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 3: pay a friend some money, and that money that that 163 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 3: friend's going to donate that money to a cause. 164 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: They hate if they don't get their stuff done right. 165 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of ways you can kind of, 166 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 3: you know, duck take the boat in the meantime, and 167 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 3: that's that's mostly what I'm doing now. But I'm my 168 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 3: goal in life is to not need the duct tape 169 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 3: anymore working on it. 170 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: Let's talk about how do we fix the boat so 171 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: you don't need the duck type. What are some of 172 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: the strategies that you're working on there to get to 173 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: that utopian work life. 174 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, if you read on you know, books 175 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: on habits, you know there's real it's some you know, 176 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 3: this is not some mystery thing. Your brain is a 177 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 3: machine that has automated program that's running at all times, 178 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 3: and that's kind of like sometimes have to go, I 179 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 3: will It'll be I'll woken up, come out out into 180 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 3: the kitchen, and I'll say. 181 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 2: Did I brush my teeth? And I literally don't know. 182 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: I have to go and check out. 183 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: The toothbrushes wet because brushing my teeth in the morning 184 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 3: is so automated that my conscious brain doesn't even have 185 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 3: any knowledge whether it happened, just unconsciously, I was thinking 186 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 3: about something and I did it, and you know you 187 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 3: usually answers, yes, oh yeah, I did, but I don't 188 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 3: even remember because it was so it's so unconscious. Right, 189 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 3: So that can be good, or that can work in 190 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 3: our favor or against us. Right, if we have good habits, 191 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 3: that's incredible. Like for example, like I. 192 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: Never have to never procrastinate in brushing my teeth. I 193 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 2: never miss a debt. It's not hard. 194 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 3: I don't put any willpower into it because the automated 195 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 3: program hasn't come. And so when we have good habits 196 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 3: in general, our brain doesn't put it much resistance. We 197 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 3: just do it. It's just not even a question mark. 198 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 3: You know, of course we're going to do it, and 199 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: just do it and it's over and you don't think 200 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 3: about it. It's it's when you don't have the habit, 201 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 3: you have to put in willpower. Now, especially when usually 202 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 3: when you don't have the habit, it's because you have 203 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 3: a bad habit. For a procrastinator, that habit would be 204 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 3: you sit down in the computer to get to your work, 205 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 3: and as soon as you look at the work and 206 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 3: it's this is icky, without even thinking about it, your 207 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 3: hand will just keyboard shortcut over to the chrome window 208 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 3: or to your texts, and you'll start doing something else 209 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 3: without even thinking about it, or you know, like so 210 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 3: you'll just be in a habit of procrastinating at the 211 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 3: beginning of your work block, which then might you know, 212 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 3: when you start procrastinating, it becomes even harder. 213 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 2: The longer you go, the harder it is. See it 214 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: out of that and get get to work. 215 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 3: So so I would say that, like, that's what you're 216 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: trying to do, is you're trying to have as many 217 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: of the automated programs in your head working in line 218 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: with your long term. 219 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: Goals as possible. 220 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 3: So I think that what if you can get this 221 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 3: is part of what I'm trying to do with Alicia, 222 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 3: is just train my brain to like think, I wake 223 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: up and procrastination and like isn't happening right now? 224 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 2: Like fun is not it's not what's on the menu. 225 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 2: It's not even an option. 226 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: Like I'm just like, obviously I wake up and I'm like, 227 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:07,599 Speaker 3: it sucks. 228 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 2: But I'm in work mode. 229 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 3: And then suddenly I'm free in the afternoon and get 230 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 3: my because right, because you know, before I got into 231 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 3: this routine, it would be the opposite. 232 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 2: I wake up and I love waking up. Ah, there's 233 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: my phone and all the things to look at. 234 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 3: On my phone, and then like the way to make 235 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 3: coffee and then maybe take a walk, maybe I'll call 236 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 3: a friend, Like it would it would seem like oh. 237 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: So much, And it's like no, no, no, I want to. 238 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 3: Train my brain to think this is that's later. None 239 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 3: of that stuff happens now. This is this is serious time. 240 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 3: So I think, yes, you want to And when you 241 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 3: build those habits, you don't need the willpower anymore, right, 242 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 3: and so it becomes a lot easier. So it seems like, oh, 243 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 3: this is impossible to maintain these you know, this kind 244 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 3: of good schedule at first. If you've done it for 245 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 3: a month straight, you will find often that it's kind 246 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 3: of just happening. 247 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: Now. It's not as hard as it used to be. 248 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: Now to go one notch a deeper. 249 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 3: Here's like the to me, like the true like long 250 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 3: term underlying strategy underlying all of this is you have 251 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 3: to change your identity. I'm a procrastinator to a non procrastinator. 252 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 3: You have to change your storyline. You have to convince 253 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 3: yourself that you are someone who doesn't fuck around during 254 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 3: your work block. 255 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: I'm the kind of person who just does this. 256 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 3: And I know that not because I think I am, 257 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 3: because I know I am, because I just look at 258 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 3: the last ten weeks, look at the last year. I've 259 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 3: just just just what I did. Right now, I don't 260 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 3: have to convince myself I'm someone who brushes my teeth 261 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 3: every morning, because I actually am, and I have full confidence, 262 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 3: self confidence that I'm going to do it again tomorrow, 263 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 3: and I'm going to When it comes to will I 264 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 3: procrastinate tomorrow? 265 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 2: Will I will? 266 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: I will? 267 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 3: I work in my work zone right the way I 268 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 3: want to. It's less of a I don't feel ass 269 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 3: confident in it now. I view it as like there's 270 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 3: kind of this awareness in your head that's watching I 271 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 3: call it a spectator, and it's watching everything that happens 272 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: and a picture. That spectator is betting on whether you 273 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 3: know I always think of the you know, the procrastinator's 274 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 3: mind as a rational decision maker and an instant gratification monkey. 275 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: And that's what I talked about in the Ted talk. 276 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: And these two characters are battling for control of the 277 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 3: wheel and the procrastinators everyone has that. But the procrastinator's 278 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 3: problem is that the monkey's winning the wrong times. But 279 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 3: I don't think you're either of those. I think that 280 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 3: you truly are behind them. Your spectator is watching this, 281 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 3: and if that spectator thinks the monkey's going to win, 282 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 3: the monkey's probably going to win. That spectator believes no, no, no, 283 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 3: Like I think that the rational, the grown up in 284 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 3: the head is going to win out here, Probably the 285 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 3: grown up will because that spectator's belief is like self confidence, 286 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 3: and that feeds into what's going to happen. So this 287 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 3: is why I think self fulfilling prophecies are very real, 288 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 3: Like whatever the spectator believes is going to happen usually 289 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,239 Speaker 3: does because that's where your confidence lies. 290 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: And the spectator isn't. 291 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: Again, it's just rational, it's just looking at, well, what 292 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 3: happened before, Like if I procrastinated money through Thursday, the 293 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 3: spectator I wake up in the morning, and that spectators 294 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 3: on Friday thinking. 295 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: This is you know, deep down, no way, no way 296 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 2: am I. 297 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 3: Going to actually do what I'm supposed to do today? 298 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 3: Right there, When you have that thought, you're probably going 299 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 3: to mess it up. You're probably not going to do 300 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 3: what you're supposed to do that day because you don't 301 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 3: believe it yourself. 302 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 2: So how do you change that? 303 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: Right? How do? 304 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 3: That's this vicious cycle. That's why procrastinators get stuck for years. 305 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 3: The vicious cycle is because you believe you're going to fail, 306 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 3: so you do, which enforces. 307 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 2: The belief that you're going to fail, so you do again. Right, 308 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: you have to. David has to beat Goliath somehow. Right 309 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: you have to. 310 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 3: That's why I'm using, for example, my colleague Alicia as 311 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 3: in kind of an assistant in this. I'm trying to 312 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 3: create ways to help David beat Goliath. A few times 313 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 3: upset and then the spectators start to think, huh, well, 314 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 3: maybe actually here, maybe I've changed, Maybe this is a 315 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 3: different person now, Maybe I am not the procrastinator I 316 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 3: used to be. That's the kind of thinking that can 317 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 3: lead to genuine like I really don't do it anymore. 318 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 2: I just stop doing it. One day. 319 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of jumble thoughts because I'm like, 320 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 3: I think about this all the time, obviously, but I 321 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 3: think it's like things like, you know, you can talk 322 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 3: about habits and stuff all day, but deep down, it's 323 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 3: like you have to just do it enough you start 324 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: to believe that I am someone who has changed, and 325 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 3: then you actually will be someone who has changed. 326 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: I'm intrigued that you go straight to habits as opposed 327 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: to purpose when we talk about procrastination. I remember a 328 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: while ago when I had Adam Grant on the show 329 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: and he talked about how he will reward himself after 330 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: doing a chunk of deep focused work with checking social media, 331 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: and then I asked him, well, what brings you back 332 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: to your work, Like how do you not get lost 333 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: in that social media spiral? And he says, well, I 334 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: want to work. I'm really clear on why I work, 335 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: and I love it and I feel that way about 336 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: my work too. But I procrastinate a lot, and I'm 337 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: curious what role does loving what you do. I mean, 338 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: you write and draw for a living that is most 339 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: people in many people's dream job, and you get to 340 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: do it, yet you're still procrastinating. So where does purpose 341 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: and loving what you do fit in? 342 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: My work has a ton of purpose to me, right, 343 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: I feel like you do. 344 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 3: I feel very lucky to get to do what I do, 345 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 3: and I feel like it matters. And so I do 346 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 3: feel that way, right, and like you that that's not enough, 347 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 3: because here's the thing. The work I had, the work 348 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 3: I do has a lot of long term meaning, right, 349 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 3: it has macro meaning. Finishing a blog post and putting 350 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 3: it out feels amazing. Right, It's this reward you get. 351 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 2: But that's not so. The instant gratification. 352 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 3: Monkey in your head can't think long term, can't see 353 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 3: the big picture. 354 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: So the rational decision. 355 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 3: Maker is this is this prefrontal cortex part of our 356 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: brain that can see the big picture and plan ahead. 357 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 3: It's this amazing thing that separates humans from so many 358 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 3: other animals. The instant gratification monkey is much more of 359 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 3: an ancient part of your brain that is shared with 360 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 3: a lot of animals that wants to that is not 361 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 3: in the world it evolved into. It's like a software 362 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: program that evolved to live in a world that we 363 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 3: don't live in anymore. So this idea of writing, working 364 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 3: on writing that sometime fourteen months from that is going 365 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 3: to be published as a book. That part of my 366 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 3: brain just like, doesn't it can't get excited about now 367 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 3: a tweet. On the other hand, I tweet a ton 368 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: because the tweet is instant gratification. 369 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: So and when I tweet, I try to write meaningful 370 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 2: stuff too. Their purpose exists there too. 371 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 3: And it's much easier to do and not recrest state 372 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 3: because you get immediate feedback and mediate rewards. The rational 373 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 3: decision maker knows about how much purpose and meaning there is, 374 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 3: but the instant gratification monkey isn't that meaning to me? 375 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 3: Usually it comes. I don't like the doing the actual 376 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 3: work very much. I love putting the work out there. 377 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 3: I love when I hear that the work resonates with 378 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 3: other people, right. I love when the work connects my 379 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 3: brain to other brains. That doesn't happen while I'm working there. 380 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 3: That's just me alone, And so then the reward's not 381 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 3: there yet. The reward's all coming later. And so the 382 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 3: purpose I can know it. You know rationally in my 383 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 3: head that there's purpose, but I don't feel it in 384 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 3: that primal part. And that's the reason that I will 385 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 3: go on the internet and start dicking around as a 386 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 3: five minute break and now it's four hours later. 387 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 2: Because it becomes this the instant gratification. 388 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 3: Monkey just wants to resist something that you have to 389 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 3: actually work hard on that's not perfectible. You know, I 390 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 3: once was wondering, I've spent so much time crushing these 391 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 3: hard crossword puzzles, you know, New York Times Saturdays and Fridays, 392 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, why don't I procrastinate on that? 393 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: Right? 394 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 2: Why is that somehow fun? 395 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 3: It's hard, it's a challenge, right versus then working on 396 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 3: this Microsoft word doc when I'm trying to figure out 397 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 3: how to outline this next section? 398 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 2: Isn't that also a puzzle? And I think the answer 399 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 2: is that it's not perfectible. 400 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 3: You know, there's some there's some kind of thing, primal 401 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 3: thing that the crossroad puzzle taps into that the that 402 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 3: you know, working on long term, more abstract stuff just 403 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 3: doesn't that, you know, it doesn't. 404 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 405 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: We will be back with Tim soon where we talk 406 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: about his process for visualizing ideas. And if you have 407 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 1: read any of Tim's incredibly popular blog posts, you will 408 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: know how amazingly talented Tim is at visualizing ideas to 409 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: make them stick. If you're looking for more tips to 410 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: improve the way that you work. I write a short 411 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered 412 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: that helped me work better, ranging from software and gadgets 413 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: that I'm loving three to interesting research findings. You can 414 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: sign up for that at Howiwork dot code. That's how 415 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: I Work dot co. I want to dig into the 416 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: three hour workday which you described where you're sharing your 417 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: screen with Elisha and I love the sound of that strategy. 418 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: What are you doing with the other five hours? Like, 419 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: are you making that more black and white? Because you 420 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: were saying the problem is that it's gray and it's 421 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: this dark playground. So what do you do with that 422 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: other five hours of the workday. 423 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, there's just always a lot of 424 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: stuff to do. 425 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 3: When I say deep focus, I mean it's like to 426 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 3: deep focus on the thing that's most important, right, and 427 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 3: sometimes that's. 428 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 2: Something that's not urgent. You know you've heard of the 429 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: Eisenhower matrix. 430 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, So it's arranging everything by how urgent it 431 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 3: is and how important it is. You make a square, right, 432 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 3: so important is the top, and then it gets less 433 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 3: important as you go down and it gets more urgent 434 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 3: as you go. 435 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: To the left. 436 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 3: The point is that a lot of times we spend 437 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 3: a ton of our time gets sucked up doing the 438 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: stuff that's urgent but not important. So that's emails, that's 439 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 3: meetings often you know, sometimes there you know, it's it's errands, 440 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 3: it's paying bills, it's taking care of your dogs or 441 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 3: your kids. Again, it's not that this stuff isn't important, 442 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 3: but it's stuff that has to happen urgently. And and 443 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 3: the definition of important here is does it contribute to 444 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 3: your long term goals, values or mission. And usually we 445 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 3: spend a lot of this time doing this urgent stuff. 446 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 3: It doesn't actually contribute to. 447 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 2: Our long term goals, values and mission. Now, ideally, of. 448 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 3: Course, the important stuff would also be urgent, right, so 449 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 3: then you're forced. 450 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 2: To do the importance. But for most of us, the really. 451 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 3: Important long term work we need we want to work on, 452 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 3: you know, and you know, whether it's improving as a 453 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 3: person or getting better at you know, building a new skill, 454 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 3: or working on a book that you've always wanted to write, 455 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 3: or trying to get good at the guitar because you. 456 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: Want to put out an album. 457 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 3: And that really we deeply would affect our happiness if 458 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 3: we could just do it. Those things usually don't have 459 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 3: deadlines on, right. Those things often are very important, but 460 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 3: they're not urgent. You know. 461 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 2: That can also extend outside. 462 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 3: Work, seeing your family enough, you know, you know, spending 463 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 3: quality time with your your your family, or going to 464 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 3: the gym, whatever that's that's this this this this important 465 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 3: but not urgent file of stuff. 466 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 2: And that's kind of the thing I think a lot 467 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 2: of us need to be spending that. 468 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 3: Three hours, you know, just like stuff where it's like 469 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 3: this is a sacred space for whatever. 470 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 2: The most important project. 471 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 3: Is the stuff that's really icky to stuff that's really 472 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 3: hard to do, the stuff that like matters that in 473 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 3: thirty years I'll look back and like this will be 474 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 3: part of something that mattered and I'll still know that then. 475 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 3: Right now, if you can do that for three hours, 476 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: five days a week, that's huge, right, that's a ton 477 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 3: of time. Sixty hours a month. I mean, you will 478 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 3: make incredible progress. You're a whole book just with those 479 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 3: three hours, five days a week in one year, right, 480 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 3: even less for some people. 481 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: Outside of that. 482 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 3: Is all the other stuff, right, there's so there's a 483 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 3: huge everyone if you just live in the civilization today. 484 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 3: We have a huge amount of the emails, there's texts, 485 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 3: there's there's bills and errands and things that need to 486 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 3: get done. There's just to do list, right, and a 487 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 3: lot of stuff at work. You know, sometimes it's just you're. 488 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: Trying to you want to reorganize your all your folders. 489 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 3: You want to like, you know, you know, meet with 490 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 3: the developer who's going over your new website. 491 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 2: You know, you want to have a meeting. All that stuff. 492 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: It's it matters, and it's work you have to do. 493 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 3: But but but the three hours is reserved for something 494 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 3: that if you could just make progress on it, your 495 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 3: whole life would be totally changed. And if you don't 496 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 3: make progress on it, like you'll really build up long 497 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 3: term regrets. It's this really important project. So now I'm 498 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 3: saying this as if like every day I do my 499 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 3: three hours of like you know, work for me. That 500 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 3: for me, the really important thing right now is finishing 501 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 3: this book I've been working on and getting you know, 502 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 3: writing right, writing and putting out making content, creating you know, 503 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 3: the content that I want to put it. 504 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 2: That's the most important stuff. 505 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 3: This is a plan, This is a work in progress, right, 506 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 3: I often hear some mistakes on me. 507 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: Sometimes I will we'll do it for a while. 508 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 3: And then I'll have a couple of early meetings so 509 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 3: that we won't do it for a couple of days, 510 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 3: and then I find like a week later, oh and 511 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 3: then leash. She's like, you want to get back on 512 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 3: the nine thirty three, and I'm like, yes, but it's 513 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 3: easy to kind of just let it slip. Secondly, it's 514 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 3: easy too if I have made a good a lot 515 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 3: of progress to power through and keep working, which is 516 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: not isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I find that 517 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 3: it's very hard to have a streak of good days 518 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 3: if I have one like great, great day, you know, 519 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 3: as weird as that sounds. If I like power through 520 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 3: and I work like six hours, it's really hard to 521 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 3: come back the next day and just do those three. 522 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 3: So I'm trying to stop after three, but I often 523 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 3: find myself not stopping. But yeah, I think I think 524 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: the way to think about it. 525 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 2: Is what this is for me. 526 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: At least three hours, five days a week is sacred 527 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 3: time that no one else And this means when I 528 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 3: say deep focus, I mean you're not on your phone, 529 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 3: maybe you take. 530 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 2: A five minute break. 531 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 3: You know, each hour something that's planned, but like you're 532 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 3: not cooking food, you're not taking phone calls, you're not 533 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 3: checking your email or anything like you are. 534 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: Like it's like, think of it as a final exam. 535 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 3: You know, you know the zone you're in when you're 536 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 3: you go and do a final exam right in college 537 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: or whatever, and you're there and you're like, you know, 538 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 3: it's like hardcore, and then you finish, you're like, ah, done, 539 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 3: times up right, that's the goal. 540 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 2: That's where you want to get where you're in. 541 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 3: Like final example of the three hours, which means you 542 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 3: all your your also schedule, your. 543 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: Calendar takes this into account. 544 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 3: Like that is you might as well be you're just 545 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 3: off the map for those hours and you plan everything 546 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 3: around that. And then when that's done, you could say okay, 547 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 3: and now you can say the rest of the day, 548 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 3: you know you can work on the rest of your life. 549 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: Maybe you fail at that and you just procrastinate. It 550 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: doesn't matter. The days already a success you already want. 551 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 3: And likewise, the week, even if the week you didn't 552 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 3: get all the other little things done, you got behind 553 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 3: your to do list for what really matters the week 554 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 3: is a success. 555 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: I want to talk about visualizing ideas. I feel like 556 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: it's something that you're incredibly well known for, and I 557 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: feel like some of the ways that you've visualized ideas 558 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 1: and your blog posts, it just I feel like they're 559 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: images that are etched in my head. Like I think 560 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: about the tail end blog post that you wrote quite 561 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: some time ago, and I feel like I will, you know, 562 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: semi regularly think about the way you illustrated the course 563 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: of a life and how much time we have. What's 564 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: your approach to firstly deciding what concepts you're you're writing 565 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 1: about deserve worthy of an illustration. 566 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's always a question mark is when to 567 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 3: use writing versus visuals to get a point across. There's 568 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 3: there's certain times for both, Right, there's obviously writing needs 569 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 3: to take the meat of the stuff for me at least, 570 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 3: and there's something that writing can do that visuals can't, right, 571 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 3: Like writing. 572 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 2: You can. 573 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 3: There's just you know, language has has a lot of 574 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 3: ability to get certain things across that that. 575 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 2: That you can't do in a visual. 576 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 3: But if there's certain times when like nothing is like 577 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 3: a good visual like so for example, with this how 578 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 3: much time you have in your life. I could describe it, 579 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 3: that can say, here the number of weeks you have. 580 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 3: Here are the number of months you have. But big 581 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 3: numbers were not very you know, in writing, big numbers 582 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,239 Speaker 3: don't really have as much impact if you can, you know, 583 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 3: so like I can say you have forty five. 584 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,479 Speaker 2: Hundred weeks in the life. 585 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 3: Okay, that kind of sounds like an endless number and 586 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 3: not endless, But that's like forty five hundred okay whatever, 587 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't sound that different than if I 588 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 3: said forty five thousand. 589 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 2: It's just kind of like some big number, right. 590 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 3: But if I suddenly illustrate it and boom, you're looking 591 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: at them all, there they are. 592 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 2: That's it. And especially I'll test it out sometimes. 593 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 3: I I would do something like that and look and say, 594 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,239 Speaker 3: that looks like that looks like what the number sounds like. 595 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 3: So what's the point of putting the visual in there. 596 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 3: The wording is going to get the same is going 597 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 3: to have the same effect. But when I've made that 598 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 3: particular one, I looked at it and I said, wow, 599 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 3: that is so much smaller than the number sounds. So 600 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: that's a perfect time to do it right. So I 601 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 3: think sometimes there can be something that's funny, a like 602 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 3: a comic can can be funnier than wording a lot 603 00:25:59,160 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 3: of the time. 604 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: Sometimes it can be more sticky and more memorable. 605 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 3: So like I can talk about the instant gratification monkey 606 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,479 Speaker 3: and the panic monster and the rational decision maker all 607 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 3: I want, right, But if it's just these long words, 608 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 3: these terms versus a visual boom, it can stick. So 609 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,479 Speaker 3: a visual can help it be, can help something come 610 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 3: through that that it's not going through, and writing it 611 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 3: can help make things clearer, and it can help it 612 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 3: be more memorable. So for me, I'm always there's no 613 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 3: formula as I'm writing. I'm always thinking about you know, 614 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 3: I don't want to do a visual just for the 615 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 3: sake of doing it. Would would a visual help here? 616 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 3: What a visual will help a lot here? Would it 617 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 3: make things better? Can this whole paragraph, this whole section 618 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 3: just be is one good visual. 619 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 2: Can be better? I've also made mistakes before. 620 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 3: I've done a visual that is kind of convoluted or 621 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 3: doesn't accomplish that much, And I often and I will 622 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 3: later come back and just look at it and think 623 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 3: like this didn't pop, Like actually I would have just 624 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 3: described this concept. I tried to get too cute here 625 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 3: with like a visual that has like four dimensions and 626 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 3: like has all this stuff, and I'm looking and I'm like, 627 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 3: this just didn't work. And so it's I'm always trying 628 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 3: to get better at and like, you know. 629 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, how does one get better at visualizing things? 630 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 2: Well, honestly, like the I have am again, I'm lucky. 631 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 3: The way my work works is that I try something, 632 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 3: then I publish it, and then if it's not good, 633 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 3: three hundred people are going to tell me how bad 634 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 3: it is, and likewise, and likewise if something's if something's good, likewise, 635 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 3: I can tell which drawings really clicked because I see 636 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: them on Twitter. You know, people repost them, people want them, 637 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 3: you know, people talk about them years later. 638 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 2: That's the best way I know. 639 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 3: If if if a year later, you know, or multiple 640 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 3: years later, I'm still seeing people talk about the visual, 641 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 3: I know that it worked right, it was it did 642 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 3: what I wanted to do. 643 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: And then other visuals there's visuals like. 644 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 3: There's so that the tail end was like kind of 645 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 3: the second version of a post I did. 646 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 2: The first one was called Life. 647 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 3: And Weeks, which was just the week's thing before I 648 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 3: started talking about time with people and I did this 649 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 3: you know, fifty two week by ninety year grid right, 650 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 3: and that I know has clicked because people have bought 651 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 3: posters that I've made with it, people have bought t 652 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 3: shirts and if people talking about it. Meanwhile, late in 653 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 3: that same post, there's this other visual where I have 654 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 3: this like really convoluted VENN diagram, and I have never 655 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 3: once heard anyone mention it again or talk about it 656 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 3: or praise it or tweet it. 657 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 2: I've never I looked at it. 658 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 3: I barely remembered it was that there you go, so 659 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 3: right there, I'm getting feedback. I'm learning what's good and 660 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 3: what's working what's not in real time by feedback. 661 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 2: So that's huge. 662 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 3: Now, some people obviously don't have that particular thing. Maybe 663 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 3: they write, but they don't have comments on their blog 664 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 3: or whatever. You know, there's a lot of reasons that 665 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 3: you wouldn't be able to get feedback, and I think 666 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 3: it's just experience. 667 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: I think like it's doing a lot of visuals. 668 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 3: Each one you often have an idea of what it 669 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 3: should be, and then as you do it, it evolves 670 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 3: into something different and you just learn so much about 671 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 3: your own skills by doing that, you just you know, 672 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 3: sometimes you stumble upon as you're making a visual, upon 673 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 3: like a new idea that you could use with the 674 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 3: visual and then you can repeat that in the future. 675 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 3: But you never would have learned that just by like 676 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 3: you know, so I think just a lot of repetition, 677 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 3: and ideally repetition with feedback, yeah, helps them. 678 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: The same thing goes for writing, of course. 679 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 3: I mean, the best way to be good at writing 680 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 3: is to write a lot, especially if you can write 681 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 3: a lot and get feedback as you go. 682 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: I mean, but. 683 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 3: Even just writing a lot in a journal alone, like 684 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 3: it's it's just it'll it'll improve like anything shooting a 685 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 3: basketball a million times, like you'll get better at shooting 686 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 3: the basketball. 687 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: Tim I wish, I wish I had like all day 688 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: with you because it's it's just been so absolutely inspiring 689 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: connecting with you after having followed your blog for so 690 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: many years. So thank you so much for your time. 691 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: For listeners that want to consume more, Tim Urban and 692 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: wait for why, what is the best way for people 693 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: to do that? 694 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 3: Just my blog WPY dot com and the email list 695 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 3: is where you like can go to know that a 696 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 3: new post is up, because otherwise I post very sporadically 697 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 3: and it's really annoying to just check the site for 698 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 3: a new post. So go to the site and you 699 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 3: can sign up for the email list there. And then also, 700 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 3: I wait, but why on Twitter? I tweet a lot 701 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 3: because that's what I do when I'm procrastinating. 702 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 2: Amazing. Thank you so much, Tim, But. 703 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: Thank you for spending this last hour with me. 704 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 2: Yes, thank you so much, Arieta. 705 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: One of the highlights of this chat with Tim for 706 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: me was his accountability strategy with his assistant, Alisha. So 707 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: I recently hired a new assistant who has just started 708 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: working with me, and I'm very keen to. 709 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 2: Give this strategy a go. 710 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: I know that I personally find it so helpful to 711 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: know that I'm accountable to someone other than myself when 712 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: I am trying to plow through hard, deep work. How 713 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: I Work is produced by Inventingum with production support from 714 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, 715 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: and thank you to Matt Nimba, who does the audio 716 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: mix for every episode and makes everything sound so much 717 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: better than it would have otherwise. 718 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: See you next time.