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Speaker 1: Now we know that it was pretty extraordinary, like I've

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Speaker 1: said in Parliament yesterday, for a lot of reasons. But

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Speaker 1: the Chief Minister, Michael Gunner, described a so called political

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Speaker 1: campaign by the Northern Territory Police Association as malicious during

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Speaker 1: question time. As we've previously heard on the show, the

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Speaker 1: association has continually urged the Chief Minister to withdraw his

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Speaker 1: now infamous line. Consequences will flow after a jury found

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Speaker 1: Constable Zach Rolf not guilty of murder. Mister gonna claim

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Speaker 1: the opposition and the Northern Territory Police Association was seeking

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Speaker 1: to use the line to stoke division in the community.

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Speaker 1: Now joining me on the line is the Police Association

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Speaker 1: President Paul McHugh.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to Paul.

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Speaker 3: Morning Katy.

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Speaker 2: Here are you going very well? Paul?

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Speaker 1: Are you stoking an already volatile situation.

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Speaker 3: It's just complained nonsense, really, Katie. I mean, obviously you

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Speaker 3: know it's pretty sad that we have to sit here

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Speaker 3: and listen again to the Chief Minister try and divert

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Speaker 3: a form of responsibility from the words he said to

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Speaker 3: an organization that represents the swarm police officers who are

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Speaker 3: out there every day working hard and obviously they remained

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Speaker 3: upset from day one about those comments, whether obviously you know,

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Speaker 3: what he meant to say didn't come out right at

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Speaker 3: the time, and obviously, you know, it certainly upset many

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Speaker 3: of our officers at the time and continues to do

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Speaker 3: so today. And of course we reflect, simply reflect the

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Speaker 3: feeling of those officers about what we was said at

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Speaker 3: the time, and to simply to stand there and say, well,

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Speaker 3: we're creating this divide is complete and other nonsense and

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Speaker 3: we totally reject that.

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Speaker 1: Well, what percentage of the Northern Territory Police Force does

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Speaker 1: the Police Association represent?

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Speaker 3: Nearly ninety nine percent, Katie, So just about every single

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Speaker 3: person that to sworn officer, police, auxiliary, abiginal community police

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Speaker 3: officer are members of the Northern Territory Police Association. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, when we've the last two years have been very,

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Speaker 3: very difficult for a lot of people, and obviously our

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Speaker 3: officers have had to wait over two and a half

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Speaker 3: year or nearly two and a half years for the

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Speaker 3: outcome of the criminal trial. And through that period we

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Speaker 3: respected that process and everyone should have done that, and

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Speaker 3: obviously that large portion of the membership were very very

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Speaker 3: vocal at the time of the comments being made and

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Speaker 3: to nearly two and a half years later, that responsibility

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Speaker 3: for those words still lies with the Chief Minister, and

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Speaker 3: rightly so, and he can't reflect from that. It's his words,

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Speaker 3: not ours, and we're simply reflecting the views of our members.

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Speaker 1: Paul, what are your members saying to you since since

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Speaker 1: the Roles trial concluded? What are they saying and what

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Speaker 1: are they still saying to you about the comments which

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Speaker 1: were made by the Chief Minister.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, obviously at the time, pretty much the same

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Speaker 3: as all at the time. I mean, obviously they were

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Speaker 3: very concerned, you know, with those words. We know the

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Speaker 3: Chief Minister explained himself eventually around the fact he was

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Speaker 3: talking about a crale investigation, but they were very concerned.

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Speaker 3: He used the words consequences of the word particularly, and

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Speaker 3: obviously that inferred to them and they perceived it as

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Speaker 3: he thinks there's been some wrongdoing and the community will, well,

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Speaker 3: we'll expect some sort of outcome from that wrongdoing. And obviously,

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Speaker 3: whether that was right or wrong, or however it was

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Speaker 3: perceived at the time, our members were extremely upset. Since

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Speaker 3: the trials concluded, there's still a lot of questions that

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Speaker 3: can't be answered. We've obviously got a coronal investigation to

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Speaker 3: come that's been listed for September for ten weeks. We

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Speaker 3: look forward to that process taking its course where hopefully

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Speaker 3: some more questions can be answered. But they're still very

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Speaker 3: frustrated because there's still a lot of unknown to this day.

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Speaker 1: So Paul, would you say right now there are still

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Speaker 1: members of the police force that are raising those comments

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Speaker 1: with you and speaking to you as the president of

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Speaker 1: the Police Association about those comments made by the Chief Minister,

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Speaker 1: or is this something I guess what I'm getting to is,

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Speaker 1: you know is the Chief Minister is essentially saying that

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Speaker 1: you're stoking the fire. But are you raising this because

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Speaker 1: members of the Association of raising it with you.

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Speaker 3: I was in our Springs last Friday. They raised it

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Speaker 3: with me there. They raised it every day with me

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Speaker 3: on whether it's through email or phone. I've even had

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Speaker 3: police from around the country continue to raise their concerns

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Speaker 3: about those comments. So I'm not stoking any fires. I'm

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Speaker 3: not trying to inflame anything. I'm creating any division. This

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Speaker 3: is about making sure people who say and do certain

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Speaker 3: things are responsible for those actions. It doesn't matter if

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Speaker 3: it was now or two years down the track, and

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Speaker 3: that's all our job is is to reflect those views

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Speaker 3: of the membership.

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Speaker 1: Paul, are you pretty frustrated at this point in time

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Speaker 1: about the way that this is all sort of continuing

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Speaker 1: to roll out.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, because look at the heart of this, we've got

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Speaker 3: a police force that's really it struggled in terms of

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Speaker 3: morale over the last couple of years. We're losing a

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Speaker 3: lot of members over that last couple of years. I

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Speaker 3: feel a bit down at times. And obviously resourcing can

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Speaker 3: he needs to be a problem. So they just want

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Speaker 3: to see they want to see some answers, but they

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Speaker 3: also want to see that level of support from their

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Speaker 3: chief minister, from the government around a whole bunch of issues.

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Speaker 3: You know, we've got a whole lot of things going

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Speaker 3: on in the Northern Territory around youth crime and crime

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Speaker 3: and alcohol related harm, and these are things we need

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Speaker 3: to be focusing on. And yet he wants to throw

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Speaker 3: the police Union, which represents nearly every police officer out there,

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Speaker 3: under the bus over a comment he made over two

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Speaker 3: years ago. And I think it's just really poor schoolyard

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Speaker 3: tactics and we're just not not entertaining that in any way.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, it's just to completely reject those inferences he's making.

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Speaker 1: The Chief Minister claims that, you know, some of this

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Speaker 1: questioning isn't just an attack on him, but an attack

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Speaker 1: on the police. Is this.

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Speaker 3: I have no idea what thinking comes to that conclusion.

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Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, if he thinks us making comments about

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Speaker 3: him is attacking our own men members, I mean, heaven,

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Speaker 3: please explain that. I mean, I have no idea where

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Speaker 3: he's coming from with that one. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: Do you support an inquiry?

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Speaker 1: I know that the opposition is obviously calling quite strongly

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Speaker 1: for an inquiry to happen.

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Speaker 2: Do you support that? Does the Association support that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, obviously, as I said, there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: questions still to be answered. Obviously, as I said, there's

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Speaker 3: a coronal investigation to take place that won't take place

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Speaker 3: until September. Now, we don't know really what that will

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Speaker 3: look at at this stage, and until we know that,

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Speaker 3: we don't know when you know, what's going to come

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Speaker 3: as a result of that particular coronials. So we're keen

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Speaker 3: to see the terms of reference around that and what

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Speaker 3: the scope is for that particular matter, but certainly there

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Speaker 3: needs to be a review into what we called for

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Speaker 3: it on the Monday after the trial, we said there

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Speaker 3: needs to be some interrogation around some of the actions

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Speaker 3: shortly after the shooting, and we maintain that stance today.

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Speaker 3: And obviously this has been a really tough time for

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Speaker 3: a lot of police out there. Katie. We're talking not

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Speaker 3: just comfortable role with his family, but the investigators, the witnesses,

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Speaker 3: the whole police forces really has really been under the

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Speaker 3: pump over the last two years because of this, Paul.

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Speaker 1: I know that there was recently a survey which was

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Speaker 1: conducted by the Northern Territory government, so not a police

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Speaker 1: association survey, that really looked into the morale I think

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Speaker 1: it'd say of the police force. You and I have

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Speaker 1: spoken about police morale for some time, but from your perspective,

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Speaker 1: what did this survey show.

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Speaker 3: Well, I had some fairly poor results. I mean, obviously

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Speaker 3: there was quite a bit of feedback in that survey, which,

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Speaker 3: as you pointed out, is a police fire an emergency

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Speaker 3: service specific survey, so it was something run by the

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Speaker 3: government and I know they had a lot of feedback

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Speaker 3: on that. We haven't really seen any updates in terms

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Speaker 3: of the results and what that means and what actions

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Speaker 3: might be put in place. But I'm acutely aware the

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Speaker 3: Commissioner would be looking at that because there was some

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Speaker 3: pretty concerning results out of that survey around morale and

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Speaker 3: resourcing and that sort of thing, and that's reflected and

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Speaker 3: what our survey came up with last year as well.

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Speaker 1: Paul, how is the morale of the force again, I

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Speaker 1: know I asked you about this last week, but how

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Speaker 1: is the morale of the force right now?

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Speaker 3: It's difficult, it's challenging. Obviously, we've got a lot of

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Speaker 3: people that continue to leave the police force at the moment,

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Speaker 3: so we're losing that experience and I know the Commission's

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Speaker 3: looking at alternatives around that. But what really impacts morale, Cadie,

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Speaker 3: is your resourcing. And you know, we're still today getting

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Speaker 3: a lot of phone calls from members saying, you know,

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Speaker 3: we've only got one van on the road again and

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Speaker 3: they're just job to job to job to job and

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Speaker 3: it's taking its toll and that really is affecting morale.

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Speaker 3: So let's get that right and maybe we can turn

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Speaker 3: things around pretty quickly. But I know that's something we've

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Speaker 3: focused on and talking to the Commissioner about Paul.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about those numbers of how many police

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Speaker 1: are leaving the force at the moment, where are we

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Speaker 1: sitting per month?

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Speaker 3: I think you know, we're still sitting approximately between ten

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Speaker 3: and fifteen a month at this stage, and I mean

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Speaker 3: that's just on average, but of course when we're looking

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Speaker 3: at it as a national average, we're probably still sitting

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Speaker 3: twice or three times a national average, which is probably

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Speaker 3: the biggest concern given you know other police forces, we

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Speaker 3: know the Federal Police, we know South Australia, we know Queensland.

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Speaker 3: They're all going to be recruiting very heavily this year

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Speaker 3: and possibly lateral type transfers where you can move over

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Speaker 3: at rank or holding your qualifications and that will really

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Speaker 3: impact the Northern Territory again this year as it has

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Speaker 3: over the last couple of years.

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Speaker 1: Well, I do want to ask you have you as

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Speaker 1: the association president, I know that you know there's obviously

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Speaker 1: this pretty pretty heightened discussion which is taking place not

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Speaker 1: between you and the Chief Minister, but sort of in the.

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Speaker 2: Media and on the proof freeze.

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Speaker 1: You're obviously not overly happy with the Chief Minister at

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Speaker 1: this point. In time, has the Police Minister given that

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Speaker 1: support to the police force.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, we still obviously maintain contact with the Police Minister,

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Speaker 3: so she holds the portfolio, and you know, we certainly

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Speaker 3: are planning another meeting in the very near future, so

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Speaker 3: that hasn't waned. We certainly know. I mean, we'll continually

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Speaker 3: raise our concerns through her office and rightly so as

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Speaker 3: the Minister, and she continues to provide us some assurances

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Speaker 3: around support for police. But of course, you know when

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Speaker 3: that support is excellent in terms of words, but we

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Speaker 3: need in actions to see that resourcing model looked at.

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Speaker 3: We need to make sure we've got enough police to

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Speaker 3: do what they're being asked to do. And let's not

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Speaker 3: forget the last couple of years, of course, has been

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Speaker 3: difficult with COVID and the responsibilities police have been given there.

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Speaker 3: So certainly we still have maintain that contact with the Minister,

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Speaker 3: and we've got a meeting coming up very soon.

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Speaker 1: Paul, I know it had been reported, and please correct

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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. It had been reported that you

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Speaker 1: had called for the Chief Minister to step aside if

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Speaker 1: he couldn't commit to helping heal divisions with the community.

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Speaker 2: And the Police Service. Do you maintain that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, obviously what we're what our point there is, Katie,

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Speaker 3: is simply we just want to the last two has

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Speaker 3: been very difficult, very very difficult, difficult for a lot

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Speaker 3: of people. It's time to start heading in the right direction,

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Speaker 3: and we want the Chief Minister to reach out and

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Speaker 3: make sure he's doing everything he can in his role

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Speaker 3: to make sure police have got what they need to

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Speaker 3: do their job and continue to do it in a

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Speaker 3: professional and well resourced capacity. If he's not willing to

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Speaker 3: reach out and make that make that contact, well then

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Speaker 3: maybe he should step aside and let someone else take

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Speaker 3: that opportunity. But you know, there's a lot of there's

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Speaker 3: a long way ahead, there's still a lot of water

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Speaker 3: to go under the bridge, and certainly we want to

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Speaker 3: make sure that our members are represented appropriately and we're

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Speaker 3: doing that for the best of our ability by raising

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Speaker 3: these concerns on their behalf.

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Speaker 1: Police Association President Paul McHugh, I really appreciate your.

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Speaker 2: Time this morning. Thanks so much for speaking with me.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Katie Chan, thank you