1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. This 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: episode is another my favorite tip episode. The titles probably 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: pretty self explanatory. It's about my favorite tip from each 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: of the interviews I conduct. I use this format because 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 1: sometimes I feel myself as a podcast listener that I 10 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: just want to get in, get the most amount of 11 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: value from an episode, and then get out. So my 12 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: guest today is doctor Elizabeth Dunn. Elizabeth is a professor 13 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: in the Department of Psychology at the University of British Columbia. 14 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: Her research looks at how time, money, and technology shape 15 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: human happiness. She's the co author of Happy Money, The 16 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: Science of Happier Spending with doctor Michael Norton, and her 17 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: research has been featured in hundreds of media outlets around 18 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: the world, including The New York Times, The Glow Mail, 19 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: The London Times, McLean's Time, and CNN. I connected with 20 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Elizabeth back a few months ago at TED twenty nineteen 21 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: in Vancouver recently, where she gave one of my favorite 22 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: talks of the week on how helping others makes us happier. 23 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: So in this extract that I've taken from my interview, 24 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: we talk about how she has applied a lot of 25 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: her own research to lead a happier life, and specifically 26 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: we talk about how she uses money to buy more time, Like, 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: I just love the research that you've done into this 28 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: around spending time. Spending money buying time rather than material 29 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: goods increases happiness. And this is something that I feel 30 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: like I often apply this in my own life, Like 31 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: one of my most happiest ways of spending money is 32 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: that a few months ago, I realized that I was 33 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: spending like at least a couple of hours cutting vegetables 34 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: on the weekend. So we'd go to the markets, we'd 35 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: get vegetables for the family, and I would then be 36 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: cutting them for hours and it was so boring. And 37 00:01:58,120 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: then I thought, why didn't I just put an ad 38 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: on a task which is kind of like task grab it. 39 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: And I've found someone, this most amazing person, Leah, who 40 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: comes over every Sunday and spends two hours cutting vegetables 41 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: and this brings me no end of happiness. And I'm wondering, 42 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: in your own life, how how have you applied this research? Binding. 43 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is definitely what researcher are sometimes called 44 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: research where I've definitely struggled with this, you know, fundamental 45 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: dilemma that I think so many of us face these days, 46 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: which is just there's so much more to do and 47 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: so much so many more things I want to do 48 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 2: than I have time to do. And so you know, 49 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: if we can kind of just accept the notion that like, hey, 50 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: you know, I could actually pay somebody to cut the 51 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 2: vegetables for me or do whatever it is that like 52 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: I need help with, you can free out so much 53 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 2: time for yourself. So you know, one way that I 54 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 2: use this in my own life is basically just to 55 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 2: win a fight with my husband. So you know, we 56 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: had debated. He is somebody who is a really good cleaner, 57 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 2: which I know, like I'm very lucky, I guess to 58 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: have married this great man who's also like fabulous at 59 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: like vacuuming and cleaning up. I am terrible at cleaning up, 60 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: Like I hate it. It takes me forever. Like my 61 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: husband just marvels at the amount of time it takes 62 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: me to like clean up our teeny tiny kitchen. So anyway, 63 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: I've always been in favor of paying somebody to come 64 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 2: in and help with the cleaning each week, and he 65 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: has always disagreed with me on that. And so, you know, 66 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: once we published eight studies in one of the leading 67 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: scientific journals demonstrating that people who use money to buy 68 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: time like that are happier than those who don't. You know, 69 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: I declared that I had won the fight, and he agreed, 70 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 2: and we have at this point, we have a wonderful 71 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: friend of the family who comes in every week and 72 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: cleans up for a few hours, such that like my 73 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: complete and confidence in this area doesn't impair the quality 74 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: of my marriage or mean that like I have to 75 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: devote my whole Saturday afternoon to trying to make our 76 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: house not be a complete disaster. So that's kind of 77 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 2: the biggest way. But I'm actually thinking ahead this fall. 78 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: I've had the great privilege of being on sabbatical during 79 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: the past year, which is like an amazing, amazing feature 80 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 2: of academia. So because of that, I've just gotten, you know, 81 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 2: in a way, sabbatical creates all of this free time. 82 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: But I just have a way of taking free time 83 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: and like massively filling it. So it turns out that like, 84 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: for example, if you give a TED talk, you will 85 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 2: get a lot of email and like often really like 86 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: interesting things from people all around the world. We want 87 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: to like chat with you and share step and it's great, 88 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: but you know, you start to wonder, like how am 89 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 2: I going to make time for all of this and 90 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 2: also go back to my normal job that I'm actually 91 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: paid to do where I teach students and everything. And 92 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: so what I've decided to do is this fall, I'm 93 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: going to hire somebody for two hours a day to 94 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 2: just come in and do all of this stuff I 95 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: feel like I don't have time to do that doesn't 96 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 2: have to be done by me. And I've actually been 97 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 2: taking great pleasure in like starting to think about that 98 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: list of things that I could just get off my 99 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: plate and not have hanging over me. 100 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: That sounds amazing. So what sorts of things is this 101 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: person gonna do well for me? 102 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: Actually, cutting vegetables is on there. My six year old, 103 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 2: like the only way to get him to eat vegetables 104 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 2: is to have cut up appealing vegetables out on the 105 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 2: table when he walks in the door hungry after school. 106 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: Otherwise it's not gonna happen. But like, and it's not 107 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: that hard, Like, you know, I have a PhD. Like 108 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: I graduated SUMA from Harvard, Like cutting vegetables shouldn't be 109 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: that hard for me, but like this is supposed is 110 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 2: a real challenge in my life. So yeah, that's gonna 111 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: that's gonna be one of the things I've also, you know, 112 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: just like all of the little things that end up 113 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 2: on my calendar of like you know, so drop off 114 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 2: old clothes at the thrist store, pick up dry cleaning, 115 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: you know, pick up bananas, all of these like little 116 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: small things that are not that big a deal that 117 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: create you know, this kind of time confetti where I 118 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: feel like I don't have the big chunks of time 119 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: that I want to work on things. And so, you know, 120 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: it just occurred to me of like, oh, I live 121 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 2: in a college town where there are always lots of 122 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: students who need small part time jobs, like a couple 123 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 2: hours in the late afternoon that's flexible, and so for 124 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: like thirty or forty dollars, I can get all of 125 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 2: that stuff done and free up the time that I 126 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 2: want to be able to, you know, really engage with students, 127 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: really dig into writing projects, maybe even respond to some 128 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 2: of those emails that I've been getting about the ted 129 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 2: talk and so yeah, that's kind of my plan for 130 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 2: the fall. 131 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: That's so cool. And and look, it's funny when when 132 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: I share my vegetable cutting stories, some I get mixed responses. 133 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: Some people like that is brilliant, and other people are like, well, 134 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: don't you feel guilty like you could be doing that yourself? 135 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: And how do you respond to those people that sort 136 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: of almost, I guess, feel guilty to buy time for themselves. 137 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the guilt is real, right, Like we 138 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: see in our studies that you know, just the thought 139 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: of paying for help with a dislike task does provoke 140 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 2: guilt in some people. And interestingly, what we see is 141 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: kind of the best predictor of whether people experience guilt 142 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: when they think about paying for help with a dislike 143 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: task is whether they spontaneously think of a specific other 144 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: person who would have to take that task on and 145 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: whether they see giving that person the task as a 146 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: burden as opposed to a benefit to the service provider. So, 147 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,119 Speaker 2: if you feel like, oh, gosh, by offloading this task, 148 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: I'm sticking somebody else with this terrible thing that I 149 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: hate doing. Then you know, it's not surprising at all 150 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: that that provokes guilt, and we do see that if 151 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: you experience that kind of guilt, it does kind of 152 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: undercut the happiness that you might otherwise experience from being 153 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: able to get rid of that task. So, you know, 154 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 2: I think one way to think about it is just 155 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: can you find a way to offload this task in 156 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: a way that would actually maybe be a benefit to 157 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 2: the person who you're hiring. So, you know, for me, 158 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 2: I think of it as, Okay, students need jobs that 159 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 2: are compatible with being able to study, right, So a 160 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: job that's actually flexible, that is kind of out a 161 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: little bit outside of typical class hours, you know, that 162 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: they can kind of do on their own and in 163 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 2: their own time, is actually going to be beneficial. And 164 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: so the way that I think about it, and obviously 165 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 2: making sure you're paying them fairly and just being nice 166 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: and polite and respectful and treating them like a person, 167 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 2: then you know, I think of it as actually providing 168 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 2: a benefit to the students as well as a massive 169 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:04,599 Speaker 2: benefit to me. 170 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: Hello, again. So this interview was recorded a while ago, 171 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: and I still have my vegetable cutter come over every 172 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: Sunday morning, and my goodness, I am so full of 173 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: joy looking at all the cut up vegetables that fill 174 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: my fridge after she leaves. So I hope this extract 175 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: has got you thinking about how you could buy more 176 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: time in your life and also not feel guilty about it. 177 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: So that's it for today. If you like this excerpt, 178 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 1: you might want to listen to my full chat with Elizabeth, 179 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: which I'll link to in the show notes. And if 180 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: you're enjoying how I work, I'll love it if you 181 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: could take five seconds to leave a review an Apple 182 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Leaving reviews actually 183 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: makes it easier for other people to find how I work, 184 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: and so thank you to all the wonderful people who 185 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: have left five star reviews and written some lovely words. 186 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: It truly does make my day, So thank you and 187 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: I'll see you next time.