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Speaker 1: We know that a review of secondary education in the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory is going to be conducted by Deloitte Access Economics.

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Speaker 1: It is expected to identify ways to improve student engagement

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Speaker 1: and outcomes, with the final report expected to be complete

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Speaker 1: in May next year. Joining us on the line to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit further about this is Michelle Air

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Speaker 1: is the Australian Education Union's Northern Territory Branch President. Good

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Speaker 1: morning to you, Michelle.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie. Michelle.

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Speaker 1: Do you know a huge amount about why this review

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Speaker 1: is being conducted at this point?

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Speaker 2: Well, Katie, I know a little. The review is of

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Speaker 2: secondary schools. It's of the way that secondary schools are

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Speaker 2: operating across the Northern Territory. That includes in towns with

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Speaker 2: the middle school and senior school model, and then also

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Speaker 2: our remote where a lot of kids end up going

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Speaker 2: to boarding school and it's very rare for kids to

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Speaker 2: go to school on community And it's around getting kids

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Speaker 2: engaged in school and re engaging the the large contingent

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Speaker 2: at the moment who are just simply not engaged.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, So it does sound as though you know

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Speaker 1: that looking into well, like you've said, they're obviously looking

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Speaker 1: at in community and kids going to boarding school, but

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Speaker 1: also looking at secondary or middle school and high school like,

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Speaker 1: is that the way things are done right around the

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Speaker 1: nation in terms of the middle school and high schools

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Speaker 1: being separated the way they are in the territory.

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Speaker 2: No, that's quite specific to the territory around the nation.

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Speaker 2: It's more regular to see for high schools of things

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Speaker 2: based on your level, except in a case by case circumstances.

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Speaker 2: The non territory is the only place that does it

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Speaker 2: as a blanket rule.

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Speaker 1: And what about kids starting middle school in year seven?

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Speaker 1: Is that something that happens right around the country as well?

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Speaker 1: Or do most of them start in that grade eight

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Speaker 1: year level?

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Speaker 2: Year seven is fairly standard nowadays, I believe for a

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Speaker 2: kid to start high school. But the yeah, the middle

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Speaker 2: school is the part that's slightly different. Yeah, that's my

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Speaker 2: best understanding anyway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, tell us a little bit about your understanding

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Speaker 1: of why the review is sort of being conducted as well,

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Speaker 1: or you know why it's needed. Well, my.

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Speaker 2: Issue is not with the review itself. I think that

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Speaker 2: if a review can be conducted and changes can be

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Speaker 2: made that will benefit kids and will benefit teachers, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: go ahead conduct a review. Make the changes. However, I

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Speaker 2: think that it is a band aid to the larger problem,

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Speaker 2: which is that we have this funding model in the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory for education that actually encourages non attendance rather

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Speaker 2: than attendance by funding on Sorry I've made a bit confusion,

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Speaker 2: but by funding on attendance and taking resources away from

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Speaker 2: when kids don't attend school, it actually create like stop

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Speaker 2: schools and being places where kids are able to attend. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Right, this is something that was raised with us as

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Speaker 1: well yesterday by Cogso Tabby Fudgen joined us on the

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Speaker 1: line because we're talking a bit more about the payoffer

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Speaker 1: that's obviously been put on the table and how exactly

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Speaker 1: it's going to be funded. I know that there've been

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Speaker 1: some concerns raised that some of that money was going

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Speaker 1: to be taken out of the current budgets. The Chief

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Speaker 1: Minister at pains to say that that's not going to

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Speaker 1: be the case. But it did sort of, you know,

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Speaker 1: reignite that discussion about the funding in the way in

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Speaker 1: which it is modeled here in the territory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was listening after Vacati. I was very

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Speaker 2: interested by what the Chief Minister had to say, it

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Speaker 2: was the first time I'd heard that there wouldn't be

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Speaker 2: funding required out of school budgets. In fact, what I

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Speaker 2: have heard from my principal members is that they're being

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Speaker 2: told to reserve a slife of their budget for this

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Speaker 2: new pay rise and for the back pay, a considerable

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Speaker 2: swife that's making it difficult for them to staff their

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Speaker 2: schools next year because of the way that the school

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Speaker 2: budgets are constructed. And again it comes back to this

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Speaker 2: attendance based funding. There's a whole issue with it. So

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Speaker 2: really in our language around it for using at the

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Speaker 2: moment is we're seeing at the moment schools are funded

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Speaker 2: for failure and we'd like to see them funded for success.

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Speaker 2: It's a big issue and one that the AU is

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Speaker 2: tackling had on because we unless that changes, we think

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Speaker 2: things like this secondary review and other strategies are really

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Speaker 2: just a band aid measure to the bigger problem.

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Speaker 1: So Michelle, just going back to the review for a second,

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Speaker 1: then I am keen to ask a bit more about

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Speaker 1: you know about that funding when it comes to the pays,

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Speaker 1: but just going back to the review, what are the

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Speaker 1: areas that need improvement aside from that budget Aside from

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Speaker 1: that funding, do you feel as though there are other

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Speaker 1: areas that need to be looked into, or the education

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Speaker 1: union fields as I need to be looked into when

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Speaker 1: it comes to secondary schooling in the territory, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think that there would be ways to improve it.

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Speaker 2: There's a few areas there. Remote education, the kids kids

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Speaker 2: being sent away to boarding school rather than investing in

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Speaker 2: education on community is a huge deal. So again with

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Speaker 2: this review, I'm all for reviews, but so long as

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Speaker 2: they're consulting the members of community that they're going to

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Speaker 2: be making the changes for, and the people who are

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Speaker 2: on the ground doing educating, for the teachers and principles,

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Speaker 2: and then for our urban and town schools there are

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Speaker 2: changes that can be made. The best people to know

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Speaker 2: what those changes are and how to affect change that

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Speaker 2: will be positive are again those principles, those teachers, the

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Speaker 2: people on the ground working with these kids day in

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Speaker 2: day out. They know what works, so it's time to

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Speaker 2: listen to them.

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Speaker 1: One of the other things that's been raised with me

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Speaker 1: recently is sort of I don't know whether they're called

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Speaker 1: well being offices but essentially or you know, whether they're

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Speaker 1: social offices, how exactly they're referred to within schools, but

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Speaker 1: essentially people who are able to give kids, particularly at

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Speaker 1: that middle school and high school age, that support when

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Speaker 1: it comes to some the social issues that we do

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Speaker 1: see within schools. Do we have enough of that kind

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Speaker 1: of support within our public school system at the moment?

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Speaker 2: Michelle, Yeah, well I'm not sure on that one, Katie.

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Speaker 2: I'm a primary school teacher. I out of a primary school,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know, well, I know how remote primary

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Speaker 2: schools work. I would hazard a guess at the answer

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Speaker 2: that is no. And also it depends on the location, right,

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Speaker 2: So if you are in Darwin or Parmerston or Alice,

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Speaker 2: you're more likely to have something like that than if

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Speaker 2: you are in one of our remote locations. And some

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Speaker 2: of these schools are extremely remote and that's where the

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Speaker 2: kids are really not attending and the ability to provide

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Speaker 2: those things is lower. But then also those kind of

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Speaker 2: things are what we're talking about when it comes to

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Speaker 2: this attendance based funding model, because they all take money,

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Speaker 2: and so what happens is when the budget is cut

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Speaker 2: down because kids aren't attending school, the principal has to

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Speaker 2: look at their budget and go, what can I afford

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Speaker 2: the first things that usually have to be cut are

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Speaker 2: things like things around well being because the things that

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Speaker 2: they need to focus on are educating the kids who

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Speaker 2: are there. So that is what creates this negative feedback

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Speaker 2: loops because you're taking away the things that could re

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Speaker 2: engage the kids who aren't attending, which causes them to

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Speaker 2: attend less, which causes them to get less funding, which

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Speaker 2: causes more resources to be taken away.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right now, Michelle, let's talk about this. You know,

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Speaker 1: the payoffer. Any idea how the voting's going at the

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Speaker 1: moment with that latest payoffer?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think your guess is as good as mine

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Speaker 2: at the moment, Katy, as I said I think to

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Speaker 2: you last week, the AU for this one, we've put

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Speaker 2: it out to our members. We're said it's up to

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Speaker 2: you how you want to vote, use your voice and

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Speaker 2: let the government know your opinion. I really hear it

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Speaker 2: both ways from the teachers that I'm out on the

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Speaker 2: ground with, so it yeah, could go either way.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll waiting here. I think when's it due back?

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Speaker 1: Is it the twelfth?

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Speaker 2: The twelfth, which is I believe one week from today

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Speaker 2: on Monday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the next week will be interesting to hear exactly

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Speaker 1: what comes out of that. And yeah, it's been a

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Speaker 1: really interesting discussion over the last couple of days as

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Speaker 1: we touched on the Chief Minister talking about where that

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Speaker 1: funding is coming from, and also NT Cogso and one

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Speaker 1: of the chair persons from to Mid Mid College talking

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Speaker 1: to us as well about their concerns around if that

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Speaker 1: funding is going to be coming from the current school budgets.

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Speaker 1: And as you've touched on, it's a concern that's been

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Speaker 1: raised by Principles. By the sounds of it, oh.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, because at this point Principles don't know how they're

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Speaker 2: going to start their schools next year. And that isn't

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Speaker 2: just you know, they don't know whether or not they're

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Speaker 2: going to be able to attract people to fill the roles.

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Speaker 2: They don't know if they're going to be able to

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Speaker 2: afford to have the roles next year. Unless the Department

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Speaker 2: and the ministers people in charge of money come up

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Speaker 2: quickly and tell the Principles how these things are going

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Speaker 2: to be funded next year, they have to sit there

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Speaker 2: and play hopscotch with their budgets to make it all work.

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Speaker 1: And did you think that that answer that the Chief

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Speaker 1: Minister are given yesterday provided that clarity.

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Speaker 2: Look, I mean it was good of her jump on

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Speaker 2: the radio and say that. Again, that was the first

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Speaker 2: I'd heard of it. And so what we need to

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Speaker 2: now see is then follow through on that so people

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Speaker 2: can say whatever they want on the radio, Right, that's

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Speaker 2: not actually policy, that's not actually money that's going into school.

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Speaker 2: So if they backed that up with actual action, absolutely

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Speaker 2: that would be great. But until I see that, that's

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Speaker 2: you know, we're still moving towards an issue here.

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I think that's fair enough. You know,

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Speaker 1: you guys need to have that certainty. The schools need

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Speaker 1: to have that certainty so they know exactly what to

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Speaker 1: plan for for next year, because well, we've got like

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Speaker 1: less than two weeks left of school.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's the other concern, Like this is coming

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Speaker 2: very late in the day. No matter what happens with

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Speaker 2: the agreement we've had. This is the third iteration of

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Speaker 2: this agreement we've had put to the teachers. They hang

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Speaker 2: hold as sorry, they held on to their wage freeze

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Speaker 2: until the start of October. It comes down to it.

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Speaker 2: The reason that we're in this time crunch is because

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Speaker 2: of the government. They could have changed their minds earlier

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Speaker 2: on that, and they chose to hold on to it

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Speaker 2: as long as possible, and now it's put us into

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Speaker 2: this real time crunch.

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Speaker 1: Well, Michelle Airs, we really appreciate your time. We've spoken

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Speaker 1: a lot this year, and we'll probably talk to you

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Speaker 1: again next week as we find out what the outcome

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Speaker 1: is to this vote.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure thanks for chutting.

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Speaker 1: Good on you, Michelle. Thank you