1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday, 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: the eleventh of August. I'm Sam Kazlowski. 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 2: I'm Emma Gillespie. 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: On Friday morning, New South Wales MP Gareth Ward resigned 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: from state parliament just moments before he was due to 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: be expelled by his fellow MPs. Ward was found guilty 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: of sexual assault defenses last month and is currently in 10 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: jail awaiting sentencing. On today's podcast, we're going to break 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: down what happened here, why it took so long to 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: get to this point, and what happens next. 13 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: Sam, we are talking today about jailed now former MP 14 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 2: Gareth Ward, a New South Wales politician. This has been 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: quite the political drama. It's stretched over months and years 16 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 2: and we finally have a resolution. But let's start with 17 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 2: who Gareth Ward is, especially for listeners outside of New 18 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: South Wales, and how we got to this situation. 19 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: So Gareth Ward was first elected to New South Wales 20 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: Parliament back in twenty eleven. He was representing the seat 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: of Kayama on the New South Wales South Coast. He 22 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: was a minister in the previous coalition government, but left 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: the party four years ago when historic sexual abuse allegations 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: against him first surfaced. 25 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: Okay So elected as a Liberal MP to the new 26 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 2: South Wales Parliament and then later ran as an independent 27 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: and was re elected. 28 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and despite these allegations against him, Ward was re 29 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: elected as an independent for Kiyama in twenty twenty three. 30 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: Now fast forward to this year and on the twenty 31 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: fifth of July, after a nine week trial in the 32 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: Downing Center District Court in Sydney, he was found guilty 33 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: of three counts of indecent assault and one count of 34 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: sexual intercourse without consent against two men who were a 35 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: eighteen and twenty four at the time of the offenses. 36 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: So Gareth Ward has been convicted. He is in prison 37 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: as we speak. And I think there are a lot 38 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 2: of people who would assume that those convictions automatically disqualified 39 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: him from the Parliament, that would sort of mean the 40 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 2: end of his political career. And I think this really 41 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: speaks to why this case has sparked such national interest, 42 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 2: because that's not actually how it works, is it. 43 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: No, And it's an interesting quirk in how our parliamentary 44 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: system works. MPs aren't automatically dismissed if criminal charges are 45 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: laid against them, or even if they're convicted. So Parliament 46 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: can pass what's called a motion to expel a member, 47 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: but only if their behavior would bring the House into disrepute. 48 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: And this kind of expulsion is super rare, so it 49 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: hasn't been done since nineteen sixty nine, and up until Friday, 50 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: both Labor and the Coalition were urging Ward to resign 51 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: on his own terms rather than force Parliament to take 52 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: what they consider an extraordinary step. 53 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is such a rare step. We should 54 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: clarify that this kind of expulsion is so rare in 55 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: New South Wales. It hasn't happened for one hundred and 56 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 2: seven years. So there have been other expulsions at other 57 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: levels of government, but incredibly rare set of circumstances for 58 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: the state. But as you mentioned, Ward didn't resign voluntarily 59 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: despite that pressure from MPs for him to step aside 60 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: rather than be forced out. What was his strategy? Why 61 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 2: didn't he resign after he was convicted? 62 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: It took a little bit of time, didn't it for 63 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: him to actually come around to that decision. So Ward 64 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: is currently in custody. He instructed his lawyers to apply 65 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: to the New South Wales Supreme Court to delay the 66 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: vote in New South Wales Parliament on his expulsion. And 67 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: there were kind of two key arguments that he wanted 68 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: his legal team to mount. And so the first one 69 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: was that Parliament couldn't remove him while he was still 70 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: awaiting his sentencing and while he was planning to appeal 71 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: his conviction. And the second argument was that Ward wouldn't 72 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: have the opportunit unity to respond to the motion in 73 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: parliament because clearly he's in jail. And I guess from 74 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: that respect it's a fair point. Procedurally he's literally in 75 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: a jail cell and can't actually physically appear at the 76 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: Parliament to give a speech in his own defense, okay. 77 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 2: But also he's in jail because he has been found 78 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 2: guilty of sex offenses. But it is a fascinating legal 79 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: argument to unpack. How did the courts respond? 80 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: So initially the court granted a temporary order to prevent 81 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: New South Wales Parliament from having this expulsion vote from 82 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: going ahead. The government said it had chosen to respect 83 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: the will of the court, even though there's this really 84 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 1: interesting battle between the Supreme Court and the way that 85 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: the Parliament is run. It's kind of that church versus state, okay, 86 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: idea coming into it. But the government then appealed to 87 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: that decision in the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court allowed 88 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: for an urgent hearing on Thursday afternoon and then ultimately 89 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: rejected Wards lawyer's arguments and ruled that the exp bulsion 90 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: vote could go ahead, and that was set for around 91 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: ten o'clock on Friday morning. 92 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: Okay, so we have this vote scheduled to happen in 93 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: the Lower House of New South Wales Parliament to expel 94 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: Gareth Ward, but that didn't end up going ahead because 95 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 2: after all of these calls for his resignation, after months 96 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: of that push, he finally did just that. 97 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the vote was unnecessary because he sent a 98 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: letter to the Lower House speaker, a man called Greg Piper, 99 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: and Gareth Ward confirmed he had submitted a resignation. It 100 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: was effective immediately. So essentially it was kind of almost 101 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: half an hour or maybe even generously an hour before 102 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: this vote that Ward voluntarily resigned and his fellow MPs 103 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: were no longer needed to gather in the chamber to 104 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: vote to kick him out. 105 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 2: And we know that the vote would have ultimately ended 106 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 2: in his expulsion because we had heard from the Labor 107 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: government and the Liberal opposition who said they were all 108 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: in favor of removing him from the house. 109 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: Exactly, it was really a done deal. 110 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: So what was the reaction from Parliament then? They'd been 111 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 2: gearing up for this vote and at the eleventh hour, 112 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 2: essentially Ward chooses to step down. What did Parliament say? 113 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: Well, New South Wales's Lower House leader Ron Honig said 114 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: this afterwards resignation. 115 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 3: Not in one hundred and seven years has this House 116 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 3: been required to expel a member and the fact that 117 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: we were about to make such a determination is a 118 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 3: pretty shameful exercise and should have been done following the 119 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 3: verdict by the jury. 120 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: On the other side of the aisle, Liberal leader Mark 121 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: Speakman has said the opposition was ready to have Gareth 122 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: Ward expelled from Parliament after Thursday's court ruling. So, as 123 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: you said, it was a done deal and then it 124 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: kind of took another path to the same results just 125 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:53,559 Speaker 1: before the vote. 126 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was really interesting hearing from Ron Honig, 127 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: the Lower House leader you mentioned, after all of this happened. 128 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: He spoke about the people of Kayama. So this is 129 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: the electorate that Gareth Ward represented, saying that they as 130 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: an electorate had put their faith in him, that they 131 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: had re elected him presuming his innocence after he was charged, 132 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: that he had said he was innocent and that they 133 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: respected that that. Ultimately, you know, not only had he 134 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: let down the parliament by dragging the process out, but 135 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 2: that he had also let down those voters too. So, Sam, 136 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: what will happen now he's no longer the member for Kayama. 137 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: So does that trigger a by election? 138 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: Exactly? So the people of Kayama will have to go 139 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: back to the polls and vote for their new representative 140 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: in the new South Wales Parliament. No date has been 141 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: set yet for that by election. Ward will remain in custody. 142 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: He's been remanded since that guilty verdict and has a 143 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: sentencing hearing scheduled for the nineteenth of September. His legal 144 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: team says he still does plan to appeal the conviction, 145 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: but no formal appeal has been lodged yet. 146 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: Okay, Sam, before we wrap this up, I do want 147 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: to zoom out a little bit and ask you about 148 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: this whole idea of automatically suspending a parliamentarian or that 149 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 2: not being the case. You know, not just in New 150 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: South Wales, but this is the process in other states 151 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: and territories, and even in a federal context. If someone's 152 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: charged with a serious offense, that doesn't automatically discount them. 153 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: And I think this has really been the center of 154 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: the conversation. 155 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: Totally, and it's such a tough question to answer because 156 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: you kind of have two competing ideas here. You've got 157 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: the idea of protecting our democratic institutions and making sure 158 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: that there's people in those positions of power that are 159 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: respected and have i mean physically freedom of movement and 160 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: arn't in the jail cell yep. But also then you 161 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: have this idea of due process, so the idea that 162 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: somebody should be eligible to have a fair trial and 163 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: they're innocent until proven guilty. And I guess in Gareth 164 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: Ward's case, if he's planning an appeal, then this is 165 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: an ongoing legal process. And so on one hand, MP's 166 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: convicted of serious crimes clearly undermine public trust. Most people 167 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: would say it's totally untenable to have someone representing them 168 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: from a jail cell. And as we saw in Ward's case, 169 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: courts are generally going to accept that parliaments can actually 170 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: kick out members who damage the institution's reputation. But if 171 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: you're talking about automatically suspending a parliamentarian just based on 172 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: charges being laid, that's a much trickier situation, and that 173 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: legal experts say could threaten the presumption of innocence. 174 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, you do have to wonder, you know, for the 175 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 2: people of an electorate, whether or not a person is 176 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 2: accused of something, and whether or not that means they're guilty, 177 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 2: the time that it takes for them to either fight 178 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: those charges or appear in court go to lengthy hearings, 179 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: you know, whether the distraction of what that could place 180 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 2: on them or the burden of those proceedings, you know, 181 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: whether that's the right thing for an electorate to have 182 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 2: their member be so preoccupied, I think is also a 183 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 2: worthy equal. 184 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: Question, And that kind of leads into something I was 185 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: thinking about a lot, which is that the people of 186 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: Kayama and whatever electorate we talk about with a story 187 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: like this, they're entitled to a representative in parliament, and 188 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: they deserve a voice in parliament, as we all do 189 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: in part of a democracy. And if you have somebody 190 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: who is facing charges going through a jury system. You know, 191 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: whether they are found guilty or innocent at the end, 192 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: You're right, they're not able to do their job for 193 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: the people of their electorate in that time. And in 194 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: some ways, the expulsion of Gareth Ward, or the resignation 195 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: just before the expulsion, actually means that the people of 196 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: Kayama can now actually get a voice back through this 197 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: by election process. It was much harder for the people 198 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: of Kayama when there was a suspension because he technically 199 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: was still the member, but he couldn't in all honesty 200 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: do the job that he needed to exactly. 201 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 2: Really fascinating, Sam. Thank you so much for taking us 202 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 2: through that one. Thanks Sam, Thank you so much for 203 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: listening to today's deep Dive. That's all from us for 204 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: now that we will be back this evening with your 205 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: news headlines. And just a quick reminder if this episode 206 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: has raised any issues for you, help is available through 207 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: one eight hundred respect We'll pop some resources in the 208 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: episode description. 209 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 210 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 211 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 212 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 213 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 214 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.