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Speaker 1: Would you like to understand autism better? Today? A preview

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Speaker 1: of a fascinating conversation that I've had with a professor

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Speaker 1: from Westmead Hospital and the University of Sydney about autism.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families podcast, Real Parenting

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Speaker 1: Solutions every single day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.

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Speaker 1: My name's doctor justin course, I'm here with my wife

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Speaker 1: and mum to our six kids, Kylie, Kylie. Just recently

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Speaker 1: I've had a discussion with a professor who this guy

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Speaker 1: knows stuff. His name's Professor Adam A. Guestella. He works

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Speaker 1: at the Sydney Children's Hospital at Westmead and the Brain

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Speaker 1: and Mind Center at the University of Sydney and what

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Speaker 1: he tries to do is build collaborative partnerships between researchers

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Speaker 1: and clinicians and services to ensure that kids and families

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Speaker 1: receive the best available assessments and treatments to support well being.

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Speaker 1: He the co leader of the Child neuro Development and

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Speaker 1: Mental Health Team for the University of Sydney. This guy

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Speaker 1: knows his stuff around autism and as you know, there

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Speaker 1: is more and more challenge and more and more confusion

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Speaker 1: around raising children with neurodivergent challenges.

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Speaker 2: I love how you talk about this idea of collaborative partnerships. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: he's a pretty clever guy. He's got some pretty big

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Speaker 2: letters at the end of his name. But I just

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Speaker 2: love the acknowledgment that it doesn't matter how smart or

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Speaker 2: clever you are, you can't be everything to everyone. And

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Speaker 2: the idea that he is looking at ways to pull

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Speaker 2: in all the goodness that he can to support family

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Speaker 2: specifically dealing with this challenge is just It's powerful.

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Speaker 1: I love talking to him. On Saturday, We're going to

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Speaker 1: play the full interview, but I know not everybody has

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Speaker 1: time to listen to the whole thing, and some people

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Speaker 1: are sort of going, well, should I or shouldn't I

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Speaker 1: invest I'm going to play this snippet. I asked him

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Speaker 1: a question that I hear all the time, and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to hear the way he would respond to it.

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Speaker 1: I said, when it comes to autism specifically, it used

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Speaker 1: to be known as autism spectrum disorder, but increasingly people

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Speaker 1: are pushing back and pushing back hard against the idea

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Speaker 1: that autism is a disorder or even that ADHD is

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Speaker 1: a disorder, So I asked him how he would respond

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Speaker 1: to that particular query.

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Speaker 3: The issue in this space really is that it's not

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Speaker 3: all about changing the child, which the term disorder sort

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Speaker 3: of insinuates that it's something we have to fix in

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Speaker 3: a child to get optimal health outcomes. And the answer

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Speaker 3: is certainly not that right. It's about actually going what

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Speaker 3: in the environment needs to change to make the environment

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Speaker 3: easier to learn from, What in the environment needs to

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Speaker 3: change to encourage more cohesive and more supportive interactions with

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Speaker 3: people and better friendships, and also what in the environment

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Speaker 3: needs to change so that people can succeed in achieving

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Speaker 3: the goals they want to achieve. And so the focus

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Speaker 3: is very much on helping the individual, but also recognizing

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Speaker 3: that the environment can change in a huge way as well.

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Speaker 3: And related to that, when people have done studies and

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Speaker 3: change environments to be more or we term inclusive to

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Speaker 3: support children and adults with autism and other neuro own

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Speaker 3: developmental needs, those environments are really good for everyone. You know,

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, we start seeing improvements in learning

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Speaker 3: outcomes for all the kids in the class, not just

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Speaker 3: the kids that have in your own developmental condition.

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Speaker 2: I love this I love this. I love this idea

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Speaker 2: that when we suggest that there's a disorder, we're suggesting

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Speaker 2: that something needs fixing. And if we turn that on

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Speaker 2: its head, it's the acknowledgment that our children are broken.

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Speaker 2: And our children aren't broken. The environment that surround them

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Speaker 2: is broken. It's not supporting them in the areas that

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Speaker 2: they need support and to have success. And I just

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Speaker 2: I love that if we were all on the same

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Speaker 2: page with this, society in general would be safer for everyone.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those things that I have been

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Speaker 1: I guess, banging the drum about for such a long time.

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Speaker 1: We've created a society that is not in the best

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Speaker 1: interests of children's development.

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Speaker 2: He even acknowledges that he acknowledges that when changes are

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Speaker 2: made to the environment, it's not only the children who

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Speaker 2: are struggling with autism, right that benefit, the entire class benefits.

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Speaker 1: Got on and this. I talked to him a bit

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Speaker 1: about self determination theory. He wasn't familiar with it, and

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Speaker 1: I said, what do you think and he was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is it right. So that means that if we

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Speaker 1: can build stronger relationships, if we can help kids to

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Speaker 1: feel like they're progressing and developing mastery and confidence in

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Speaker 1: these areas, and if they feel like they're in the

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Speaker 1: driver's seat of their lives because they've got some volition, choice, autonomy,

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Speaker 1: they do so much better. And he just like, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: and yes. When parents say to me, will that book

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Speaker 1: that you wrote, The Pairing Revolution, will that help my

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Speaker 1: autistic child or my ADHD child, My response one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent is yes, because when you create the environment the

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Speaker 1: supportive of their needs, of course they're going to thrive.

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Speaker 1: And that's really what he's getting at. What he was

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Speaker 1: really doing was just endorsing my book. I shouldn't say that, Sorry, Andrew,

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Speaker 1: if you're listening now, There's one other thing that I

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Speaker 1: do have to highlight. Though he's emphasized that environment matters,

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Speaker 1: it's key, but he also did clearly say that our

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Speaker 1: goal is to help the individual as well. It's not

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Speaker 1: either either, and some people are taking it really really

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Speaker 1: hard and saying no, no, no, no, there's nothing the matter

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Speaker 1: with my child. My child's perfect. It's the environment's of

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Speaker 1: the problem. We wouldn't do that to a neurotypical child.

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Speaker 1: We are very much interested in helping neurotypical children to

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Speaker 1: grow and we're quite happy to point out areas where

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Speaker 1: they're not performing strongly and work on remedial interventions and saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is an area where you're not doing so great,

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Speaker 1: let's build you up there. When we're talking about neurodivergent children,

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Speaker 1: the same principle applies. We don't just say, well, you're perfect,

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Speaker 1: the environment's the problem. It really is a both and

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Speaker 1: rather than either or.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's an acknowledgment that we're all individual, right, They're

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Speaker 2: all really unique and we have different ways of learning.

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Speaker 2: And if we understand that and we're able to build

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Speaker 2: a structure that supports that individual space, then of course

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Speaker 2: we're all going to benefit.

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Speaker 1: The great irony is when you get the environment right

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Speaker 1: and those basic psychological needs are being supported, you become

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Speaker 1: more growth oriented. Anyway, Okay, after break, one more thing

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Speaker 1: that Professor Andrew Gostela had to say that I just

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Speaker 1: got to play you ahead of our full length interview

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Speaker 1: on Saturday. When I was talking to Professor Andrew Costella

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Speaker 1: from the University of Sydney and Westmead Hospital about raising

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Speaker 1: children with developmental needs. We talked about how often it's

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Speaker 1: usually someone like Grandpa Joe or anymored who'll say it's

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Speaker 1: poor parenting, or these neurodevelopmental challenges are not actually a thing.

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Speaker 2: You're saying it like it's your family members that are

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Speaker 2: often the biggest challenge. But in my personal experience, often

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Speaker 2: it has been the medical professionals who don't agree or

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Speaker 2: don't believe that what you're experiencing is real. And as

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Speaker 2: a parent who was dealing with the day to day

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Speaker 2: challenges that exist with having a neurodivergent child, to be

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Speaker 2: told that there is nothing wrong with them and it's

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Speaker 2: all your fault, essentially, it's such a lonely place to sit,

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Speaker 2: and not only lonely but heavy. It's heavy because you

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Speaker 2: know what you're experiencing on a day to day basis,

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Speaker 2: and you know the challenges that your child is experiencing,

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Speaker 2: and there doesn't seem to be anyone to help.

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Speaker 1: Asked him how this plays out in terms of what's

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Speaker 1: going on with kids in school and push back against

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Speaker 1: the NDIS and support There are plenty of people who

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Speaker 1: are arguing that we're wasting all of our tax payer

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Speaker 1: money on supporting kids that just need better pairing in

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Here's what he had to say.

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Speaker 3: When you don't provide the right support and you don't

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Speaker 3: give people the needs that they have, then you get

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Speaker 3: poor outcomes. We know that autistic people and people with

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Speaker 3: ADHD have enormously high rates of bullying and schools enormously

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Speaker 3: high rates. They are victims over and over and over again,

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Speaker 3: and it's a consistent story of trauma and dislike of

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Speaker 3: schools in regards to their peers for a lot of

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Speaker 3: young people. We also know that under achievement, particularly in

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Speaker 3: those later years, is very very common in comparison to

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Speaker 3: their cognitive ability. And so if we're happy for people

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Speaker 3: not to succeed and fulfill their potential, if we're happy

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Speaker 3: for people to be excluded and to be bullied in

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Speaker 3: our schools and where happens, for people to underperform and

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Speaker 3: then to have what is often lifelong self esteem issues

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Speaker 3: and difficulties then moving on into other fields, then yes,

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Speaker 3: we should leave things the way they are. Stark.

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Speaker 2: So, what I love again about this is this actually

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Speaker 2: creates this beautiful framework for what support workers that go

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Speaker 2: into children's homes actually do. It takes me back to

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Speaker 2: a conversation you and I had recently on the podcast

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Speaker 2: where we talked about this notion and idea of not

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Speaker 2: necessarily putting so much energy and effort into our children

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Speaker 2: hanging out with their classmates at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: but finding positive role models adults in their lives who

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Speaker 2: can benefit them and they can learn and glean from

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Speaker 2: and see different perspectives. And if we look at that

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Speaker 2: with the acknowledgment that often these kids are the ones

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Speaker 2: that are victimized, they are the ones that are bullied,

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Speaker 2: they are the ones that are left alone in the playground,

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Speaker 2: and recognize that we have support workers there to be

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Speaker 2: another safe place, another safe port, another person who's cheering

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Speaker 2: them on from the sidelines. That actually changes the conversation.

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Speaker 1: You can hear the entire interview with Professor Adam Gstella

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Speaker 1: from both Sydney Children's Hospital at Westmead and the Brain

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Speaker 1: and Mind Center at the University of Sydney this Saturday morning.

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Speaker 1: Great conversation for anyone who wants to know more about

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Speaker 1: neurodivergent needs raising kids who are autistic or who have

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Speaker 1: an ADHD diagnosis. This is a conversation that I just relished.

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Speaker 1: It's a little bit geeky, Kylie, It's an opportunity for

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Speaker 1: two psychology needs to geek out a bit on the

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Speaker 1: academic research, but really really compelling, all about helping with

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Speaker 1: executive function and you know what I'm not. It's just great.

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Speaker 1: Saturday morning, that's when you want to check it out.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. If you'd like more information and resources to

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Speaker 1: make your family happier, visit us at happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot um

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Speaker 3: M hmm