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Speaker 1: Addressing Online Harm in Australian Women's Sport is a landmark

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Speaker 1: investigation by Deacon University into the online harassment and.

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Speaker 2: Abuse of the nation's top sports women.

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Speaker 1: It explores the experience, impact and potential solutions to online

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Speaker 1: harm of professional elite women's sport athletes across Australia. I

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Speaker 1: had the chance to sit down with the researchers, doctor

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Speaker 1: Kim Toppoletti and doctor Kaylan mccrane, so I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: a little bit about each of their experiences in the

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Speaker 1: research world. Dtor Kim Topoletti is internationally recognized for her

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Speaker 1: indisciplinary research on women's sport and media. Kim's research has

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Speaker 1: been published in top ranking academic journals. She's the associate

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Speaker 1: editor of the Sociology of Sport Journal and sits on

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Speaker 1: the editorial board of Communication and Sport Journal. Doctor Kaylin

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Speaker 1: mccrane is a digital ethnographic researcher interested in gender, technical

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Speaker 1: and everyday life. She's currently a research fellow at Deacon

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Speaker 1: University in Rimt University. At Deacon, she has led research

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Speaker 1: intergendered online harassment in sport. This is an incredible piece

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Speaker 1: of research and I hope you enjoy listening to more

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Speaker 1: of some findings and what the next steps are from

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Speaker 1: here to resolve what is a really really big issue

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Speaker 1: in Australian women's sport. Doctor Kim and doctor Caitlin. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Female Athlete Project.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be great to have a chat, and

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Speaker 1: we might start with you, Caitlin. Can you give us

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Speaker 1: a bit of a background about your experience and how

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Speaker 1: you've come to the point of working on such incredible research.

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Speaker 2: That's a really good question.

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Speaker 3: So my background is in the investigation of gendered online

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Speaker 3: harassment and harm directed towards women in the public eye.

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Speaker 3: So previously I worked on projects looking at the harassment

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Speaker 3: of women in the media and women in politics, and

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Speaker 3: the third part of that was working on women in sport.

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Speaker 3: So this is the kind of the third part of

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Speaker 3: that kind of trifecta of work that I've been doing

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Speaker 3: for several years, and this comes out of some work

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Speaker 3: that I was doing. All of that work was at

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Speaker 3: Gender Equity Victoria. So it's got this real sort of

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Speaker 3: feminist focus on highlighting the harms but also thinking about

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Speaker 3: it from a workplace health and safety perspective. So what

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Speaker 3: are the solutions, What are the ways that we can

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Speaker 3: make things better rather than just pointing out what the

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Speaker 3: really negative things are.

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Speaker 1: And for you, Kim, can you give us a bit

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Speaker 1: of an insight into your background.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm a sports sociologist, so I've been working in

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Speaker 4: the women in sports space for well maybe twenty years

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Speaker 4: and one of the key research streams that I've been

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Speaker 4: looking at more recently is how women athletes have been

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Speaker 4: using social media, particularly with the rise of social media,

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Speaker 4: and so part of that is also looking at the

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Speaker 4: kind of responses to their social media engagement and profiles

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Speaker 4: and so identifying that along with social media being potentially

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Speaker 4: really useful to give women athletes visibility in ways that

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Speaker 4: they don't get in the mainstream media, that also comes

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Speaker 4: with particular negative effects. And so when Caitlin contacted me

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Speaker 4: to say do you want to pony up and do

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Speaker 4: this research together, I was really excited at the opportunity

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Speaker 4: to actually develop this in a much more sustained way

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Speaker 4: looking at a much broader athlete cohort, that being Australian sportswomen.

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Speaker 1: And can you give us a bit of a rundown,

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn about this research. It's very much a landmark piece

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Speaker 1: of research, and when I heard the topic, I just

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Speaker 1: was immediately so looking forward to discussing it because it's

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Speaker 1: such a key topic that impacts so many female athletes.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, so I think you helped us with the recruitment

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Speaker 3: for this as well. Actually, I think you shared the

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Speaker 3: corporate participants on your Instagram, which is super helpful. So

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Speaker 3: essentially this project is an anonymous survey with a handful

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Speaker 3: maybe about I think it's seven semi structured interviews. So

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Speaker 3: the survey was really about hearing from athletes in a

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Speaker 3: way that was really was about safety primarily and about

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Speaker 3: making sure that there was nothing identifiable that we could

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Speaker 3: get from the data, but it was giving women athletes

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Speaker 3: a space to talk about what was happening because I

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Speaker 3: just had this hunch. I just had this hunch that

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Speaker 3: I was like, well, because I'm an athlete as well,

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Speaker 3: I do a lot of ultra marathon running, not a lot.

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Speaker 3: I do some ultra marathon running, and some is impressive.

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Speaker 3: And I noticed it like the athletes that I knew,

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Speaker 3: you know, like I could see it happening in front

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Speaker 3: of me in a way that you know, it was

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Speaker 3: kind of it was this sort of different thing to

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Speaker 3: say people in the media where they're perhaps tasked with

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Speaker 3: presenting a particular perspective, or even women in politics, where

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Speaker 3: they there is this kind of adversarial kind of way

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Speaker 3: of doing things that I think, yes, you're competing in sports,

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Speaker 3: there is a lot of there is a lot of

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Speaker 3: that sort of adversarial stuff as well, But it was

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Speaker 3: so vitriolic the stuff that I was sort of seeing

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Speaker 3: happen to other people that I was like, there's something

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Speaker 3: really significant about this, and that women's sport is so

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Speaker 3: massively underfunded. It's massively under resourced. So what we found

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Speaker 3: in this study that is really significant is that it's

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Speaker 3: not just your AFOW players and nrl W players who

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Speaker 3: are copying heaps of abuse. It's like show jumping, cheerleading,

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Speaker 3: like the sort of really sort of women dominated perhaps

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Speaker 3: sports or areas where there's maybe a bit more gender

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Speaker 3: equity in the ways that athletes are able to compete

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Speaker 3: or what have you. That's where we're seeing abuse as

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Speaker 3: well as where we're seeing harassments, where we're seeing harm,

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Speaker 3: And we changed our language from thinking about harassment and

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Speaker 3: abuse to harm to really capture the range of different experiences.

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Speaker 3: So just talking about harassment and abuse doesn't quite cover

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Speaker 3: the things that are still really emotionally harmful that can't

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Speaker 3: be chalked up to abusive content. So one of the

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Speaker 3: problems with sort of thinking about and we can get

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Speaker 3: to this later as well, that in terms of thinking

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Speaker 3: about recommendations and change, is that some of what people

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Speaker 3: are talking about happening to them can't be detected by

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Speaker 3: things like detect and delete machine learning software. They're things

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Speaker 3: that can't be taken down through the E Safety Commissioner's

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Speaker 3: Adult cyber Abuse Scheme. They may not even necessarily be

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Speaker 3: recognized by social media platforms as being harmful, but they're

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Speaker 3: still having this impact. So what do we do about them?

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Speaker 3: What do we do about the things that are making

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Speaker 3: it feel overwhelming and hard in an already overwhelming and

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Speaker 3: hard environment for a lot of women. So that's kind

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Speaker 3: that was sort of the background and what we were

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Speaker 3: doing with this research. And so I think that the

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Speaker 3: people who've come forward and talked through the survey and

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Speaker 3: in interviews about their experiences are so they're so bright

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Speaker 3: you first of all, but they're also so indicative, like

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Speaker 3: I think you've said, of a much broader problem, a

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Speaker 3: much broader cultural problem that we have with female athletes

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Speaker 3: as a concept.

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Speaker 2: Interesting what you touched on around.

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Speaker 1: That it's not necessarily the sports that were previously male dominated.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was quite an interesting piece when I

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Speaker 1: was reading that did prior studies almost indicate that they

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Speaker 1: thought it was worse just in male dominated sports, but

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Speaker 1: yours has almost shown that that's not the case.

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Speaker 3: I don't know that that's something that's arisen out of

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Speaker 3: Kim can speak to whether that's something that has come

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Speaker 3: out of previous studies that whether sort of the male

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Speaker 3: domination of a particular but that was something that we've

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Speaker 3: seen in something like say media and politics shy two

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Speaker 3: areas of previous research that they have been historically very

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Speaker 3: very male dominated generally. And so my suspicion when I

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Speaker 3: started doing this research was I was like, I reckon,

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Speaker 3: we'll get more from you know, these particular athletes, and

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Speaker 3: then it was like, oh no, it's just everywhere. It's

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Speaker 3: across the board. It's not necessarily. Maybe a future research

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Speaker 3: project would be looking at whether it was worse in

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Speaker 3: those sort of traditionally male dominated sports, but that's not

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Speaker 3: something that we've seen, and I think what it does

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Speaker 3: is it tries to That result kind of breaks down

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Speaker 3: the idea of there being a hierarchy that like, well,

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Speaker 3: there's the male dominated sports and they get all the

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Speaker 3: resources and attention and time and what have you, and

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Speaker 3: then there's sort of all the other sports kind of dissolves.

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Speaker 3: I think some of that hierarchy that can start to

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Speaker 3: exist around what sports are worthwhile paying attention to, and

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Speaker 3: what athletes are worthwhile paying attention to.

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Speaker 1: Kim, I'd love to go into a bit more detail.

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Speaker 1: There was four key topics covered in the report, and

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Speaker 1: you touched on earlier the way that female athletes are

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Speaker 1: using social media. Can you share a little bit about

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Speaker 1: what those patterns look like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Sure, I guess the first thing to acknowledge is that

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Speaker 4: social media use is not a choice. It actually is mandated,

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Speaker 4: whether that is by the clubs or sporting organization themselves.

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Speaker 4: There's a requirement for athletes to have some sort of presence,

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Speaker 4: and in that regard, online spaces become workspaces, and so

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Speaker 4: we need to think about this as a workplace issue

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Speaker 4: also for athletes. As you would well know, Chloe and

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Speaker 4: Caitlin has mentioned, women's sport tends to be dreadfully underfunded.

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Speaker 4: So social media is a place where women can obtain

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Speaker 4: visibility and then with the hope of sponsorships or some

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Speaker 4: sort of renumeration to even just participate in their sport

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Speaker 4: and not be out of financial loss. So it becomes

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Speaker 4: an insupportant place, but also for sharing their achievements and

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Speaker 4: having that broad visibility that the media, the mainstream media

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Speaker 4: doesn't give them. So in that respect, we found that,

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Speaker 4: you know, the majority of athletes have more than one account,

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Speaker 4: and that that actually requires a fair bit of work

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Speaker 4: from them, that they are actually trying to raise their

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Speaker 4: profile on top of training schedules, paid work, and so

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Speaker 4: recognizing that this is actually an active part of their

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Speaker 4: athlete identity and athlete work. And so I think that's

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Speaker 4: important to acknowledge that that social media use is i'd

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Speaker 4: essentially say it is kind of socially mandated but also

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Speaker 4: organizationally mandated, and we need to recognize that. And so

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Speaker 4: in a way that those arguments around well, women, if

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Speaker 4: they don't like what they see online, should just get

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Speaker 4: off the internet, I find that, you know, that puts

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Speaker 4: women in a possible situation because it further marginalizes and

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Speaker 4: invisibilizes them, and so they are having to contend with

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Speaker 4: abuse and hostility, feeling discomfort, and also yes, the kind

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Speaker 4: of having to carry this essentially on their own. And

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Speaker 4: so we're seeing that certain platforms tend to athletes are

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Speaker 4: reporting that they're tending to experience abuse more on certain platforms,

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Speaker 4: and others they tend to be the more sort of

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Speaker 4: visual centric platform. So that also tells us something about

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Speaker 4: the requirement that women represent their bodies, that this is

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Speaker 4: a sort of form of social or cultural currency for women,

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Speaker 4: but when they do, they're often policed and punished. So

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Speaker 4: platforms like Instagram, we find that we're lots of users

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Speaker 4: on that, but Facebook also, and I think I'm trying

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Speaker 4: to think what the other most popular platform was, A

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Speaker 4: lot of them also experienced harm On Twitter. That was

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Speaker 4: a big place, and that, even though that's not as

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Speaker 4: visually oriented, that tends to be a bit more of

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Speaker 4: a sort of cesspit for.

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Speaker 2: The great word great word, I.

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Speaker 4: Guess, permissible kind of you know, abuse, And so that

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Speaker 4: was a forum where women tended to also experience quite

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Speaker 4: high levels of hatred online.

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Speaker 2: It's so.

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Speaker 1: Validating, I think, is how it feels hearing the fact

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Speaker 1: that it's actually your workplace and you should there should

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Speaker 1: be things put in place to make you feel safe

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Speaker 1: in your workplace. And I know I don't feel safe

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the time in these social media spaces.

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Speaker 1: And to recognize that, like I couldn't get endorsements and

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Speaker 1: ambassadorships without social media, as you touched on, it is

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Speaker 1: almost a compulsory part of what I need to do

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Speaker 1: in my job.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 1: Just to even hear that set out loud, like you

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Speaker 1: should feel safe in your workplace and that is part

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Speaker 1: of your workplace is such a key topic to address.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think if we frame it that way,

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Speaker 4: then there is time. Then I think that sports organizations

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Speaker 4: and governing bodies recognize this as a place where safeguarding

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Speaker 4: needs to happen. And it also I think forces us

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Speaker 4: also to think about how these kinds of organizations can

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Speaker 4: lobby platforms and work with social media providers to help

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Speaker 4: eradicate some of these kinds of harms which I think

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Speaker 4: you are impacting their athletes. And also more broadly, I

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Speaker 4: think sending messages about the devaluing of women more broadly

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Speaker 4: in society, but also women's athleticism and achievements as sporting

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Speaker 4: players and employees.

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Speaker 1: You've touched on some of the key platforms. What are

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Speaker 1: some of the types of online harm that these athletes

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Speaker 1: are experiencing and the prevalence of it, Kaitlyn, we might

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Speaker 1: come to you for this one.

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Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely happy to talk about the kinds of harassment. Oh, So,

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Speaker 3: the most commonly experienced kind of online harm we found

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Speaker 3: with personal insults. We looked at things like we ever

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Speaker 3: talked about personal insults. We asked people, So we had

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Speaker 3: a few different things, So the most common was personal insults.

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Speaker 3: We also looked at things, We looked at a range

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Speaker 3: of different kinds of harm we talked about We asked

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Speaker 3: people about hate speech, which sixty two percent of people

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Speaker 3: said they experienced hate speech, sixty percent purposeful attempts to embarrass,

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Speaker 3: fifty percent harassment, and thirty nine percent sexual harassment. So

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Speaker 3: that was things like unwanted sexualized comments on Instagram photos

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Speaker 3: and comments about the fits of uniforms, the body shapes. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: all sorts of things around the body were really big

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Speaker 3: themes that came out of our analysis. The other thing

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Speaker 3: that I think it's important to touch on is the

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Speaker 3: kind of intersectional nature of a lot of these harms.

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Speaker 3: So when people talked about experiencing harassment or abuse or

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Speaker 3: hatred or harm not just in relation to gender identity,

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Speaker 3: but also in relation to things like sexuality and race

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Speaker 3: in particular. So one in four athletes experience gendered and

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Speaker 3: homophobic abuse and one in five experience gendered and racialized abuse.

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Speaker 3: So we can see that the impact and we also

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Speaker 3: know that the impacts of those things are not evenly

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Speaker 3: distributed either. So while there's sort of we found that

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Speaker 3: there was a number of people who said that they

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Speaker 3: felt that they're the impact on their athletic performance and

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Speaker 3: their economic opportunities were sort of they were significant, But

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Speaker 3: we saw that when it got to well being, when

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Speaker 3: you combined and gender and sexuality in gender, the impact

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Speaker 3: on well being was much much higher than when it

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Speaker 3: had been just based on gender. So that tells us that,

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Speaker 3: you know, people from marginalized communities are copying so much

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Speaker 3: more emotionally damaging abuse because it is in often this

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Speaker 3: stuff is happening when people are on their own, they're

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Speaker 3: at home, they might be kind of just trying to

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Speaker 3: kill time, they might be trying to think about something else,

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Speaker 3: they might just be trying to have I don't know

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Speaker 3: a little brain break from being in the world when

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Speaker 3: you look at social media, and then to be confronted

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Speaker 3: with something that's so I mean, this stuff is really violent,

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Speaker 3: especially when it's in intersectionally abusive, it's particularly violent. So

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Speaker 3: to be confronted by that, I think is a real

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Speaker 3: indictment on the way that, like Kim said, the way

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Speaker 3: that we value women in societ and in sport, but

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Speaker 3: also in the way that workplaces treat this kind of abuse,

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Speaker 3: in this kind of harassment and harm as kind of

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Speaker 3: path of the course, as something that you should expect

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Speaker 3: that if you're a woman in the public eye, if

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Speaker 3: you're a woman playing sport, if you're a woman basically

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Speaker 3: doing anything that you should expect that there will be

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Speaker 3: some pushback and that it will be related to the

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Speaker 3: things that are most sensitive about who you are. So

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Speaker 3: whether that's your gender, or your race, or your sexuality

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Speaker 3: or combination of all of those things, that those things

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Speaker 3: are up for public consumption and public comment.

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Speaker 2: It's scary.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is really scary.

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Speaker 2: It is. Kim.

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Speaker 1: Can you touch on what the reporting process looks like

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Speaker 1: at the moment and when people do put their hand

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Speaker 1: up and say this is what's happened to me, what

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Speaker 1: actually happens from there.

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Speaker 4: Different sports organizations will have different supports and reporting options

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Speaker 4: in place. The e Safety Commission does provide recommendations on

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Speaker 4: how athletes might report harms, and so there certainly is

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Speaker 4: a pathway, a reporting pathway there. However, what our athletes,

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Speaker 4: the athletes who took part in this survey were telling

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Speaker 4: us was even if they did report so, whether it

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Speaker 4: was through a safety or if their sports organization had

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Speaker 4: an integrity unit, that was another place where they could

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Speaker 4: report or perhaps even reporting it to someone like a

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Speaker 4: coach or a welfare officer in the hope that they

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Speaker 4: would then be able to sort of escalate it or

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Speaker 4: bring it to the right channels.

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Speaker 2: Was that.

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Speaker 4: Very little was done, so they would be have to

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Speaker 4: be quite vulnerable in coming forward in the first place,

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Speaker 4: because when you do, you can often be labeled as

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Speaker 4: a troublemaker or it's all in your head, or toughen

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Speaker 4: up princess, or all of those kinds of things, which

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Speaker 4: really put the onus on the individual to just manage it.

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Speaker 4: So coming forward in that kind of environment, I think

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Speaker 4: he's a very vulnerable and brave thing to do. And

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Speaker 4: then to see little action to change things can feel

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Speaker 4: enormously frustrating, and so a lack of accountability around what

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Speaker 4: is occurring I think is a key piece here. We did, however,

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Speaker 4: have some respondents say, for instance, that they worked with

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Speaker 4: the police and felt that their mechanisms for accountability and

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Speaker 4: reporting and explaining the process at every step was very helpful,

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Speaker 4: So that tells us something.

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Speaker 2: We also had.

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Speaker 4: Respondents identify that sometimes they didn't feel safe reporting for

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Speaker 4: those very reasons I've explained, because they feared retribution in

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Speaker 4: some way, that they would be targeted by a coach

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Speaker 4: or the club would see them as a troublemaker, and

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Speaker 4: that might impact their capacity to participate or put them

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Speaker 4: in a poor standing. But also, particularly for participants from

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Speaker 4: culturally and racially marginalized backgrounds, reporting to authorities has historically

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Speaker 4: not been very safe for them, particularly in a culture

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Speaker 4: where brown bodies are policed and scrutinized, so they feared

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Speaker 4: further surveillance or judgment for doing that, And so often

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Speaker 4: those formal reporting mechanisms aren't safe for women, athletes of

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Speaker 4: color or queer women, and so there are of several

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Speaker 4: kinds of blockers I think that were impacting the reporting

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Speaker 4: experience for different types of women athletes, and I.

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Speaker 1: Think we can tell from what you've touched it's not

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Speaker 1: good enough where it sits right, like the reporting pathways

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Speaker 1: are not up to scratch, and when people do report it,

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Speaker 1: as you've said, it's not the way that it's handled

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Speaker 1: does not necessarily make the athlete feel safe and validated.

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Speaker 1: So there's some recommendations as part of this research that

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Speaker 1: you've come away with, so therefore about advancing understanding, improving reporting,

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Speaker 1: developing supports, and fostering safety. Caitlin, can you touch on

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Speaker 1: the piece about advancing understanding as a recommendation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So the way that we've thought about this

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Speaker 3: comes out of the work I've done in the other

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Speaker 3: two contexts in terms of media and politics, talking about

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Speaker 3: a whole of organization approach. So this isn't something that

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Speaker 3: just is the responsibility of the integrity unit or the

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Speaker 3: athletes or the coach or the well being officer. It's everybody.

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Speaker 3: Everybody takes some responsibility in the organization for responding to

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Speaker 3: acknowledging and seeing that this is an issue that affects

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Speaker 3: a whole range of people in a whole range of

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Speaker 3: different ways that it isn't just the really violent, abusive

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Speaker 3: content that is getting to people. It's also like the

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Speaker 3: call coming from inside the house, you know. It's things

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Speaker 3: like being excluded from things, feeling like you're having your

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Speaker 3: opportunities limited because you're not either taken seriously or you're

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Speaker 3: not You're just not considered as being part of a club.

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Speaker 3: You're not considered as being part of that kind of community.

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Speaker 3: You're seen as being maybe external to it or something.

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Speaker 3: And so that whole of organization approach and about advancing

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Speaker 3: understanding means seeing the sort of the range of ways

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Speaker 3: that this is being doled out to people. Basically that

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Speaker 3: there's it doesn't look like just what you think it

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Speaker 3: looks like. It actually looks like a whole range of

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Speaker 3: different things that impact different people in different ways. And

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Speaker 3: so the whole of organization approach involves everybody taking responsibility

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Speaker 3: for addressing gendered online harm, and it kind of rests

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Speaker 3: on like strengthening the organizational understanding about what that online

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Speaker 3: harm looks like. So you're not so you're looking at

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Speaker 3: you looking at the range. You're looking at the different

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Speaker 3: forms that that can take and expanding the organizational focus

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Speaker 3: so it doesn't just fall on athletes to have to

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Speaker 3: come forward with incidents or to have to make reports.

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Speaker 3: It can be somebody saying, you know, I noticed that

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Speaker 3: this happened, and that is kind of happening. Those informal

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Speaker 3: chats are happening. But if it's only if that's the

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Speaker 3: only thing that is happening, that's just not good enough

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Speaker 3: because there will be a whole range of people in

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Speaker 3: those rooms who for whatever reason can't talk about what's

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Speaker 3: happening to them. And so it's up to the institution,

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Speaker 3: and it's that sort of duty of care of the

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Speaker 3: organization to take care of their employees, to take care

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Speaker 3: of their athletes, because not all of these places are professionalized,

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Speaker 3: for instance, so they may not be getting paid, so

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Speaker 3: it's kind of a quasi workplace in some ways. So

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Speaker 3: it's this kind of there is a duty of care,

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Speaker 3: and that goes well beyond just when athletes are competing.

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Speaker 3: It also is things. It also is when they're not,

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Speaker 3: when they're not kind of in the club where they're

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Speaker 3: not in the on the field, it's outside of that

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Speaker 3: that it sort of expands that focus a little bit

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Speaker 3: a lot.

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Speaker 1: I'd say there's some information included around what future research

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Speaker 1: should look like. And there was a line that I

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Speaker 1: just it resonated with me a lot about assessing the

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Speaker 1: impacts of witnessing on those engaged with women's sport in

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Speaker 1: digital settings, and I spoke to you both off earlier

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Speaker 1: about the fact that I've experienced this as the online

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Speaker 1: harm as a female athlete myself, but also in running

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Speaker 1: the Female Athlete Project and my team who are involved

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Speaker 1: in that. It feels so relentless so often, and it's

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Speaker 1: at times exhausting, and I haven't necessarily had interactions with

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Speaker 1: an individual person that I've potentially blocked, and it's been

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Speaker 1: a really relentless approach from one person. Sometimes I just

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Speaker 1: get so overwhelmed by the volume and I almost don't

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Speaker 1: even have the capacity and resources to go through and

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Speaker 1: delete and block. And I've put the keywords in to

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Speaker 1: try and prevent certain comments and messages, but it's just

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Speaker 1: seeing that it does. It takes a really big toll.

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Speaker 1: And so I think it's interesting and I might come

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Speaker 1: to you on this one, Kim, about what future research

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Speaker 1: in this space could look like to look at it

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Speaker 1: more broadly, not just the athletes, but women involved in coaching, leadership, officiating, officiating.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it was a really key area of this

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Speaker 1: discussion too.

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Speaker 3: I wrote my master's thesis on that's.

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Speaker 1: So I can talk Okay, Well, Kaylyn just said, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you could hear that in the microphone

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Speaker 1: that she wrote her master's thesis in this so please

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Speaker 1: to go.

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Speaker 3: This is what I wrote about, Like I did my

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Speaker 3: master's thesis about like ah an embarrassing number of years ago,

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Speaker 3: and I looked at the effects of witnessing anti feminist

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Speaker 3: harassment on like ordinary women online, and it was about

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Speaker 3: the way that it was affecting them and all of

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Speaker 3: the things that you just said, exhausted, no resources, overwhelming,

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Speaker 3: that was It's a trauma response, like we are being

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Speaker 3: constantly traumatized by these little devices in our pockets, and

439
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 3: the expectation is that we just have to keep going.

440
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 3: And there is there is much more significant reform I

441
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 3: think that needs to happen. But the fact is that

442
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 3: this is something that we've seen. This isn't kind of

443
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: this isn't new information. Really, this is actually something that

444
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 3: we've been seeing for almost well ever a day in

445
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 3: terms of the impacts of witnessing online abuse. It isn't

446
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: just about experiencing, it's also what it's also what happens

447
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 3: when you're when you're observing it. And so future research

448
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 3: I think would be it would be interesting to look

449
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 3: at the impacts. But I also think that there's a

450
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 3: huge amount that can be done in terms of thinking

451
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 3: about the Yeah, the different parts of the organization that

452
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 3: might have perspectives, things that they might be able to

453
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 3: do differently. And so I'm going to throw to Kim

454
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 3: now to talk about that.

455
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think your your point about how deep does

456
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 4: this problem go when we're talking about women in sport,

457
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 4: it just goes so far beyond athletes. So our study

458
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 4: was was limited to elite and professional athletes in Australia.

459
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 4: But if you a woman who works in the sport made,

460
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 4: if you're a woman as a coach, if you're a

461
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 4: woman who holds a leadership role, you will be subject

462
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 4: to this kind of vitriol because you have in some

463
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 4: ways transcended or moved in, you know, beyond what is

464
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 4: expected of you, which is, you know, to take up

465
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 4: space in what has traditionally been a male space. And

466
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 4: that is troubling for a lot of people, and they

467
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 4: want to let you know that you don't belong so

468
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 4: for me, you know, I think the bigger piece here

469
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 4: is that we need to think seriously about how these

470
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 4: kinds of social media interactions that a hostile towards women

471
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 4: are actually ways of shutting down women's voices in public spaces.

472
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 4: We found that our respondents, after experiencing online harassment, some

473
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 4: would step away from social media, or they'd take a break,

474
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 4: or they would shut down accounts. They had to find

475
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 4: strategies to deal with precisely what you were talking about,

476
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 4: the overwhelm and the hatred and essentially or they would

477
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 4: just not say anything that they felt could be controversial.

478
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 4: So again, it's really about surveilling and policing women's voices,

479
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 4: and particularly in sport. When you were a woman who

480
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 4: was being harassed, and one of our respondents talked about

481
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 4: this as a queer woman, she felt she couldn't just

482
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 4: be a bystander to people who were saying homophobic things.

483
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 4: She said, I have to speak out. It's actually my duty,

484
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 4: even though it comes at a cost to me, because

485
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,239
Speaker 4: if I'm silent, then I say this is allowable. And

486
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 4: what was frustrating for her is that the response from

487
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 4: her club was say nothing, do nothing, And so women

488
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 4: athletes get stuck in this bind where their voices are

489
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 4: silenced on social media and they are expected just to

490
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 4: let it happen because the kind of I guess the

491
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 4: education is, try not to provoke, try to minimize conflict,

492
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 4: try to be just be a nice, compliant woman, and

493
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 4: you know, and so and so we reproduce the status quote,

494
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 4: don't we? And so these are I guess some of

495
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 4: the more complex things which we found our athletes were coming,

496
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 4: you know, coming across and having to grapple with.

497
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, it's it's a lot to process, isn't it,

498
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: because it's just it is.

499
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: Sadly, it's so prevalent.

500
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 4: One of the things that we that we found was

501
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 4: that the stuff that was really getting two women were

502
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,719
Speaker 4: things like people sending them direct messages. So you're not

503
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 4: seeing that in the public eye, but it's really corrosive

504
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 4: because it's and things like eyes asking them for dates

505
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 4: or even interrogating them about you know, their times or

506
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 4: you know, their perform performance figures. And they felt like,

507
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 4: who are you You don't know me, who are you

508
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 4: to demand demand my attention? So that felt like a

509
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 4: real breach, and that kind of stuff impacts their well

510
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 4: being and things like being misrepresented by their own clubs

511
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 4: on social media, so that again you don't know where

512
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 4: do you go with that. You know that sort of

513
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 4: doesn't fall under the banner of online cyber hat, but

514
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 4: it's a form of you know that it's these digital

515
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 4: channels are harming women's feelings of well being. And I

516
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 4: guess the other key thing is the fact that you

517
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 4: know the stats around the impact, like the percentages of

518
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 4: women that are saying this is actually impacting my performance

519
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 4: as an athlete, and the percentage that are saying this

520
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 4: is impacting my sponsorship and economic opportunities and the broad

521
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 4: well being, Like that blows my mind. It's actually that

522
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 4: you know that it's that damaging. One of the key

523
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 4: findings from the project was just the significant impact that

524
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 4: this online harm was having on athletes. The figures were

525
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 4: really eye opening. We were finding that gendered online harm

526
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 4: was having really notable impacts on athletes individual well being,

527
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 4: and we had eighty five percent of athletes saying that

528
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 4: it affected their well being. So coming at witnessing and

529
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 4: experiencing this harm was actually harmful to them. But I

530
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 4: think also surprisingly and I think this is one that

531
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 4: might draw the attention of sports clubs is that seventy

532
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 4: one percent were saying that actually has an impact on

533
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 4: their athletic performance, so on what's happening on field. So again,

534
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 4: I think if we ignore this, what we're doing is

535
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 4: undermining all the good work to get at aletes to

536
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 4: peak condition. And you can do that through training and

537
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 4: nutrition and this and that and the other. But if

538
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 4: we're not looking after them in these online spaces, it's

539
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 4: going to have an impact. And eighty one percent said

540
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 4: that it was actually affecting their employment, sponsorship, and economic opportunities.

541
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 4: So these are huge numbers. I think that we.

542
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: Can't ignore those kinds of.

543
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 4: Those those figures and what women are telling and the

544
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 4: impact that the athletes are telling us this is having

545
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 4: on them.

546
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: That seventy one percent that you touched on is it's

547
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: such an interesting thing. I've kind of chatted about it before,

548
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: but not in a lot of detail, this feeling of

549
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: as a female athlete.

550
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 2: And I think that statistic confirms that.

551
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: I'm not alone in feeling like this, That I when

552
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: I perform and play, if I were to make a mistake,

553
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: that it's almost representing the whole of women's sport, or

554
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: the whole of women's football, and that it opens up

555
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: this doorway for criticism that saying that, oh, women shouldn't

556
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: be playing football. Look at that mistake you just made.

557
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 1: Look at that goal you just miss that a man

558
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: would have made easily.

559
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really does impact what's happening on the field

560
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 4: because you're aware of the kinds of vitriol that's going

561
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 4: to come from it.

562
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 2: And that's a.

563
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 4: Really hard place to be where you feel, again you're

564
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 4: being scrutinized and scrutinized and surveiled. And you know, there's

565
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 4: been arguments that men too experience this kind of scrutiny,

566
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 4: but we need to understand that within the context of

567
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 4: women's sport, where women are seen as less than whose

568
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 4: athleticism and skill is always under question, it's going to

569
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 4: land so differently, and it's so much harder to brush

570
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 4: it off. And as you said, Chloe, you feel responsible.

571
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 4: You actually feel like you are letting the whole of

572
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 4: woman kind down if you actually make a mistake, which

573
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 4: is just what humans do and athletes do all the time.

574
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 4: So the weight of it carries really differently, and I

575
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 4: think we need to recognize that rather than simply say

576
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 4: there's an equivalence between men and women experiencing that, because

577
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 4: there's not. Thank you so much both of you for

578
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 4: your time in coming to discuss this, and not only that,

579
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 4: but for your time to investigate this area further.

580
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 1: I know just while you were both talking, I was

581
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 1: thinking a lot about a lot of my teammates who

582
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: I imagine we all experience very similar things and don't

583
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: often discuss it. We all know that it happens, but

584
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: it's just this mountain that seems too big to climb

585
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: and something that doesn't feel like it has solutions. So

586
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: I think it's such incredible work. So thank you both

587
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: so much for your contribution in this space.

588
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 4: Thanks for having us, Thank you.

589
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.

590
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: If you got something out of this episode, I would

591
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: absolutely love it if you could send it on to

592
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: one person who you think might enjoy it. Otherwise, subscribe,

593
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: give us a review, and make sure you follow us

594
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: on Instagram at the Female Athlete Project.

595
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:00,719
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