Speaker 1: Ordinarily Speaking, I've played ninety six Test matches. I made
Speaker 1: my debut eighty one times Tason time.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Ordinarily Speaking, a podcast that celebrates
Speaker 2: resilience in sport. My name is Narrowly Meadows, and my
Speaker 2: guest this episode is Australian Test bowler Nathan Lyon the Goat.
Speaker 2: As he's affectionately called Australia's greatest offspinner of all time.
Speaker 2: The catch cry at nice Gary has become synonymous with
Speaker 2: Ozzie cricket. That nickname Gary after Ozzie rules Great Gary Lyon.
Speaker 2: Despite the cult figure status and the three hundred and
Speaker 2: ninety wickets in ninety six Tests, the truth is Nathan
Speaker 2: Lyon has played his career riddled with doubt. The kid
Speaker 2: from country New South Wales is now a Test veteran
Speaker 2: who has played through one of the most tumultuous periods
Speaker 2: in Ossie cricket. Nathan isn't ordinarily one to show his
Speaker 2: emotional side, but as he reflects, he says he's emerged
Speaker 2: a better player and Dad, I hope you enjoy the chat.
Speaker 1: Again.
Speaker 2: Oh Nat, thanks for spending some time with me.
Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2: You say that with two big a grin on your face.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what that means. You made your debout
Speaker 2: way back in twenty eleven. Can you tell me how
Speaker 2: that felt? As far as a testaboot? Can you tell
Speaker 2: me how that felt at the time, because you were
Speaker 2: coming after quite an era of Australian cricket.
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously a pretty long time ago now, I remember
Speaker 1: it pretty clearly. Obviously, well pretty well burst on the
Speaker 1: onto the scene, throughout the through the Big Bash, playing
Speaker 1: for South Australia, then only four Shield Games to South Australia,
Speaker 1: then into an Australian Ray Tour. Then suddenly I was
Speaker 1: picked to go to to Sri Lanka on the Test
Speaker 1: Tour and heading over there with with some photos of
Speaker 1: these fellows on my wall as a kid, not the
Speaker 1: Ponting's that Clark's had and the Johnson these guys, so
Speaker 1: didn't really know anyone but Trent Copeland. So it was
Speaker 1: pretty it's pretty nerve nerve wracking, I dare say, when
Speaker 1: you get to Colombo, open up the left and out
Speaker 1: walks Fricky Ponting, Brad Hadden and Michael Clark and you
Speaker 1: got made on your new teammate type thing. So it
Speaker 1: was pretty special. But then for myke Cussy to take
Speaker 1: under his wing on that tour was unbelievable. But going
Speaker 1: to my de bow and two days before the game
Speaker 1: Greek Chapel, Michael Clarke called me into the change room
Speaker 1: from training. All the way into the goal change rooms,
Speaker 1: didn't really know what to expect. They both sat me
Speaker 1: down and they said that you're going to play. You're
Speaker 1: going to make your test aboo. We're on the only
Speaker 1: one spinner your it, so good luck and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: And I was pretty taken back by that, and I
Speaker 1: just remembered get my phone back at the hotel and
Speaker 1: calling dad, and I would have been about lunchtime here
Speaker 1: in Australia and called Dad and I said Dad, I'm
Speaker 1: going to make my test aboo and Dad just goes, oh,
Speaker 1: that's good, least you'll play one game, then hung up
Speaker 1: the phone. So I've since figured out that Dad didn't
Speaker 1: really know what to say because you would get too emotional.
Speaker 1: So yeah, they said I was a good start, and
Speaker 1: Dad was just pretty happy I was going to play
Speaker 1: one game and get a track suit. So so yeah,
Speaker 1: then the rest is history.
Speaker 2: I guess that tells me a little bit about your family,
Speaker 2: and i've met your brother Brendan, who's been such an
Speaker 2: important part in your career. Tell me a bit about
Speaker 2: growing up and what your family was like and how
Speaker 2: they've influenced the way that you are.
Speaker 1: Obviously, Mum and dad's still out and young in the
Speaker 1: country in your South Whiles where I grew up, so
Speaker 1: they're pretty humble country people where they won't let my
Speaker 1: feet leave the ground. Mum's always telling me to keep
Speaker 1: my head down and keep my feet on the ground,
Speaker 1: you know, one special type thing. So they're pretty humble
Speaker 1: type people. But my childhood was with my older brother,
Speaker 1: it was soccer in the winter. Then there was just
Speaker 1: cricket throughout the summer, and Mum and Dad were very
Speaker 1: fortunate enough to have those two as my parents or
Speaker 1: our parents, to drive us all around New South Whiles
Speaker 1: playing cricket, playing sport, to go three hours one way
Speaker 1: just for a game cricket, then turn around and do
Speaker 1: that then for Mum and Dad to back up and
Speaker 1: go to work the next day. It was pretty special
Speaker 1: when you look back at it.
Speaker 2: So you came from nowhere, as you said, you were
Speaker 2: a groundsman a I know you get sick of talking
Speaker 2: about this story. But you had an orthodox sort of
Speaker 2: upbringing into cricket, So how did that affect your self belief?
Speaker 1: Well, I always dreamt of playing cricket for Australia, even
Speaker 1: when I was working at manic Rowl. Then when I
Speaker 1: moved down to Adelaide over when I was rolling and
Speaker 1: watching the South Australian Redbacks train, I always dreamt that
Speaker 1: I was good enough to play that cricket, or kind
Speaker 1: of hoped I was good enough to play that cricket.
Speaker 1: I didn't really get that belief that I could actually
Speaker 1: achieve it until I did a net bowling session against
Speaker 1: the Australian side and the English side in the twenty
Speaker 1: ten Ashes. I think when I was at Adelaide on
Speaker 1: the ground stuff, my workday was actually bowling to the
Speaker 1: nets for about three and a half hours, which was unbelievable,
Speaker 1: about two hours to the Australians an hour and to
Speaker 1: the English guy. So that was pretty special. And I
Speaker 1: didn't really have that belief that maybe I could do
Speaker 1: it until bold to Ponting for about forty minutes and
Speaker 1: to Mike cassiy on Mike Wall. These guys aren't whacked
Speaker 1: me out of the ground here the net might be
Speaker 1: able to achieve it if I put my head down
Speaker 1: and you never know what's around the corner type things.
Speaker 1: So that was probably one moment in the back of
Speaker 1: my head that stands out that that my belief was
Speaker 1: there if I could achieve it.
Speaker 2: So when you then make it to the top level,
Speaker 2: did you feel did you fit in straight away? Or
Speaker 2: how did you He just looked at me like you're
Speaker 2: kidding me.
Speaker 1: A yeah, I definitely didn't feel like I fitted in.
Speaker 1: When you're looking around these guys and the careers that
Speaker 1: these guys have had and what they've achieved, it's pretty
Speaker 1: remarkable then to be suddenly their teammate in the same
Speaker 1: change rooms, in the meetings trying to learn about the game.
Speaker 1: I think if you talk to good mate Mitchell Stark,
Speaker 1: he thinks I've played ninety six Test matches now and
Speaker 1: he reckons I've probably played made my debut about eighty
Speaker 1: five times. So it took it took me a long
Speaker 1: time to feel part of the side. I guess not
Speaker 1: part of the side, but probably if I fit it
Speaker 1: in in my role within the Australian Cricket change room,
Speaker 1: So it's probably it took me a little while because
Speaker 1: coming out of the Australian cricket era before Shame Warn,
Speaker 1: then suddenly a spinner comes into the field, then you go, okay,
Speaker 1: well the whole public, why can't you do what Shame
Speaker 1: Warn has been doing for the last eight to ten years.
Speaker 1: So it took me a little while to get out
Speaker 1: of his shaddle shadow, And to be honest, I'm probably
Speaker 1: still in his shadow. Ninety six Test matches, three hundred
Speaker 1: and ninety Test work wickets into it, Probably still in
Speaker 1: his shadow a little bit, but that's just your mind.
Speaker 1: You get in my mind and probably the part of
Speaker 1: Australian public as well, and that's probably just down to
Speaker 1: who Shame Warn is and what he achieved in the game.
Speaker 1: So that's one of those things where I had to
Speaker 1: be confident in my own skill set at first class
Speaker 1: level to Test match level to perform, and I think
Speaker 1: Chuck Berry, Darren Berry, my first state coach, he had
Speaker 1: a lot to do with that. He was able to
Speaker 1: build that confidence in me to get my confidence in
Speaker 1: my stock break stock off break to go out there
Speaker 1: and perform under pressure. And I think he's got a
Speaker 1: lot of credit to take for that. And I look
Speaker 1: at my career right now, I think over the last
Speaker 1: three to four years, I think my cricket's gone to
Speaker 1: a couple of new levels. And I think that's because
Speaker 1: I've got that self belief and stop trying to prove
Speaker 1: to the whole world, and I just wanted to prove
Speaker 1: to myself how good I could be. And I've still
Speaker 1: still trying to strive to get better at each and
Speaker 1: every day. I still feel like I've got a lot
Speaker 1: of improvement. I still think there's a lot of depth
Speaker 1: that I can get to, and I still believe that
Speaker 1: I can get a lot better than what I am
Speaker 1: right now. So I think from three years ago or
Speaker 1: three to four years ago to now is totally different. Players.
Speaker 2: What changed for you?
Speaker 1: I think the penny dropped for me that I don't
Speaker 1: need to prove to everyone out in the world that
Speaker 1: I deserve to be be here. I wanted to prove
Speaker 1: to myself that I deserve to be here, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to play at this level and I want to
Speaker 1: be the best I can possibly be. So I think
Speaker 1: the penny really dropped within myself to be honest and
Speaker 1: understanding that my stock boy is the best in the world,
Speaker 1: and I believe it is in the best in the
Speaker 1: world and that I can get anyone out no matter
Speaker 1: what situation we're in.
Speaker 2: So what made it drop? Was there a moment?
Speaker 1: I think there's a few different things. I think life
Speaker 1: away from cricket improved. I think my family, my partner,
Speaker 1: m I think or they've all been absolutely incredible with
Speaker 1: the support. Because one thing I do know, when you're
Speaker 1: in a hotel room and you get dropped, when you're
Speaker 1: in India or in England, you feel like the world's
Speaker 1: closing closing down, and you wonder, well, my career has done,
Speaker 1: what can I do? How do I feel? And what's normal.
Speaker 1: It's pretty hard to sit here and say I understand
Speaker 1: or you should feel like this, because everyone's different. I
Speaker 1: felt like my career was done as soon as I
Speaker 1: got dropped. But then I had a chat to Brad
Speaker 1: Hadden and he said, well, you need to figure out
Speaker 1: why you got dropped and asked those questions and you
Speaker 1: can then you can hold the coach. As a captain,
Speaker 1: the selector's accountable. So since then I've been up to
Speaker 1: ask the right questions to get the answers that I
Speaker 1: need to make me go out and get better each
Speaker 1: and every day. If that makes sense.
Speaker 2: It does make sense. It's it's interesting to me because
Speaker 2: I've covered a lot of cricket and a lot of
Speaker 2: cricket of you playing it, and you spoke about Mike
Speaker 2: Hussey before. We would often chat about we couldn't understand
Speaker 2: why you because there was so much chopping and changing
Speaker 2: throughout the Test team and you were often pretty much
Speaker 2: close to the only constant in that team. So what
Speaker 2: was it in your mind that was was making you
Speaker 2: believe the doubt instead of the positives.
Speaker 1: Well, I hate the word comfortable. I never wanted to
Speaker 1: feel like I was comfortable in the Australian Australian setup
Speaker 1: because in my eyes, as soon as you feel comfortable,
Speaker 1: the quicker will get taken away from you. Then you're
Speaker 1: back to the drawing board. So I wanted wanted it
Speaker 1: so much. I wanted to play cricket. It's my dream
Speaker 1: and it's still my goal to go out and play
Speaker 1: as many Test matches as I can for Australia and
Speaker 1: making sure that I'm playing my role to win games.
Speaker 1: So it's one of those one of those things where
Speaker 1: I didn't want to get too far ahead of myself.
Speaker 1: I wanted to stay try and stay in the present
Speaker 1: as well, without losing myself belief and not letting my
Speaker 1: belief go too far. It's about, in my eyes, having
Speaker 1: a balance between your ego being up here and your
Speaker 1: fear of failing down here, and trying to have a
Speaker 1: steady balance there. We're not getting too far, but not
Speaker 1: being afraid to fail. I think a lot of people,
Speaker 1: a lot of professional players, may have a fear of
Speaker 1: failing because they're not sure what the unknown is. But
Speaker 1: if you can step out of that and I can't
Speaker 1: realize you are going to fail every now and then,
Speaker 1: then but how can I learn? How can I get
Speaker 1: better from that experience? So next time when I come
Speaker 1: under pressure in that same scenario, I'll be better off
Speaker 1: for it, and hopefully I'll come out in the right end.
Speaker 2: How did it feel in those real moments of doubt
Speaker 2: for you?
Speaker 1: I just felt like I was questioning myself a lot.
Speaker 1: And you go back to my hotel room and I
Speaker 1: asked myself, Am I good enough? Am I good enough?
Speaker 1: And then I was actually talking to I think it
Speaker 1: was Michael or our sports psych about watching some unbelievable
Speaker 1: moments that you've been a part of, or some unbelievable
Speaker 1: balls that you bold and going Actually it sounds weird,
Speaker 1: but going back and sitting on YouTube and actually watching
Speaker 1: yourself bold and getting that feeling back of howls. Do
Speaker 1: you watch the India Test mate in.
Speaker 2: Adelaide Adelaide twenty fourteen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that one's a good one. But there's there's, there's
Speaker 1: a couple. So thanks for all the people in YouTube.
Speaker 2: To compile them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they do a good job for them. But so
Speaker 1: it sounds weird to go back and watch that. But
Speaker 1: even today or if I know I've got a big day,
Speaker 1: whether that's Shield cricket, BBL or Test cricket, whatever it
Speaker 1: may be, I'll tend to find myself sitting on my
Speaker 1: bed watching some highlights to get that feeling. So I
Speaker 1: know how to replicate that feeling. So I know it
Speaker 1: drives from family nuts, and I know it drives my
Speaker 1: Emma and my two girls half of a Miller absolutely nuts.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to watch you again, but
Speaker 1: we have to get get through it when I've got
Speaker 1: a game coming up. So it's a little bit weird.
Speaker 1: How often do you do this whenever required? It's a
Speaker 1: bit weird, but it works. It works. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to get away from it. I need a few more uploads.
Speaker 2: It kills, you know, two beds with one stone. Get
Speaker 2: the uploids up and get the confidence up exactly. So
Speaker 2: when because we've spoken during Test matches before, how anxious
Speaker 2: do you get when you play a Test match?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm pretty I'm sure. I think I'm getting better,
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty anxious. And that's It's not because I'm
Speaker 1: scared of failing or scared of getting hurt if I'm
Speaker 1: going out the bat. It's because I care, because I
Speaker 1: care about my mate's doing well. And I've always said
Speaker 1: throughout my career I'd much rather see Mitchell Stark, Josh
Speaker 1: Hazelwood pack comings these guys go out and take five
Speaker 1: wickets rather than me personally go out and take five wickets,
Speaker 1: because if I can sit down and have a beer
Speaker 1: with them at the end of the day and see
Speaker 1: the joy in their face, and it means a world
Speaker 1: to me. And knowing that I've also had a fortunate
Speaker 1: role to play, whether that's bowling partnerships or even if
Speaker 1: I'm batting with with the tail or, batting with Steve
Speaker 1: Smith to bring his one hundred up at edge Baston.
Speaker 1: But it's just because I care, So I'll get nervous
Speaker 1: and anxious because I care because I want to see
Speaker 1: my mates so well and I want to win games
Speaker 1: of cricket for Australia.
Speaker 2: Do you have problems sleeping?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I've had edge Baston Test match when I felt
Speaker 1: like the pressure was on me to win the game
Speaker 1: of cricket for Australia and the first Test of the
Speaker 1: Ashes and just gone and couldn't sleep. So I had
Speaker 1: to google rain on a tin roof to take me
Speaker 1: back to my country days. There's nothing better than rain
Speaker 1: on a tin roof that will put me to sleep
Speaker 1: within minutes. So I'm luck enough. I put that on
Speaker 1: for about eight hours and got a good night's sleep
Speaker 1: and went out and won the game. It was good.
Speaker 2: Headingly, How bad was the anxiety for you in that
Speaker 2: one before the final day when everything was on the line.
Speaker 1: It wasn't so bad during the game. There was more
Speaker 1: the aftermath. I've never been in a change room like
Speaker 1: that before, and with me missing a runout, I could
Speaker 1: have gone from villain to hero within side three point
Speaker 1: two seconds to bowl in hitting Stokes on the pad
Speaker 1: and then the whole everything. It was just everything we
Speaker 1: burnt the review and over before we dropped catches. We just,
Speaker 1: I know, it was a weird feeling through that whole
Speaker 1: day where you're so close but you were a few
Speaker 1: of us started getting a bit anxious and a bit nervous,
Speaker 1: and because we felt like the ashes were we're in
Speaker 1: our reach, if that makes sense, We understood stood the
Speaker 1: how big a game it was. Then down to that
Speaker 1: last couple of overs and Ben Stokes was play having
Speaker 1: one of those days where everything seemed to hit was
Speaker 1: either going for boundary six or it was leaning in
Speaker 1: the gap. Was just unbelievable, and the crowd at Heavenly
Speaker 1: was pretty pretty incredible. But then to miss a runout.
Speaker 2: So tell me in that moment how that feels.
Speaker 1: I was, I was guarded. I felt like I dropped
Speaker 1: the ashes. I was guarded, and then but I knew
Speaker 1: I had to pick myself up within a couple of
Speaker 1: seconds to come and bowl again, because there's still that
Speaker 1: old chance that I could take a wicket, and I
Speaker 1: had that belief that I could could take a wicket,
Speaker 1: but it was just one of those things and I
Speaker 1: look back at it now and after being up to
Speaker 1: retain the ashes, which has been one of my biggest goals,
Speaker 1: It's it's pretty pretty special. But I look back at
Speaker 1: that and I can sit here and happily say that
Speaker 1: I've been part of the best Test match to ever
Speaker 1: be played, even though you lost out, even though I
Speaker 1: lost it. It goes back to having that fear of failing.
Speaker 1: I'm not scared. You've got to be prepared to lose
Speaker 1: a game to win it, especially at Test match cricket.
Speaker 1: I know I'm a better person and I know it'll
Speaker 1: be a better cricketer from that day. Heavenly a lot
Speaker 1: worse things in the world than happening than me just
Speaker 1: dropping a cricket ball and missing a run out. At
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's a game of cricket.
Speaker 1: At least I've got something to talk about the rest
Speaker 1: of my career. Everyone wants to talk with it everywhere
Speaker 1: or go, so it's pretty it's pretty amazing. Made one
Speaker 1: mistake and I think I'm going to be remembered for
Speaker 1: that one mistake.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing for me watching it is I feel
Speaker 2: like what isn't focused on enough is that the very
Speaker 2: next ball you dismiss him. It's only because the reviews
Speaker 2: have been butchered that he's not out. That's it, because
Speaker 2: if you review it, or even if the umpire gives
Speaker 2: it at the time, he's out. So the fact that
Speaker 2: you have this little mess up and then the very
Speaker 2: next ball managed to deliver a wicket under pressure, how
Speaker 2: much did that actually? I know it must have just
Speaker 2: been frustrating at the time because it wasn't given. But
Speaker 2: how much does that actually help you? And how proud
Speaker 2: are you of going you know that I didn't let
Speaker 2: that get to me and the next ball I delivered.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I am proud have been able to step
Speaker 1: back up and in my terms, suck it up and
Speaker 1: get on with the top thing. So, as I said,
Speaker 1: I had that belief that I can get Stokes. Ut
Speaker 1: I've had many battles throughout my career with Stokes. He's
Speaker 1: an exceptional player. But I knew that if I by
Speaker 1: my best ball, I can challenge his defense and hopefully
Speaker 1: make an error. And there was an error may but
Speaker 1: it just wasn't wasn't from me, And unfortunately that happens
Speaker 1: in cricket, and mister Wilson made the right the wrong decision.
Speaker 1: Whatever has happened happened. So it's one of those things
Speaker 1: where if you can learn from the mistakes and get
Speaker 1: better and suck it up and get on with it,
Speaker 1: then we'll be right.
Speaker 2: Do you chat to the umpire after something like that
Speaker 2: after the match is done and dusted.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen mister Wilson for a while.
Speaker 2: Now, would you say something?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll have it. I always talked through to the
Speaker 1: umpires throughout my whole career and the drs. And isn't
Speaker 1: there for umpires decision. It's there for absolute hours of
Speaker 1: decisions and unfortunately we burn it so it's really down
Speaker 1: to Paine.
Speaker 2: Anything to paint.
Speaker 1: He nah, it's one of those things. We're trying to
Speaker 1: get better with the reviews as well. But we went
Speaker 1: on to retain the ashes and that's always been one
Speaker 1: of my goals to stand up at the oval and
Speaker 1: lift up the earn in front of the English crowd.
Speaker 2: What's been the hardest thing for you across your career
Speaker 2: do you think?
Speaker 1: I think probably one of the hardest. The hardest thing
Speaker 1: was throughout my whole career, especially early on, it felt
Speaker 1: like everyone was looking for a new spinner, felt like
Speaker 1: I never really had had the support of some people
Speaker 1: who made it. I think felt like the selectors were
Speaker 1: always looking for Australian League spinner or a spinner to
Speaker 1: come in. But probably the biggest thing and probably the
Speaker 1: hardest thing in my career is actually the media having
Speaker 1: an impact on my parents, because I had many a
Speaker 1: phone calls for mum and mum and dad. And I
Speaker 1: think it probably affects my mum more than more than
Speaker 1: anything because she reads it, then she doesn't want to
Speaker 1: believe it. Then she starts singing about it. Then rather
Speaker 1: than picking the phone phone up and asking me what's happened,
Speaker 1: then she thinks whatever I do, the everyone's opinion of
Speaker 1: my mum more change as well. So I think the
Speaker 1: media has probably been the hardest thing.
Speaker 2: How deeply does it affect her?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, she's copped it a fair bit. So she's
Speaker 1: pretty hard on herself for a thing. A few things
Speaker 1: I don't I don't really know why. I guess she
Speaker 1: takes it to heart everything that Brendan and I do,
Speaker 1: and she's so proud of it, and she just wants us,
Speaker 1: wants us to see us do well, and when when
Speaker 1: things don't go our way, she takes it to heart
Speaker 1: and when it's displayed out in the media, I think
Speaker 1: she doesn't like getting the papers delive it home.
Speaker 2: What's been the worst one for her.
Speaker 1: Obviously the off field incident with me, but there's been
Speaker 1: a couple of on the field incidents, even the ball
Speaker 1: tampering saga. I think they stop getting the papers when
Speaker 1: all that stuff happens, just so they didn't have to
Speaker 1: read it and they could talk to me and find
Speaker 1: out what was going on. But saying that they've been
Speaker 1: our biggest they've been my biggest supporters and it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be where I am now if they weren't here.
Speaker 2: How do something like the ball tampering thing impact a
Speaker 2: person massively?
Speaker 1: I think it gets everyone on different levels throughout, whether
Speaker 1: you're directly involved, whether you weren't involved. I've had many
Speaker 1: conversations with a lot of people outside Cricket Australia and
Speaker 1: then talking to me how much they were hurt through
Speaker 1: the actions of the Australian cricket team, but then having
Speaker 1: the same conversations with the same people and saying how
Speaker 1: proud they are off the back of the last two years.
Speaker 1: I think I think the Australian cricket team now is
Speaker 1: in such a better place and what we were in
Speaker 1: I think we got stuck in living in a bubble.
Speaker 1: Where we are now. Hats off to Tim Payne especially,
Speaker 1: I think he's been absolutely exceptional. And then you throw
Speaker 1: justin Justin Langer's influence and then also the senior players
Speaker 1: as well. I think I think where we are now
Speaker 1: is where the Australian cricket team or the public love
Speaker 1: to see the Australian cricket team. How did it impact you,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's like everyone else. I guess it was
Speaker 1: pretty hard. That period was very hard, but then the
Speaker 1: next twelve months without Steve David and bangers and having
Speaker 1: that cloud over it, so I guess it was pretty hard,
Speaker 1: but it was pretty powerful to be in that Australian
Speaker 1: change room knowing that we're going to make a difference
Speaker 1: and having that belief that we're going to become better
Speaker 1: people and become better creats as well. So it's all
Speaker 1: had our effects. But I think talking on behalf of
Speaker 1: the Australian cricket team, I think we're in such a
Speaker 1: better place now and I think we're all better people
Speaker 1: for it.
Speaker 2: As well, you are a quintessentially country bloke like you
Speaker 2: don't like showing your emotions. You know, you are all
Speaker 2: about community. You try and give back. I know you
Speaker 2: try and give back to a lot of people. Do
Speaker 2: you ever find yourself getting emotional?
Speaker 1: Yeah, all the time, all the time, but it's only
Speaker 1: behind closed doors and stuff.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: I think I'm born in the wrong generation. I think
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit old school. It's for me, it's
Speaker 1: more making more about me making sure my mates are
Speaker 1: right than rather than I'm okay, Because if I know
Speaker 1: my mates are okay, they'll they'll drag me along as
Speaker 1: well if I get down. So I've been very fortunate
Speaker 1: enough to be part of probably the best baling attack
Speaker 1: I've ever been a part of it, which is currently
Speaker 1: now with Pat, Josh and Starky. That those especially those three,
Speaker 1: that they're probably my three best mates. But then you
Speaker 1: throw the locks of Sids and Pardo and Nest and
Speaker 1: Birdy these guys in there as well. So I've got
Speaker 1: an unbelievable group around me right now. So if I'm
Speaker 1: struggling mentally or whatnot, I'm more than comfortable and picking
Speaker 1: up the phone to any of those guys and having
Speaker 1: a really good chat. So and I think that only
Speaker 1: helps your friendship and makes that blossom even more.
Speaker 2: Have you gotten better at that over the years, asking
Speaker 2: for help when you need it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I think so You've got to find people
Speaker 1: that you're comfortable to talk to. And I know within man,
Speaker 1: that's it's not that easier to come out and talk
Speaker 1: about your feelings or if you're struggling in certain things.
Speaker 1: But the people we got around the Autralian cricket team.
Speaker 1: But then you look internally the people you got around
Speaker 1: around yourself. It's pretty important to who you've got around
Speaker 1: you and who you believe in and who you trust
Speaker 1: as well. I think trust is a massive thing. But
Speaker 1: I don't think the word care is thrown around enough
Speaker 1: throughout the Australian cricket team. I think I think we
Speaker 1: can get better. I think we can get better at
Speaker 1: caring about each other and making sure that we're heading
Speaker 1: in the right direction.
Speaker 2: When was the last time you cried the girls?
Speaker 1: When I've got the girls, are usually shed a tear.
Speaker 2: Your daughters, Yeah, just just because they're happy, or.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, just because I know I can see me
Speaker 1: and them. I guess so it's pretty pretty cool, and
Speaker 1: that they're at an age now that I'm able to
Speaker 1: have a really good conversation with and have fun with.
Speaker 1: So it's quite quite special having them come up from
Speaker 1: Canberra where they live down there. Every chance I'll get
Speaker 1: to see them. It's it's pretty special.
Speaker 2: Your whole face changes when you talk about your girls.
Speaker 2: It just completely softens.
Speaker 1: It's tough. Yeah, I know. I obviously love them with
Speaker 1: all my heart and I'll do whatever I have to
Speaker 1: do to support and care for those girls. You're right,
Speaker 1: got me, got me? I didn't expect this.
Speaker 2: What gets your emotional right now?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 2: I mean, you've obviously been through a bit on the
Speaker 2: personal front, and we don't need to go into that,
Speaker 2: but through the separation everything is that what's getting you
Speaker 2: emotional now?
Speaker 1: Is yeah? I think so. I think I know what
Speaker 1: I've been through, And when I talk about halperm Millot,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter who I'm talking to about it. In media,
Speaker 1: I seem to shut it off quite quickly, so I
Speaker 1: don't get in situations like this. But with Harpram Miller, obviously,
Speaker 1: they're they're my world, and they're they're my they're my life,
Speaker 1: and what I what I'm doing now is to set
Speaker 1: them up in the future. So that's one of those things.
Speaker 2: I guess, what kind of dad are you.
Speaker 1: Meaning? If no, I try and be a decent role
Speaker 1: model to them, and they're going through an interesting stage
Speaker 1: to ask all their friends are asking if their dad's
Speaker 1: famous and all this stuff. So I'm just telling them
Speaker 1: that that's just someone who plays cricket for work and
Speaker 1: who's just trying to put food on the table for
Speaker 1: them like every other parents, and that we have we
Speaker 1: have fun when when they're around. But yeah, no, they're good,
Speaker 1: and I'm not really sure what top of dad I am.
Speaker 1: I'm just making sure that they're they're having fun and
Speaker 1: they're safe and they're healthy.
Speaker 2: Do they ever drop nass garys all the time?
Speaker 1: All the time? I took them to cricket on the
Speaker 1: sug which was actually special moment. No one else at
Speaker 1: the s C Journals, just me and half and Miller
Speaker 1: out in the middle of the ground and Halper is
Speaker 1: not really in the cricket Miller Miller starting to get
Speaker 1: into cricket and I'm just wanting to play and wanting
Speaker 1: to learn how to bowl and do all that stuff.
Speaker 1: And I think Miller was the one that ran around
Speaker 1: and says, god, dad, this is where everyone was out,
Speaker 1: nice Gary. And so they're well aware of what I do.
Speaker 2: And does it make you embarrassed or do you love it?
Speaker 2: Do you secretly love it?
Speaker 1: No, I'm not sure if I secretly love It's it's
Speaker 1: a little bit different when your daughters start calling you
Speaker 1: from dad to one minute, and then when they want
Speaker 1: something they call you Gary or so it's a little
Speaker 1: bit different to the normal parent. I guess.
Speaker 2: You're listening to ordinarily speaking with Nathan lyon how hard
Speaker 2: is it when because you're away from them so much
Speaker 2: when you're playing cricket? How hard is that? And do
Speaker 2: we do the public ask people that don't understand, do
Speaker 2: we appreciate enough how hard that is?
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think the public do and don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think the public probably understand the depth of
Speaker 1: it as well. And I know my situate personal situation
Speaker 1: is different. So I didn't see Harper Miller for six months.
Speaker 1: That's a bloody long time. The amount of time we're
Speaker 1: away from our families, whether that's your partner, girlfriend's wife, kids,
Speaker 1: mum and dad, whatever it may be, we're away that much.
Speaker 1: And you look at Mitch Dark and Alyssa heally like
Speaker 1: they're married, But I think I spend more time with
Speaker 1: Mitch than what you can. Definitely do it what Alyssa does.
Speaker 1: So it's very it's difficult. But then then on one hand,
Speaker 1: where we understand our careers only lasts a short period
Speaker 1: of time in our life, and I know that throughout
Speaker 1: my career, the sacrifice is that that Emma's doing for me,
Speaker 1: for Mum and Dad, for Brendan, for Harper Miller and
Speaker 1: and everyone else throughout my family and my close friends,
Speaker 1: all their sacrifices, I know that I'll repay them as
Speaker 1: soon as my career is done. They will get tenfold back.
Speaker 2: Is that also part of what comes into your mind
Speaker 2: when you're anxious during a game or sitting in the
Speaker 2: hotel room before a game or after a game of
Speaker 2: you know how much you've given up in order to
Speaker 2: just be there and to get to that point in
Speaker 2: how much those people have given up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does pop in your head. It probably pops
Speaker 1: in your head more when you get dropped. You kind
Speaker 1: of feel like you've let down your coaches that you
Speaker 1: had back home, whether Brandon it's been more documented. He's
Speaker 1: been a big coach in my life. Then you look
Speaker 1: at Dad, he's a big coach and as soon as
Speaker 1: you get dropped, you feel like you're probably letting them down.
Speaker 2: That's a lot to feel like your own professional life
Speaker 2: is letting other people that you care about down.
Speaker 1: That's me though, My biggest fear is letting people down.
Speaker 1: When you look at that Heavenly game when I dropped
Speaker 1: that ball, that's the first thing when I got back
Speaker 1: in that change rooms, probably the first feeling that I
Speaker 1: had is that I'll let everyone else in this room down.
Speaker 1: But I let the whole Australia down as well, So
Speaker 1: it felt like a lot of weight and I was
Speaker 1: pretty gutted after that game, I know. I went into
Speaker 1: a room and had a towel over my head for
Speaker 1: about half an hour. Then we had a chat, Then
Speaker 1: I had a beer in the Chaine room, and we
Speaker 1: got back to my hotel room and just sat in
Speaker 1: the shower for about half an hour. And then it
Speaker 1: wasn't until Emma come and dragged me out of the
Speaker 1: shower and said, put some clothes on, just go down
Speaker 1: and have a beer with the boys downstairs. It's and
Speaker 1: she was brilliant. She says, it's just a game. It's
Speaker 1: just a game. Don't don't put yourself down and don't
Speaker 1: make yourself think that you let down a whole Australia.
Speaker 1: So it's one of those things where I probably care
Speaker 1: about the game too much, but I feel like that's
Speaker 1: one of my strengths.
Speaker 2: Did you cry in the shower afterwards? No?
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure if I if I was, if I
Speaker 1: have tears or what, But I just didn't. I felt numb,
Speaker 1: It felt like, didn't feel like Yeah, I didn't feel
Speaker 1: not like myself. I just felt no. One didn't know
Speaker 1: what to feel like.
Speaker 2: Is that the worst you felt playing cricket? Now, what's
Speaker 2: the worst you felt?
Speaker 1: Phil hears When Phil here has got hit, you soon
Speaker 1: realize that, as I said, we're just playing a game.
Speaker 1: We're very lucky just to play a game. It's just
Speaker 1: a game, cricket. There's so many people in that would
Speaker 1: love to give love to be in our shoes and
Speaker 1: any day of the week. But the worst made in
Speaker 1: the cricket field is when Phil got hit by a
Speaker 1: long way Yeah.
Speaker 2: Do you ever think about that day?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah. You often often come out when you walk
Speaker 1: out onto the SCG or there's certain triggers that that
Speaker 1: will for me personally, that will be set off. And
Speaker 1: I was about ten meters away from Phil when he
Speaker 1: got hit that day, so the memories are obviously pretty fresh.
Speaker 1: And obviously it was a pretty good made of mine,
Speaker 1: an unbelievable teammate as well. So it's one of those
Speaker 1: things where you're not going to let go of that.
Speaker 2: How did you cope with it?
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It was just, uh,
Speaker 1: it was I'm not sure. It was a weird part
Speaker 1: of my life. Miller was born about three weeks before,
Speaker 1: so I had the joy of that of Miller being born,
Speaker 1: but then losing your best mates I was. It was
Speaker 1: pretty It was a pretty hard, hard meal period of
Speaker 1: my life, to be honest. Do you miss him, Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course you do. You miss you miss it, You
Speaker 1: miss certain parts, you miss every part, to be honest.
Speaker 1: But there's been a couple of things that I know
Speaker 1: We've sat around the Australian Cricket Cricket Room change room
Speaker 1: while we're in England, and we I think it was
Speaker 1: about eight of us went around and said something about
Speaker 1: Phil or the last memory about Phil. So it's it's
Speaker 1: pretty moving.
Speaker 2: What's do you want to share your memory of Husey?
Speaker 1: I was just in I was just in the in
Speaker 1: Brad Hadden's room in Dubai and I actually don't know
Speaker 1: if I can say it, but he's coming and he's
Speaker 1: did did I won't say it, but he did did
Speaker 1: a movement in the in the room it had had
Speaker 1: an iron stitches on the bed. Then he just comes
Speaker 1: into his lays on the bed and just watches the
Speaker 1: movie and just carries on like nothing's happened. So it's free. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's pretty.
Speaker 2: Cool, that hole and it comes up a lot in
Speaker 2: these sorts of conversations because it's easily the most impactful
Speaker 2: thing that's happened to this generation of cricketers. Do you
Speaker 2: think we truly appreciate how much of an impact it's
Speaker 2: had on this group of men.
Speaker 1: That's a hard one to answer because everyone's different and everything.
Speaker 1: It impacts everyone totally different from even the people who
Speaker 1: weren't there or weren't involved. It's impacted the whole cricket world.
Speaker 1: So it was pretty special and it just shows how
Speaker 1: special he hughs he was by the just a pure
Speaker 1: impact around the world to have obviously he was always
Speaker 1: going to have Australian team at his funeral, but to
Speaker 1: have the superstarsout Colie and these guys come out for
Speaker 1: his funeral as well, it's pretty pretty amazing. So it
Speaker 1: just shows the quality of person feel was I guess.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned that the highlights that you loved to
Speaker 2: watch was the Adelaide Test, the best Test I've ever
Speaker 2: been at because it was the first one afterwards and
Speaker 2: the emotion that went into it, and then it comes
Speaker 2: down to the final day, eight wickets are required and
Speaker 2: you come in and start making it happen at four
Speaker 2: oh eight pm in Adelaide. What do you remember from
Speaker 2: from that day?
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously it was pretty emotional week and even Boff
Speaker 1: said he wasn't sure if we're all going to be
Speaker 1: able to get up for it, and he was more
Speaker 1: than comfortable with that. And as soon as you went
Speaker 1: out there and you knew that we're going to be okay,
Speaker 1: it felt. It was one of those weird ones where
Speaker 1: walking out that last day, Shane Watson and Brad HadAM
Speaker 1: and were going, don't worry something, We'll give him this game,
Speaker 1: and it was just it was quite amazing when you
Speaker 1: look at it. When I get the breakthrough at four
Speaker 1: o eight, it's just weird obviously on his test number.
Speaker 1: Then do you have the result the way we did it.
Speaker 1: Then there's a pretty amazing photo at the end of
Speaker 1: the game when we're out singing the song and we're
Speaker 1: around the painted numbers on the ground. It's probably one
Speaker 1: of my favorite photos.
Speaker 2: You lead the song as well. Was that one of
Speaker 2: the more special moments for you?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, looking back, I think that is probably up
Speaker 1: there number one. The way the game panned out, and
Speaker 1: obviously the events beforehand, and just the way that was
Speaker 1: probably the best way that I felt that I could
Speaker 1: pay my respects to Phil. And normally I'm in the
Speaker 1: middle of the song, but I actually got out in
Speaker 1: the circle with all the boys, and so it felt
Speaker 1: like Hughes was leading it, so it's a little bit different.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was pretty amazing.
Speaker 2: Did you know it was for eight PM? Because a
Speaker 2: lot of us only realized afterwards that.
Speaker 1: No, I had no idea. It's just I've watched that
Speaker 1: thing about one hundred times.
Speaker 2: What did you think when you realized it happened at
Speaker 2: that moment?
Speaker 1: It was pretty strange. Pretty weird. All the New South
Speaker 1: Wales guys achieved something in that game, which was I know,
Speaker 1: a bit strange, but I've just been part of that
Speaker 1: Australian group that week was incredible.
Speaker 2: For a country boylight you who doesn't believe in a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff like that. Did that make you think,
Speaker 2: hang on, something else is happening here? Ah?
Speaker 1: I don't know. No luck, a bit of luck something
Speaker 1: something happened though, but I'm not sure what happened.
Speaker 2: The song has been really important for you. You got that off, Hussy, Mike, Hussy,
Speaker 2: Why is it so important to you?
Speaker 1: It's probably more important than the captain, to be honest
Speaker 1: with you. When Mike Canada, he said that in his eyes,
Speaker 1: I play the game in the right way and he
Speaker 1: wanted to hand the song to me for that reason.
Speaker 1: So I took a lot out of that and getting
Speaker 1: handed that song and having that honor to be able
Speaker 1: to lead the song, it's one. It's a pretty nerve
Speaker 1: wracking thing. But to be able to go out and
Speaker 1: have that proud moment in your career, when you're able
Speaker 1: to lead a team song, it's it's pretty special.
Speaker 2: So why is it so nerve racking? Because you play
Speaker 2: in front of one hundred thousand people at the MCG. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're in front of you know what is it? The
Speaker 2: support staff and the eleven plus you know whoever else
Speaker 2: is there from the squad? Why and they're all your mates?
Speaker 2: Why is it so nerve racking? Why?
Speaker 1: Because it might be your first and your last and
Speaker 1: you want to make sure that it's bloody fun, it's memorable,
Speaker 1: and it's passionate as well. So that's why I look
Speaker 1: at I want to make sure that yes, there's eleven
Speaker 1: guys who go out there and perform and play, and
Speaker 1: people see that on TV. But people don't see the
Speaker 1: work of the batting coach, the bowling coach, the physios,
Speaker 1: especially the physios, the head coach, whoever it may be.
Speaker 1: That people don't see the work that these guys put in.
Speaker 1: So it also as it allows us as a playing
Speaker 1: group to also recognize that and whether you take the
Speaker 1: pisce or whether you have a bit of fun or
Speaker 1: say some heartfelt memories or mentions or whatnot to certain players,
Speaker 1: that you really have that power to make something incredibly special.
Speaker 1: So it's pretty it's pretty amazing to be a part of.
Speaker 2: You take a lot of this on board because you
Speaker 2: also work with with a lot of disabled people around Australia.
Speaker 2: Why is that so important to you.
Speaker 1: I've always said I wanted to give back to cricket,
Speaker 1: especially for the game that's given me so much, and
Speaker 1: I do believe cricket is a sport for all and
Speaker 1: there's no reason if you do have intellectual disability or
Speaker 1: physical disability, there's no reason why you can't come out
Speaker 1: and play a game. And the National Inclusion Championships Down
Speaker 1: and Geelong are absolutely incredible to be a part of.
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable to see that the passion these guys have
Speaker 1: for the game of cricket, and to make friendships with
Speaker 1: these guys, it's pretty special, to be honest with you,
Speaker 1: and I love being a role model for these guys
Speaker 1: and girls to go out and chase their dreams because
Speaker 1: my story is different. It's not coming through the cricket
Speaker 1: things and not going straight from school into cricket, not
Speaker 1: working a day in your life. I know what it's
Speaker 1: like to go out and work in the workforce, and
Speaker 1: I know that my dream didn't come until a tad later,
Speaker 1: and it looked like it probably looked like my dream
Speaker 1: would never come as well. I want to be able
Speaker 1: to go out there and inspire these young kids to
Speaker 1: chase their dream. And we're very lucky now that Krick
Speaker 1: Australia has got this chance for these guys and girls
Speaker 1: to actually represent their country, represent their state in whatever category,
Speaker 1: whether it's blind, B one, B two or B three
Speaker 1: or intellectual or whatever it may be. They've got the
Speaker 1: opportunity to go out and live their dream. And I
Speaker 1: think that's body and special.
Speaker 2: You give that your personal number to a lot of
Speaker 2: these guys. What sort of messages do you get?
Speaker 1: A lot, a lot, a lot of messages. It comes
Speaker 1: from an amazing, amazing place in their heart and they're truly
Speaker 1: thrilled about it when you send them a message, when
Speaker 1: you see them doing well or just touching bas it's
Speaker 1: pretty it's pretty special to see the replies that you get.
Speaker 1: But when you go down there, they feel like they're
Speaker 1: a bit of a rock star as well. It's pretty
Speaker 1: it's pretty cool that you see their their face, especially
Speaker 1: when you remember the name and gout and say good
Speaker 1: a Michael, if that's that, or whoever it may be.
Speaker 1: It's pretty remarkable just to see the joy in their
Speaker 1: face when when you go there, and to be honest
Speaker 1: with you. And nextually I want to take starkey partner
Speaker 1: these guys if they're willing enough to come down and
Speaker 1: be around these guys, and get these guys into in
Speaker 1: around the Australian Cricket room, because if they're representing Australia,
Speaker 1: they're no different to us, so they should be allowed
Speaker 1: to if they want to come and meet their idols
Speaker 1: and let's do it.
Speaker 2: How do you think you've changed over the years.
Speaker 1: Getting old, losing hair. No, I think I'm more mature
Speaker 1: and understanding the depth of where my game is at
Speaker 1: and how lucky I am to be able to have
Speaker 1: an impact on other people's lives, I guess, and that's
Speaker 1: purely just throughout and throughout cricket. So I'm very grateful
Speaker 1: for what the game's given me.
Speaker 2: You've stopped drinking recently, haven't you.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've done twenty two weeks. It's just why I've
Speaker 1: got my personal stuff sorted and I'm in enjoyed that
Speaker 1: I've been up to be a better person and probably
Speaker 1: a better dat as well. After a test match, I'm
Speaker 1: actually able to get in the car and drive down
Speaker 1: the camera or go get the girls and go and
Speaker 1: do some fun stuff. And so I've enjoyed not going
Speaker 1: out and riding myself off like I probably did for
Speaker 1: probably ninety six test matches. So I've probably eighty nine
Speaker 1: test matches. I've probably probably done that, if I'm being honest,
Speaker 1: And that's from celebrating wins and losses or whatever it
Speaker 1: may be. We're just trying to you sit down and
Speaker 1: have a few beers. And I think a few beers
Speaker 1: probably led to too many beers at some stages. So I
Speaker 1: feel better now. I know I'm in a better place,
Speaker 1: and I enjoy not drinking, not saying I'm more than
Speaker 1: happy to go home now and have a beer with
Speaker 1: or whether I'm celebrating the mate's birthday whatnot. But I mean,
Speaker 1: no need to go out.
Speaker 2: Why did you write yourself off in your words?
Speaker 1: I think I just got carried away the excitement, I guess.
Speaker 1: So winning a Test match probably you feel like you
Speaker 1: conquer a lot.
Speaker 2: Was there also a pressure release as well? Though? Ah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably when you look at it, it probably is.
Speaker 1: It gives you a chance to rewind. And cricket is
Speaker 1: unique and it does go over five days and the
Speaker 1: ups and ups and downs and the flows of the cricket.
Speaker 1: You never know where you're standing. You could be in
Speaker 1: an unbelievable position, then turn around lose it, or go
Speaker 1: from a losing position to win it. So I think
Speaker 1: it's just it is a pressure release from many thoughts.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I feel like I'm in a better position now.
Speaker 2: I've got two more questions for you. It's an obvious one,
Speaker 2: but what does the baggy green represent to you personally?
Speaker 2: With everything that you've just spoken about.
Speaker 1: I think it's everything. I think it's something that I've
Speaker 1: personally strived for. But it's not just me personally. I
Speaker 1: think my brother is also strived for it and he
Speaker 1: will never get one. But I remember sending him a
Speaker 1: message when I got presented my first baggy green. When
Speaker 1: I got my phone back, I said, we did it.
Speaker 1: We finally got our bagg of green. So it's moments
Speaker 1: like that that stands out for me. You look at
Speaker 1: the bagg of green, what it means is it's a
Speaker 1: lot of pride. There's a lot of hard work that
Speaker 1: goes into it. There's a lot of enjoyment and the
Speaker 1: rollercoaster ride that you've been on throughout the whole time,
Speaker 1: so honestly means a world to me. It's something that
Speaker 1: I hold him very close to my heart. I know
Speaker 1: exactly where it is at all times, so that's pretty special.
Speaker 2: And finally, do you feel like you've emerged from Shane
Speaker 2: WARN's shadow.
Speaker 1: I think I'm forming my own cloud, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Shame Warn is always going to be there in my eyes.
Speaker 1: He is the goat. He will always be the greatest
Speaker 1: ever spinner to represent Australia. But I think I'm making
Speaker 1: my own footprints. I'm leaving writing my own story. I
Speaker 1: don't want to. I didn't want to have the same
Speaker 1: story as Shane Warn. I want to have my own
Speaker 1: own career. I ownroaded to ride along. So it's been
Speaker 1: one hell of a ride, but it's not done yet.
Speaker 2: Though I've loved getting to know you over the years,
Speaker 2: I really appreciate you spending some time with us today
Speaker 2: and I can absolutely vouch for the fact that you
Speaker 2: do give as much as back to the community and
Speaker 2: to cricket as what we've spoken about. So thank you
Speaker 2: for having a chat some time. I hope you enjoyed
Speaker 2: this episode of ordinarily speaking. If you like the podcast,
Speaker 2: make sure you follow on Instagram at ordinarily Underscore Speaking
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