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Speaker 1: Lately, I've been doing a lot of resilience workshops, lots

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Speaker 1: of parents worried about their kids resilience. There's one topic

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Speaker 1: that I bring up in that resilience workshop that gets

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Speaker 1: parents one of two things, either very very excited or

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Speaker 1: very very upset, nervous, worried and anxious. The topic is

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Speaker 1: risky play Stay with us, Kylie, you can understand both.

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Speaker 1: Right as soon as I start saying it's good for

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Speaker 1: your children to do things that are risky, you can

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Speaker 1: see why they might hesitate. They might pause and say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but are you.

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Speaker 2: Talking about leaving your kids with some matches and paper. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's what camping is.

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Speaker 2: For climbing the climbing frame on their own.

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Speaker 1: A bit boring. I'd liked more risk than that. Let's

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Speaker 1: speak about climbing frames for a sec. When you were

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Speaker 1: a youngster, back in the olden days before computers BC,

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Speaker 1: what was your favorite piece of playground equipment.

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Speaker 2: It was this massive pine tree in the back of

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Speaker 2: my school playground.

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Speaker 1: Sorry just pause right there. Note I said playground equipment,

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Speaker 1: and you have gone straight out of the playground to

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Speaker 1: the tree. I love that this was not prescripted. You

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Speaker 1: didn't know the question was coming. Tell me more about

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Speaker 1: the pine tree. Why'd you like it so much?

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Speaker 2: It would have been maybe seven stories high, like, it

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Speaker 2: was massive, and it had these beautiful big bows just

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Speaker 2: stretching out, which felt like for Miles as a little kid,

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Speaker 2: and me and my friends would climb up and we

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Speaker 2: would whoa, woh woah, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa.

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Speaker 1: Hang on, you're at school and you're climbing trees. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was allowed.

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Speaker 2: That was allowed.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And we would each claim about and that was our bedroom.

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Speaker 2: And we used to take some pine leaves and pine

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Speaker 2: needles and sweep the floor because there was no grass underneath,

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Speaker 2: that was all dirt. And then we'd use the pine

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Speaker 2: cones and we'd make, you know, different things to eat.

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Speaker 2: Was just so much fun. Like that is honestly, hands

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Speaker 2: down my favorite childhood memory. Justin yes, what was your

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Speaker 2: favorite playground equipment when you were a kid?

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Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for asking. My favorite? I had

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Speaker 1: a couple. Do you remember those? I think that you

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Speaker 1: would call it a merry.

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Speaker 2: Go round, a chuck up spinning thing.

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Speaker 1: Well, it wasn't so much a chuck up thing. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get to that in a sec. It was

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Speaker 1: the thing where you'd get I don't know, five or

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Speaker 1: ten kids sitting on it, and then one person would

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Speaker 1: hold the handrail and just run as fast as you

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Speaker 1: could and spin as fast as you could. And it

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Speaker 1: was just delightful to stand on that thing and push

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Speaker 1: it around in a circle as fast as you could.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone got sick on it, but

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Speaker 1: super sou all the time. So we also had this

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Speaker 1: thing at a park near my house. It was kind

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Speaker 1: of like a little sphere and you could climb into

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Speaker 1: it and there was a handle in the middle that

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Speaker 1: you could spin the handle that was the vomitron.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's disgusting, spin around.

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Speaker 1: And also at the park where near where I grew

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Speaker 1: up in Niagara Park, just off Gilda Drive, there was

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Speaker 1: a park there and it had what felt at the

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Speaker 1: time to be the biggest slide in the world. Just

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Speaker 1: down the road from my grandma and grandpa in Cardigan

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Speaker 1: Street in Auburn, there was a park as well, just

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Speaker 1: next to Duck Creek and they had a slide. So

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Speaker 1: the big slide near where I drew up, it followed

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Speaker 1: the land as the land slid down, It just went

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Speaker 1: down the land, so you could always just get out

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Speaker 1: of the slide and put your feet on the ground,

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Speaker 1: whereas the one in anm Pops. It had the tallest

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Speaker 1: ladder of any slide I've ever seen in any playground

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Speaker 1: in history. It was huge. They were my favorites. Oh

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Speaker 1: and big swings, not the little playground swings like we

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Speaker 1: have now. Back in my day, I can't believe I

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Speaker 1: just said that we used to have swings and they

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Speaker 1: were so big that you couldn't reach the person as

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Speaker 1: they swung back to you because they were swinging so high.

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Speaker 1: We don't do any of that sort of stuff anymore.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that we don't have that sort of

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Speaker 1: playground whipment anymore is because people are worried that the risks. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think counsels are worried that somebody's going to get

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Speaker 1: sued because an arm will be broken, or a leg

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Speaker 1: will be broken, or somebody's going to get knocked unconscious

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Speaker 1: because a piece of steel hits them as this merry

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Speaker 1: go round spins around really fast. But here's the thing,

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Speaker 1: didn't really happen that much. Kids figured it out.

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Speaker 2: I remember a couple of kids breaking their arms on

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Speaker 2: the monkey bars when I was growing up. But when

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Speaker 2: you look at the number of children that went through

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Speaker 2: the school.

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Speaker 1: Or the hours of play on those monkey bars.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, it was such a minute minority. It wasn't just

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Speaker 2: a minority, it was tiny.

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Speaker 1: Okay, unplanned. Question, how serious is it when your child

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Speaker 1: breaks an arm? Like, is it that big of a deal?

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Speaker 2: It's not.

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Speaker 1: No, it's a story for the rest of your life. Like,

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Speaker 1: we really do worry about this stuff, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure that we're worried about the right kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about this idea of risky play.

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Speaker 1: Play that is risky is play that involves heights, that

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Speaker 1: involves speed, the potential for impact, play that involves independence

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Speaker 1: and just for find I'm going to throw and play

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Speaker 1: that involves tools. And the central point that I want

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Speaker 1: to make here is that when we grew up, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't called risky play.

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Speaker 2: It was just played.

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Speaker 1: It's exactly what it was. We've sanitized play. We've sanitized

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Speaker 1: the life, the learning, and the opportunity out of play.

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Speaker 2: When I went to preschool, so I was four years old,

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Speaker 2: and I still have vivid memories of the workbench. It

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Speaker 2: was supplied with all the clamps that we needed the nails,

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Speaker 2: the hammers, and it was all there, so I could

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Speaker 2: hammer all the different recyclable items onto a piece of

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Speaker 2: wood and then take it home and show my mom

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Speaker 2: and dad proudly what I had made.

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Speaker 1: Parents are struggling so much with the idea of risky

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Speaker 1: play that the Canadian Pediatric Society has put a list

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Speaker 1: together of how we can teach parents to do risky

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Speaker 1: play at home. Wow, and I know there's a wow

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Speaker 1: factor there, but I also, based on the conversations that

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Speaker 1: I'm having in various halls and teaching rooms and conferences

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Speaker 1: around the country, I want to go through this list

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Speaker 1: with you. We have limited time for it, so I

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Speaker 1: am going to go quickly, but feel free to interject

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Speaker 1: wherever you want. They've highlighted how you can do risky

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Speaker 1: play at home.

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Speaker 2: But here's the struggle though. There's no risky play anywhere allowed.

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Speaker 1: That's why so is where it's got to happen.

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Speaker 2: So parents follow suit, right.

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Speaker 1: Of course, but with the very best of intentions. We

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Speaker 1: just don't want our kids to get hurt. It's horrible

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Speaker 1: when you can get hurt, it really is. We had

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Speaker 1: a daughter who fell off It wasn't even a monkey bar,

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Speaker 1: but it was that kind of thing and she broke

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Speaker 1: her arm. We didn't realize for a few hours.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't a few hours, okay, maybe half an hour.

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Speaker 1: And you guess what, She's got a great story about

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Speaker 1: how she fell off while were down at the Vella

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Speaker 1: Drome show.

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Speaker 2: By the time I saw her ten minutes later, because

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Speaker 2: I'd sent her to the car, her arm was completely.

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Speaker 1: Bowed right right, it was broken. It was ugly. Here's

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Speaker 1: how you encourage risky play at home. Ideally some of

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Speaker 1: the kids don't break a leg or break an arm,

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Speaker 1: but some of they might, and that's where the fun is.

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Speaker 1: Playing at height. The Canadian Pediatric Society says that means

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Speaker 1: that you give your children opportunities to climb and jump

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Speaker 1: and balance at height. A note there's no suggestion that

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Speaker 1: there needs to be soft fall or a rubber mat

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Speaker 1: underneath them.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting again. I just had another visual. One of

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Speaker 2: the play equipment options at my school when I was

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Speaker 2: in grade one and two was this balancing beam. But

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a balancing being close to the ground like.

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Speaker 2: It was a full probably a meter and a half

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Speaker 2: off the ground like when I fell. I couldn't like

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Speaker 2: I didn't reach the height of the balancing beam.

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Speaker 1: I was doing that when I was a kid. Once

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Speaker 1: my dad said, look, it just didn't have fun. But

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Speaker 1: if you fall and break both your legs, don't come

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Speaker 1: running to me. Playing at speed that involves maybe riding

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Speaker 1: a bike at high speed, or sliding or running. We

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Speaker 1: used to do cardboard box sliding down steep hills with

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Speaker 1: the kids. We'd get like a refrigerated box, sit on

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Speaker 1: the box and just slide down this grassy hill. When

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Speaker 1: we were living in Woongong there was a great spot

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Speaker 1: for it, and we've also as the kids got old

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Speaker 1: and gone ice blocking so much fun. Sit on a

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Speaker 1: block of ice that you can buy from wherever you

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Speaker 1: buy wholesale ice. Sit on the block of ice and

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Speaker 1: slide down a grassy hill. Play involving tools, supervised activities

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Speaker 1: involving an axe, saw, knife, hammer, or ropes. I mean camping.

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Speaker 1: That's why kids love camping. Here's the next one that

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Speaker 1: they suggest. Play involving potentially dangerous elements, in other words,

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Speaker 1: playing near fire or water. I remember being on a

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Speaker 1: hike with the kids once and we found a waterfall

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Speaker 1: and just watching the kids scramble over these jagged rocks

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Speaker 1: near the base of the waterfall and thinking this is

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Speaker 1: so good. They're climbing over these jagged rocks and this

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Speaker 1: could go really badly. But here's the critical thing. They

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Speaker 1: take the risks that are appropriate for them and they

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Speaker 1: learn how to navigate and judge the risks. Rough and

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Speaker 1: tuble play so there's wrestling play, fighting, fencing with sticks,

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Speaker 1: play with risk for disappearing or getting lost. The Canadian

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Speaker 1: Pediatric Society say that exploring play spaces neighborhoods or woods

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Speaker 1: without adult supervision or in the case of young children

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Speaker 1: with limited supervision, like hiding behind the bushes, is good

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Speaker 1: for them. There are two others, play involving impacts, so

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Speaker 1: you could crash into something or someone, maybe repeatedly and

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Speaker 1: of course only for fun. And lastly, vicarious play. Vicarious

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Speaker 1: play is experiencing the thrill of watching other, often older children,

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Speaker 1: engaging in risky play. I love the list.

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Speaker 2: Another visual I went to my cousin's house one day

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Speaker 2: I probably was about eight, and she had a brand

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Speaker 2: new set of roller skates. The problem was she lived

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Speaker 2: at the top of this really steep driveway, so there

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Speaker 2: was nowhere to roll the skates.

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Speaker 1: That's brilliant.

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Speaker 2: I had never used a pair of roller skates and

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Speaker 2: I spent probably three or four for hours trying to

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Speaker 2: master roller skating down the driveway.

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Speaker 1: That's fantastic.

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Speaker 2: I think my bum must have been so black and

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Speaker 2: blue by the end of that day.

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Speaker 1: I need to make a quick note. We do need

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Speaker 1: to make sure when we consider that list, that what

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Speaker 1: we're encouraging our children to do is developmentally appropriate. So

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Speaker 1: there's a great line that I picked up from Jonathan

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Speaker 1: Hates after Babel Substack. He said, you want your kids

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Speaker 1: to be as safe as necessary, not as safe as possible.

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Speaker 1: So we do need to still recognize that there are risks.

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Speaker 1: That's why it's called risky play, and it needs to

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Speaker 1: be developmentally appropriate. A four year old can't do what

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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old can, and we shouldn't encourage that.

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Speaker 2: I loved what you said before about the fact that

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Speaker 2: as we allow our children the opportunity to spread their

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Speaker 2: wings a little bit and engage in risky play, they

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Speaker 2: will take the risks that are appropriate for them. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and as adults, it's really important that we don't squash

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Speaker 2: that in a voice and push them to do things

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Speaker 2: beyond their capacity within reason.

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Speaker 1: One other thing that I need to emphasize, and that's

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Speaker 1: this pushing point. We've got to allow our children the

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Speaker 1: option of saying no. So this is not about us

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Speaker 1: making them do risky play. This is about creating an

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Speaker 1: environment where they have the capacity to take risk. It's

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Speaker 1: about agency or autonomy. We need to be careful with pressure.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have adults pushing us to be risky when

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Speaker 1: we were kids. We just went and played case in point.

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Speaker 1: And I think I've shared this story before. Last Christmas,

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Speaker 1: we spent some time with my parents on the New

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Speaker 1: South walest Central Coast. My parents have a boat and

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Speaker 1: they have a donut that you can tie to, not

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Speaker 1: for eating, a donut that you can lay on and

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Speaker 1: lay behind the boat and zoom around. And our youngest Emily,

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Speaker 1: who at the time was nine, was terrified this was

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Speaker 1: risky for her. She's going to put a life jacket on,

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Speaker 1: hold on to the donut, and then get whipped around

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Speaker 1: the water and then.

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Speaker 2: Fall into jellyfish infested water.

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Speaker 1: There are millions of big jellyfish in the water. And

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Speaker 1: so we put her on the donut and said, promise,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to knock you off. We just want

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Speaker 1: you to get used to it. She was happy to

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Speaker 1: do that if she had a sister on either side

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Speaker 1: of her, and the donut was big enough for the

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Speaker 1: three of them to lay there. And after about thirty

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Speaker 1: seconds she was like, I like it. And then she

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Speaker 1: started to give us directions faster, faster. She wanted the speed,

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Speaker 1: she wanted the impact, she wanted the thrill, she wanted

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Speaker 1: the risk. She just needed to acclimatize to it. Now.

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Speaker 1: She did not fall off. We made sure that while

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Speaker 1: we gave her a lot of fun, we kept it

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Speaker 1: just to a level where she could barely hang on.

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Speaker 1: But she hung on. The critical thing here is that

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Speaker 1: we are now going to go back there next year

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Speaker 1: because she's dying. Every time she gets the chance Poppy

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Speaker 1: wink and we go on the boat again. She's dying

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Speaker 1: to get on there. She still doesn't want to fall off,

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Speaker 1: but as she gets bigger, as she has more experience

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Speaker 1: with it, she will continue to push those boundaries until

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Speaker 1: she's delighted to fall off and hopefully there won't be

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Speaker 1: any jelly fish in the water.

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Speaker 2: So you've got five tips for parents who are struggling

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Speaker 2: to engage in risky play.

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Speaker 1: Let me dive into these five things right before I do.

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Speaker 1: Research evidence shows some people are listening to this saying yet,

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Speaker 1: but I've got an anxious child. I can't do this

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Speaker 1: for them. Risky play, according to recent research, helps children

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Speaker 1: overcome anxiety disorders and the cognitive distortions that go along

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Speaker 1: with them.

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Speaker 2: Anyone who's done something hard knows the thrill that comes

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Speaker 2: from having achieved it, like you get to the other

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Speaker 2: side and you're just.

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Speaker 1: You're pumped, yep, and anxious children they don't get pumped

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Speaker 1: until they've overcome it. So they see something that has

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Speaker 1: some uncertainty, they don't know how to tolerate it. They

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Speaker 1: do tend to interpret ambiguous situations quite negatively, and they

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Speaker 1: underestimate their ability to cope if the situation has some

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Speaker 1: level of uncertainty around it. In risky Play, kids practice

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Speaker 1: dealing with strong, ambiguous emotions. Because thrill and excitement are

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Speaker 1: also interpreted as fear and terror. They learn how to

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Speaker 1: cope with that. They learn how to deal with situations

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Speaker 1: that abound with uncertainty, and it shows them that they're

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Speaker 1: resilient and capable of coping when things go wrong. The

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Speaker 1: research shows that children with more opportunities for risky play

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Speaker 1: have lower internalizing symptoms that you would consider characteristic of

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Speaker 1: anxiety disorders. Just had to say that. So let's dive

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Speaker 1: into what we can do to encourage our kids to

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Speaker 1: be playing in ways that are good for them, that is,

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Speaker 1: that are risky see above. Number one, say yes, like

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Speaker 1: don't be the parent says, oh no, you can't do that.

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Speaker 1: Just say yes. Number two, be outdoors because outdoors lends

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Speaker 1: itself to risky play much more than being indoors on

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Speaker 1: carpet staring at a TV. Number three. Encourage sports and

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Speaker 1: rough and tumble play and time near water. Obviously, safety

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Speaker 1: does need to be a factor, but look for opportunities

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Speaker 1: to be outside and move your bod and number four

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Speaker 1: get rist screens. Number five, get out of the way.

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Speaker 1: Just get out of the way. Stop controlling. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to minimize the significance of breaking an arm, but

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Speaker 1: breaking arms are okay. It's of course it's painful. Of

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Speaker 1: course there's stress associated with it, but breaking an arm

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Speaker 1: is okay. The kids can take risks.

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Speaker 2: A handful of years ago, our eldest convinced me to

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Speaker 2: jump out of a plane with her Yes, I may

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Speaker 2: have been saying what I thought might be my last

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Speaker 2: prayer that morning before I left to get in that bus,

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Speaker 2: and at the end of it, she asked me if

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Speaker 2: I was glad I did it, And the reality is

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Speaker 2: I wasn't right. I actually wasn't.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting it.

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Speaker 2: I didn't I didn't love the way my body felt

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Speaker 2: in that space. Does that mean that I'm completely risk averse. No,

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Speaker 2: There's plenty of things that I'm happy to do that

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Speaker 2: still leave me feeling really really anxious in the moment.

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Speaker 2: But I've worked out what my tolerance level is in

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Speaker 2: relation to what I'm willing to put myself through. I'm

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Speaker 2: still willing to do hard things, but there are some

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Speaker 2: things that I just know is not worth the payout.

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Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, And I think that's a really really good point.

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Speaker 2: And so yeah, I just think we help our kids

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Speaker 2: to recognize there are some things that are worth pushing

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Speaker 2: through and there are other things that if this is

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Speaker 2: too much for you, that's okay. Yep.

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Speaker 1: Agency matters. The research is pretty clear when you let

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Speaker 1: your kids take risks, they become more physically developed, they

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Speaker 1: are more emotionally resilient, they develop more social skills, they're

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Speaker 1: better at risk assessment, they're more creative in terms of

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Speaker 1: the way they solve problems, their mental health improves, and

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Speaker 1: they have a sense of agency autonomy over their lives.

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Speaker 1: It's just so valuable. We really hope that you've enjoyed

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Speaker 1: the conversation today. I know we've gone over time. It's

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Speaker 1: such a great topic though, isn't it. The Happy Families

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Speaker 1: podcast is produced by Justin Rwland from Bridge Media. If

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Speaker 1: you'd like more information about making your family happy, we'd

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Speaker 1: love for you to join us at Happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot I U check out our product. It's called FELT.

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Speaker 1: It's part of the Happy Families membership. FELT stands for

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Speaker 1: fostering emotional learning Together. It's all available at happy families

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Speaker 1: dot com dot a he