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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, when I trust someone, I believe what they're saying,

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Speaker 2: of course, and I believe that they have got my best.

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Speaker 3: Interests at heart, Okay, And that's what trust is.

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Speaker 2: So when trust is severed, I don't feel safe within

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Speaker 2: that relationship.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Gooday, this is doctor Justin Colson. I'm here with Kie,

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Speaker 3: my wife and mum to our six kids, who has

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Speaker 3: got a bit of a sore throat at the moment.

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Speaker 3: Are you feeling honey, I'm feeling great. I promise it's

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Speaker 3: not COVID. Kylie just tried to get her lozenge out

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Speaker 3: of him because we've got to record the podcast, and

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Speaker 3: it didn't quite land in her hand as she gently

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Speaker 3: tried to slip it from between her lips.

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Speaker 2: Just nothing is sacred in this house, literally nothing.

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Speaker 3: Nothing at all. What happens when you've got.

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Speaker 2: It, even when no one can see it, You've got

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Speaker 2: to tell everybody.

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Speaker 3: You go, sticky hands, the lozenges now safe.

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Speaker 2: Well, now that you've done that, I'm going to celebrate

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Speaker 2: because I have had a really really big win's. We've

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Speaker 2: shared over the last few months, my little journey with

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Speaker 2: the gym and different things that I've been trying, and

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Speaker 2: I've realized I've been doing all of this strength work

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Speaker 2: and I've been really achieving some big goals in that area,

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Speaker 2: but I am not doing any cardio whatsoever. I feel

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Speaker 2: like it's not obviously improving my fitness level.

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Speaker 3: So you're getting stronger, but you're not feeling fitter.

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Speaker 2: No, So I decided I was going to try and

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Speaker 2: run five kilometers. I haven't done that for probably.

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Speaker 3: About it would have to be six or seven years.

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Speaker 2: Well, Emily seven, eight or nine years, nine years since

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Speaker 2: I have done that, and my body just does not

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Speaker 2: feel like it was designed to run anymore. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: I set a goal and do you know what what

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Speaker 2: for the first time last week I ran my first

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Speaker 2: five kilometers.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that amazing?

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Speaker 2: You probably could walk right next to me.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, if you're running, I'm not walking.

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Speaker 2: But I did it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I really did it.

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Speaker 2: And it was so just the power of the mind.

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Speaker 2: I would get to a kilometer and just go, I'm

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Speaker 2: dying and I would stop and then I had a

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Speaker 2: little chat to my buddy who used to run with

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Speaker 2: me all those years ago. She said, golly, you've done

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Speaker 2: a killometer. You can do five just like that, And

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Speaker 2: just like that, I did five.

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Speaker 3: Well, have you told the kids about your five kilometers

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Speaker 3: of running? They were there all right, because so they've celebrated.

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Speaker 3: They've seen that mum can do hard things. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 3: great lesson for them. That's brilliant. How exciting. Now we

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Speaker 3: need to get onto the podcast and our conversation for

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Speaker 3: today relates to Parental Guidance. It's back again tonight, the

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Speaker 3: brand new TV show on Channel night where I'm the

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Speaker 3: co host and parenting expert. We get to see a

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Speaker 3: whole lot of new families. So we need to talk

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Speaker 3: about our conversation for today in the podcast. A continuation

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Speaker 3: from last week when we were talking about that chocolate

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Speaker 3: experiment in Parental Guidance, the new show on Channel nine.

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Speaker 3: We're on the parenting expert and co host. We talked

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Speaker 3: a lot about self control, but there was more to

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Speaker 3: it than just willed the kids eat the chocolate.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that we really didn't get to

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Speaker 2: a dress last week was when the children chose to

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Speaker 2: lie about their ability to have control swash our hands

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Speaker 2: and hand Did.

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Speaker 3: You eat one? What did you eat?

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Speaker 1: All right?

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Speaker 2: Let's okay, so you ate one? Did anyone else eat one? Okay?

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Speaker 3: All right, okay, So let's talk about this. We've got

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Speaker 3: kids who are lying. They've eaten chocolate, they've eaten treats

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Speaker 3: they were told specifically not to and in the case

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Speaker 3: of one of those children, she just out and out

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Speaker 3: said no, I didn't do it. One of the others

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Speaker 3: minimized half tree. My mina had some that he didn't

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Speaker 3: stop eating those old times, had one or two? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: one or two handfuls. Kidd oh, come on. So we've

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Speaker 3: got to talk about white kid's life. And I've made

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Speaker 3: a list as we've been preparing our conversation today of

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Speaker 3: seven reasons that children tell porky pies.

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Speaker 2: I think the number one cause, and you mentioned this

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Speaker 2: and highlighted it in the show, was just that fear

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Speaker 2: that children have of getting in trouble or been seen

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Speaker 2: in different lights called.

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Speaker 3: Self preservation, like what happens if they find out I'm

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Speaker 3: toast and so they they lie so that they won't

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Speaker 3: get in trouble. Of course, as parents, we try to

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Speaker 3: tell our kids if you lie, I'm going to find

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Speaker 3: out like we do. We find out most stuff, not

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Speaker 3: all every now and again. Our kids, well, now that

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Speaker 3: they're older, they'll be like, do you know that time

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Speaker 3: when I said blah blah and they then they said,

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Speaker 3: that's not what happened. And they've they've filled us in

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Speaker 3: And you can't look at them and go, oh, you

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Speaker 3: little rap back, little truer, get so cranky out of them.

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Speaker 3: So self preservation, fear of trouble is the first thing.

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Speaker 2: That's number two.

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Speaker 3: The next reason that they tell lies is because they

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Speaker 3: want something or they want to avoid something. So we

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Speaker 3: might say, have you done your homework? And they'll be like,

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Speaker 3: uh huh. Now, not that we're a homework family, but

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Speaker 3: if we were to ask that, or have you cleaned

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Speaker 3: up your room? Yeah, I sure have because they want

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Speaker 3: to go and watch the TV, or they want to

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Speaker 3: go and hang out with their friends, or they want

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Speaker 3: to spend some time on a screen, and we're like okay,

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Speaker 3: and then five minutes later we walk into the bedroom

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Speaker 3: it's like they haven't cleaned anything at all, that they lied,

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Speaker 3: and they're just lying because it's convenient, right, They can

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Speaker 3: see an opportunity to do something that they would much

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Speaker 3: rather do, And this is what they're going to do.

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Speaker 3: They're going to tell that lie.

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Speaker 2: Third reason that they lie, they're in over their heads.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a really understandable one. I've got a

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Speaker 3: lot of compassion here. Sometimes we put ourselves in situations,

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Speaker 3: even as adults, where we know we're in trouble. Maybe

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Speaker 3: maybe you're driving home. I promise I've never done this,

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Speaker 3: but perhaps you're driving home and a police officer pulls

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Speaker 3: you over for speeding and they say, is there any

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Speaker 3: reason you're driving so fast? How many people are actually

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Speaker 3: going to tell a lie there? Oh, yeah, I've got this,

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Speaker 3: Like the police officer actually doesn't care. You're still going

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Speaker 3: to get the ticket. But we lie because we're in

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Speaker 3: over ahead. We're trying to get out of trouble. We

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Speaker 3: think that if we can come up with a good

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Speaker 3: enough excuse that we might be okay. And this is

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Speaker 3: what our children do when they're maybe procrastinating schoolwork or

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Speaker 3: they're not doing the chores that we've asked them to do.

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Speaker 3: They just sort of they find themselves in a situation

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Speaker 3: that they don't know how to navigate, and they keep

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Speaker 3: on trying to push the reality of their impending doom

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Speaker 3: further away by lying because they're in over their head.

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Speaker 2: Number four, I think is a really important one for

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Speaker 2: us to highlight, especially in really young children.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're still trying.

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Speaker 2: To work out where the boundaries are.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of like they they've got this new

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Speaker 3: foundability to make up a story, and and it kind

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Speaker 3: of ties in with another thing that I wanted to

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Speaker 3: highlight as well. Another reason that kids are lying, and

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Speaker 3: that is because they want something to be true. Like

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Speaker 3: they've got this fantasy and so they'll tell you about

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Speaker 3: the time that they went on the horse, right at

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Speaker 3: the time that they went to the princess's castle, all

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Speaker 3: the time that they went flying just using their arms

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Speaker 3: up into the sky so that they could touch the sun.

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Speaker 3: And they're telling lies like that's the technical definition is

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Speaker 3: this is.

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Speaker 2: An untruth their imagination.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So they've got this new found imagination,

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Speaker 3: new found verbal capacity, newfound discoveries, and they're also trying

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Speaker 3: to work out where the boundaries are. So sometimes it's

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Speaker 3: because of just how young they are and they've got

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Speaker 3: this new developmental capacity to lie. And kids around two, three,

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Speaker 3: four five, they're the ones that are most likely to

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Speaker 3: do that. But I remember even even when I was,

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Speaker 3: and this ties in with another reason that we lie.

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Speaker 3: We lie because we want to be popular. Like I remember,

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Speaker 3: I think I was in about Grade eight, so it

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Speaker 3: was the late nineteen eighties. Maybe it was Grade nine,

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Speaker 3: maybe it was Grade seven, but it was around that time.

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Speaker 3: And I don't even remember what the name of the

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Speaker 3: festival was. But there was this great big concert festival,

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Speaker 3: music festival in all of the capital cities of Australia

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Speaker 3: at the same time, so Brisbane and Sydney and Melbourne

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Speaker 3: and Adelaide, Perth, they all had these concerts going with

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Speaker 3: all of these Australian artists. It was like some oz

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Speaker 3: music festival thing. And I showed up at school the

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Speaker 3: next day. I think it happened on a Friday or

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Speaker 3: a Saturday, maybe even a Sunday night, don't remember, but

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Speaker 3: I've showed up at school the next day or sometime

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Speaker 3: soon thereafter, and I bumped into a friend of mine.

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Speaker 3: His name was Scott, and Scott says, what do you

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Speaker 3: do on the weekend? And my parents had bought me

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Speaker 3: a shirt for that music festival, even though I'd sat

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Speaker 3: at home and watched it on the TV and I

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Speaker 3: said that I'd gone to Adelaide to watch the music

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Speaker 3: festival because my favorite bands were in Adelaide playing on

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Speaker 3: that particular stage, and he believed me, and I was

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Speaker 3: suddenly popular because whose parents fly their kid to Adelaide

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Speaker 3: from New South Wales to watch a concert on the weekend?

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Speaker 3: Like I was, suddenly everyone was talking about it. It's

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Speaker 3: kind of like I'd go surfing as a teenager, and

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Speaker 3: if the waves were really big, I always got the

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Speaker 3: biggest wave. And it's kind of like the story about

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Speaker 3: the fishermen. It's not just kids that do this, grown

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Speaker 3: up to do it as well. The fishermen tell me,

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Speaker 3: let me tell you about the fish that got away.

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Speaker 3: It was this big and their arms are wide enough

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Speaker 3: to show how big. But of course there's no proof

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Speaker 3: that it had happened. So there's this sense that I'm

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Speaker 3: lying because of popularity, because I want to look good.

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Speaker 2: Well, not even that I think if you extended a

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Speaker 2: little bit, we want to fit in. Have you ever

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Speaker 2: done that? Have you ever been involved with this person?

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Speaker 2: Have you boyfriend?

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Speaker 3: That's my final reason for lying is acceptance. Like kids

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Speaker 3: lie because they want to they want to look good.

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Speaker 3: They want to be part of the crowd. They want

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Speaker 3: to be better than that. And you'll see it especially

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Speaker 3: with kids that have got ADHD because they've got low

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Speaker 3: impulse control, low inhibition, low regulation. And also kids with

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Speaker 3: low self esteem. And that was me at high school,

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Speaker 3: really really low self esteem. Didn't feel like I fitted in,

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Speaker 3: didn't feel like I belonged. Kids with anxiety, they'll just

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Speaker 3: make up lies so that they can look better than

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Speaker 3: they are, so that they can be accepted. And so

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Speaker 3: getting our kids in trouble for lying when all they

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Speaker 3: want is to fit in, it kind of doesn't really

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Speaker 3: feel fair, does it.

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Speaker 2: No, I just sort of one more reason why our

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Speaker 2: kids sometimes lie out of protection for others.

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, yes.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes we ask our kids how their day was at

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Speaker 2: school and they say fine, because they don't want you

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Speaker 2: worrying as the parent about what's going on in their world.

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Speaker 2: They think that it will just add to your load.

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Speaker 3: When I was researching teenage girl for my book Misconnection,

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Speaker 3: they told me consistently how often they told lies to

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Speaker 3: their parents about what was going on in their lives

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Speaker 3: because they didn't want their friends to get caught out.

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Speaker 3: They were just trying to protect their friends. So our

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Speaker 3: reasons for kids lying. They're scared of getting in trouble,

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Speaker 3: they want something, or they want to avoid something. They're

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Speaker 3: in over their head. They're young and they're discovering new

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Speaker 3: ideas and boundaries. They want it to be true for popularity,

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Speaker 3: for acceptance, and for protection. Right after the break, let's

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Speaker 3: talk about what the problem with lying really is and

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Speaker 3: what we can do about it if our child is lying.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 4: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 4: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

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Speaker 4: of discipline as a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 4: with love, compassion, and humanity. Find it now at happy

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Speaker 4: families dot com, dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 3: Now, Now, how you doing? By the way, how are

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Speaker 3: you feeling?

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Speaker 2: I'm hanging in there.

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Speaker 3: See see you're telling the truth. I thought you were

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Speaker 3: going to say great, I'm okay, and I was going

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Speaker 3: to say no.

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Speaker 2: Why.

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Speaker 3: So let's talk about why lying is a problem as

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Speaker 3: we reflect on what happened in parental Guidance last week,

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Speaker 3: where kids were lying about whether or not they'd eaten

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Speaker 3: the junk food, the treats that have been left out.

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Speaker 3: Why is lying a problem?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the most important one is that it's

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Speaker 2: said as trust the relationship is ruptured.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So why is trust so important? I know I'm

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Speaker 3: putting you on the spot here, but why is trust

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Speaker 3: so important?

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Speaker 2: I don't actually know how to articulate what I'm thinking.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes there's just these principles that we know in our

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Speaker 3: hearts are true and right. There's things that it's just

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Speaker 3: how things are supposed to be, so being able to

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Speaker 3: articulate it is tricky. But I want to ask the

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Speaker 3: question because if we can't explain to our kids why

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Speaker 3: trust matters, then we're going to have a really hard

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Speaker 3: time teaching them how to tell the truth and why

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Speaker 3: the truth is so important.

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Speaker 2: When I trust someone, I believe what they're saying, of course,

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Speaker 2: and I believe that they have got my best interests

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Speaker 2: at heart.

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Speaker 3: And that's what trust is, right, believing that the other

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Speaker 3: person will act in your best interests.

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Speaker 2: So when trust is severed, then I can't believe that,

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Speaker 2: and therefore I don't feel safe within that relationship.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's really profoundly important that you've said it like that,

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Speaker 3: and if we can teach that to our children just

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Speaker 3: as you said it, that's so valuable. Let me give

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Speaker 3: you a couple of other reasons that the trust is

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Speaker 3: so important why lying becomes a problem. Lying is a

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Speaker 3: problem because when people lie, things don't work, relationships don't work.

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Speaker 2: There's no connection because it's not real, it's not authentic.

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Speaker 3: And everything takes longer. Like, if I think that you're

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Speaker 3: going to lie, I have to go and do all

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Speaker 3: of my own research. I have to do all of

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Speaker 3: my own background checks. You tell me that you're going

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Speaker 3: to do something, and then I've got to go and

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Speaker 3: ask everybody whether or not you are a person of integrity,

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Speaker 3: whether I can really trust you. I've watched people who

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Speaker 3: go into business deals and they're like, I'm about to

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Speaker 3: sign a contract with somebody, but I've heard so many

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Speaker 3: negative things about that person. I don't know if I

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Speaker 3: want to go into business with them, because what if

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Speaker 3: they're going to rip me off? This is the very

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Speaker 3: essence of truth and trustfulness. It's actually about efficiency.

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Speaker 2: It's trustfulness a word.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to call it a word. Yeah, Yeah, It's

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Speaker 3: about efficiency and that's what our market is actually built on.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: I want to go deeper with values, and we can

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Speaker 3: talk about archetypes of truth and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: But for our type or parent who just one's answers, now,

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Speaker 3: lying and truthfulness are about efficiency. When somebody is truthful,

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Speaker 3: we have efficient transactions, we have efficient relationships, we have

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Speaker 3: efficient interactions. I can say to my child, have you

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Speaker 3: cleaned your room? And they say yes, and we can.

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Speaker 2: Move on have to trapes down the hallway to check

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Speaker 2: and to find out that they haven't done it today

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Speaker 2: it saves.

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Speaker 3: Me thirty seconds or whatever it could be. So everything

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Speaker 3: just works when people tell the truth. When people don't

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Speaker 3: tell the truth, it makes everything inefficient. At a deeper level,

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Speaker 3: there's the relational impact as well. But I think that

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Speaker 3: for our conversation today and talking to our kids, it's

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Speaker 3: a good enough place to start. Mark Twain said, and

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Speaker 3: I'm paraphrasing, when you remember to tell the truth, you

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Speaker 3: don't have to keep on remembering everything that you said

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Speaker 3: because it's truth. And so here's what we need to

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Speaker 3: teach our kids when they lie. Oh, by the way,

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Speaker 3: what do you think our kids would do if they

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Speaker 3: pinched some chocolate, and we walked into the room and said,

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Speaker 3: did you guys take any chocolate? Do you think that

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Speaker 3: they'd own up or do you think that they'd be dishonest?

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Speaker 2: I think that we have one or two children that

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Speaker 2: might struggle with that telling the truth. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 2: think that we'd have a fair few that would just

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Speaker 2: come out and tell us yeah.

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Speaker 3: I can think of three of them would absolutely be

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Speaker 3: straight down the line. They'd probably say it with a

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Speaker 3: glint in their eye. They'd be laughing and saying and

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Speaker 3: it was really good, thanks for letting me steal it. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think there's one or two that might as well. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So here's a couple of things to do when it

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Speaker 3: comes to the kids lying. Number one, remember that it's normal.

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Speaker 3: Like catching your kids in a lie is really frustrating,

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Speaker 3: but it's a normal part of growing up. And when

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Speaker 3: we know that, it helps us to stay calm, Like

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Speaker 3: we're not raising sociopaths. They're just ones who don't want

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Speaker 3: to get in trouble, that are in over their head,

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Speaker 3: or that want to be accepted. Number two, don't ask

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Speaker 3: questions that you already know the answer to. If they're

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Speaker 3: smeared in chocolate, cake. Don't say did you eat the

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Speaker 3: chocolate cake because they're going to lie. Instead, say I

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Speaker 3: can see you eat some chocolate cake. You must be hungry,

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Speaker 3: and then pause and say do you think I'm pleased?

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Speaker 3: Or do you think I'm upset? Third idea, celebrate honesty

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Speaker 3: like seriously when they tell you the truth, make it

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Speaker 3: a big deal because they've told you the truth. Next,

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Speaker 3: get a simple promise out of them, what are you

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Speaker 3: going to do next time? And finally, model good behavior.

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Speaker 3: Don't tell lies yourself.

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Speaker 2: From time to time. Our kids are going to hold

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Speaker 2: the truth back from us for whatever reason it is.

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Speaker 2: We've given you a whole heap that it could possibly be,

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Speaker 2: and they're not going to share everything with us. But

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Speaker 2: for the most part, it's not going to have any

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Speaker 2: long term detrimental impact to their capacity to be honest

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Speaker 2: adults who live with integrity, and we've seen that time

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Speaker 2: and time again as we've had these funny conversations with

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Speaker 2: our kids around the dinner table and they've shared some

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Speaker 2: of their earlier misdemeanors.

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Speaker 3: Our job is to make sure our kids feel safe

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Speaker 3: enough to talk to us. That's really at the heart

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Speaker 3: of what we're doing here. We really hope that this

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Speaker 3: podcast has been helpful in the way that you might

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Speaker 3: approach your kids if they're not quite being as truthful

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Speaker 3: with you as they need to be. It's a softly, softly,

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Speaker 3: gently gently approach. If nothing's working, try my three ease

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Speaker 3: of effective discipline. You can find out more about them

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Speaker 3: at happy families dot com dot you. The Happy Families podcast,

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Speaker 3: as always, is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and if you would

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Speaker 3: like more info about making your family happier, visit happy

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Speaker 3: families dot com dot a