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Speaker 1: Gooday. This is doctor Justin Coulson, the author of six

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Speaker 1: books about raising happy families and the founder of Happy

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Speaker 1: Families dot com dot au. Here with Kylie, my wife,

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Speaker 1: podcast co host and mum to our six daughters. Because

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Speaker 1: at school holidays we are sharing with you podcast conversations

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Speaker 1: that matter. We think that this one is going to

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Speaker 1: be really important. Yes, I am a parenting expert, but

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Speaker 1: in this episode we talk about what happens when an

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Speaker 1: experts technique doesn't work. I can't believe I'm confessing to

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Speaker 1: that the essence of this episode is that parenting is

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Speaker 1: not about habits, It's about heart. It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers.

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Speaker 1: Now. I can't emphasize this enough. Getting parenting right is

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Speaker 1: not about habits, It's about our heart. And now here's

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Speaker 1: the stars of our show, my mom and dad. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Happy Family's Podcast. I'm doctor Justin Coulson. Are

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Speaker 1: you laughing at you?

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Speaker 3: Just went totally against everything I.

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Speaker 1: Said I did? As soon as I opened the mic,

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Speaker 1: something different came out of what you're expecting. I'm here

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Speaker 1: with Kylie, who I do listen to and take counsel

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Speaker 1: from an influence from all the time.

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Speaker 3: Really all the time today.

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Speaker 1: Founder of Happy Families dot Com. I might have already

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Speaker 1: said that, And Kylie, you've had some insights just over

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Speaker 1: the last few days as you've been doing story time

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Speaker 1: with our seven year old.

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Speaker 2: Storytime is literally like one of my favorite times of day.

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Speaker 2: I just love that slower pace and being able to

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Speaker 2: snuggle in bed together and reconnect.

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Speaker 1: At least you used to, well, yeah, you know, I

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Speaker 1: used to love reading books.

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Speaker 2: Like Edward, the emu was sick of the zoo. There

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Speaker 2: was nowhere to go, there was nothing to do when

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Speaker 2: compared to the seals that live right next door, while

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Speaker 2: being an emu was frankly a bore. That's one of

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Speaker 2: my favorite stories. Do you know what she's getting me

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Speaker 2: to read them these days?

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Speaker 1: Share it.

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Speaker 2: The body of an insect is divided into three parts.

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Speaker 2: The head houses the brain and supports the eyes, feelers,

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Speaker 2: and mouth parts. All insects have six legs on their thorax.

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Speaker 3: And many have wings. The abdomen contains the organs for

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Speaker 3: digestion and reproduction.

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Speaker 1: You're saying that you're not enjoying reading stories with our

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Speaker 1: seven year old anymore because it's more of a scientist.

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Speaker 3: We have the same ring to it, let's just put

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Speaker 3: it that way.

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Speaker 2: And she is just engrossed in all of these information

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Speaker 2: books and she wants to know every detail about everything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Has that working for you? As storytime still is relaxing,

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Speaker 1: You're still feeling as connected as you used to.

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Speaker 3: There's some really.

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Speaker 2: Big words and there I have to work my way around.

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Speaker 2: But she just loves it, and so as a result,

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Speaker 2: I will learn to love it.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Yet, today we're talking about something really interesting, something

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Speaker 1: that I think is going to be hopefully a lot

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Speaker 1: of fun. We're talking about when my techniques, my parenting

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Speaker 1: techniques that I share with people all the time, don't work.

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Speaker 3: You mean they don't work.

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Speaker 1: Well, No, they do. They do. They do. Let me

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Speaker 1: be really clear. They do. But a friend of a

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Speaker 1: friend of ours, David, sent me a text message the

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Speaker 1: other day and he is a good mate and he

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Speaker 1: has given us permission to share his experience on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: But David was in the in the kitchen when the

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Speaker 1: children were having an interaction shall we call it with

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Speaker 1: one another interactions, and he decided to try one of

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Speaker 1: my parenting techniques and and all he said. He sent

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Speaker 1: me a video of it, and underneath it he said, tried.

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Speaker 1: Your technique didn't work. Let me share show. This is

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Speaker 1: the next show? This is We already watched the whole.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you guys are having a hard time.

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Speaker 1: Would you like me to help? How are you feeling

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Speaker 1: at the moment? I what do you laughing at?

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Speaker 2: David sounded so engrossed in it, didn't he There's so

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Speaker 2: much passion in his voice as he asked me to

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Speaker 2: those questions.

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Speaker 1: So, firstly, David, thanks for giving us permission to share

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Speaker 1: your parenting moment. I was going to say fail, but

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Speaker 1: we'll just call it a moment for now. We'll dissect

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Speaker 1: it in a minute. And when you listen to that though,

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Speaker 1: so David's obviously he's given me a hard time because

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Speaker 1: my parenting strategy didn't work. Because something that I say

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Speaker 1: all the time is that when the kids are having

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Speaker 1: a hard time, just gently intervene. Say, you guys seem

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Speaker 1: to be having a rough time. What can I do

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Speaker 1: to help? How can I help? Or how are things

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Speaker 1: feeling right now? But when you listen to David do that, Kylie,

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Speaker 1: can you think of any reasons that my parenting technique

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Speaker 1: might not have worked in that instance. I mean, let's

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Speaker 1: just quiz you and see if you can deconstructed. And

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Speaker 1: the reason that I'm doing this, by the way, is

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Speaker 1: because we do tend to learn best when we're not

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Speaker 1: listening to or participating in something with an expert, but

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Speaker 1: with somebody who's kind of a bit like us, when

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Speaker 1: we get to see their mistakes, we get better at it.

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Speaker 1: If I want to become a better motorcycle racer, not

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Speaker 1: that I ride motorcycles, of course, but if I were

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Speaker 1: watching a GP Formula one motorcyclist I don't even know

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Speaker 1: what they call that thing was around the track, I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to learn much because they're just so far

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Speaker 1: advanced compared to where I would be on a motorbike.

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Speaker 1: I need to watch somebody who doesn't know very much,

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Speaker 1: but just a bit more than me. So as you

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Speaker 1: listen to David's interaction with his kids, what stood out to.

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Speaker 2: You well, first and foremost his tone when you said

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Speaker 2: the words I melted. Maybe that's because I'm biased, but

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Speaker 2: there was a genuineness to the things that you were saying,

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Speaker 2: Whereas it felt like David was like, oh, I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to give this a go because the expert told

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Speaker 2: me I should, but I don't believe it's going to work.

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Speaker 1: And this is the critical thing where having a script.

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Speaker 1: This is why I actually don't like giving people scripts.

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Speaker 1: I've started doing it because people beg me for what

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Speaker 1: do I say? What do I do? But I can't

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Speaker 1: emphasize this enough. Getting parenting right is not about habits.

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Speaker 1: It's about our heart.

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Speaker 3: And it's not about getting the words right, right right.

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Speaker 1: It's three right, center, right right. It's not about that

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Speaker 1: at all. It's about our hearts. And as you've pointed out,

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Speaker 1: there's not a lot of heart in what David's saying.

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Speaker 1: He's shouting for across the room. Sorry, I'm answering the question,

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Speaker 1: what else did you notice?

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Speaker 2: Well, he was shouting from across the room, shouting toroom, okay,

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Speaker 2: and what else. At no point did he actually engage

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Speaker 2: with the children.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so he was kind of shouting over the top

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Speaker 1: of them from a different room. There's no eye contact,

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Speaker 1: there's no humanity in it. It's literally just it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like when you ring a call center and you

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Speaker 1: get this person on the other line. They pick up

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Speaker 1: the phone and they say that must be very hard

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Speaker 1: for you. I'm so sorry for you, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: I heard a comedian recently. His wife called a call

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Speaker 1: center and she said, I've just received a letter from you,

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Speaker 1: my insurance, and you're saying that my husband is dead.

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Speaker 1: He's not dead. And the lady on the other end

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Speaker 1: of the line in the courseter said, I'm so sorry

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Speaker 1: he's not dead. So when you've got a script, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't always work because the context is kind of everything,

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Speaker 1: and we've got to we got to kind of be

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Speaker 1: in the moment. So what David's done is he's called

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Speaker 1: across the room. There's no feeling, there's no heart. He's

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Speaker 1: just following the script. He's not connecting with the kids.

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Speaker 2: Not only is he not just following, he's just following

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Speaker 2: the script, but he actually doesn't believe it's going to work.

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Speaker 1: You can kind of hear it in his voice. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And in fairness to David, I mean, he was kind

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Speaker 1: of just giving me a hard time. He just wanted

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Speaker 1: to shove it back at me and say, yeah, come on,

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Speaker 1: mister parring X, But what am I supposed to do now?

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Speaker 3: But it kind of goes back to that whole heart thing.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't it. It's like, what is the intent of our heart?

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Speaker 2: Are we just we're doing this because our spouse thinks that,

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Speaker 2: you know, we need to give things a go, we

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Speaker 2: want to change things up, or do we actually care

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Speaker 2: about what's happening in our space right now?

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Speaker 1: So if we're going to get this right, if kids

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Speaker 1: are fighting, or if our children are having a hard time,

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Speaker 1: big emotions, whatever it is, and we're trying our very

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Speaker 1: best not to explode, we want to explore. We want

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Speaker 1: to help them to figure it out. There's got to

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Speaker 1: be a better way. David, I'm so sorry now that

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Speaker 1: we've completely demolished your parenting. We're going to come back

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Speaker 1: after the break and talk about how we can get

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Speaker 1: this right.

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Speaker 3: We call this constructive criticism, don't we?

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Speaker 1: And right in fact, right after the break, there is

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Speaker 1: more to the story. David did message me shortly afterwards

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Speaker 1: and shared a little bit more that changes everything completely.

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Speaker 1: Going to tell you what that is in just a sec.

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Speaker 1: It's a Happy Famili's.

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Speaker 4: Podcast for a happier family. Try a Happy Families membership,

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Speaker 4: because a happy family doesn't just happen. Details at happy

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Speaker 4: families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Family's podcast, the podcast for the Time

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Speaker 2: Poor parent who just Wants Answers Now, and today we

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Speaker 2: are dissecting David's parenting.

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Speaker 1: We're giving you answers now because of your time poor

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Speaker 1: So what do you do when the kids are fighting

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Speaker 1: and you know that you're supposed to intervene and you've

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Speaker 1: got the doctor justin calls on script but it's kind

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Speaker 1: of not working for whatever reason.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but are we supposed to intervene?

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Speaker 1: Huh? Really interesting. I think that the very best parents

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Speaker 1: have the they have a level of discernment where they

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Speaker 1: know when to step in and they know when to

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Speaker 1: step out.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's really hard when you're in the same

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Speaker 2: space and you can hear at tension or contention, it's

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Speaker 2: really hard to not want to just scale it down

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Speaker 2: really quickly fix the problem that your kids.

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Speaker 1: You love them, they're supposed to love each other, and

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Speaker 1: everyone wants peace and quiet, especially at about six o'clock

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Speaker 1: at night when it's that time. Everyone's tired. So knowing

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Speaker 1: when to step in and step out is the critical thing,

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Speaker 1: I think. And in that situation, because they were just

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Speaker 1: having an argument about a TV show, I would probably

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Speaker 1: actually say just step out. Don't get involved. No one's

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Speaker 1: getting hurt.

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Speaker 2: Obviously I couldn't see the video, but there were moments

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Speaker 2: where there was dead where the kids were kind of like,

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Speaker 2: I've got to think for another argument to get my

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Speaker 2: point across.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've already seen. What was this movie that they

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Speaker 1: were talking about. I don't want to watch the Sheep

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Speaker 1: at all. I think that was the teenager that was

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Speaker 1: saying that he was one with the deeper voice, so

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Speaker 1: knowing when to step in and when to step out. Typically,

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Speaker 1: when somebody crosses a line in terms of making threats,

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Speaker 1: saying things that are just completely inappropriate and unkind, or

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Speaker 1: when somebody looks like they're in danger of being hurt,

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Speaker 1: that's that's when I recommend we intervene. But for the

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Speaker 1: most part, our kids have got to figure this stuff out.

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Speaker 1: And I mentioned that David did have more to the story,

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Speaker 1: and I reckon it's probably worth sharing it. I messaged

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Speaker 1: him back and laughed at his feeble attempt at implementing

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Speaker 1: the strategy that I shared, and then he said they

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Speaker 1: worked it out on their own. In the end, they're

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Speaker 1: all happy now, which kind of highlights the point. We

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Speaker 1: don't have to fix everything as parents. We feel like

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Speaker 1: we're supposed to be the police, the prosecutor, and the preacher.

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Speaker 1: What I mean by that is that the police that's

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Speaker 1: the one who's stepping in and breaking it away. In

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor, this is where we start to work out

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Speaker 1: who's right who's wrong and send someone to their bedrooms.

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Speaker 1: And the preacher, that's when we step into lecture mode

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Speaker 1: and we say, right, that's it. You need to learn.

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Speaker 1: You've got to be nice to each other. And we

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Speaker 1: say all those things that we swore we would never

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Speaker 1: say when our parents were saying it to us, and

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Speaker 1: now we're repeating it to the next generation.

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Speaker 2: Well, last week we had a really good discussion about

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Speaker 2: this in book club reading your book Ten Things that

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Speaker 2: Every Parent Should Know, and we talked about this whole

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Speaker 2: idea of sibling rivalry.

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Speaker 1: I've got to interrupt you. My book is called Ten

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Speaker 1: Things Every Parent Needs to Know, Oh needs It's not

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Speaker 1: what every parent should know needs to know. I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to be clear about that because it is my

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Speaker 1: book that you're quoting to me right now. By the way,

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Speaker 1: book club happens every Wednesday night for four weeks every

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Speaker 1: term for our Happy Face Family's members. So you've got

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people who are having a conversation with

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Speaker 1: you about ten things every parent needs to.

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Speaker 2: Know, needs to know because they need need to know it,

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Speaker 2: they need it.

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Speaker 1: And what we were talking about, we were talking about.

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Speaker 3: The vicious circle.

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Speaker 2: This is something that we've done a lot in our

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Speaker 2: home and it really helps because sometimes the kids are

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Speaker 2: going to work it out, but sometimes they're just not.

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Speaker 2: So you want to talk us through what that vicious

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Speaker 2: circle looks like?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, very very briefly, because it's kind of complicated and

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Speaker 1: you sort of need the model to work it out.

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Speaker 1: But imagine if you've got a piece of paper. At

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Speaker 1: the top of the piece of paper, you draw a

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Speaker 1: box and you're right, what they did? You look at

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Speaker 1: one of the kids and say, well, what did they do?

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Speaker 1: And this is their opportunity to saying, Oh, they yelled

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Speaker 1: at me, and they called me a name, and they

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Speaker 1: hit me, and they took my toy and they stood

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Speaker 1: in front of the TV. They get to say all

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Speaker 1: the stuff that their sibling did to them. Then you

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Speaker 1: draw a box down into the right. You're going to

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Speaker 1: draw four boxes in total, on the top, one at

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Speaker 1: the bottom, one on the left, and one and the

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Speaker 1: right in the middle, and so the second one is

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Speaker 1: down on the right hand margin, and that's how I felt.

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Speaker 1: So you say to a child, well, how did you feel?

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Speaker 1: And they say I felt aggrieved, I felt vulnerable. I

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Speaker 1: felt They're actually not going.

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Speaker 3: To use those say those are some big words for

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Speaker 3: my five year old.

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Speaker 1: Although I remember doing this with our seven and ten

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Speaker 1: year old a few years ago, children four and five,

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Speaker 1: and our seven year old Lily, she was seven at

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Speaker 1: the time. She looked at me and I said, had

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Speaker 1: you feel when and he did that to you? And

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Speaker 1: he was ten. Lily looked at me with this glint

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Speaker 1: in her seven year old eye and said vengeful. Great word,

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Speaker 1: great world. And I was so proud of her. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't very happy she got vengeful, but I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know how you were feeling? Good work. And so

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Speaker 1: then at the bottom we after they've told us how

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Speaker 1: they feel, we say, well, what did you do? When

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Speaker 1: we draw another box there? What I did? So the

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Speaker 1: three boxes so far, what they did, how I felt?

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Speaker 1: What I did?

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Speaker 2: Do you find in that spot when you asked them

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Speaker 2: what they did? That they're not as detail.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because they all of a sudden have to

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Speaker 1: own their part in this conflict.

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Speaker 2: So they'll give you every single detail of what someone

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Speaker 2: else has done, but when it gets to them, they'll

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Speaker 2: just kind of say, well, I tapped her on the shoulder.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right. I pretended to kick her and

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Speaker 1: I might have accidentally just gotten her that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: And I usually do it in front of both siblings,

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Speaker 1: So I look at the other one and say is

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Speaker 1: this accurate? Is there anything that she's missed? So they

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Speaker 1: get the chance to really take responsibility, ownership, be accountable

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Speaker 1: for their behavior. And then the last question is the

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Speaker 1: most important one. So this is the one that's in

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Speaker 1: the middle on the left hand side and the left

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Speaker 1: hand margin. It's how they felt. So I'm talking to

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Speaker 1: the one who looks like they're the victim, and I'm

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Speaker 1: asking the victim, what did the aggressor do? How did

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Speaker 1: it make you feel? Now let's turn the tables. What

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Speaker 1: did you do? And then how did the aggressive feel

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Speaker 1: when you did that to them? And this requires empathy,

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Speaker 1: This requires perspective taking. They've actually got to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: in being the victim initially their counter attack has turned

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Speaker 1: them into the perpetrator. The aggressor, and then I draw

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Speaker 1: arrows between those four boxes so that it creates a circle,

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Speaker 1: and it becomes what I call a vicious circle, because

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Speaker 1: once that initial aggressor has become the victim, what do

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Speaker 1: they do? Will they act out again? And this thing

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Speaker 1: just keeps on going around and around and around. So

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Speaker 1: that's the vicious circle in two minutes or less.

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Speaker 2: So when you don't have that vicious circle and that model,

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Speaker 2: what you end up with is he said, she said,

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Speaker 2: and you just keep going back and forth.

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Speaker 3: And you don't get anywhere agony. Yeah yeah, Whereas.

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Speaker 2: This actually allows our kids to actually see where they

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Speaker 2: are responsible pretty much and take accountability for what they're

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Speaker 2: doing while acknowledging what's being done and how they felt

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 1: But remember this is the conversation that you have when

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Speaker 1: everyone's calmed down afterwards.

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Speaker 2: So David couldn't have gone in if this situation didn't

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Speaker 2: get better in quickly. He wouldn't be able to go

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Speaker 2: in and just have that conversation with them while they

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Speaker 2: were still all emotional.

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Speaker 1: No, because high emotions low intelligence. In a nutshell, the

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Speaker 1: takeo message is this, David, you blew it. He's got

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Speaker 1: it all wrong. Because you were doing it as a script,

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Speaker 1: you were doing it as a habit. You weren't doing

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Speaker 1: it from your heart. We need to make sure we've

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Speaker 1: got our kids.

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Speaker 3: We can't wait for your next video though.

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Speaker 1: We need to make sure that we've got our kids

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Speaker 1: eye contact. We need to engage with them in a

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Speaker 1: way that shows that we're trying to actually connect and

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Speaker 1: work things out together. And then ideally we don't step

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Speaker 1: in unless we really have to. We're careful about when

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Speaker 1: we step in. We try to stay out of it

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Speaker 1: as much as possible. I like to call it sort

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Speaker 1: of this benign neglect. It's not a harmful sort of neglect.

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Speaker 1: It's like you guys will figure it out, and I'm

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Speaker 1: here just in case, and then we step in we

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Speaker 1: have to, and then later on we sit down and

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Speaker 1: we go through the vicious circle. I mean, you don't

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Speaker 1: want to go through it all the time. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of taxing. There's a lot to it, but you want

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Speaker 1: to do it when emotions are low. That's the real

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Speaker 1: take home message, I'd say.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things that I've noticed over

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Speaker 2: the years with each of the kids is at different

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Speaker 2: times when we've actually noticed that there's been conflict through

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Speaker 2: the day, but they've been able to resolve it together.

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Speaker 2: Having a conversation with them at the end of the

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Speaker 2: day and acknowledging how they worked through that and how

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Speaker 2: proud you are of the fact that they were able

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Speaker 2: to do those things in a way that left everybody

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Speaker 2: feeling whole.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. For our Happy Families members, we've actually got a

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Speaker 1: couple of really strong webinars about how to work through

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Speaker 1: that vicious circle and how to deal with challenges with siblings.

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Speaker 1: That's in the premium membership. You can go back through

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Speaker 1: the webinar archive and check them out. And the book

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about is Ten Things Every Parent Needs

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Speaker 1: to Know all of our.

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Speaker 2: Happiness needs to just putting it out there. I got

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Speaker 2: it right, I know, I'm just emphasizing your words, and

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Speaker 2: it needs to.

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Speaker 1: Know Ten Things Every Parent needs to Know. That's the book.

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Speaker 1: You can get it online everywhere, and if you're a

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Speaker 1: Happy Family's member, you can participate in book club on

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Speaker 1: Wednesday night for week three of Ten Things Every Parent

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Speaker 1: Needs to Know. We really hope you've enjoyed the podcast,

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Speaker 1: hope that it's helpful when it comes to dealing with

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Speaker 1: the challenges that kids present to us. David, thanks for

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Speaker 1: being such a good sport about it. The Happy Family's

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Speaker 1: podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media, with

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Speaker 1: Craig Bruce, our executive producer. If you'd like more info

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Speaker 1: about making your family happier, jump online to happy families

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Speaker 1: dot com dot A m HM