WEBVTT - Should sexual services be funded by the NDIS?

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 2>the eleventh of July.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm zara, I'm sam.

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<v Speaker 2>Should NDIS funds be able to be used on sexual services?

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<v Speaker 2>That's a question being debated this week after NDIS Minister

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<v Speaker 2>Bill Shorten said access to those services would be removed

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<v Speaker 2>if draft legislation is passed in the Senate. In today's

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<v Speaker 2>deep dive, we're going to explain why the government is

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<v Speaker 2>making changes to the NDIS, the arguments for removing access

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<v Speaker 2>to those sexual services, and why some disability advocates are

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<v Speaker 2>against the move. But first, here's what's making news today.

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<v Speaker 1>The federal government has announced a new scorecard system to

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<v Speaker 1>rate employment providers for people with disabilities. The measure services

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<v Speaker 1>will be given a public rating out of three based

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<v Speaker 1>on their quality, efficiency and effectiveness. Performance will be reviewed

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<v Speaker 1>every three months. Social Services Minister Amanda Rishworth says she

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<v Speaker 1>wants to see quote continual improvement from employers. The measure

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<v Speaker 1>is aimed at boosting employment opportunities.

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<v Speaker 2>Two men are face court over smuggling more than two

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and forty kilos of drugs into Australia concealed inside

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<v Speaker 2>furniture and appliances. Federal police sees two hundred and eleven

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<v Speaker 2>kilos of cocaine and thirty kilos of ketamine across multiple searches.

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<v Speaker 2>The drugs are believed to be linked to an international

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<v Speaker 2>crime syndicate and have a combined estimated street value of

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<v Speaker 2>over seventy five million dollars. The men, aged thirty nine

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<v Speaker 2>and twenty three, appeared in court in Sydney yesterday. Police

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<v Speaker 2>say they're facing a maximum sentence of life in prison.

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<v Speaker 1>Tropical storm Beryl has killed at least eight people and

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<v Speaker 1>caused major dammage in the US states of Texas and Louisiana.

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<v Speaker 1>The hurricane battered parts of the Caribbean last week before

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<v Speaker 1>moving north, bringing gal force winds, heavy rain, and severe

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<v Speaker 1>flooding to America's southern states, where millions still remain without power.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been downgraded to a post tropical cyclone as it

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<v Speaker 1>moves northeast, with intense rainfall expected.

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<v Speaker 2>And today's good news, a man in the US has

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<v Speaker 2>received a new voice box in one of the first

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<v Speaker 2>successful transplants of its kind after being diagnosed with larynx cancer.

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<v Speaker 2>Treatment meant the man lost his voice and could only

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<v Speaker 2>breathe through a hole in his neck. Four months after

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<v Speaker 2>an experimental larynx transplant led by the Mayo Clinic, he's

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<v Speaker 2>now able to speak, swallow, and breathe. The patient signed

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<v Speaker 2>up for the trial and the hopes of being able

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<v Speaker 2>to read bedtime stories to his granddaughter. People with disability

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<v Speaker 2>will no longer be able to use National Disability Insurance Scheme.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's NDAA funding to access what's called sexual services,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is under a series of reforms to the system.

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<v Speaker 2>It was confirmed this week by NDIS Minister Bill Shorten,

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<v Speaker 2>who said on Sky News that sex work would be

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<v Speaker 2>removed from the list of approved services if the proposed

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<v Speaker 2>legislation to quote tidy up the scheme passes Parliament.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a topic that when I've been reading online

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<v Speaker 1>about it over the last couple of days, has really

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<v Speaker 1>strong views on both sides. I want to go into

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<v Speaker 1>what those views are. But before we do, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>tidy up the NDIS. There's a couple of terms being

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<v Speaker 1>thrown around. We need some clarity on give me some

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<v Speaker 1>context on the actual NDIS itself.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely so. The NDIS, as I said, is the

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<v Speaker 2>National Disability Insurance Scheme. It provides support and services for

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<v Speaker 2>Australians with disability. The way it works is that individuals

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<v Speaker 2>are allocated a personal budget and that's calculated on what

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<v Speaker 2>is reasonable or necessary for each person. Funding includes access

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<v Speaker 2>to things like community services, transport, vehicle modifications and help

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<v Speaker 2>with kind of data day activities. It was launched in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty thirteen and it was completely rolled out only in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty. There are now over six hundred and ten

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<v Speaker 2>thousand Australians to receive support from the NDIS.

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<v Speaker 1>And I get an interesting perspective on this story because

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<v Speaker 1>I'm married to somebody who writes NDIS reports and I

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<v Speaker 1>kind of see how much paperwork goes into the back

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<v Speaker 1>end of these. So I have sex work services been

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<v Speaker 1>available then for people who get through the qualification process

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<v Speaker 1>and do qualify for the NDIS.

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<v Speaker 2>So not the whole time. Specialized sex services have been

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<v Speaker 2>available through the NDIS since twenty twenty and that was

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<v Speaker 2>the result actually of a court case that was brought

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<v Speaker 2>by a forty year old woman with multiple sclerosis who

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<v Speaker 2>was denied funding for a trained sex worker. She then

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<v Speaker 2>launched a legal challenge to that rejection and she argued

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<v Speaker 2>that the NDIS Act doesn't explicitly exclude sex services. Ultimately,

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<v Speaker 2>the Federal court ruled in her favor, and it found

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<v Speaker 2>that there was no implied exclusion of such activities, and

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<v Speaker 2>in our opinion, the better view is that they are

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<v Speaker 2>intended to be included. So that being a direct quote

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<v Speaker 2>from that Federal court decision.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you give me a sense of like how prevalent

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<v Speaker 1>this is in the NDAs, Like, is this rolled out

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<v Speaker 1>to everybody?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I think that's a really important thing to focus

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<v Speaker 2>on because I think when we talk about stories like

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<v Speaker 2>this on a national stage and people have very strong opinions,

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<v Speaker 2>it kind of seems like it's widespread, it's everywhere. That's

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely not the case. So I do want to give

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<v Speaker 2>you a sense of the numbers. And that's just going

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<v Speaker 2>off Bill Shorten, As I said, who's the NDIS miniesot

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<v Speaker 2>what he has said this week? He told the ABC

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<v Speaker 2>that there have been two hundred and twenty eight requests

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<v Speaker 2>for sexual activity support in the twelve months to the

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<v Speaker 2>end of April, but that he and I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>quote here, said none of them were granted.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So in a pool of six hundred and ten

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<v Speaker 1>thousand people receiving NDIS funding. There were two hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>twenty eight requests and we don't think, according to the minister,

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<v Speaker 1>that any of them were granted. Correct, So why is

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<v Speaker 1>it a topic for us to talk about today.

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<v Speaker 2>So the reason that we're talking about it is because

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<v Speaker 2>the government is trying to pass this legislation through the Senate,

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<v Speaker 2>and that legislation is kind of a suite of reforms

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<v Speaker 2>that's broadly aimed at cutting costs associated with the NDIS.

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<v Speaker 2>The federal budget has predicted that NDIS costs will rise

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<v Speaker 2>from forty four point three billion dollars this year to

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<v Speaker 2>more than ninety billion dollars by the end of the decade.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a huge, huge spend when it comes to

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<v Speaker 2>the government's budget. And so right now the Albanese government

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<v Speaker 2>is looking at those costs and trying to figure out

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<v Speaker 2>ways to bring down those costs across the board, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's why they've introduced this legislation that I said is

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<v Speaker 2>currently in the Senate, and that's aiming to save fourteen

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<v Speaker 2>point four billion dollars over the next four years. And

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<v Speaker 2>the way that the government is looking at really bringing

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<v Speaker 2>down those costs is by doing a number of things.

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<v Speaker 2>That includes streamlining the goods and services that people can

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<v Speaker 2>access with NDIS funding.

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<v Speaker 1>And so if we zoom out a little bit and

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<v Speaker 1>look at the broader context of where this discussion is

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<v Speaker 1>taking place, I remember in the budget address by Jim

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<v Speaker 1>Chalmers there was discussions about waste in the program and

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<v Speaker 1>an aging population and there's clearly those projections you've just

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<v Speaker 1>taken us through and they're kind of trying to tighten

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<v Speaker 1>the belt.

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<v Speaker 2>Here exactly, and that's the context that this conversation has emerged.

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<v Speaker 2>So Bill Shorten, as I said, confirmed this week that

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<v Speaker 2>sex services don't pass the test, is what he said directly,

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<v Speaker 2>and that they will be cut from this NDIS funding

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<v Speaker 2>as part of these cost saving measures. I'll quote him here.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, what we do want to do is make

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<v Speaker 2>sure people have the ability to get things that are

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<v Speaker 2>reasonable and necessary. The rules have been a bit loose

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<v Speaker 2>at the margins, I think for a number of reasons.

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<v Speaker 2>That's been picked up across the board by the media,

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<v Speaker 2>by other politicians and has become a bit of a

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<v Speaker 2>focus in politics. This week we heard from Barnaby Joyce,

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<v Speaker 2>who is the Coalition. He made his position pretty clear

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<v Speaker 2>this week and We included this in a newsletter this week.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, you don't want to pay for someone to

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<v Speaker 2>have a wild all night between the sheets on the

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<v Speaker 2>tax payers ticket, right.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's very clear perspectives from within the halls of

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<v Speaker 1>Parliament House in Canberra as to why sexual services should

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<v Speaker 1>be excluded from the NDAs in this effort to cut

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<v Speaker 1>down how much this program costs. But that's only one

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<v Speaker 1>side of the argument. The other side of the argument

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<v Speaker 1>is why people think it's a necessary part of the program.

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<v Speaker 1>What are those arguments?

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<v Speaker 2>There are a couple. I'll start with what Women with

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<v Speaker 2>Disabilities Australia has said. So they believe that the NDIS

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<v Speaker 2>should support the sexual expression and autonomy of people with disability.

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<v Speaker 2>They said, I'm quoting here, people with disabilities should be

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<v Speaker 2>able to access funded supports that enable us to realize

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<v Speaker 2>our rights to sexual health, information, sexual pleasure, expression, association, freedom,

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<v Speaker 2>autonomy and self determination. And I think the realizing our

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<v Speaker 2>rights part is really interesting. There are a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>comments when we uploaded this story to Instagram about people

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<v Speaker 2>talking about access to sex and access to safe sex

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<v Speaker 2>as a right. So that's something that's been reflected here

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<v Speaker 2>by this advocacy group. I think if we take a

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<v Speaker 2>step back more generally, some of the arguments that are

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<v Speaker 2>emerging is advocates pointing to examples of people with psychosocial

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<v Speaker 2>disabilities who learn about safe and respectful relationships in these settings.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you're removing that ability, what is left Where

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<v Speaker 2>can they be learning how to have safe sex, how

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<v Speaker 2>to have respectful relationships, all of these things. So that's

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<v Speaker 2>another argument. Another one, and I saw this again a

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<v Speaker 2>lot in the comment section, is about what advocates believe

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<v Speaker 2>is a double standard. Ok. So, viagra, which is an

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<v Speaker 2>erectile dysfunction pill, is supported by the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme.

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<v Speaker 1>So that basically means that indirectly taxpayers are subsidizing cost

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<v Speaker 1>of viagra.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, so the PBS subsidizes that drug, And the logic

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<v Speaker 2>that follows for these advocates is that if taxpayers are

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<v Speaker 2>subsidizing that cost to help men have better sex, then

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<v Speaker 2>why are people with disability treated any differently?

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting in the.

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<v Speaker 2>Walls of Parliament, you said before that we have got

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<v Speaker 2>this pretty clear image. The Greens depart from that view.

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<v Speaker 2>So we heard from the Green spokesperson Jordan steel John

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<v Speaker 2>this week. He said that the reforms are deeply unpopular

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<v Speaker 2>and damaging, and that they fail to acknowledge the needs

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<v Speaker 2>of people with disability, said Minister Shorten is supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>be supporting disabled people and their families, not cutting their services.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the other view that is worth mentioning is

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<v Speaker 1>some of the content that I've read that represent the

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<v Speaker 1>view of people who work in this space specifically trained

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<v Speaker 1>to facilitate good experiences with people with a disability, and

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<v Speaker 1>their view of the fact that it takes sensitivity and

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<v Speaker 1>it takes particular skills to sure that those people have

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<v Speaker 1>positive experiences. I think that's a perspective worth including as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely worth including, and definitely a really interesting topic. I

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<v Speaker 2>guess where the response to that lies is should that

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<v Speaker 2>be taxpayer funded or should that be privately funded by

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<v Speaker 2>the individual themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a really interesting topic playing out. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I just keep having that number in my mind of

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<v Speaker 1>the under three hundred requests that you said had been

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<v Speaker 1>filed in the last twelve months in this program of

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<v Speaker 1>over six hundred thousand people.

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<v Speaker 2>Me too, and I had this kind of inner dialogue

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<v Speaker 2>about whether we should do a podcast episode on this,

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<v Speaker 2>but I wanted.

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<v Speaker 1>To ask you like, yeah, why are we covering it?

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<v Speaker 2>The place I got to and I think some people

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<v Speaker 2>might criticize this, and I think that that's fair. The

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<v Speaker 2>place I got to is that a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>have seen headlines about this, and a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>are going to see headlines about this, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>that taking the time to explain it is really important

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<v Speaker 2>here so that people don't come to conclusions that aren't

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<v Speaker 2>based on fact. But there is a lot to be

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<v Speaker 2>said about the fact that, you know, the NDIS does

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<v Speaker 2>so much good, It is so important. There are lots

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<v Speaker 2>of people who aren't getting what they need right now,

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<v Speaker 2>and perhaps you know, focusing the media cycle and focusing

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<v Speaker 2>you know, political attention on this is taking away from

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<v Speaker 2>the attention that is needed for so many people across

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<v Speaker 2>the board, and also at times could be distracting from

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<v Speaker 2>that great work.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, and just quickly, just so we all have clarity

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<v Speaker 1>on it. This is still yet to pass.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct, So the bill is in front of the Senate

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<v Speaker 2>at the moment. The Greens and Coalition voted to refer

0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.040
<v Speaker 2>it and its amendments to a committee for a review.

0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.079
<v Speaker 2>But that's a fairly standard thing that just means interrogating

0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.959
<v Speaker 2>it a bit more. We did hear from Barnaby Joyce

0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:41.280
<v Speaker 2>that despite voting to have that bill reviewed, the Coalition

0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.240
<v Speaker 2>is likely to support it. If that does happen, then

0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:48.000
<v Speaker 2>the legislation will become law. Anything can happen, who knows,

0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.000
<v Speaker 2>but it does look fairly likely that it will pass

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<v Speaker 2>the Senate.

0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.280
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for taking us through that, Zara. A very interesting

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<v Speaker 1>topic about a kind of area of policy that has

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<v Speaker 1>so many complexities and I'm glad we could explore some

0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.080
<v Speaker 1>of those perspectives and thank you for joining us today

0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.480
<v Speaker 1>on the Daily ODS. Really appreciate you supporting independent media

0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.480
<v Speaker 1>in Australia, particularly youth media and what's been a difficult

0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.640
<v Speaker 1>couple of weeks for youth media across Australia. If you

0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.160
<v Speaker 1>enjoy this podcast, I'd love if you could just throw

0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.240
<v Speaker 1>it in the group chat, open your WhatsApp, open your slack,

0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:20.520
<v Speaker 1>if you're at work, maybe Facebook and share this episode

0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.439
<v Speaker 1>with people around you who you think trust your judgment

0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.679
<v Speaker 1>to send them some good stuff. We'll be back again tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 1>Until then, have a good day. My name is Lily

0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.760
<v Speaker 1>Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkuttin woman from

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<v Speaker 1>Gadigol country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is

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<v Speaker 1>recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and pays

0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.920
<v Speaker 1>respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait island and nations.

0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.160
<v Speaker 1>We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:49.440
<v Speaker 1>both past and present.