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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 1: Oh now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 2: the eleventh of July.

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Speaker 1: I'm zara, I'm sam.

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Speaker 2: Should NDIS funds be able to be used on sexual services?

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Speaker 2: That's a question being debated this week after NDIS Minister

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Speaker 2: Bill Shorten said access to those services would be removed

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Speaker 2: if draft legislation is passed in the Senate. In today's

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Speaker 2: deep dive, we're going to explain why the government is

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Speaker 2: making changes to the NDIS, the arguments for removing access

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Speaker 2: to those sexual services, and why some disability advocates are

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Speaker 2: against the move. But first, here's what's making news today.

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Speaker 1: The federal government has announced a new scorecard system to

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Speaker 1: rate employment providers for people with disabilities. The measure services

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Speaker 1: will be given a public rating out of three based

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Speaker 1: on their quality, efficiency and effectiveness. Performance will be reviewed

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Speaker 1: every three months. Social Services Minister Amanda Rishworth says she

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Speaker 1: wants to see quote continual improvement from employers. The measure

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Speaker 1: is aimed at boosting employment opportunities.

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Speaker 2: Two men are face court over smuggling more than two

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Speaker 2: hundred and forty kilos of drugs into Australia concealed inside

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Speaker 2: furniture and appliances. Federal police sees two hundred and eleven

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Speaker 2: kilos of cocaine and thirty kilos of ketamine across multiple searches.

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Speaker 2: The drugs are believed to be linked to an international

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Speaker 2: crime syndicate and have a combined estimated street value of

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Speaker 2: over seventy five million dollars. The men, aged thirty nine

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Speaker 2: and twenty three, appeared in court in Sydney yesterday. Police

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Speaker 2: say they're facing a maximum sentence of life in prison.

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Speaker 1: Tropical storm Beryl has killed at least eight people and

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Speaker 1: caused major dammage in the US states of Texas and Louisiana.

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Speaker 1: The hurricane battered parts of the Caribbean last week before

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Speaker 1: moving north, bringing gal force winds, heavy rain, and severe

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Speaker 1: flooding to America's southern states, where millions still remain without power.

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Speaker 1: It's been downgraded to a post tropical cyclone as it

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Speaker 1: moves northeast, with intense rainfall expected.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news, a man in the US has

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Speaker 2: received a new voice box in one of the first

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Speaker 2: successful transplants of its kind after being diagnosed with larynx cancer.

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Speaker 2: Treatment meant the man lost his voice and could only

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Speaker 2: breathe through a hole in his neck. Four months after

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Speaker 2: an experimental larynx transplant led by the Mayo Clinic, he's

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Speaker 2: now able to speak, swallow, and breathe. The patient signed

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Speaker 2: up for the trial and the hopes of being able

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Speaker 2: to read bedtime stories to his granddaughter. People with disability

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Speaker 2: will no longer be able to use National Disability Insurance Scheme.

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Speaker 2: So that's NDAA funding to access what's called sexual services,

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Speaker 2: and that is under a series of reforms to the system.

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Speaker 2: It was confirmed this week by NDIS Minister Bill Shorten,

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Speaker 2: who said on Sky News that sex work would be

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Speaker 2: removed from the list of approved services if the proposed

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Speaker 2: legislation to quote tidy up the scheme passes Parliament.

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Speaker 1: This is a topic that when I've been reading online

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Speaker 1: about it over the last couple of days, has really

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Speaker 1: strong views on both sides. I want to go into

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Speaker 1: what those views are. But before we do, I mean

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Speaker 1: tidy up the NDIS. There's a couple of terms being

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Speaker 1: thrown around. We need some clarity on give me some

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Speaker 1: context on the actual NDIS itself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. The NDIS, as I said, is the

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Speaker 2: National Disability Insurance Scheme. It provides support and services for

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Speaker 2: Australians with disability. The way it works is that individuals

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Speaker 2: are allocated a personal budget and that's calculated on what

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Speaker 2: is reasonable or necessary for each person. Funding includes access

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Speaker 2: to things like community services, transport, vehicle modifications and help

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Speaker 2: with kind of data day activities. It was launched in

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Speaker 2: twenty thirteen and it was completely rolled out only in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty. There are now over six hundred and ten

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Speaker 2: thousand Australians to receive support from the NDIS.

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Speaker 1: And I get an interesting perspective on this story because

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Speaker 1: I'm married to somebody who writes NDIS reports and I

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Speaker 1: kind of see how much paperwork goes into the back

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Speaker 1: end of these. So I have sex work services been

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Speaker 1: available then for people who get through the qualification process

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Speaker 1: and do qualify for the NDIS.

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Speaker 2: So not the whole time. Specialized sex services have been

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Speaker 2: available through the NDIS since twenty twenty and that was

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Speaker 2: the result actually of a court case that was brought

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Speaker 2: by a forty year old woman with multiple sclerosis who

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Speaker 2: was denied funding for a trained sex worker. She then

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Speaker 2: launched a legal challenge to that rejection and she argued

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Speaker 2: that the NDIS Act doesn't explicitly exclude sex services. Ultimately,

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Speaker 2: the Federal court ruled in her favor, and it found

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Speaker 2: that there was no implied exclusion of such activities, and

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Speaker 2: in our opinion, the better view is that they are

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Speaker 2: intended to be included. So that being a direct quote

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Speaker 2: from that Federal court decision.

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Speaker 1: Can you give me a sense of like how prevalent

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Speaker 1: this is in the NDAs, Like, is this rolled out

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Speaker 1: to everybody?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that's a really important thing to focus

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Speaker 2: on because I think when we talk about stories like

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Speaker 2: this on a national stage and people have very strong opinions,

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Speaker 2: it kind of seems like it's widespread, it's everywhere. That's

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Speaker 2: absolutely not the case. So I do want to give

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Speaker 2: you a sense of the numbers. And that's just going

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Speaker 2: off Bill Shorten, As I said, who's the NDIS miniesot

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Speaker 2: what he has said this week? He told the ABC

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Speaker 2: that there have been two hundred and twenty eight requests

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Speaker 2: for sexual activity support in the twelve months to the

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Speaker 2: end of April, but that he and I'm going to

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Speaker 2: quote here, said none of them were granted.

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Speaker 1: Right, So in a pool of six hundred and ten

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Speaker 1: thousand people receiving NDIS funding. There were two hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty eight requests and we don't think, according to the minister,

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Speaker 1: that any of them were granted. Correct, So why is

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Speaker 1: it a topic for us to talk about today.

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Speaker 2: So the reason that we're talking about it is because

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Speaker 2: the government is trying to pass this legislation through the Senate,

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Speaker 2: and that legislation is kind of a suite of reforms

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Speaker 2: that's broadly aimed at cutting costs associated with the NDIS.

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Speaker 2: The federal budget has predicted that NDIS costs will rise

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Speaker 2: from forty four point three billion dollars this year to

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Speaker 2: more than ninety billion dollars by the end of the decade.

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Speaker 2: That is a huge, huge spend when it comes to

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Speaker 2: the government's budget. And so right now the Albanese government

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Speaker 2: is looking at those costs and trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: ways to bring down those costs across the board, and

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Speaker 2: that's why they've introduced this legislation that I said is

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Speaker 2: currently in the Senate, and that's aiming to save fourteen

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Speaker 2: point four billion dollars over the next four years. And

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Speaker 2: the way that the government is looking at really bringing

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Speaker 2: down those costs is by doing a number of things.

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Speaker 2: That includes streamlining the goods and services that people can

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Speaker 2: access with NDIS funding.

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Speaker 1: And so if we zoom out a little bit and

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Speaker 1: look at the broader context of where this discussion is

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Speaker 1: taking place, I remember in the budget address by Jim

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Speaker 1: Chalmers there was discussions about waste in the program and

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Speaker 1: an aging population and there's clearly those projections you've just

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Speaker 1: taken us through and they're kind of trying to tighten

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Speaker 1: the belt.

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Speaker 2: Here exactly, and that's the context that this conversation has emerged.

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Speaker 2: So Bill Shorten, as I said, confirmed this week that

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Speaker 2: sex services don't pass the test, is what he said directly,

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Speaker 2: and that they will be cut from this NDIS funding

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Speaker 2: as part of these cost saving measures. I'll quote him here.

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Speaker 2: He said, what we do want to do is make

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Speaker 2: sure people have the ability to get things that are

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Speaker 2: reasonable and necessary. The rules have been a bit loose

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Speaker 2: at the margins, I think for a number of reasons.

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Speaker 2: That's been picked up across the board by the media,

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Speaker 2: by other politicians and has become a bit of a

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Speaker 2: focus in politics. This week we heard from Barnaby Joyce,

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Speaker 2: who is the Coalition. He made his position pretty clear

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Speaker 2: this week and We included this in a newsletter this week.

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Speaker 2: He said, you don't want to pay for someone to

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Speaker 2: have a wild all night between the sheets on the

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Speaker 2: tax payers ticket, right.

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Speaker 1: So there's very clear perspectives from within the halls of

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Speaker 1: Parliament House in Canberra as to why sexual services should

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Speaker 1: be excluded from the NDAs in this effort to cut

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Speaker 1: down how much this program costs. But that's only one

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Speaker 1: side of the argument. The other side of the argument

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Speaker 1: is why people think it's a necessary part of the program.

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Speaker 1: What are those arguments?

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Speaker 2: There are a couple. I'll start with what Women with

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Speaker 2: Disabilities Australia has said. So they believe that the NDIS

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Speaker 2: should support the sexual expression and autonomy of people with disability.

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Speaker 2: They said, I'm quoting here, people with disabilities should be

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Speaker 2: able to access funded supports that enable us to realize

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Speaker 2: our rights to sexual health, information, sexual pleasure, expression, association, freedom,

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Speaker 2: autonomy and self determination. And I think the realizing our

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Speaker 2: rights part is really interesting. There are a lot of

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Speaker 2: comments when we uploaded this story to Instagram about people

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Speaker 2: talking about access to sex and access to safe sex

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Speaker 2: as a right. So that's something that's been reflected here

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Speaker 2: by this advocacy group. I think if we take a

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Speaker 2: step back more generally, some of the arguments that are

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Speaker 2: emerging is advocates pointing to examples of people with psychosocial

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Speaker 2: disabilities who learn about safe and respectful relationships in these settings.

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Speaker 2: And if you're removing that ability, what is left Where

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Speaker 2: can they be learning how to have safe sex, how

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Speaker 2: to have respectful relationships, all of these things. So that's

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Speaker 2: another argument. Another one, and I saw this again a

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Speaker 2: lot in the comment section, is about what advocates believe

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Speaker 2: is a double standard. Ok. So, viagra, which is an

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Speaker 2: erectile dysfunction pill, is supported by the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme.

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Speaker 1: So that basically means that indirectly taxpayers are subsidizing cost

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Speaker 1: of viagra.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, so the PBS subsidizes that drug, And the logic

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Speaker 2: that follows for these advocates is that if taxpayers are

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Speaker 2: subsidizing that cost to help men have better sex, then

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Speaker 2: why are people with disability treated any differently?

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Speaker 1: Interesting in the.

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Speaker 2: Walls of Parliament, you said before that we have got

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Speaker 2: this pretty clear image. The Greens depart from that view.

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Speaker 2: So we heard from the Green spokesperson Jordan steel John

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Speaker 2: this week. He said that the reforms are deeply unpopular

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Speaker 2: and damaging, and that they fail to acknowledge the needs

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Speaker 2: of people with disability, said Minister Shorten is supposed to

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Speaker 2: be supporting disabled people and their families, not cutting their services.

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Speaker 1: I think the other view that is worth mentioning is

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Speaker 1: some of the content that I've read that represent the

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Speaker 1: view of people who work in this space specifically trained

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Speaker 1: to facilitate good experiences with people with a disability, and

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Speaker 1: their view of the fact that it takes sensitivity and

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Speaker 1: it takes particular skills to sure that those people have

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Speaker 1: positive experiences. I think that's a perspective worth including as well.

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Speaker 2: Definitely worth including, and definitely a really interesting topic. I

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Speaker 2: guess where the response to that lies is should that

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Speaker 2: be taxpayer funded or should that be privately funded by

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Speaker 2: the individual themselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really interesting topic playing out. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just keep having that number in my mind of

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Speaker 1: the under three hundred requests that you said had been

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Speaker 1: filed in the last twelve months in this program of

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Speaker 1: over six hundred thousand people.

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Speaker 2: Me too, and I had this kind of inner dialogue

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Speaker 2: about whether we should do a podcast episode on this,

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Speaker 2: but I wanted.

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Speaker 1: To ask you like, yeah, why are we covering it?

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Speaker 2: The place I got to and I think some people

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Speaker 2: might criticize this, and I think that that's fair. The

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Speaker 2: place I got to is that a lot of people

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Speaker 2: have seen headlines about this, and a lot of people

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Speaker 2: are going to see headlines about this, and I think

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Speaker 2: that taking the time to explain it is really important

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Speaker 2: here so that people don't come to conclusions that aren't

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Speaker 2: based on fact. But there is a lot to be

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Speaker 2: said about the fact that, you know, the NDIS does

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Speaker 2: so much good, It is so important. There are lots

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Speaker 2: of people who aren't getting what they need right now,

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Speaker 2: and perhaps you know, focusing the media cycle and focusing

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Speaker 2: you know, political attention on this is taking away from

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Speaker 2: the attention that is needed for so many people across

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Speaker 2: the board, and also at times could be distracting from

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Speaker 2: that great work.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and just quickly, just so we all have clarity

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Speaker 1: on it. This is still yet to pass.

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Speaker 2: Correct, So the bill is in front of the Senate

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Speaker 2: at the moment. The Greens and Coalition voted to refer

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Speaker 2: it and its amendments to a committee for a review.

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Speaker 2: But that's a fairly standard thing that just means interrogating

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Speaker 2: it a bit more. We did hear from Barnaby Joyce

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Speaker 2: that despite voting to have that bill reviewed, the Coalition

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Speaker 2: is likely to support it. If that does happen, then

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Speaker 2: the legislation will become law. Anything can happen, who knows,

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Speaker 2: but it does look fairly likely that it will pass

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Speaker 2: the Senate.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for taking us through that, Zara. A very interesting

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Speaker 1: topic about a kind of area of policy that has

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Speaker 1: so many complexities and I'm glad we could explore some

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Speaker 1: of those perspectives and thank you for joining us today

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Speaker 1: on the Daily ODS. Really appreciate you supporting independent media

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Speaker 1: in Australia, particularly youth media and what's been a difficult

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks for youth media across Australia. If you

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Speaker 1: enjoy this podcast, I'd love if you could just throw

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Speaker 1: it in the group chat, open your WhatsApp, open your slack,

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Speaker 1: if you're at work, maybe Facebook and share this episode

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Speaker 1: with people around you who you think trust your judgment

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Speaker 1: to send them some good stuff. We'll be back again tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Until then, have a good day. My name is Lily

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Speaker 1: Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkuttin woman from

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Speaker 1: Gadigol country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is

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Speaker 1: recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and pays

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Speaker 1: respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait island and nations.

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Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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Speaker 1: both past and present.