WEBVTT - 20: Confirmation Bias 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:06.360 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:11.760 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:18.960 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:29.360 lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:35.880 devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:45.200 mom bags pack car running her daughters strapped into the backseat. 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.040 Mom told me that she needed to go back inside 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:49.839 to grab something. 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:50.640 Panic. 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.199 Amy is dead, sir By, Amy's Dead? 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:54.560 Eight Confusion World. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.840 About five minutes they said, N's a suicide. One hundred percent. 0:00:58.160 --> 0:00:59.240 This is emmersing. 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:05.399 What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy? 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:12.480 The Truth About Amy. 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.880 Episode twenty. 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.040 I'm Liam Bartlett and I'm Alison Sandy. 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.319 So our friends at seven News and The West Australian 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:34.240 have hit up Police Minister Reese Whitby about Amy Wensley's 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.800 case at a recent doorstop, and as a result they 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:42.320 published an article in the newspaper the following day saying this. 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.760 Police Minister Reese Whitby has refused to be drawn on 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.080 whether he thought the Corruption and Crime Commission should launch 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.840 its own investigation into the death of Amy Wensley after 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:57.760 her family called for a fresh probe in a letter 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:02.160 accusing WA police of attempting to cover up mismanagement of 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.640 the case. When asked on Monday whether he agreed with 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:10.000 miss Wensley's families call for a Triple C investigation, mister 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.840 Whitby said it wasn't a decision for him. That's a 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.480 matter for the Triple C. I'm not going to enter 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.000 into their area, he said. The Triple C is distinct 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.079 and independent of government, and they make their own decisions. 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.480 What I will say is there is a current police 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.520 investigation into that death, and there's also a one million 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.880 dollar reward available. So police are still taking this seriously, 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:39.800 still pursuing the issue. I'd urge anyone if you have 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.320 any information, if you have any evidence that could solve 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:47.000 this issue, please do so. When asked whether he believed 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:52.000 police had mishandled the original investigation, mister Whitby said investigators 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.720 were taking the cold case very seriously. In the letter 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.680 to Triple C Commissioner John mckeckney, obtained by Channel seven's 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:04.840 Invasigitive podcast The Truth about Amy, miss Wensley's aunt Anna Davy, 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.880 accused officers of applying bias to try to manipulate as 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:10.000 suicide finding. 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:15.160 So that's the letter that Anna read out in episode seventeen. However, 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.800 we did have to redact a little bit of it 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:22.560 for legal reasons. But all of you who have been 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.360 following this podcast and listening throughout would be very aware 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:31.520 that Anna Davey, Amy's aunt, calls a spade a shovel. 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.200 There's no sugarcoating anything she says, is there. 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:41.160 I urge you to please undertake a new investigation into 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:45.000 Western Australian Police's handling of the case of Amy Wensley 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.160 relating to Operation Junde, the Homicide Squad's attempt to have 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.840 an officer in charge of the coronial investigation treat Amy's 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.840 case as non suspicious, and the obvious bias by senior 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:00.200 police officers displayed at the coronial inquest. 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:07.200 Yes, Liam, Anna's no shrinking Violet, which makes me wonder 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:09.600 whether she actually is your art. 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.119 Well funny that I have thought about adopting her officially 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.360 through the channels. I mean, I'm more than happy to 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.919 extend the family for Anna's purposes, solely to take her on. 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.719 I love Anna, I think she's fantastic She's a smart, 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:25.839 strong woman with strong opinions and she doesn't hold back. 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:27.640 I think it's fantastic. 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.279 Now, Al, I've viewed the footage of the presser, the 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.520 press conference, and while I wouldn't exactly call Reese Whitby 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.240 dismissive or evasive, I wouldn't go that far. It is 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:41.159 clear though that he wouldn't be drawn on what he 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:46.039 thought of the allegations of police misconduct and of course 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.000 the serious implications of that. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.719 Have a listened to yourself, Abe Wensley, who the evidence 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:55.080 points two was murdered, Yes, three, Policing force split off 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.800 the points to the factor not murder. The family wants 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.320 a triple see you investigate. Would you support that? 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:04.359 Well, that's a matter for the Triple C. I'm not 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:09.080 going to enter into their area. It's a distinct. The 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:12.320 Triple C is distinct and independent of government, and they 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.440 make their own decisions. I will say there is a 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:20.440 current police investigation into that death, and there's also a 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.240 one million dollar reward available, so police are still taking 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:28.599 this seriously, still pursuing the issue, and if the Triple 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:32.680 C are remind to investigate, that is a matter for them. 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:34.760 Do you accept that the police didn't cover themselves in 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.880 glory in those investigations, these earlier investigations. 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.400 I'm not going to go through the issues of the investigation. 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:46.320 There is a live investigation currently and I'd urge anyone 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:50.120 if you have any information, if you have any evidence 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:55.040 it could help to solve this issue, please do so. 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.520 There is a million dollar reward out which is an 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.480 indication of the seriousness that is this issue is being regarded. 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:05.400 But as for the Triple C, that's matter for them. 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:07.080 You're the new minister, right, No, but have you been 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.919 briefed on that case, on her death and those earlier 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:12.640 inquiries and the mistakes that were made. 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:13.240 Yes, I had. 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:17.880 So is it your judgment that they did bugger it up? 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:18.800 Jeff. 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.960 I'll hold my own counsel. I have my own communications 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.640 with the commissioner. But I think when there's an issue 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.640 that is live, it's best that the police be allowed 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.279 to get on and make their investigation. And if the 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:35.120 Triple C c fit to make an inquiry or look 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.000 at anything in particular, that's a matter for them. 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:40.840 Great job to Jeff Parry from the Seven Years Room 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:42.359 for his persistence there. 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.200 Okay, So that's the police Minister Whitby, the new Police Minister, 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.960 at the press conference, as we said, now just before 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.240 we go on, let's go back to what we've just 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.640 told you about the report on mister Whitby and how 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.400 he was quoted originally, and he said, just to remind you, 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:02.080 mister Whitby said investigators were taking the cold very seriously. Well, 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:03.680 how would you know that if he doesn't want to 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.680 get involved. I mean, he said at the start of 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.040 the report to our reporters from seven Years and from 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.880 the West Australian. He made a point of saying, look, 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:14.400 this is a matter for the Triple C. I'm not 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.560 going to enter into their arena. That's not for me 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.160 as a police minister and go through with the whole 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:25.840 Charter and all their obligations not only under the Act, 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.640 but you know, basically to make sure every single policeman, 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.840 man or woman in the state does their job properly. 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.080 And he is the minister, so he's got the ultimate responsibility. 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.480 That's why he gets paid the big bucks. That's why 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:42.120 ministers get extra money on top of back benches, right 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.720 because they've got all this extra responsibility. So here's the 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.480 new Police Minister getting quite hoity toity about his role 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.120 in the scheme of things. Oh, I'm not going to 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.600 really interfere. It's not my job to interfere. It's your 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.000 job to make sure the police do the right thing. 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:00.040 And a member of the public, someone who helps to 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.720 pay your way, just come along and point it out 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:08.080 some very very serious issues about what they say is 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.160 manipulation by the police. So later on he says, but 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.600 hang on a minute, I know that the police are 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.920 taking this cold case very seriously. Well, that's very interesting, 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.080 because if you think that it's absolutely someone else's territory, 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.640 what conversations have you had, Minister, with the police about 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.760 this case in order to support them, not the members 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.800 of the public. What conversations have you had. What sort 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:39.079 of assurances have the police given you who are reinvestigating 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.880 this case, to allow you to be able to say, 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:47.480 don't worry, the investigators are taking this very seriously. Has 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.280 he talked to the investigators themselves in order to form 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:52.839 the confidence to be able to come out and say 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:58.199 the investigators were taking the cold case very seriously. What 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.720 sort of experience does he have with investigative procedures to 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.800 know that they are very serious? I mean there's a 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.160 whole raft of questions that come out from that statement. 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.000 But in the meantime he doesn't want to get involved 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.120 with the Triple C. As a minister, if you don't 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:17.079 think that a member of the public is being treated fairly, 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.160 especially in a judicial sense, and you have authority in 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:24.200 that area, then you could take all sorts of measures 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.760 to make sure to make sure, doubly sure, triply sure 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:33.880 that everything is in order. The government have the power 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:38.360 and often exercise it in many, many other ways, mostly 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.880 for their own reasons, for their own political reasons, to 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:45.520 jump up and say this demands a parliamentary inquiry, or 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:48.439 let's have a judicial inquiry because we need to get 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:50.640 to the bottom of this. They can do all that 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:51.120 and more. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.800 Well, it's not unprecedented either, is it. I mean, I've 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:54.840 seen it in other states. 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.959 Absolutely, absolutely, totally, totally. You're one hundred percent right. 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.240 Well, we'll get to a bit more of that later. 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.160 For me, I still haven't heard back from Waypole, even 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.480 though I was assured that they would get back to me. 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:12.040 But again, not surprised or the Attorney General quickly's no 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.120 longer there. There's a new attorney general. This is like 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.000 kryptonite for Superman. I think not that any of them 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.559 are Superman, but nobody wants to touch this. I did, though, 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.400 get a response kind of from the Crime and Corruption 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.360 Commission in that I was advised there wasn't a response 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:31.720 as a Triple C doesn't comment on what it is 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.880 and isn't investigating. That's completely consistent with agencies of that 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.800 nature throughout the nation. But it doesn't stop me trying. 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.240 And I would be negligent in my duty if I 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.640 didn't go to them. So that's the latest communication from 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:49.040 authorities I've had on Amy Wensley. Now a completely different 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:53.080 story in relation to Courtney Anderson. Liam you'll remember this 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.800 case from last week. Sure listeners will recall her family 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:58.600 going into great detail with us. 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.040 They're saying she suffered a decade of physical and emotional abuse, 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:04.600 which they don't believe was fully considered. 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:06.680 And the phone calls would start and it would just 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.320 go and go and go and go, and it was 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.200 just argument after argument after argument. Who are you with? 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.320 You're not with your parents, You're cheating on me. He 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.680 would choke her with his hand round her throat while 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:19.520 he was driving. 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.240 It's one of those cases that really gets under your skin, 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:27.040 particularly given their history. Courtney was fourteen when she met 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.880 Ashley Campbell fourteen, who was about twenty or twenty one 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.720 at the time. Her family discussed how she'd written in 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:36.520 her diary how he'd take her out, and she was 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:40.520 excited about that. He was Courtney's first real boyfriend and 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.000 much older than her. 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:43.520 A bit of an imbalance, there, isn't that. 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.079 Yeah, Well, it's not hard to imagine what the power 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.360 dynamic would have been like in their relationship, particularly after 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:54.960 eleven years. And then there's the circumstances of her death. 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.040 As soon as we knew he was in the car, 0:11:58.040 --> 0:11:59.240 alarm bells were ringing. 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.880 Courtney paid Anderson died on April first last year. The 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.200 official police release said she exited a moving car on 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:07.079 the Bruce Highway. 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.120 Anyway, I reached out to the Queensland Attorney General Deb 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.400 Frecklington liamb and you know what happened. Her chief of 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.440 staff called me, discussed the background he had from the department. 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.319 I gave him a description of what the family told 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.760 me and fought it through the documents they provided on 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.160 the case. And guess what the family met with the 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:27.959 Attorney General a week later. 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:32.880 Wonders never cease. So Deb Frecklington, the Attorney General of 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.520 Queensland's doing a job properly. It's being professional, isn't it. 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:37.079 Isn't it? 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.400 I mean Attorney General Frecklington has a very important position, yea, 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:44.800 the state's top law officer. It's really crucial, you know, 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:47.079 like a huge responsibility. 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:48.400 But there you go. 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.360 She finds time to deal with a constituent who was hurting. 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:57.840 Yeah right, family members who are drowning in all sorts 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.440 of emotions, and she does the right thing and she 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.360 sits down and she talks to them and she provides 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.520 an avenue for them to meet the person at the top. Fantastic. 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.679 I mean that's called doing your job. And you can 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.599 have the same position in two different states, operating on 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.440 a completely different basis. So what is that That's down 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.800 to the person, isn't it. It's down to personal attitudes 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:23.840 and ethics. And dare I say integrity? 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:28.080 Funnily enough that you mentioned integrity Lamb because she is 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.800 actually also the Minister for integrity. 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.840 H then go, but hang on, wait there's more. There 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.800 is no Minister for Integrity in the West Australian cabinet. 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:40.240 That portfolio doesn't exist. 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:42.560 Yeah, I don't know if it's ever existed, has it? 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:44.880 Liam? No, not that you have to be called that 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:45.360 to have it. 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:47.360 Yeah, well, I mean they don't have a Minister for 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:49.960 emotion or you know, minister for seriousness or a Minister 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.200 for jocularity or a Minister for ridiculousness either. But still 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.319 people manage to go through that gamut of emotions in parliament. 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.120 I've seen it. I've witnessed it. 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.200 But yeah, maybe, you know, I don't know, maybe people 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.040 would take it more seriously. But again, you know, good 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.320 on the deb Frecklington. I think that's fantastic. You know, 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.160 we should see more of it. That's very human and 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:10.520 coming from that position in parliament terrific. 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.040 If there was a Party of Integrity, I would vote 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.720 for them every election. But anyway, a disclaimer, I should 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:17.760 mention this disclaim. 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:18.040 I do. 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.800 Oh yes, I do know Frecklington's chief of staff because, 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:26.280 like Reese Whitby, he used to work at seven Except 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.720 Ben Murphy is approachable and we often talk about going 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.040 over to the dark side when people move into politics 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.120 and political advisors or media advisors for politics or business 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.760 and things like that. We often joke about it. But 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.040 many of them really do change when they move over, 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:43.520 don't they. 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:45.360 Oh yeah, oh yeah. 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.200 Well some of them, I will say, and I'm not 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.880 pointing to anyone, but some of them become ego driven, 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:57.080 self indulgent gatekeepers of information that they dispense sparingly in 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:01.520 an attempt to manipulate and control what and how news 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:05.480 is reported. I mean, we're not the paparazzi here. We're 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.560 not trying to get a picture of some Hollywood style 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.800 at skinny dipping or something. We're just trying, Limb, to 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.200 provide a voice for people who have been screwed over 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.000 by the system, for families whose loved ones have been 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.240 lost in the most terrible way and deserve to have 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:26.680 their deaths investigated properly and treated fairly by authorities. Shouldn't 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:30.560 we all be wanting to help these people, Limb, Everyone 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:33.920 can win out of this situation, except the baddies. Isn't 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.800 that something we can all be proud of? I just 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.920 don't understand why this is an US and them situation? 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.640 Why can't we work together? Why are people with power 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:47.000 blinded by arrogance and what I can only imagine are 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:47.920 selfish motives? 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:52.080 That's an interesting question al. Yeah, I'll take that as 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:57.080 rhetorical because I don't understand either. I don't understand either. 0:15:58.200 --> 0:15:59.480 I think we know in. 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:01.200 These sort of said suations, if we get a result, 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.520 that's the whole point, isn't it. Yeah, it does matter 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:07.640 who claims credit. But I think a lot of times 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.440 I think it's all about claiming credit. I think that's 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.000 the way people perceive it to be, which is a shame. 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:15.760 Sorry, sad Well, I'm happy to give them complete credit, 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.160 should they take it seriously. I mean, because as we've 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.400 seen right through this, there are some really good officers 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:23.360 who you know, you can shine a spotlight on and 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.520 say well done. Unfortunately the organization hasn't done that. But 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.080 before we move on, let me update you with some correspondents. 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:35.760 The family also received from the former Attorney General Shannon Fentaman, 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:39.560 who's now in opposition, as well as offering support from 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.200 her office to help frame the letter to the state 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:46.680 coroner seeking inquest. Miss Fenterman said she'd also write one 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:51.920 herself supporting this. My last response on Courtney Anderson's case 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.680 was from Queensland Police Service, which stated. 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.240 Police have finalized their investigation into the death of a 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.840 twenty eight year old woman. No criminal charges have been laid. 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:04.800 The matter was referred to the coroner and as such 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.480 it would be inappropriate for Queensland Police Service to comment further. 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.920 I replied that I was actually asking about the apparent 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:15.480 internal investigation into the handling of the case, and then 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:19.159 was told there was quote no current internal complaints or 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.560 investigations in relation to this matter and the matter had 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:26.680 been reviewed, but the investigation would not be reopened at 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:27.320 this time. 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.679 Well it's pretty stock standard, isn't it. Yeah, but that 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:32.960 I mean that could that could change on the you know, 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:34.040 in the blink of an eye. 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.720 Yeah. I think that this will definitely get an in 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.000 question Liam. I have no doubt in my mind that 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.480 it meets the criteria. 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:42.680 Criteria absolutely, yeah. 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:48.840 Yeah, and the criteria is unexplainable, very strange, weird, mysterious 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.160 and should be explained. Further questions to be answered that 0:17:53.160 --> 0:18:05.720 that category are Yeah. Anyway, now moving on, Given the 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:09.120 scope of Amy's story, I think it's good to get 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.800 perspective from someone who has not only been a police 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:17.600 officer but also a private investigator and a journalist talking 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:21.199 about Duncan McNabb and Duncan's career has spanned something like 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.200 fifty years. He's also a renowned author and has covered 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.600 current affairs and news investigations for the ABC for nine 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.760 and for the Seven network. Duncan is author of many 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:34.920 of our listeners will relate to at least one of these. 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.400 Duncan has authored The Usual Suspect, The Life of Abe Saffron, 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.680 That was a Ripper Getting Away with Murder, and most 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.840 recently Roger Rogerson from hero cop to convicted Murderer. 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.720 Yeah, this was great talking to Duncan. Well, thank you 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.800 so much, Duncan. So first of all, I'd like to 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:54.240 ask a little bit about your background. 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.120 I started off in law school and the courts actually, 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.600 and after failing law skill comprehensively, I thinkrobably been kicked 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:02.960 out more law skills than anyone else in Australia history. 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:05.920 Probably a good idea really. I joined the New South 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.280 Wales Cops, spent nine years there, stepped across to do 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.800 criminal defense afterwards because it's very hand little a lot 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.360 of major criminal defense work, and that sort of gave 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:19.120 me a taste of how involved the media are in 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.080 prosecutions and in defense for that matter. So that's how 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:23.800 I sort of ended up in the media thirty eight 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:24.280 years ago. 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.840 Not many of us in the media have been police officers. 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.520 So can you tell me why you didn't stay a 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:31.240 police officer. 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:32.919 Well, I didn't stay at police officer because I was 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:35.320 in New South Wales at the time of staggering corruption, 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.000 and I was working at internal affairs at the very 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:39.720 end of it, and I was seeing things happening, and 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.000 I was seeing how it was being swept under the carpet, 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.480 and in particular the matter of Roger Rogerson, who I've 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:47.879 written about on a couple of occasions. And in nineteen 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.760 eighty four I remember standing in my boss's office when 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.040 a dying deposition from Mick Drury, who'd been shot by 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.399 Christopher Flannery, the well known hitman who went missing forty 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:01.120 years ago last week and we haven't found career. Flannery 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.200 had tried to bump off Mick Drury, who had survived. 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.879 The dying declaration deposition I'm sorry from Mick Drury in 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.320 part said that Roger Rogerson was at the heart of 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.280 it all, and my boss nodded his head safely and 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:16.840 said it couldn't be Roger. He's too good a blog, 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.719 and what followed was a shamer of an investigation, and 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:22.800 I thought, well, that's how you guys really treat the 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.879 attemptment of a fellow police officer. I'm not hanging around. 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.720 See you later. I had parted, and it spent a 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.600 couple of years defending some people who were wrongly accused 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.040 of terrible, terrible crimes on briefs of evidence, in one 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:39.760 in particular, which is just a complete and utter sham, 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.720 and it looked good on paper until we sort of 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.600 delved into it slightly and we realized that none of it, 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.919 none of it hooked together. The chronology failed the case, 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:53.240 and our clients were exonerated fortunately and didn't go to 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:55.480 jail for a long time for a horrible crime. Mate, 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.040 it's likely the crime had never even happened, let alone 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.760 been committed by any and in crime, first of all, 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:02.760 prove you've got a crime. 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.560 So Juhnt can explain to me why do they get 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:10.320 it so wrong so often in relation to saying that 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:12.720 somebody is guilty when they're not, all saying that they're 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:14.080 innocent when they're not. 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:16.800 Well on paper, the cops aren't as supposed to decide 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:19.440 good enough. We reckon he's guilty. All they need is 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:23.080 reasonable cause to suspect and then it goes up to 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.919 judging jury basically at some stage. But the costs have 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.639 got a huge onus on them to make sure that 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.520 the case is absolutely sound. And the fundamental problem, well, 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:38.040 there're a couple of problems in policing. It's very very easy. 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:39.760 Back in the old days, it was very easy to 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:41.879 decide on someone you didn't like and make sure that 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:45.840 evidence fitted them. That's bad our corrupt does. But the 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:49.440 greatest problem with any investigation, and that whether it's done 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:51.680 by cops, whether it's done by journalists for that matter, 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:55.560 is deciding what the result might look like and working 0:21:55.600 --> 0:22:00.000 towards it. It's sort of confirmational bias. It can happen deliberately, 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.399 as I've seen quite a number of occasions, or it 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:06.200 can happen by accident and you decide, well, this person 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.560 looks good to me. Let's work towards that. And the 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.560 moment you have confirmation or bias in your investigation, your 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.879