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Speaker 1: Look, it probably wasn't the weekend that the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: Police Commissioner Michael Murphy was hoping for either. The Chief

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Speaker 1: Minister Leah fanocchi Airo issuing a statement late on Saturday night,

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Speaker 1: saying that it was clear the Police Commissioner Michael Murphy

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Speaker 1: apm's position was untenable. She said that she had informed

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Speaker 1: the commissioner that he'd lost the confidence of the government

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Speaker 1: and gave him the opportunity to resign. Now joining me

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Speaker 1: in the studio a little earlier than usual so we

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Speaker 1: could have her on the show live today. It is

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Speaker 1: the Chief Minister, Leah Finochiiro. Good morning to your Chief Minister.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie and to your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Now, Chief Minister, you have known the person at the

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Speaker 1: center of this daming IKAK report was Michael Murphy since

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Speaker 1: it was published. Why did it take so long for

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Speaker 1: you to decide you no longer had confidence in the commissioner.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think what's important to understand is this has

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Speaker 3: been eight nine days now. It's been incredibly frustrating for

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Speaker 3: your listeners, Katie, for myself as well. Once that Operation

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Speaker 3: Apolo statement was put forward by the IKAK, there were

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Speaker 3: those requirements around confidentiality, and I couldn't do anything that

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Speaker 3: could lead anyone to understand the identity.

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Speaker 2: Now, of course, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, mister Murphy did not declare it was him until

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Speaker 3: quite late in the peace, until that Thursday. On that Thursday,

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Speaker 3: then the NTPA certainly came out saying that he could

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Speaker 3: no longer you know, that he had to resign. On Friday,

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Speaker 3: I took the opportunity to listen to the NTPA and

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Speaker 3: to meet with them. On Saturday, I contacted mister Murphy

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Speaker 3: and told him that his position was untenable and he'd

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Speaker 3: lost the confidence of government. Of course, over that entire period,

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Speaker 3: he had the opportunity to resign, and I gave him

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Speaker 3: that opportunity again on Saturday, and then that was not forthcoming,

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Speaker 3: and so I've commenced that process now for termination.

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Speaker 1: What would have happened had he not outed himself Because

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Speaker 1: the fact is, I mean, you've lost confidence in him,

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Speaker 1: The government's lost confidud it's in him. So what would

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Speaker 1: have happened had he not issued that statement last Thursday?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it could just have dragged on a very excruciating

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Speaker 3: and frustrating period because I still have limitations in the

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Speaker 3: ikic sense around what I can say publicly, and that

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Speaker 3: would have continued. And I think this has raised a

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Speaker 3: really good issue around is the K fit for purpose?

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Speaker 3: I know, you know, we'll probably cover off on that

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Speaker 3: a bit later, Katie, but yeah, it's been a very

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Speaker 3: difficult period. I know people have been saying, oh, you

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Speaker 3: should have just said it anyway, but as Chief Minister,

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Speaker 3: I can't just you know, break the law when it

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Speaker 3: suits me. It's you know, this is a this is

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Speaker 3: a framework that we have to operate within, and it

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Speaker 3: it's I don't think it was the right process, but

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Speaker 3: it's the process that happened.

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Speaker 1: Well it's not only incredibly frustrating, it's sort of bigg

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Speaker 1: as belief in a lot of ways. So I'm not

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Speaker 1: really interested in, you know why you didn't name him earlier.

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Speaker 1: I guess what I'm interested in is, you know what

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Speaker 1: changed your mind in this situation since Monday when we

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Speaker 1: last spoke, Because, as I said, you obviously knew who

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Speaker 1: that person was, you weren't able to name them for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason. But you're in a situation where clearly, and

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Speaker 1: as you've now stated, you do not have confidence in

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Speaker 1: Michael Murphy. So what changed your mind over that period.

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Speaker 3: It's not that there was a change of mind, it's

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Speaker 3: just I was limited in what I could say at

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Speaker 3: the time. So straight away, on that Friday, when the

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Speaker 3: Operation of Polos statement was made, I wrote a letter

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Speaker 3: to both the Commissioner and to the CEO of Chief

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Speaker 3: Minister and Cabinet one to make sure that our process

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Speaker 3: is across the whole of government and our training was appropriate,

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Speaker 3: because if this could happen to in such a high

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Speaker 3: ranking person as a police commissioner, imagine how many recruitment

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Speaker 3: processes across government happened.

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Speaker 1: So should you have actually asked him to resign at

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Speaker 1: that point?

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Speaker 3: Oh, look, I haven't asked him to resign because I

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Speaker 3: think when you're at that level he could make up

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Speaker 3: his own decision around that. But you have now though, right, Well, no,

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Speaker 3: I have not asked him to resign. I've moved to

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Speaker 3: start a process of termination. It's still open to him

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Speaker 3: to resign if he would like, but otherwise.

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Speaker 1: This is all still very much in the air. What

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Speaker 1: happens if he decides he's going to drag his heels.

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Speaker 3: Well, no, we've commenced a process of termination. So there's

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Speaker 3: two different things. One is when someone resigns, they resign right,

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Speaker 3: they walk away.

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Speaker 2: The other is where the employer.

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Speaker 3: Which is not the most appropriate word in this context,

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Speaker 3: but just for the sake of the conversation, where the

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Speaker 3: employer then initiates the process to remove the person.

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Speaker 2: So that's the process we under it.

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Speaker 1: So should you have done that when you learned that

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Speaker 1: it was him? When that IICAC report came out?

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Speaker 3: So I commenced the process straight away of understanding what

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Speaker 3: has happened, you know, what are you doing about this?

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Speaker 3: Those types of things, and then obviously over the course

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Speaker 3: of the week to get to the point where we did,

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Speaker 3: the person had to be made public.

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Speaker 1: I mean, did you only make this move because there

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Speaker 1: was the concern that Justin Davis, the Independent member for Johnson,

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Speaker 1: had threatened to name him under parliamentary privilege.

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Speaker 2: No, that's entirely a matter for her.

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Speaker 3: I think I said at the time that you know,

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Speaker 3: that's completely within her remit to make that decision. You know,

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Speaker 3: did that have an influence in eventually why the commissioner

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Speaker 3: came out?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but ultimately they're separate processes.

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Speaker 1: So have you spoken to Michael Murphy over the weekend.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So I spoke to him on Saturday and I

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Speaker 3: explained to him, you know, that he had no longer

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Speaker 3: had the trust and confidence of the government, that his

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Speaker 3: position was untenable.

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Speaker 2: And how did he respond. Look, I won't I won't.

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Speaker 3: Go into the conversation, but essentially, you know, I put

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Speaker 3: those things to him, and now there's a process. I've

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Speaker 3: been really clear with territories about the process, because again

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Speaker 3: it will probably be frustrating for some of your listeners.

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Speaker 3: So just for clarity for everyone, we've now commenced that

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Speaker 3: process of termination. What that looks like is mister Murphy

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Speaker 3: has to be afforded natural justice as appropriate. There is

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Speaker 3: then a period where Cabinet has an involvement, Executive Council

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Speaker 3: has an involvement, and then ultimately it will end up

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Speaker 3: in some form of recommendation to the administrator who It

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Speaker 3: sounds like it's.

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Speaker 1: Going to be long drawn out and potentially very expensive.

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Speaker 3: Not necessarily, not necessarily, it just is an important process,

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Speaker 3: so we just have to see that through in terms

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Speaker 3: of expensive. I was also very transparent in my statement

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Speaker 3: on Saturday night. The employment determinations around a police commissioner

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Speaker 3: allow or mandate effectively six months remuneration. So that will

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Speaker 3: be a cost to the taxpayer, but we've been very

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Speaker 3: upfront about that.

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Speaker 1: So could be looking at half a million dollars quarter

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Speaker 1: of a million dollars.

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Speaker 3: Look, it will be six months of whatever the police commissioners, sorry,

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Speaker 3: remuneration I should say not.

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Speaker 1: Say okay, all right, Now Martin Dole is now the

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Speaker 1: acting police Commissioner.

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Speaker 3: Why mister Doll, So he's currently the deputy as sorry.

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Speaker 3: Prior to Saturday, he was the deputy commissioner. So on

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Speaker 3: Saturday mister Murphy was asked to go on leave, I

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Speaker 3: immediately put in place Commissioner acting Commissioner Doll because I

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Speaker 3: want continuity for our police stability. Police just need to

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Speaker 3: get on with the job as best they can, as

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Speaker 3: hard as this period has been, and try not to

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Speaker 3: get bogged down in this so certainty was important. So

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Speaker 3: mister Dole was deputy commissioner, so he moves into that

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Speaker 3: acting role as he has done several times before.

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Speaker 1: Was the now acting Commissioner Martin Dole on the panel

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Speaker 1: in which Michael Murphy was on?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've now been aware that he was on that

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Speaker 3: panel just this morning, So is.

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Speaker 1: That appropriate that he is now the acting police Commissioner.

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Speaker 3: So he certainly is not part of the statement that

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Speaker 3: was made in Operation Apolo. I can only deal with

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Speaker 3: what's in front of me, and ultimately, as deputy his

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Speaker 3: role is to act up. I've got full confidence in

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Speaker 3: his ability to do that, and we need stability across

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Speaker 3: the force. He put out a fantastic message to police

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Speaker 3: on Saturday night, you know, expressing to them our heart

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Speaker 3: for thanks for their hard work, that there's a big

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Speaker 3: job ahead and we're just really want our police focused

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Speaker 3: on keeping our community, saying.

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Speaker 1: Look, I you know, I don't really have an opinion

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Speaker 1: either way or whether Martin Dole should be acting in

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Speaker 1: the role or not. But from you know, just from

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Speaker 1: looking at this from the outside in, I sort of go,

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Speaker 1: all right, we've got a Northern Territory Police Commissioner who's

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Speaker 1: had to stand down as a result of this EYECAC report.

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Speaker 1: You've then now got the Deputy commissioner who was on

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Speaker 1: that same panel. Now I totally take on what you

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Speaker 1: were saying that he is not part of the Ikak report,

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Speaker 1: but the optics are not good.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I don't agree with that, Katie, And

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Speaker 3: ultimately I mean, people can tear people down at every

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Speaker 3: level for as long as they want to. I just

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Speaker 3: don't have information in front of me that would make

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Speaker 3: me think any otherwise. I think in all of my

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Speaker 3: interactions with mister Dole, he's been exemplary. He's obviously a

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Speaker 3: long standing territory cop. He is the Deputy Commissioner and

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Speaker 3: it is entirely appropriate for him to act up in

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Speaker 3: the role. There has been no wrongdoing being asserted, and

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Speaker 3: I've not had any indication to the country, so people

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Speaker 3: can form their own judgments. Again, my job is about

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Speaker 3: certainty and stability going forward, and that's what we've delivered.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister. Is there going to be a review into

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Speaker 1: the other people who've been appointed to senior executive roles

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Speaker 1: over the last year.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think that will all come out in the wash, Katie.

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Speaker 3: Right now, we've got to go through this first process

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Speaker 3: and then ultimately move forward from there. What I want

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Speaker 3: right now is that certainty in our police. We need

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Speaker 3: business as usual. This has been a very awful time

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Speaker 3: for our police, and you know, things are just starting

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Speaker 3: to really be getting back on track. Attritions going down powers.

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Speaker 3: We're passing legislation to give police, better powers, We've got

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Speaker 3: the retention bonus on foot, lots of good things happening,

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Speaker 3: and I just want to have police to know that

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Speaker 3: their government supports them and to keep going. They're doing

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Speaker 3: a great job. We need them strong, and I don't

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Speaker 3: want other distractions at this time.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely I agree with that, And I mean, the fact is,

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Speaker 1: there is so many changes underway really at you know,

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Speaker 1: going in a direction that the community voted for. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but now you've got a situation where we are, indeed,

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Speaker 1: you know, whether we want to be or not in

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Speaker 1: the situation that we're currently in. I mean, does it

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Speaker 1: instill confidence in the force though if we have potentially

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Speaker 1: got other executives at the top that are maybe in

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Speaker 1: positions that will people could be questioning whether they should be.

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Speaker 3: But I think you know, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: what we have is the operation of Polar report. That's

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Speaker 3: all we can sorry, the operation of Polar statement. That's

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Speaker 3: all we can deal with with what's in front of us,

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Speaker 3: and that had a very specific instance in it. Now

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Speaker 3: you know, to that extent, we have to move forward,

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Speaker 3: and that's what we're doing. It's about making sure that

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Speaker 3: we give that stability, that confidence that certainty to the

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Speaker 3: police leadership so that it can be business as usual

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Speaker 3: and we are achieving good things.

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Speaker 2: Caane.

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Speaker 3: There's five hundred more people in prison than there were

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Speaker 3: six months ago, and that's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, I'll go back to though, the question

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Speaker 1: does there need to either be a review into other

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Speaker 1: people who have been appointed or an inquiry into this,

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Speaker 1: because you've got to start to question whether you know,

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Speaker 1: whether the force have got confidence, whether the remainder of

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Speaker 1: the force. So, I mean, we all saw the statement

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Speaker 1: that the Police Association issued on Friday, Like you've touched

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Speaker 1: on you know, people are hurting at the moment. It

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Speaker 1: is disruption is probably a very mild way of putting us.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, indeed, look Cannie, I haven't ruined anything in

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Speaker 3: or out.

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Speaker 2: But right now my focus is on this.

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Speaker 3: You know, at the end of the day, what happens

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Speaker 3: in a month or two months or three months time

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Speaker 3: will happen and we will chant the right course. I

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Speaker 3: think Territorians have seen that we're a government of action.

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Speaker 3: They've seen that community safety is our number one priority.

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Speaker 3: They have no reason to believe that we are not

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Speaker 3: doing everything we can in the best interest of supporting police,

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Speaker 3: and so we just have to go through this next process.

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Speaker 3: My priority will be on this top issue, and when

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Speaker 3: we move through that, we'll get to the next thing.

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Speaker 1: Are you concerned that there could be systemic issues within

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Speaker 1: the force when you look at jobs for mates.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm not.

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Speaker 1: You're not concerned about that at all. No. Okay, Now,

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Speaker 1: what steps are going to be taken to find this

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Speaker 1: new commissioner?

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Speaker 3: So there is no recruitment process on foot. I want

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Speaker 3: to be very clear about that. We have started a

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Speaker 3: process for termination. That is where our focus is. The

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Speaker 3: next steps is natural justice and we'll move through the

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Speaker 3: rest of the stages.

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Speaker 1: So at this point in time, no steps being made

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Speaker 1: to find the next commissioner. We are simply trying to

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Speaker 1: get rid of the last.

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Speaker 3: Well, what we're doing is absolutely not recruiting. There is

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Speaker 3: no recruitment process. I'm not looking around. There were some

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Speaker 3: rumors yesterday that popped up about who I.

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Speaker 2: Might like to see. It's just not true.

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Speaker 3: There is no process on foot for that whatsoever. The

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Speaker 3: process that is on foot is starting the process of termination.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister. This whole situation has been, you know, a debarcle.

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Speaker 1: I want to say over the last week or so.

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Speaker 1: The you know, with the IKAK, should we be in

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Speaker 1: a situation where we can actually name a public servant

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Speaker 1: at the center of a situation like this one.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it does raise a really important question

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Speaker 3: that if the IKAK deems something so serious that they

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Speaker 3: make a public statement about it, at what level do

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Speaker 3: they afford the anonymity protections? And so if that was

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Speaker 3: a member of parliament, for example, say exactly the same situation,

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Speaker 3: but a member of Parliament, the statement would have named them.

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Speaker 3: So I think very much the community would expect if

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Speaker 3: you're a senior public servant that there would be naming.

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Speaker 3: But I think it goes beyond this KDE.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I would say he is higher than a

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Speaker 1: senior public servant. You are talking about somebody that is

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Speaker 1: running the entire Northern Territory Police Force.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, these are the decisions that the IQQ

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Speaker 3: made and they're theirs to own and you know, unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: Within Northern Territory government legislation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, but they're the ones who make the decision.

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Speaker 3: It's not me that makes the decision, it's them, and

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Speaker 3: so they have to own that. Now going forward, I

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Speaker 3: think there's a lot of things we need to look

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Speaker 3: at with the ICAC, you know, including how does it

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Speaker 3: interact without other integrity bodies.

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Speaker 2: Territorians have spent thirty.

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Speaker 3: Five million dollars on IICQ, and I think the feedback

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Speaker 3: I get from people is they don't have a lot

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Speaker 3: of confidence.

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Speaker 1: Does it need to go? What needs to happen?

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Speaker 3: I think we need to be looking at how it

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Speaker 3: interacts with other integrity functions because Territorians pay handsomely for

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Speaker 3: all of those as well. For example, I think a

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Speaker 3: couple of weeks ago, there was an ic statement around

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Speaker 3: it a public servant taking leave. There was a leave issue,

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Speaker 3: and some people are questioning, well, why is the i

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Speaker 3: CACK spending time and money looking at that?

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Speaker 2: Is that really an issue for them?

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Speaker 3: Is that better done by the agency or the Public

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Speaker 3: Service commissioner or the ombardsman? You know, I think there's

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Speaker 3: a lot to unpack here. Again, in the fullness of time,

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Speaker 3: we'll get to those issues. And you know, we're committed

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Speaker 3: to dealing with the IKKE this year because people are.

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Speaker 2: Still paying for two K commissioners as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's exactly right. I mean, I guess right

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Speaker 1: now though, we're sort of blurring two situations. In this instance,

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Speaker 1: the IKAK did do their job properly and you know,

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Speaker 1: and obviously release the report last week. In terms of

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Speaker 1: the naming of public servants seeing your public servants, if

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Speaker 1: indeed that change is made, how quickly could that happen

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Speaker 1: and how would it work.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't be minded to just tinker with the ICAC act.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that will really yield long term benefits

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Speaker 3: to territory. And so I think if we were to

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Speaker 3: do something, we'd be having a bigger discussion about what

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Speaker 3: needs to be done.

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Speaker 1: So is that on the cards.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that needs to be done this year,

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Speaker 3: particularly in light of the fact we continue to pay

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Speaker 3: for two K commissions. So a full review of the

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Speaker 3: ka I don't know if it'll be a full review,

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Speaker 3: but we've certainly you know, a lot of issues have

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Speaker 3: come up over the years and territorians lack confidence in

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Speaker 3: that institution. Now it's very important that, of all things,

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Speaker 3: people have confidence in the Ikak, the Office of the Ikak,

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Speaker 3: and when they don't, it causes a lot of problems.

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Speaker 2: So I think we've got work to do there.

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Speaker 3: It's not an urgent priority obviously, because we've been very

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Speaker 3: focused on law and order and economic reform and that's

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Speaker 3: what people have seen over the last six months.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister, what do you think this whole situation says

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Speaker 1: about the Northern Territory Police Force? And really what is

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Speaker 1: your message to the police listening this morning, who are

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Speaker 1: feeling probably pretty disillusioned about this whole situation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they'll be at very wide mix of

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Speaker 3: feelings amongst our police and you know that is regrettable.

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Speaker 3: They're doing a great job and they don't deserve to

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Speaker 3: suffer the you know, some of them are feeling like

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Speaker 3: it's damaged the uniform, you know, the brand.

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Speaker 2: Some of them are feeling let down, and we stand

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Speaker 2: with you.

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Speaker 3: That is why we're so focused on giving police the

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Speaker 3: powers they need on community safety. There are many good

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Speaker 3: things ahead and this, you know, it just has to

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Speaker 3: be seen as a bump in the road because we've

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Speaker 3: got to move forward. We've got a bigger job ahead

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Speaker 3: of us, and ultimately we'll move through this stage and

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Speaker 3: ultimately be stronger and move forward.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister la Finocchiaro, we appreciate you joining us in

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Speaker 1: the studio this morning. I know you've got other commitments.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate you being able to come in a little earlier

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Speaker 1: than usual.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, take care everyone.

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Speaker 1: Thank you