1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Now a news which absolutely horrified the nation. We know 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: that Joshua Dale Brown was charged with more than seventy 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: offenses relating to allegations involving eight alleged victims at a 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: childcare center in Melbourne's southeast. Now, he was not known 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: to police and did have a valid working with Children card, 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: which has since been canceled. Yesterday, detectives investigating him charged 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: a second man, Michael Simon Wilson, in relation to child abuse, 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: material and sex offenses. Now, the situation, as I said, 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: has horrified people around the nation, particularly in pearents with 10 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: young kids in childcare and those that work in childcare centers. 11 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: We know there are so many incredible childcare workers. Now 12 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: the federal government is now looking at reforms that would 13 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: standardize working with children checks across the country. Joining me 14 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 1: on the line is the Territory Childcare Group director Sarah Lloyd. 15 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: Good morning, Sarah, good morning. 16 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 2: I was actually quite pleased when you added there that 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: not only our family is devastated, but so is the sector. 18 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: You know, we're equally devastated that this has happened. 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: I bet you guys are, because you know, like for me, 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: my kids are older now, but like the childcare workers 21 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: at the center that my kids went to literally help 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: me raise my kids. They did an incredibly phenomenal job, 23 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: and you know the absolute majority of childcare workers do. 24 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: But then you've got a grub like this that works 25 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: in a center and has done what he's done, and 26 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: it must make you, guys feel really upset and angry. 27 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely it does. And we're in a very regulated environment. 28 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: You know, we do have a lot of legislation and protections, 29 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: but it's a really around the application of you know, 30 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: of how we're applying that. And I do when I 31 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: definitely have some opinions on the measures that the government's 32 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 2: looking at putting in in the you know of fast tracking. 33 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 2: Some are good, some I don't think are the answer. 34 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so talk us through exactly what they're sort of 35 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: from your understanding what they're proposing, because I know the 36 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: federal government flag that these reforms would standardize the working 37 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: with children checks. You know, what, what is your understanding 38 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: of what they're looking at changing across Australia. 39 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, they're interesting part with the working with children checks, 40 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: Like every jurisdiction's got its own version of that. I mean, 41 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: I think what the part that people don't understand with 42 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: that is they're unless you're criminally convicted of an offense 43 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: against children, nothing's going to be flagged. So it's a 44 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: little bit of a teethless tiger. I think, you know, 45 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: it's good. You know, obviously we need to have them, 46 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: but it's not the sole answer because you know, it 47 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: sounds like, you know, in this particular case we've just had, 48 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 2: he hadn't been convicted of anything criminal, so it wouldn't 49 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 2: have come up on a working the children's check anyway. 50 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: So I definitely leap onto the bandwagon of screening. There's 51 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 2: a few you know, there's quite a few things that 52 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: can be done. One is, you know, in the first instance, 53 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 2: have an environment that is not attractive to people with 54 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: ill intentions. You know, if you you know that that's 55 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 2: the workplace culture, you know, coming straight in that that 56 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 2: that sort of behavior or any like slight indication that 57 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: there was something wrong, you take action. You know that 58 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 2: that's one, you know, one of the foremost parts of it. 59 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: Another thing I do think needs to be added in 60 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: this case is from what I've seen in the media, 61 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: it looks like he was an agency staff. There there's 62 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: a means he wasn't directly employed by the center. But 63 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: but you know, if they're short of staff or or 64 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: comes in. So in the end, we don't have a 65 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: lot of that. I know in other jurisdictions, in some 66 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: centers that you know, primarily staffed for agency stuff with 67 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: most most services years, would be a very high percentage 68 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 2: of direct employees see the center. That is a different 69 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 2: That is a point of difference that needs to be 70 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: factored in in spafeguarding. 71 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: I mean from your perspective, you know, some of the 72 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: reforms that they're talking about. I think the point you've 73 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: made there, like that screening, because as you've rightly pointed out, 74 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: this person had a valid working with children card. So 75 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: changing you know, the working with children cards and the 76 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: way in which that rolls out, Like, I don't know 77 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: whether that's going to make a difference, because if someone 78 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: doesn't have a criminal record, then unless you're you know, 79 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: unless you're screening them and going all right, I don't 80 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: feel as though this person's right for the job or 81 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: right to even be an agency worker. There's really nothing 82 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: that would have stopped this guy potentially from still gaining 83 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: that working with children card. 84 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct. And you know, the thing which you know, 85 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 2: I often get really surprised by is the lack of 86 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: reference checking or the lack of verified reference checking. You know, 87 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: it can't be your mate or you know, someone you 88 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 2: worked with three years ago who was in in any 89 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 2: position of authority. You know, we have like a really 90 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: strict rule around reference checking around someone who was a 91 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: direct supervisor. We will, you know, luckily do once fairly 92 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 2: small place. We were like, you know, double check that 93 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: that person actually was in that position. And you know, 94 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 2: we always asked the question, the safeguarding question, you know, 95 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: has this person ever been in any disciplinary matters in 96 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: relation to performance or in relation to children. And I 97 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: had someone say to me yesterday, Oh, but you can't 98 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 2: legally give a bad reference. Well, I think you have 99 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: an obligation if you maybe if you don't feel comfortable, 100 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 2: you know, you know, divulging a whole story of something. 101 00:05:58,240 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: But I do think you have an obligation to say 102 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: they're problems or you know, there was there was something there. 103 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 2: I think that sort of mentality that you don't want 104 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 2: to give it bad references needs to change. 105 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think you know, if if 106 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: at the end of the day somebody has their pros 107 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: and cons in any workplace, or their cons or their concerns, 108 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: then that definitely should be passed on. 109 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And you know that it goes back to 110 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: that you know culture, there was you know, that kind 111 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 2: of behavior wasn't couldn't be tolerated. And I have noticed 112 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: in again just from the media or in all of 113 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: these really terrible situations, there seem to be some red 114 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,239 Speaker 2: flags along the way, you know, even just people saying 115 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 2: things like, you know, it was a bit creepy or that. 116 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, you've got to be a bit 117 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: careful that workplace protection. But you know, I think we 118 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: need to be better at saying, hey, something's not right. 119 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: I'm going to I feel comfortable to go and speak 120 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: to someone in authority and say I don't feel right 121 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: about what's happening here. 122 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: I agree, Yeah, I agree with you. Now in terms 123 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: of you know that there has been suggestions that maybe 124 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: security cameras should be installed across the board, you know, 125 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,559 Speaker 1: in childcare centers. Is that something that you think should 126 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: be happening or you know, do you think like families 127 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: would want that? 128 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: Well, do you know what I think? 129 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: You know? 130 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: On the face of it when you first hear our 131 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: CCTV is the solution, We're just going to film everyone. 132 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: But it's way way more complicated than that. You know, 133 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: you think about this as like change rooms. Are we 134 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: having CCTV and change rooms you know with children are 135 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: having suppy changed or being bathed and that's being filmed. 136 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: Who can access that? You know, what is a complaint? 137 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: If they're thinking a parent as a complaint. We can 138 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: look at the CCTV. Is that like I can't find 139 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: my lunch box or you know, I think that that 140 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: is a bit of a knee jerk reaction that has 141 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: some real issues with the actual application. 142 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: Of that welltibly, somebody would have to be monitoring it 143 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: as well, right, yeah. 144 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think that that's where the investment should be. 145 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: The investment needs to be in the workforce. That needs 146 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: to be in making sure that you know, service providers 147 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 2: have not only have like the framework in place to 148 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: safeguard children, but actually apply it that you know, that's 149 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: the thing we have. We have such an issue with 150 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: retention of educators now as it is, and it's you know, 151 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: there's a big strain on the workforce, which is why 152 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 2: you know, people are using agency staff or skipping reference 153 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 2: checks or yeah they need a body on, they need 154 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: a body there doing the work, and so you know, 155 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: then you know, it goes into those very complicated issues 156 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: of how do we recruit passionate, dedicated educators into the sector. 157 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're spot on, and and you know, making sure 158 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: that you don't just put somebody in a job because 159 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: they are a body. You've got to make sure you're 160 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: getting the right people. But that can be difficult, you know, 161 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: when people want to get paid adequately and you know, 162 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. So it's a really broad 163 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: discussion before I let you go, Sarah, like, what sort 164 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: of been the reaction you know, from the people that 165 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: you work with, from families that you work with as well, 166 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: following on from this news out of Victoria. I know, 167 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: like I know, even for me, like it just sort 168 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: of it is just shocking to hear. 169 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, you know you sort of have that full 170 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 2: body reaction to think that that's just horrendous, like you 171 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 2: know how those you know, those families are feeling and 172 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 2: the unknown that you know wasn't my child what you know, 173 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: you can't there's nobody here could say that that you know, 174 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: find any sort of thing to make that go away. 175 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: You know, it's pretty terrible. But then you also get 176 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: a bit a bit on the bandwagon of like this 177 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: just shouldn't be happening. Where's your processes? What are you doing? 178 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: You know, where are those other staff you know, where 179 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 2: were they? 180 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: That's exactly what I was asking myself, Sarah, like, as 181 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: somebody who you know has has been a director of 182 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: childcare centers for quite some time, Like, you know, what 183 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: were you thinking to yourself? You must have thought where 184 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: are the other staff members? 185 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so one of one of the things I was 186 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: thinking about that, Like when I think of our services, 187 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 2: they're very open plan in the NT you know, we 188 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 2: have that to the indoor outdoor environment. You know, even 189 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: like our change rooms has like large windows with like 190 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: a privacy, you know, so you can see the adults 191 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: can't see the child, Whereas I think in other jurisdictions, 192 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: you know, they're all converted houses, they're not necessarily the 193 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: big open plan that we have here. So I guess 194 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: that does lead to some level, you know, of less 195 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 2: people being in the space or less eyes. I guess, Yeah, 196 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: that was one thing I was trying to think you 197 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 2: know what, how could that? How could you even do it? 198 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, just it just blows your mind. And you know, 199 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: now like all those parents of the little children, and 200 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: you know everybody else that like works in the sector, 201 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: just thinking, goodness me. You know, now you've got a 202 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: situation where all these parents are receiving text messages that 203 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: their children need to go and get checked for, you know, 204 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: for for STIs. It is just mind blowing. 205 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And I can't imagine that needs feeling, 206 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: you know, the pitted your stomach, you know what's happened. 207 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Sarah, I really appreciate your time this morning and 208 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: talking us through, you know as well some of those 209 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: different things that you know that they're looking at doing 210 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: nationally and whether it actually will make a difference. So 211 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time. It's good to speak to 212 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: you this morning. Ye, thank you, thank you, Thanks so much.