1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: What is autism? What is executive function? What is a disorder? 2 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: Are we supposed to be talking about disorders when it 3 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: comes to conversations around neuro developmental challenges, neurodiversity, neurodivergence. I 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: am so excited for my conversation today because it is 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: going to answer so many questions that you have about autism, 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: adhd neurodiversity more generally. Oh my goodness, let's get into it. 7 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. My name 8 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: is doctor Justin Coulson. This is where we give you 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: I wish Kylie could be with me today, Unfortunately she 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: has other things that are going on with our six daughders. 12 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: Therefore it's me, but I'm joined by somebody who has 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: taken the world by storm academically over the last couple 14 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: of months with a brand new paper that was published 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: all about autism and executive function. If neurodiversity and neurodivergence 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: are common discussion points in your home, this is one 17 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: you don't want to miss. Professor Adam Guastella is a 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: leading clinical psychologist and researcher at the Brain and Mind 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: Center at the very prestigious University of Sydney, one of 20 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: those Sandstone Universities, groundbreaking work for decades now in research. 21 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 1: He's also featured as the expert on the ABCTV show 22 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: Employable Me, which was about helping autistic people find gainful 23 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: and valuable and meaningful and purposeful employment. He's working on 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: providing support and tools for families with neurodevelopmental needs. He's 25 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: a dad to three boys and he joins me now 26 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: from his office at the University of Sydney. Adam, I'm 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: so excited that you're on the Happy Families podcast today. 28 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with me. 29 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: Hi Justin, I'm so glad to be here. Adam. 30 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: Let's start with a conversation about you study autism. 31 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I trained as a psychologist, and for 32 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 2: anyone that's trained as a psychologist, they'll know that they 33 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: barely got any training in this autism field. You know, 34 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: I think my memory is I got two hours of 35 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: a lecture on fairly basic information about autism and other 36 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: neurodevelopmental conditions. And so what happened for me is I 37 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: actually started an anxiety doing a lot of different anxiety treatments, 38 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: and we used to get people come into the anxiety 39 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: programs and they'd benefit from some things, but they really 40 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: weren't benefiting from a lot of parts of the program. 41 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: What's going on here? I started realizing there was different 42 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 2: needs for this group of people that were coming in, 43 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: and we started understanding that they were people that were 44 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: meeting the criteria for autism. Actually they weren't often undiagnosed. 45 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: They might add so they're becoming in really significant problems 46 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: and so you know, from there, well, we've got to 47 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: support this group in a different way. And there was 48 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: nothing available. There was no evidence for what works. There 49 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: was no health service providing support, and so that's where 50 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 2: it really started. I went, well, actually, we've got to 51 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: develop the evidence for how to provide support, and that 52 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: started back in two thousand and eight and we've been 53 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: continuing ever since. 54 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: What is autism? 55 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: Well, it's a good question. It's a controversial one on 56 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: mine ad there's a breadth in the way that we 57 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: define autism, but the crux of it is really a 58 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 2: difficulty in navigating social situations in terms of the core 59 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: criteria and then having a systematizing or really black and 60 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: white way of thinking about the world and getting stuck 61 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: in routines. That's sort of how the criteria is shaped 62 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: at the moment. 63 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: Okay, so let me restate that I'm going to use 64 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: the term disorder. I know it's a provocative term, but 65 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: for just now, I use the term disorder. It's a 66 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: disordered way of engaging socially. It's a fixed and rigid 67 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: way of sticking with routines or demanding routine where it 68 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: doesn't exist. And sorry, there was a third element that 69 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: I that's just escaped me. What was the third element? 70 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: It's the black and white. It's it's not what we 71 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 2: call concrete thinking. It's sort of like the seeing things 72 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: in quite rigid ways. 73 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: Okay, you didn't mention anything about intellect cognitive capacity, and 74 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: this is another area that can be quite provocative. My 75 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: understanding is that there is no correlation between autism and 76 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: intellectual capacity. That it's very much about rigidity and thinking 77 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: and struggling in social situations. 78 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 2: You said disordered ways of interacting social I know you're 79 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 2: being provocative, but that's where the debate is right, because 80 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: the debate is is it about they've got a disordered 81 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: way of interacting or that there's just a different way 82 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: of interacting that, if we can support or match, is 83 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: not really disordered, but just different. So that's an active 84 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: debate in the field right now. But to go back 85 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 2: to your actual question, think about it as a condition 86 00:04:54,600 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: that's associated with changes in learning and behavior, that affects 87 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: socialization and the way we interpret information in their world. 88 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: The Oxford University Press describes a disorder as an illness 89 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: or condition that disrupts normal physical or mental functions. You've 90 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: highlighted this is a provocative thing to anyone who is 91 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: dealing with autism. And I say dealing with because there 92 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: is disruption socially, and there is disruption around that rigidity 93 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: of thinking. The affirmative approach, the affirmation approach is very 94 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: much where the conversation is right now. Why is this 95 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: so provocative? It seems to me. And granted I'm not 96 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: somebody who's been trained in it, and I also have 97 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: all the compassion and sympathy in the world here, so 98 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to I'm really not trying to steal 99 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: the pot. I know anyone who's dealing with autism in 100 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: their families right now hating me, But I'm asking the 101 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: question because Grandpa Joe or Artie Cynthia at Christmas, they're 102 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: not thinking the way the mum who's grappling with this 103 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: is thinking. They're not thinking the way the person who's 104 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: leading the autism organization is thinking. They're saying, but you've 105 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: got a nine year old who has a condition that's 106 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: disrupting their normal physical or mental functions. They're saying, this 107 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: is a disorder. 108 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: Right. 109 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: So, as provocative as it is, I'm taking that side 110 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,239 Speaker 1: because I want you to be able to explain why 111 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: this has turned into this big debate. Why is this 112 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: such a big debate. 113 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 2: So I think it's important to acknowledge the history, and 114 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 2: the history is that we need funding mechanisms to provide 115 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: support in different you know, different governments rely on a 116 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: medical model to provide funding to a family for needs, right, 117 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: and so that is often under the label of a disorder. 118 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: And that's where private health insurance and like all comes 119 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 2: into it. And so the term disorder is actually very 120 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 2: very important for accessing health care. The history in this 121 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: space really is that it's not all about changing the child, 122 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: which the term disorder sort of insinuates that it's something 123 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: we have to fix in a child to get optimal 124 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: health outcomes. And the answer is certainly not that right. 125 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: It's about actually going what in the environment needs to 126 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 2: change to make the environment easier to learn from, What 127 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: in the environment needs to change to encourage more cohesive 128 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: and more supportive interactions with people and better friendships, and 129 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: also what in the environment needs to change so that 130 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: people can succeed in achieving the goals they want to achieve. 131 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 2: And so the focus is very much on helping the individual, 132 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: but also recognizing that the environment can change in a 133 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,559 Speaker 2: huge way as well. And related to that, when people 134 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: have done studies and change environments to be more what 135 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: we term inclusive to support children and adults with autism 136 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: and other neurodevelopmental needs, those environments are really good for everyone, 137 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: you know, all of a sudden, we start seeing improvements 138 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: in learning outcomes for all the kids in the class, 139 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: not just the kids that have a neurodevelopmental condition. So 140 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: then the question becomes, are we dealing with poor environments 141 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: that are unnecessarily difficult to learn from mixed with differences 142 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: in learning that make things result in problems? And I'll 143 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: give you I'll give you some really practical examples in 144 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: our clinic, we regularly deal with young adults that come 145 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: to us they unable to find work, that they might 146 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: be failing at university, that they might be really unhappy 147 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 2: in their jobs, and we'll explore what's going on for 148 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: them in the university system. We know that it can 149 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: be really sporadic in terms of the amount of work 150 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 2: that's required and self driven, and a lot of the 151 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: assessments can be really hard to navigate for people, and 152 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: so it's not hard for an assessment to get missed 153 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: here or there. You know, that's a minute they start 154 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 2: failing at one thing that it starts piling up, but 155 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 2: it's before they know it, they're starting to fail at 156 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: all their subjects. 157 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: Busy anxiety that you were talking about before. 158 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 2: And anxiety starts kicking in, depresion starts kicking in. And 159 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: so the system and the way that say learning about 160 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 2: how to complete a course at university doesn't suit or 161 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: it doesn't promote often successful outcomes for people. And so 162 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: we've taken some of these people that have reported really 163 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: poor outcomes and then put them or not they've won 164 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: jobs themselves, but put them into roles where supports exist 165 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: and where their needs are being met and that maybe 166 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: the structures are clearer, maybe the goals are more obvious, 167 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: maybe the tasks are more suited to what their skills are, 168 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 2: and what do we find. What we find frequently that 169 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: when you do that, people succeed, and succeed outrageously well. 170 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: So we've had people that have failed at university to 171 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 2: being in the top ten of early graduates in a 172 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 2: multinational company for the year and getting to meet the CEO. 173 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: Or people that were absolutely miserable because they got the 174 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: diagnosis of autism in the workplace, put them in the 175 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 2: back office and felt like that and they felt like 176 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: they were being mistreated, and they were to then becoming 177 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: the head of diversity inclusion in a major company or 178 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: getting a job in government representing the needs of people 179 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: in the NDIS. And the point is that it's not 180 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: necessarily that these people have a disorder that stops them 181 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: from being able to learn or being able to succeed. 182 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: But it's also about being able to match up what 183 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 2: their goals are with the environment so that they can 184 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 2: flourish and succeed in the future. And that's partly why 185 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 2: there's been a shift in narrative. 186 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: Adam my sense is that what you've said is going 187 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: to give so many parents so much hope. I'm getting 188 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: goosebumps on my arms. Listen to what you're describing him. 189 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: One of my sons has ADHD and when he was 190 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 2: in year two, the strategy the teacher applied for him 191 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 2: when he wasn't able to sit still and listen in 192 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: the class was to face a blank wall at the 193 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: back of the room while she taught. Right, So her 194 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: strategy was to get him out of the class, and 195 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 2: so he was being if you look less intruptive to 196 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: face a brick wall. The idea there is his being 197 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 2: disruptive and if he wants to learn, he needs to 198 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: sit in the class appropriately and face me appropriately. And 199 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: if he doesn't do that, he's face in the brick wall. Right, 200 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: how much does he learn when when he does that? 201 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: What does he learn about his role in the classroom 202 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: when that happens to him, What does it will he 203 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: learn about his worth as a child? Because he's got 204 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 2: the problem And so you know what we quickly did 205 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 2: when that started to unfold was to get him into 206 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: an environment where the right supports were put in place 207 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: that you know, he was the distractions in the classroom 208 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: were reduced. That perhaps he was given you know, appropriate 209 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 2: support and learning support on a regular basis to be 210 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: able to take in the information and the anxiety in 211 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: the classroom reduced. So I guess what I'm just that's 212 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: sort of the point of why we don't necessarily just 213 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: talk about disorders. 214 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: As you describe that. It sits really neatly with the 215 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: psychological theory that underpins most of my research, most of 216 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: my work, which is that when children's basic psychological needs 217 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: are supported, they thrive. That is, when they feel competent 218 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: and capable, when they have good relationships and they have 219 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: a sense of control. And your son's experience much like 220 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: my youngest daughter similar kinds of challenges. We homeschool her 221 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: now because we just found that the school environment was 222 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: not working and where fortunately in the position where that 223 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: was an option for us, there was just too much 224 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: disruption in her life, relationship with the teacher, relationship with 225 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: other students, explosive, not working, not feeling competent because I always 226 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: getting in trouble, and also being controlled so much. I 227 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: love the way that you've mapped that out and the 228 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: hope that's there for parents. Last provocation before we step 229 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: into what I think parents are really going to what 230 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: I know about as it applies to their own children. 231 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: I hear this with some consistency, and it's certainly something 232 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: that I've thought of as well. I went to school 233 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, graduated in the early nineteen nineties. 234 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: My experience with school was that I don't I don't 235 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: ever remember ever coming across kids with autism. Maybe ADHD 236 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: because we just didn't talk about it back then, but 237 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: I don't remember ever coming across kids with these neurodevelopmental 238 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: needs conditions, disorders, whatever word people feel most comfortable or 239 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with. I try to be sensitive here. I just 240 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: don't remember anyone with autism in the eighties and nineties. 241 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: Has something changed? And if so, what because because a 242 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of the arties and uncles and 243 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: grandparents are looking at parents today and saying, well, it's 244 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: dodgy parenting, it's faulty, you're the issue here. 245 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that is back to this idea 246 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 2: that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and 247 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 2: someone's caused that problem. And I think that's really unhelpful 248 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: because you know, we know that development of delays and conditions, 249 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 2: it's not about parenting in general. And so you know, 250 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: there's a very clear reason why. When I started training 251 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,479 Speaker 2: as a psychologist in the late nineties early two thousands, 252 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: the rate of autism was about one in one hundred 253 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 2: and something one hundred and fifty. So that means in 254 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: the average year level there might be one person that 255 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: was being diagnosed. Those kids back then would never have 256 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 2: been diagnosed because the criteria didn't meet that criteria. A 257 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: lot of the kids back then needed to have intellectual disability, 258 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: quite severe intelectrivisibility to be diagnosed. And secondly, a lot 259 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 2: of those kids I've reflected on that myself and I 260 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: can think about a lot of the kids in my 261 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: year level that probably would have met criteria for autism 262 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 2: but never received an assessment, never received any support. And 263 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: it's fine to go, well, okay, well, if they didn't 264 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: receive support back then, why should we give them support now? 265 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: Why not just let them be whatever they be? And 266 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: the answer to that is pretty simple. It's that when 267 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: you don't provide the right support, when you don't give 268 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: people the needs that they have, then you get poor outcomes. 269 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: We know that autistic people and people with ADHD have 270 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: enormously high rates of bullying and schools enormously high rates. 271 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: They are victims over and over and over again, and 272 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 2: it's a consistent story of trauma and dislike of schools 273 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: in regards to their peers for a lot of young people. 274 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: And so we also know that under achievement, particularly in 275 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: those later years, is very very common in comparison to 276 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: their cognitive ability. When you do an IQ test or 277 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: the related things to IQ, you may say this is 278 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: the time of HSC score or whatever school you know 279 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: you would predict, and we know that people on the 280 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 2: spectrum will often get much lower scores than that. And 281 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: it's not about their learning capacity of their intelligence. It's 282 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 2: about what supports they had at school to be able 283 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: to learn and the types of things I said earlier. 284 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: And so if we're happy for people not to succeed 285 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 2: and fulfill their potential, if we're happy for people to 286 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: be excluded and to be bullied in our schools, and 287 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: we're happy for people to underperform and then to have 288 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: what is often lifelong self esteem issues and difficulties then 289 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: moving on into other fields, then yes we should leave 290 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: things the way they are. But if we want a 291 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: different system with greater awareness, a greater knowledge of what 292 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: differences people have, what needs they have. We should develop 293 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 2: schools and learning opportunities that give people the best chance 294 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 2: at succeeding in life. And I think when granddad's talking 295 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: about it, Granddad's talking about a medical model that goes, 296 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 2: there's something wrong with your child, you've got to fix it. 297 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 2: We're talking about a model now which is all about 298 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: we just want the best doubt coomes for your children. 299 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: You know, we want to make sure they've got the 300 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: right supports in place. And if we do it for 301 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: the kids that really need it, I bet you the 302 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 2: other kids are also going to benefit. And that's the 303 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 2: model that we're talking about. 304 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: Professor Gustela is at the University of Sydney and joins 305 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: me on the Happy Families podcast today. My sense a 306 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: metaphor has sprung to mind as you've been describing this. 307 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: I could listen to your talk all day, and that 308 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 1: is that if you get a seed and put it 309 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: in the soil and the seed doesn't grow, do you 310 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: blame the seed? And most gardeners would say, well, no, 311 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: you don't blame the seed. You look at the environment. 312 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: How much sunlight's there, what's the temperature, what's the nutritional 313 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: quality of the soil, how much water has been put 314 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: into the soil. In other words, you adapt the environment 315 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: to help the seed to grow. Would that metaphor suit 316 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: where you're going here? 317 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: That metaphor absolutely does. And I think it's even more 318 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 2: charged if you say, would you blame a three year 319 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 2: old for anything? Would you blame a five year old 320 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 2: for all the things? You know, we sometimes do blame 321 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 2: them for I mean, these are children that need support. 322 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: Adam. A few months ago, you published a paper that 323 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 1: blew up. It caught my attention. It's pretty academic, it's 324 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: pretty full on, but as simply as we can, I 325 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: want to dissect a couple of things from it and 326 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: talk specifically about this thing called executive function. My very 327 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: brief summary of the paper is that you've identified that 328 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: across neuro developmental needs, across the great neurodiversity that exists 329 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: on the planet with young people, one of the factors 330 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: that brings them together is an issue with executive function. 331 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: That is, executive function for orartistic kids, children with ADHD diagnosis, 332 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: people who meet the criteria in the DSM for these 333 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: neurodevelopmental challenges and needs. Executive function seems to be right 334 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: at the core of it. 335 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: Now. 336 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: I know that that's a massive oversimplification of your research, 337 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: but assuming that that's sufficient for us to move forward, 338 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: can we just talk a bit about what executive function 339 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: is and why parents should care about it in their kids. 340 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: Families will spend a long time seeking a diagnosis sake 341 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: so they can get the right care. Well that's the point. 342 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to get the care, want to get 343 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: the funding, want to know what's going on because the 344 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: environment's not working for that's that's right. 345 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 2: However, to get a diagnosis in Australia right now, it's 346 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: probably going to cost you at least three thousand dollars 347 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: or it's. 348 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: Probably going to and take two years and take. 349 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 2: More than two years, right and then if you get 350 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 2: the autism diagnosis, you'll get a list of recommendations based 351 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 2: on the autism strategy and based on blah blah blah blah, 352 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 2: and and you'll get autism specific services. If your child 353 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 2: gets a Turet's diagnosis, they're not going to get anything 354 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: like the sorts of services you get for autism, and 355 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 2: they're going to get a much smaller set of recommendations. 356 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: And they get nothing for ADHD. 357 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 2: You've got these silos that have been generated. Now the 358 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 2: big problem we have in this field is why have 359 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 2: we generated these silos? Why? I mean, we look at 360 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: autism and at least eighty percent of kids with autism 361 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 2: have another neurodevelopmental condition like ADHD. We know the overlaps 362 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 2: about sixty percent, right, so we can just say most 363 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 2: kids with autism have ADHD. A lot of kids with autism, 364 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: We'll also have turets, a lot of kids with autism. 365 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 2: We'll also have language and learning disorders like dyslexia. So 366 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: like there's a lot of overlap, but we don't talk 367 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 2: about the overlap. We just talk about an individual diagnosis 368 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: and families spend a lot of money getting that one diagnosis. 369 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 2: So that's the background, and what we wanted to do 370 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: was go, well, hang on, let's just take something like 371 00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 2: executive function. Is there actually anything really unique about executive 372 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 2: function delays it's specific to autism versus other developmental conditions, 373 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: And what do we mean by executive function? Well, it's 374 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: executive function skills are some of the most important skills 375 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: for development. So it's about planning. It's about manipulating something 376 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 2: in your mind and then trying to come up with 377 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 2: a solution. It's about inhibiting your impulsive responses so that 378 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 2: you know, you don't just do what your emotions tell 379 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: you to do. You do things that are actually good 380 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 2: for yourself and for your family. So it's these sort 381 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 2: of higher level skills that regulate both problem solving and 382 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: impulse control and what we call cognitive flexibility, those sorts 383 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 2: of things. And so what we did is we looked 384 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 2: at every single study that compared two or more developmental 385 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 2: conditions since nineteen eighty, since autism first came into the manual, 386 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 2: and other disorders have come in and been around as well. 387 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 2: And what we found, in a nutshell was the differences 388 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: were so miniscule that it just wasn't worth considering as 389 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 2: a you know, the differences were largely there were no differences, 390 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 2: and so we should be thinking about executive function, delays 391 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: and needs in a trends diagnostic wade a way which 392 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 2: affects all kids with your own developmental conditions. Doesn't matter 393 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: what the diagnosis is. Now, why is that important? Let 394 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 2: me go back to the first bit, which is parents 395 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 2: are spending at least two years waiting for a diagnoses 396 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: of autism. Forget about that, I mean, don't forget about it. 397 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 2: We need we still need to do that, right, But 398 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: how about when you first got concerned, you start doing 399 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 2: some executive function assessments and other things that we think 400 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 2: you can do, and start putting supports in place straight away, 401 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 2: and the things that might actually help schools to manage, 402 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: you know, rather than you know, trying to split things 403 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: up with all the different diagnoses. What are the fundamental 404 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 2: things that we need to do to support kids and families? 405 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 1: Just trying to score the importance of this research that 406 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: you've done at them. It was published in Nature Human Behavior, 407 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: which is one of the most prestigious clinical journals globally 408 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: and for people who are not familiar with the term, 409 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: this was a meta analysis. So you've reviewed, as you said, 410 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: all of the papers that have been written. In the end, 411 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: you've synthesized more than one hundred and eighty studies in 412 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: this area into one condensed package. The overall picture says this, 413 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: and again my far too short summary is the overall 414 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: situation is that these neuro developmental conditions are very much 415 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: about executive function, the ability to inhibit, the ability to plan, 416 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: the ability to hold onto one thing in your mind 417 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: while working on another thing, the ability to switch tasks. 418 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: I mean, you think about ADHD and the monotasking it 419 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: kin gets hyper fixated and then the teacher says, no, 420 00:23:58,280 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: I want you to stop. It's time to do that 421 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: over there, and the child just goes berserk because like, no, no, no, no, 422 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,239 Speaker 1: it took me an hour to get here, and now 423 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: I'm here and I'm in this and you want me 424 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: to change, like it's so hard for them. And your 425 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,719 Speaker 1: research essentially found that executive function challenges appearance seems somewhat 426 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: consistent across, well almost entirely consistent across the different near 427 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: developmental conditions. So here's my question for you. Does that mean? 428 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I can imagine a parent who's sitting there going, well, 429 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: I got the autism diagnosis and I also got the 430 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: ADHD diagnosis. But does this essentially mean that ADHD and 431 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: autism are in some ways the same thing? Like, what 432 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: does this mean for a parent who's trying to understand 433 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: the child's diagnosis. 434 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: We're getting a better understanding that there are many common 435 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 2: factors underpind All neurodevelopmental conditions. Say yes, that there's going 436 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 2: to be lot If your child has autism, not only 437 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 2: are they greater risk of getting a much greater, much, 438 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 2: much greater risk of getting of being diagnosed with ADHD, 439 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 2: but they're also going to have needs that are very 440 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 2: similar to those with ad HD, even if they don't 441 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: meet the diagnostic criteria. The fundamental thing is there are 442 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: going to be lots of fundamental needs and cut across 443 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 2: all neurodevelopmental conditions that we need to start to support 444 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,719 Speaker 2: in a more integrated way. But at a high level, 445 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that autism and ADHD are the same thing. 446 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: There are things that differentiate, and there are important things 447 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 2: that separate them out. But I don't think our science 448 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 2: is sophisticated enough right now to be able to say 449 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 2: this is what's common, and these are the really unique things, 450 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: and this is what really matters. That's you know, what 451 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 2: really matters for what we need to do to those 452 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 2: kids in terms of providing support to give them the 453 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: best opportunity. And I think it's going to be largely 454 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff we do at an intervention 455 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: level is like trans diagnostic sort of stuff. It's all 456 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 2: about getting structures and supports in place, and you know, 457 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: learning environments in the right way, getting them potentially the 458 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 2: right medications. It's stuff that doesn't need necessarily need to 459 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 2: be silent for a specific diagnosis. 460 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: Professor Gustela is at the University of Sydney and joins 461 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: me on the Happy Families podcast today. You've brought up 462 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: medication provocative question in my social media reels lately, a 463 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: couple of things have come up. I think it has 464 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: a lot to do with the fact that RFK Jr. 465 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: May be coming into the United States to look after 466 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: health and so on. And I've had a few reels 467 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: come up that have been really pushing hard at the 468 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: idea that autism and this has been around for such 469 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: a long time. Autism is called cause by vaccines, and 470 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: specifically those reels where somebody will say, I've got twins. 471 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: They were vaccinated. One of them started to change their 472 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: behavior a short time later, the other one didn't. One 473 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: of them has an autism diagnosis, the other one doesn't. 474 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: The question is twofold. Therefore, what can we say about 475 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: vaccines and other environmental factors and neurodevelopmental conditions like autism 476 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: and Secondly, where does autism come from? 477 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, So the first question is pretty easy to answer, 478 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 2: and it's easy to answer because there's been a lot 479 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: of scientific studies conducted on the role of vaccines and 480 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 2: potentially causing autism, and even to the point where studies 481 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: have looked at the specific properties of the contents of 482 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: the vaccines, such as mercury, to try and understand if 483 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: there's any link associated with the specific properties of vaccines 484 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 2: and the development of autism. Okay, now there's one thing 485 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 2: we can't get away from. The one thing we can't 486 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: get away from is autism is often first identified at 487 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: the age of two, and vaccines that we're talking about 488 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: are often given to children at the age of two 489 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 2: because that's what that's the timeline that they're given. Right. 490 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 2: So there is this incidental, if you like, interaction where 491 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 2: parents will often report their child receiving a vaccine and 492 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 2: at some point in time after that noticing autism symptoms, 493 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 2: and that's sort of that relationship between the two is 494 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 2: what's partly generated a lot of the worry for parents. 495 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 2: But all these scientific studies have shown very very clearly 496 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: that none of the ingredients are associated with the development 497 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 2: of autism, and like there's been such an so many 498 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: different ways, whether you look at countries that didn't have 499 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 2: vaccines and then introduced vaccines and they've looked at the 500 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 2: autism rate, or you've had laboratory studies where they've massively 501 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 2: increased the ingredients of those specific ingredients to see how 502 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: it affects development in animals. For those studies, we know 503 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: that there's just no relationship there. And we can say 504 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 2: that with a really strong belief because the science around this. 505 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 2: Everyone's been so worried about it and there's been so 506 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 2: much hys theory about it for so long, the science 507 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: around is really quite robust. The most likely reason that 508 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 2: we have these constant conversations is because of a the 509 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 2: association and then B because there is a lot of 510 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 2: vaccines and we saw it with the COVID vaccines. They 511 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 2: often get caught up into narratives around government control or 512 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: big farmer and so there's a lot of suspicion around 513 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 2: this idea of control and vaccine. So I think it's 514 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 2: just going to be an internal conversation that goes on 515 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 2: while people remain suspicious about these things. 516 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: So where do you think that it does come from. 517 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 2: The heritability of it is the most significant factor, so 518 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: that means largely genetics. We know also, just going back 519 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 2: to my trends diagnostic pedal, is that the genetics may 520 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 2: not necessarily be specific to autism, but if you are 521 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: autistic or your parents are autistic, that makes you more 522 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 2: susceptible to a range of neurodevelopmental conditions. But it's certainly 523 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 2: genetics play the biggest factor. The rest of it is associational, 524 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 2: and we think that, you know, the best science at 525 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 2: the moment is suggesting, well, maybe there are things that 526 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: can say you've got vulnerabilities there. Maybe there are things 527 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: that can push you over the edge of that vulnerability 528 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: to then lead you into develop the diagnosis. But you 529 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 2: have to have that significant vulnerability there, and then there's 530 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 2: a lot of debate around what those things could be. 531 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 2: Whether nutrition plays a part, whether living and being around 532 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 2: pollution might play a part. You know, stress might play 533 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 2: a role. There's a whole range of factors which we 534 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 2: can't they're really hard to pull apart causily, but we 535 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,719 Speaker 2: think if they do play a role, it is about 536 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 2: pushing development over a threshold where there was that genetic 537 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 2: vulnerability to begin with, and I don't think there's any 538 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: evidence that autism would develop without that genetic vulnerability in 539 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: the first place. 540 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: Following through on this executive function theme, what specific strategies 541 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: can parents use to support a child with executive function 542 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: challenges at home? 543 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 2: Life is busy for many many families, and it can 544 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: get chaotic very very quickly. And so for people without 545 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 2: executive function delays, they might be able to navigate all 546 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 2: the shifting needs, the different demands you know, reading and 547 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 2: just give an example, reading one thing and listening to another, 548 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 2: remembering and recalling information, need to make the bed, need 549 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: to pack my lunch, so many different things going on once. 550 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 2: Some people can navigate all that and get through. But 551 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 2: if you want to make life simple, structure, structure, structure, Yeah, 552 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 2: so kids, particularly with executive days, really really better effort 553 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 2: from lots of structure, So be really directive, have reminders, 554 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 2: lots of tip sheets, and along with that, as hard 555 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 2: as it can be, the more emotional people get, the 556 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 2: more anxious people get, the more executive function becomes even harder. 557 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 2: So you've just got it's a calm environment, lots of structure, 558 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: and then what the evidence shows is then supports around learning, 559 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 2: So they might need not so much because they're not 560 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: non intelligent, because often it's not about intelligence. Maybe it's 561 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: about making sense of the information and structuring it. How 562 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 2: do I go, I have a lot of kids, how 563 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 2: do I even start an assignment? You know, Like I know, 564 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 2: I can almost envisage what the assignment's got to look like, 565 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: but I just don't know what I need to do 566 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: to start it and put it together. So it's often 567 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 2: having a tutor or one or a parent to really 568 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: sit down and assist them just to put the things 569 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 2: together and develop the habits and skills that enable them 570 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 2: to get things together. Tutors often help, and the literature 571 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 2: shows that they could often make a huge difference around 572 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 2: again not about knowledge, but around organization and structuring things 573 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 2: and providing reminders. And if you find your kids are 574 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: like leaving everything at the last minute, then you know, 575 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: having someone that can help them start earlier and also 576 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 2: to identify what's going on anxiety wise. When they do 577 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 2: start early, there's probably a whole range of things going 578 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 2: on there. 579 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: When you say structure, I start smiling to myself because 580 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: given the hereditary nature of many of the near development 581 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: or conditions we've discussed today. 582 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 3: Now, if you've got a parent who's got ADHD, absolutely 583 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 3: they're going I want to help my kid to have structure, 584 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 3: but I don't know what that is myself, Like, it 585 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 3: can be extremely challenging for them. 586 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's step into the school text for a sec. Yeah, 587 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: what should parents tell teachers about executive function challenges? Like 588 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: how does a parent effectively advocate for their child to 589 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: get the support that they need at school, especially when 590 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: there is no diagnosis yet or there's funding challenges or 591 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,919 Speaker 1: I mean, in our case, we just withdrew our child 592 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: from school because we found it was it was just 593 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: too hard in spite of our best efforts to advocate 594 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: for our child. 595 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, there's never a right way here, 596 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 2: and this is an incredibly charged environment, and we know 597 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 2: that teachers and schools are, you know, particularly the public 598 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 2: systems are under enormous pressure to deliver. So we recognize 599 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 2: the complexity of the question you're about You've asked, right, 600 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 2: but at the end of the day, the kids should 601 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 2: be at the center of it, and the kids whose 602 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 2: needs really matter, we want them to succeed the most. 603 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 2: And so to answer the question specifically, I think parents 604 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 2: may be the best advocate, but also getting a system 605 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 2: of support around the child world is really important. So 606 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: you know, I think having a pediatrician or a psychologist 607 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 2: or a depending on the needs that an I T 608 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 2: or speech you that can advocate alongside you is really 609 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 2: really useful because not only do you bring a huge 610 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 2: uh you know, detailed knowledge of your child, but you 611 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 2: also bring a degree that where you need someone who's 612 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: independent to communicate. So I think getting getting that team 613 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 2: of support around you is really important. Secondly, teachers, you know, 614 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 2: are they the best place to start? There's often learning 615 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 2: support teams, and you know they may be the best 616 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: if you're like educated in the space, yes, and then 617 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 2: then may be the teacher in combination with them. And 618 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 2: then also I guess really practical stuff that if you 619 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 2: find stuff works at home for your child, advocating really 620 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 2: practical stuff to the teacher is useful. As you know, 621 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 2: teachers have a big job to do, so you know, 622 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 2: being aware of what their capacity is is important as well. 623 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 2: And then you know, this is a moving space. So 624 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 2: one thing I've often said to parents, if the school 625 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 2: is one that doesn't meet the needs of your child, 626 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 2: don't be afraid to shift schools. And it may not 627 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 2: necessarily be about the school. It may be about the 628 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 2: teacher at that school that is just not the right fit. 629 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 2: Don't be afraid to go to different places to get 630 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,439 Speaker 2: the support that your child needs because and of course 631 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 2: it could be about the peer groups. So you know, 632 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 2: if it really isn't working and you're finding yourself hitting 633 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 2: up your head up against the brick wall, you don 634 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 2: can get a lot of gain by getting into different schools. 635 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: One more question on executive function. How does a parent 636 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 1: explain to a child in a way that builds their 637 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: confidence rather than creating shame and a feeling that they're 638 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: not enough. What's going on? Like, how do you sit 639 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: down with a child and say, we've done these tests 640 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: and euutistic or we've done these tests and we think 641 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: ADHD is the reason that these challenges exist you have 642 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 1: in your developmental condition. 643 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 2: Yes, So I think that what parents need to do 644 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 2: really is the first thing is we're not talking about 645 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 2: a lot of deep stuff when it comes to executive function. 646 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 2: It's kids needing to structure and support and you know, 647 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 2: make their bed and get dressed, and if they're really 648 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 2: struggling with it, they'll know they're struggling with it, and 649 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 2: just being supportive and providing the steps and the structure 650 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 2: that's needed for them to do it, but being open 651 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,919 Speaker 2: that maybe they actually need that structure and support because 652 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 2: it teaches them not that they have a deficit, but 653 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 2: actually if they're struggling with something, maybe there's supports they 654 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 2: can reach out for, or maybe things that they can 655 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 2: do to structure their own activities to do to help themselves. 656 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 2: So I think that the first step is really to 657 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 2: make sure that you're doing it in a supportive way, 658 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 2: but you are providing different steps to help kids complete 659 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 2: the tasks. The second thing is, you know, whenever you 660 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 2: give information, always give it in a really positive way. 661 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 2: And you can remember also all the strengths that you 662 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,439 Speaker 2: recognize in your child. And we know that caregivers. We've 663 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 2: done lots of studies that have shown caregivers know lots 664 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 2: of strengths about their child and they talk about them, 665 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,439 Speaker 2: but when they come to sort of the problem, they'll 666 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 2: often not only talk about the problem. So just make 667 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 2: sure you bring in some of that strength based stuff 668 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 2: and make sure that they feel valued and heard when 669 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 2: you're talking about it. But don't be afraid to highlight 670 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 2: that maybe kids that they need to do certain things 671 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 2: to succeed, and that'll teach them how to navigate things 672 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 2: in the future. 673 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: A technical question for you that is getting back into 674 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 1: some cutting edge research. There's been some fascinating studies done 675 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: using rat models that have caught my attention that suggest 676 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: that the cerebellum. So for people who are not familiar 677 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: with the cerebellum, it's kind of top of the brain 678 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: stem back of your brain, right at the very back 679 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: at the bottom of your brain, the back of your head. 680 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: And what it does is it helps It's attached to 681 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: about eighty percent of the neurons in our brain, so 682 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: it helps us with breathing and digestion and all of 683 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: the automatic processes that keep us alive. But it's also 684 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: associated with automating behaviors like understanding social cues and remembering 685 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: physical actions like how to pick something up like a 686 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,479 Speaker 1: pen or a pencil and hold it correctly. So this 687 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: research that's caught my attention suggests that since the cerebellum 688 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: is so involved in automating certain behaviors properly, it potentially 689 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: also explains challenges in ADHD autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia with ADHD. 690 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: Automating in terms of long term planning with autism, nothing 691 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: automating in terms of reading social cues with dyslexia. Nothing 692 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: automating in terms of remembering what that letter is symbolic 693 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: of or represents in terms of dyspraxia, not remembering how 694 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: to hold the pencil. Are you familiar with the research 695 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,439 Speaker 1: and what do you think it might mean? 696 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that general idea is pervades 697 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 2: a lot of the science around autism and neurodevelopmental conditions 698 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: in general. And you're talking about cerebellum focused research, but 699 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 2: you can also put that into a front alone example 700 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 2: where you've got goal development and set shifting and switching attention. 701 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 2: And if kids aren't paying attention enough, or they aren't 702 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 2: able to coordinate the information enough, or they're feeling overwhelmed, 703 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 2: then they cannot consolidate that information for learning and they 704 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,839 Speaker 2: won't be able to recall that information when they need it. 705 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 2: And so that general idea or model is, you know, 706 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 2: how we consider a lot of neurodevelopmental conditions to I 707 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 2: guess change the way that kids learn and where the 708 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 2: supports are needed in terms of providing that structure and 709 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 2: support to be able to sort of help with consolidation 710 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 2: and retrieval. 711 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 1: I love that. So essentially, the executive function the work 712 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: that you've been focused on. That's the top front of 713 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: the brain, right, the prefront of course, that's right. This 714 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:30,399 Speaker 1: is this is down the other end of the brain. 715 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,280 Speaker 1: But you're suggesting that if one of them is no online, 716 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,399 Speaker 1: the other one can't function well, and so that works. 717 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 2: That's right. So I think we in the nineties we 718 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,399 Speaker 2: thought about, you know, brain systems as different discrete components, right, 719 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 2: so that we had this part of the brain is 720 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 2: only responsible for. 721 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: Memory left brain or on right brain. 722 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the big shift over the last 723 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,399 Speaker 2: twenty years has been acknowledging that different brain systems, well, 724 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:04,240 Speaker 2: they all interact, and you know, if there's usually around coordination, 725 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 2: this is why executive function is so important. If there 726 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 2: are issues around the coordination of brain systems, it has 727 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 2: a broad effect across It's a connectivity issue rather than 728 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 2: just one specific thing not doing it what it should do. 729 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: Adam, you're a mountain of knowledge. The conversation has been fascinating, 730 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: it's been practical, but it's also been wonderfully insightful, and 731 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: my sense is that for parents who are grappling with 732 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: the challenges that come with raising children who experience neurodevelopmental conditions, 733 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,400 Speaker 1: my sense is that you've been a ray of hope 734 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: and like I said, just just a mountain of knowledge 735 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: and information. So grateful for your time. You've been extremely 736 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: generous in what you've shared. Thank you for your input today. 737 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: Is there anything at all that you think that we've 738 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: either missed or that you'd just like to grab a 739 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: highlighter and scribble as hard as you can so that 740 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: parents really grab that one thing and hold on to it. 741 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,879 Speaker 2: The one thing that I would want parents to do 742 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 2: is to get this like to battle, to battle to 743 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 2: get the support they need. It's not we don't. Unfortunately, 744 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 2: our system is not easy to navigate. It's not like 745 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 2: getting your teeth cleaned. It's it's it's excuse my friendships 746 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 2: bloody hard and for parents, it's going to be a 747 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 2: long term battle at the moment until our system is better. 748 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 2: To get the support that your child and your family needs, 749 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 2: and to know that there are many many other families 750 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 2: in the same position as yourself, and to persist that that. 751 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 2: You know, I think it's it's about persistence and and 752 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 2: you know, for those parents that are doing that to 753 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 2: my hat's off to you because you're advocating for your 754 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 2: child and that's it's a really important thing. Adam. 755 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time. Just hearing you say that, I'm 756 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 1: thinking of all all the emails and all the social 757 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: media messages that I see where parents are saying I'm 758 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: dying here. I'm just tearing my hair up. This is 759 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,880 Speaker 1: so so hard. Really appreciate your compassion and the wonderful 760 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: work that you do and again your generosity. 761 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:07,000 Speaker 2: Today. 762 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time talking about this today. 763 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: You have so many people and so many things that 764 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: are pressuring you for your time. So thank you for 765 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: helping us to get this message out today. 766 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,400 Speaker 2: Thanks Justin, It's been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed it. 767 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,319 Speaker 1: Professor Adam Guastella is at the University of Sydney and 768 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: doing incredible work advocating for the needs of children with 769 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: neurodevelopmental conditions, and he's joined me today on the Happy 770 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: Families podcast. The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin 771 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: Roland from Bridge Media. If you would like more information 772 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: and resources that can make your family happier. Please visit 773 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: us at happy families dot com dot a you, and 774 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,279 Speaker 1: we'll link to as many things as we can that 775 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: Adam's done in our show notes to give you that 776 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:47,960 Speaker 1: extra support