WEBVTT - Summer series: Why is Taylor Swift so popular? 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.480 Already and this is this is the Daily Off. This 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:14.920 is the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense. Good 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:17.680 morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Tuesday, the 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:21.720 twenty fourth of December. Happy Christmas Eve. I'm Billy and 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:25.360 we are back for another episode of tda's summer series. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.160 We're here to keep your company over the summer break 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.800 with the best of tda's deep dives from the year 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:38.159 that was. Today, we're talking about Taylor Swift's rise and 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.919 Rise and Rise. Earlier this month, as I'm sure you'll know, 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:45.840 she finished her Ears tour, which lasted twenty one months. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.959 It was the highest grossing tour in history, with more 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:52.120 than two billion dollars sold just in tickets alone, So 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.920 that's not even including the merch that was sold, and 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.160 it's double the gross ticket sales of any other concert 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:02.600 tour in history. So we have just one question, how 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:07.040 exactly did Taylor Swift become so popular? Earlier this year 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.840 I spoke to Kate Patterson, who is a fan studies 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.640 PhD candidate at r MIT in Melbourne, about just that. 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.360 Here is that chat. Kate Patterson, thank you so much 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:18.559 for joining the Daily OZ. 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:19.880 Thank you so much for having me. 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:22.839 I want to start by acknowledging that there are people 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.319 who would have seen today's pod title and rolled their 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:31.080 eyes because they're tired of seeing Taylor Swift's name literally 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.360 everywhere at the moment. So why should people who aren't 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.319 fans care about Taylor Swift and the impact that she has. 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:40.600 I mean, I think if. 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.520 You're somebody who's interested in culture and the things that 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.679 people are talking about, you really can't ignore Taylor Swift. 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:48.840 I think we're at a point where, even if you 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.080 might not like the music, you really can't deny that 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.480 she's really just infiltrated all different parts of culture, whether 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:56.720 it's the impact she's going to have on the economy 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.760 with the Ears Tour, whether it's winning the fourth album 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.480 of the Grammy, which obviously, as we know, was record 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:06.040 breaking last week. I really just think it would be 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:08.480 remiss of us to not talk about Taylor. 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:09.079 Swift right now. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.920 Certainly in my lifetime, I can't remember hype anywhere near 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:18.040 this surrounding an artist coming to Australia. Has this kind 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:20.040 of obsession ever happened before? 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:21.240 It's interesting. 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:22.840 I feel like this week a lot of people have 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.680 been comparing her to Beatlemania back in you know, the 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.280 sixties when the Beatles came here. But I think it's 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.919 really hard to compare different artists from different sort of eras, 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.160 just given that right now, with social media and the Internet, 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.639 it's such a different time to back then. I mean, 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.720 I think fan communities are definitely not a new phenomenon, 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:43.360 but I think what's unique with Taylor right now is 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:45.320 we do have so much choice at the moment with 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.799 what we listen to, what we watch, what we want 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:49.640 to sort of talk about. And I think for an 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.520 artist to have had that kind of widespread appeal and 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:57.800 hype that Taylor has right now is pretty significant. I mean, Beyonce, 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.720 i'd say, has had a similar kind of a legacy 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:02.960 that she's building in terms of what she's doing and 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:05.880 the hype around what you know, she just announced her 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:06.839 new music. 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:08.640 This week as well. But yeah, I think that's what 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:10.200 kind of makes Taylor unique. 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.919 And I think also as somebody who's studying fan studies, 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.680 I think her fandom is so engaged and they are 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.720 so you know, loyal to her and involved in so 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.000 many different ways. And I think that's another aspect of 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.920 why we've seen this kind of hype that we perhaps 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:26.840 haven't seen in a little while when it comes to 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:28.519 an artist coming to Australia. 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:30.359 I was going to say, I feel like, growing up, 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.040 I always heard about Beatlemania and it feels like Taylor 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:38.400 Swift coming is our generation's equivalent of that, or is 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.280 she even bigger than that? I don't know. It's so 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.440 hard to understand what it was like back then compared 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:43.400 to what it's like now. 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:45.000 Yeah, I think that's the thing. 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.600 I think it's hard to compare one for the other, 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.360 and there are definitely some similarities and definitely some differences. 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.600 I think with Taylor to being a female artist coming 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:59.080 here as well, that's been really interesting. She often sort 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.760 of gets compared to these other sort of legacy acts 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:03.920 and people aren't sure whether we should be talking about 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.600 her in the same category as the Beatles, for example, 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.200 and I think that's due to some kind of broader 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.040 gendered things we have with the music industry. 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.520 I really want to understand why Taylor Swift is so unique, 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:17.640 because it feels like there are pop stars, then there 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.200 are superstars, and then it feels like there's Taylor Swift 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.479 who is just completely in her own field. And I 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.960 want to understand what is it about Taylor Swift and 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:27.880 what she has done that has meant that she has 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.600 managed to break through in the way that she has. 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.039 I mean, it's an interesting question. I think that's what 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.600 everybody's trying to figure out right now. I think the 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.360 start is she has released a lot of music. I mean, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.239 since the last time she was in Australia, we had Lover, 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:43.880 We've had Folklore Evermore, Midnights, We've. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:45.000 Had all the re recordings. 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:47.200 Like, there's just such a volume of work for people 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.160 to engage with across different genres too. I know a 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.560 lot of people who maybe aren't big country music fans 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.839 or aren't big pop music fans, really came on board 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.880 with Folklore and Evermore and sort of realize all of 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.200 a sudden that perhaps they, you know, we're a Taylor 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.320 Swift fan, or that they liked some of the music 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.680 that she had And so I think from that point 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.280 of view, she's managed to accumulate a sort of broader 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.080 fan base than she had originally. 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:12.840 And I think also she has been doing a. 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.160 Lot of things outside of music that have had an impact. 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:17.480 As I mentioned the re recording, a lot of people 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.160 have been interested in that sort of story of her 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.640 going back and re recording these albums, and while she's 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.520 not the first artist to do it, I think the 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:27.479 way that she's done it, and the way that the 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.279 fans have gotten behind her as well, and the way 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.919 that I guess she's advocating for other musicians in the 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.280 industry and trying to make things better with the power 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.719 that she has. I think in the documentary Miss Americana, 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:40.240 somebody says, you know, Taylor Swift is the music industry, 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:42.880 and it's really hard to talk about any kind of 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:45.480 aspect of the music industry right now that hasn't had, 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.280 you know, some conversation about Taylor Swift. 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.320 I also really want to understand what the role of 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.360 social media is in her success and how has she 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.599 used that differently to other people, because all artists have 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.400 social media, But what is it about how she has 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:02.720 used it that has meant she has been able to 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.080 cultivate this fan base. 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:05.640 I think with. 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.560 Taylor, right from the beginning, she's always made a point 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.240 of engaging with the fans and keeping them in the 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.640 loop and really making them a part of her success 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.440 in a way that has meant that a they've come 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.360 along for the journey with her. But now that she's 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.040 at this point where she's so huge, she doesn't really 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:23.920 need the media in the same way that a lot 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.520 of other artists do, just given how famous and popular 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:29.680 she is right now. And so she's got that kind 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.799 of direct relationship with her fans where often she'll announce 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.560 things to them for the first time, whether it's on Instagram, 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.400 you know, TikTok, whatever it might be. And I think 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.360 having that ability to sort of shape the messaging and 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.400 engage directly with the people that are engaging with her music, 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:48.040 I think has been really important, and for things like 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.440 when she was having that is she with Scooter Born 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:52.919 and the Masters, is being able to just literally directly 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:54.919 say to the fans like, this is what's happening, this 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:56.760 is where I kind of need your support. And I 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.839 think she's always been very good at mobilizing her fans 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.479 that way. And so while other artists definitely use social media, 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:05.880 I think for some people it's used as more of 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.080 kind of like a broadcast channel where they just sort 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.360 of update people. Think about somebody like Harry Styles, who 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:13.560 you know, has a great relationship with his fans, but 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:15.960 he doesn't really engage online. He kind of just posts 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.680 updates of what he's doing, and so I think it 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.520 takes a long time to cultivate that, and I think 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:22.360 for Taylor, she's done that right from the beginning, and 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.360 that's why it's working so well for her. 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.400 Now, Yeah, you're saying that makes me think about how 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.080 I follow Taylor Swift on Instagram, and it feels like 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.680 she's talking directly at me somehow, even though she's speaking 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.840 to hundreds of billions, if not billions, But it genuinely 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.520 feels like the communication style makes her feel like a 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.480 close friend almost, whereas everyone else I follow on social media, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.080 I don't really feel that close or direct communication for me. 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.200 I think that's what Taylor Swift's strength is, whether it's 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.360 through her music and through her songwriting or through the 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.360 way that she engages with fans online and offline. For me, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:56.880 Taylor Swift is just so good at connecting with people. 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.360 She's able to relate to people. You know, you listen 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.640 to a Tailor'swift song and there's always somebody who's like, 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:03.400 oh my god, I feel like this was written about me. 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:05.840 Or as you said, I think in the way that 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:07.840 she does talk to her fans. She talks to them 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:09.920 like friends. She doesn't talk to them as I'm this 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:10.800 big celebrity. 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:12.920 Yeah. I think that's what's so interesting is that she 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.360 feels relatable even though she could not be less relatable. 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.560 I want to move to fan culture more broadly. It 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.960 feels like it is predominantly led by young women and girls. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:25.160 Why is that. 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:27.200 I think a lot of Taylor Swift fans and other 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.560 pop music fans are seen or perceived to be, you know, 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:32.640 predominantly female, and while there. 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:34.320 Is obviously diversity. 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.839 There within any fan community, I think those overarching perceptions 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.240 have over the years often sometimes had a negative impact 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.520 because they're seen as hysterical or delusional, or their fandom 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.520 is like really trivial, because that's just kind of the 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:52.600 way that we treat women's interests unfortunately in society, is that, 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.200 you know, we just kind of dismissed them compared to 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.360 other things. And I think that's definitely shifted over the 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.000 last couple of years with Barbie and with Taylor's Swift, 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:02.520 and I guess with young women sort of coming into 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:06.280 their own around really celebrating the things that they like 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.160 and celebrating the things that they're interested in. But I 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.280 always find it interesting, obviously when we compare to something 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.560 like sports fandom, where we don't have those same kind 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.120 of conversations over their fandom being too much or their 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:23.680 expressions of passion being seen as you know, overly emotional, 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:25.120 for example, in the same way. 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:26.880 That we might do for pop fans. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.040 And so yeah, with my research, I'm really interested in 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.560 looking at the ways that fans participate in these communities, 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.640 and particularly for young women, how being part of a 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.559 fan community can be quite beneficial in terms of that connection, 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.199 in terms of building a sense of self and also 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:45.120 even sort of learning particular skills that then they can 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.400 go on to use in you know, the creative industries 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.160 or other sort of male dominie industries down the track. 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.880 That comparison between you know, young men or men who 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.679 are obsessed with sport for example, and how we treat 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.599 that compared to how we treat the fans artists like 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:02.640 Tailor Swift is super interesting. I don't think I've ever 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:04.400 fully thought about that. 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:06.960 Yeah, and I think definitely it's sort of changing, but 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.680 I think it's important, you know, particularly as Taylor Swift 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:12.000 gets to Australia, I have seen already. A lot of 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.280 people say, oh, it's already too much. I'm sick of 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:16.640 seeing all these fans. I'm sick of seeing you know, 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.520 all of this behavior. And I think, you know, unless 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:21.559 you're doing the same thing for people at the football 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:23.240 or at the super Bowl or anything like that, I 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.520 think it's just important to just think about the ways 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.000 that perhaps we have a double standard when it comes 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.360 to the ways that people are passionate about things. 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.960 Just lastly, I've been hearing a lot about how it 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.000 feels like Tailorswift is at the peak of her career 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.360 and how long can this kind of success go on for? 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.160 Do you think that this level of fame can be 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:43.880 sustained for long periods of time? 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:46.120 I mean, I think in terms of Australia, obviously, the 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.600 fact that she's coming here this month means that there's 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.120 a real heightened interest in her that I think will 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:55.240 drop off once she's left from the broader society, obviously, 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.079 not for the fans. It's interesting because I think when 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.640 we think back to nineteen eighty nine, and you know 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.320 that sort of twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen time, a lot 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:05.840 of people thought that was the peak of Taylor Swift's fame. 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.760 You know, she really was everywhere as well. She'd just 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.240 won the Grammy again, and you know, she was just 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.040 infiltrating the culture in so many ways, and she's really 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.200 eclipsed that over the last year, which I think is 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.679 really interesting. So I think we could never say is 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.560 this the peak, But I think she just has reached 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.360 a level that I think will definitely be hard to top, 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:27.440 both for her and for other people over the next 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:27.959 few years. 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.040 But she's still producing so much music. 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.679 She's still wanting to be a creative person and keeping 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.800 producing things. So who knows where the next few years 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:38.800 will take her and if this is something we'll see 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:40.120 more of over the next few years. 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:42.480 Okay, thank you so much for joining us on the 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:43.079 daily ons. 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:44.120 Thanks so much for having me. 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.520 That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.440 to tda's summer series. If you're on break, we hope 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:52.720 that you are having a relaxing time, and if you're 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.440 still at work, we also hope that you are having 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:59.240 a great day. We'll be back again tomorrow with another 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.640 episode from our summer series. Until then, have a great day. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.200 My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:14.199 Bunjelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.480 that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:20.079 Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.960 Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.760 first peoples of these countries, both past and present.