WEBVTT - THE MAKING OF REALITY TV OVER 20 YEARS 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:01.920 Welcome back to TV Reload. 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:04.880 My name's Benjamin Norris, and on this podcast I'll be 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.400 going behind the scenes with the biggest players in television. 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.920 I want to thank everyone for your support of this podcast. 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.040 I do read all of the reviews and it is 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:18.279 quite amazing how supportive everyone has been. Leaving reviews does 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:21.759 play a huge part in the podcast distribution ability. I 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.320 don't officially know how all that works, but I hear 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:28.000 it is important, especially on iTunes, so please leave a review. 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:30.920 For those of you who are new to the podcast today, 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:33.760 welcome and please do me a favor and press subscribe 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.600 so you don't miss the weekly juicy stories from behind 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.519 the scenes of television. If you could also share this 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.559 episode with friends and family, I would love to expand 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.560 our little community of lifelind at TV enthusiasts. On today's episode, 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.199 I have someone very special to me. He was the 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.800 other executive producer on my series of Big Brother. Yes, 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.960 it is Chris Blackburn, a very accomplished series producer. We 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.320 do discuss a lot of Big Brother today on the podcast, 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:01.800 and I try not to be too introspective about that, 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.240 but to be fair, Chris worked on Big Brother a 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:06.920 lot and to not discuss his knowledge on casting in 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:09.280 process and to not dig away at some of the 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.120 stories from behind the scenes would have been a huge mistake. 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.000 Chris has decades of experience that includes reality shows like 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:19.200 Beauty in the Geek, My Kitchen Rules and Temptation Island, 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:22.720 which I believe was the first reality show in Australia 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.280 even before Big Brother. I could name so many more shows, 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:28.200 but I think we need to get into this episode 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.200 because it is a long one. However, it will be 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.760 worth every second because Chris is warm, funny and brutally honest. 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.200 My head is still spinning from what he really thought 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.200 of the former host of Big Brother, and also fascinated 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.880 with his opinions on cancel culture, amongst other things. Let's 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.040 get started with today's episode. I'd like to welcome Chris 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:51.520 Blackburn to TV reloading. 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:54.760 This whole You know they edited me to look something 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:59.120 like different. That's bullshit. Previously on Temptation Island. Have a 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:01.160 lot of first shows that I do. I did the 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:01.960 first Big Brother. 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:03.559 Yes he's a Big Brother. 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:08.840 The best real scenes are better than anything in a movie. Gentlemen, 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.520 let's take this to the kitchen. I detest cancel culture. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.680 Previously on Beauty and the Geek Australia. 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:19.720 The thing we always used to say to people and 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:24.079 they always used to ignore, was was b yourself. 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:26.160 How are you mate? Are you well? 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.399 Yeah, very well, living in Freemantle at the moment, doing 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:31.120 another show? Or life is good? 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.040 Yeah, you're working on a show in Perth at the moment. 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:34.600 What's what's the show that you're working on. 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.760 Well, it's attached to a hospital, that's all I can say. 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.760 It's one of those medical dramas. So it'll be out 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.040 later in the year on Channel nine and Discovery Channel 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:44.800 in the UK. 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:46.400 Is it a fun show to work on? 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:51.280 I have, unfortunately, have a lot of first shows that 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:53.799 I do. I did the first Big Brother in twenty 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:55.160 but it's twenty years ago. Do you know? 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:55.720 Wow? 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.080 Did you realize that twenty years ago? I did the 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.720 very first Big Brother, which is involved all these I 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.960 don't know, two hundred staff and we had no idea 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:07.239 how to make it apart from we'd watched the show's 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.560 overseas and it was this monster and I did so 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:13.560 I did the first series of that. So the first 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.160 series of any show has all sorts of things that 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.400 have to get ironed out and the format, and not 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:20.720 so much Big Brother the format was clear, but new 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.359 shows you've got to iron out the format. You've got 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:27.520 to get the broadcaster happy, the people you're filming happy. 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.800 So they're always more work and more problems. But you 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.880 know that's the gig, as they say, as the young 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:35.760 people say, well, you've worked. 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.000 In television for decades now. You know, we won't say 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:40.320 how old you are, but what is it that you, 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.680 as an executive producer bring to the shows? I mean, 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.440 what would you say is the Blackburn brand. 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.800 I'm only a serious producer now, so I'm going down 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.520 the other side of the career mountain. I'm slipping, slipping, 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:56.520 slipping down, slipping backwards. But you know what, I don't 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.760 actually mind. It's much easier slipping backwards than trying to 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.600 climb forward. It requires a lot less energyeah. I mean, 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:05.280 I've done a lot of the same kinds of shows. 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:07.600 So this medical one I did it. It's where I 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:12.280 met my coep on Big Brother, Alex Mavrodykis. We met 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.440 on a hospital show in Southampton. I think he was, 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:17.760 if you could believe, at twenty one when I met him. 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.880 So we did this show for the BBC, which was 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.680 just medical reality, you know, accident emergencies up on the 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.240 wards and stuff anyway, So I guess they get it. 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:29.600 They get someone who's done a lot of different kinds 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:31.840 of shows. And I always say to people, you know, 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.039 it's not that you're any good, it's that you've made 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.359 all the mistakes there are to make, and so you 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.880 know not to make them. So I guess that's It's 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.120 like a mechanic. It's like anyone is that you just 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:44.400 know what not to do more than what to do. 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:48.440 You know, you've mentioned Alex Meverdykas and I remember, you know, 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:49.960 being on a show with the two of you and 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:53.440 thinking and still remembering now that your two of you 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.560 got along like brothers from memory, What do you think 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:58.320 made you to such a powerful duo? 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:00.520 Well, they said we were a bit like the odd couple, 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.440 because he's a bit more, you know, out there and social, 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.960 and I'm sort of the opposite. But I think we've 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.359 get on well because we don't really go for the 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.480 bullshit behind the scenes. We just call it as it is, 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.080 so we neither of us pretends to. 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:17.160 Be something you're not. 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:21.359 Well, I suppose we do pretend. That's stretching it a 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:23.640 bit far, but we take it with a grain of salt. 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.080 You know, TV is no different to you know, driving 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.359 the truck or any other thing that you do for 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:30.760 a living. You just you get attracted to it, you 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.440 do it, you learn it, and you know, you do 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:36.400 it for forty years, and then you go to the 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:37.040 nursing home. 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:38.640 Well, I thank you too, might end up in the 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.000 nursing home together. I just remember being at the Logis 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.599 one year, and you know, most people who work together, 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:46.920 they go and sit at the Logis together, but then 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:48.800 at the after party they separate, you know, and you 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:50.720 can tell that they're not genuine friends. They go off 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.200 and mingle with other people. Where I remember that logis, 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.559 the two of you were inseparable, you know, you still 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:58.880 you were talking at the start of the Logis and 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.120 I think it was like three and you both were 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:05.919 still talking together, and I thought that was amazing that 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.760 you had that friendship, you know, behind the scenes. 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.040 Yeah, we have been we've been friends for well, we've 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.520 been friends since Southampton, so we've been friends for toward 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.480 too many years, twenty five years or something. I remember 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:20.960 that logis. There were two logos that I went to 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.080 and there was one where who was it that. 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:24.760 Might have been? 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:26.960 Was it Tully? I don't know. Someone was trying to 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:31.880 get into the after party, and I remember I was 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.400 at this one and she was trying to get it 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.000 out anyway. Alex had gone to the doorman and tried 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.120 to work his magic, and then he came back to 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:40.960 me and said, oh, she's in tears and she can't 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.640 get in. And the logis after parties, it's not sort 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.440 of it's hard to get into. You can't just you 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.240 can't gate crash it, which she just found. I hope 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:50.440 I'm talking about the right person. 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.960 No spell, you're missing. It was a stell that from it. 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.800 Was well, she was crying her eyes out and trying. 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:00.800 I think she was crying around just just as a 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.359 tactic to get in. And Alex told me what was happening. 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:06.120 So I said, look, I'll go to the I'll go 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.440 and you know, I'll reason with these people. I'll get 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:11.800 her in, you know. And I went to the door 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:14.760 and I did no good at all. I was like, 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.200 she's a star of one of your show. And it 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.960 was the nine party, wasn't it was a Channel nine party? Yeah, 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.640 she's one of our stars, and she's done so much 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:25.480 for the show, and you know, what the hell does 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:27.440 it matter. It's just one more person. There's one hundred 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.320 in there. And it was just like, if we say 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.560 yes to her, we opened the floodgates. But I remember 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.040 that one from the logis that was fun. 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:35.760 Well. 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:37.320 Alex came over to me and he'd had a lot 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:39.680 to drink by that point, and he said, you're the 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.280 winner of this show and you've got some star power. 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.800 You need to go over and get her in. And 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.080 Layla said to me, it was like, why would we 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:48.600 let her in? 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:49.280 She's a bitch. 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:54.720 And I went over and spoke to Vicky, who was 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:55.680 the head of publicity. 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:56.480 I spoke to. 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.240 Everyone I could to try and get her in, and 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.000 she was never nice to me. Actually, I don't know 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.240 why I was trying to help her, but I just 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.560 remember thinking she had a lot of guts though to 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:11.040 still be standing there hours later trying to get in, 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:12.600 Like I just thought, why would you bother? 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:15.720 I know it was I went to I did the 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.760 same thing. I went to the Channel Line publicity person. 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.000 But by the time I was, you know, on her 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.640 case trying to get her in. She should have seen 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:26.240 the riding on the wall like that. You know, I 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.480 was the last, you know, the last guy in to 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:30.040 try and get her in there, and I had no 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:30.680 luck at all. 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.040 So I begged, I reckon. I was there for half 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:35.600 an hour trying to beg for her to get in. 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:39.200 And I remember Alex said to me, she could throw 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.120 herself off the west Gate Bridge over this. 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.760 You know, she's so upset. You know, we don't want 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:44.320 her to die. 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:46.760 And I'm such an EmPATH, but I knew that she 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:48.960 didn't like me and I but yet I heard that, 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:51.640 and I remembered being like, I've got I've got to 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:52.720 get this girl in, you know. 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:54.160 But they never let her in. 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:56.000 And the weird thing was she was still standing there 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.280 when I left, and I sort of dodged around her. 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.240 And then for years she's told people that I was 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.679 nasty in wouldn't help her get into the logis, but 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:05.560 she never knew that. 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:06.960 She never knew the truth. I don't know. 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:08.920 I've never explained it to her that, you know, we all 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.079 wasted so much time trying to get the stupid go 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:16.280 into the logies. Anyway, I still can't believe that you 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.040 got the cast right for Big brother in twenty twelve 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.960 and twenty thirteen, But then that twenty fourteen series was 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.920 a bit of a shocker. Really, was there a different 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.280 process with the selection for that series. 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.280 I'm not so sure that it wor well, you're probably right. 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:33.640 It probably was the cast, but we also had a 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.160 problem that suddenly they wanted like ninety minutes a night, 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:39.800 four nights a week or I can't remember exactly, but 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.120 I remember that ninety minute shows and ninety minute shows 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:47.240 are really hard to fill, you know, even from twenty 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:49.880 four hours in the house. Sometimes it was a stretch 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.120 making a half hour show and then it went to 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.720 an hour, and then it went to ninety minutes. And 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.920 Channel nine seemed to have bought it for to fill 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:01.720 a large, you know, part of their schedule. They needed 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.960 a lot of television for their money. It's like not 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.480 having enough meat to go into stew, you know, you're 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.080 just like, you can only stretch it so far. So 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.480 I don't think the cast was I'd have a lot 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:15.440 of trouble, well they it says it all. I'd have 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:19.040 a lot of trouble remembering the cast. So twenty fourteen 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.000 was just I don't know, It's just like we were. 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:24.440 We were just struggling all the time, and those you 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.000 know that intruder thing is like, ah, to go back 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:28.959 to the stew analogy. It's like, oh, you know, this 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:31.640 Stew's not working, Let's just throw a whole lot more 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.319 people into it and see if it, you know, anything happens. 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.640 And I kept saying, well, I didn't keep saying, but 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:38.760 you know, if you put too many new people in, 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.960 you just dilute it. You dilute what you have, rather 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.680 than you're not enhancing it, you're diluting it. It's like 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.080 in a movie, you don't have you know, ten main 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.839 characters in the movie because no one can remember them, 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.439 or you want three or four that people lock onto 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.959 and all the rest are just acting, you know, support actors. 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.320 Interestingly enough, Alex actually to me when I was in Lockdown, 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.920 he said a few bits in peace about what the 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:05.480 series was going to be like. He said, oh, look, 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:07.120 there might be a few intruders, he said, but if 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:09.160 there's a lot of it, if you start seeing lots 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.840 of intruders turning up, it means the show's not working. 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.520 And I remember being so scared the whole time in 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:18.920 that series that it was going to end up on 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:20.640 go you know, the secondary channel. 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.640 That was the joke. It was like, but that was 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:26.319 always the fear. It's like, oh, you know. 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.239 Go away, it's what we used to go with the channel. 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:33.040 The doghouse, like sleeping in the spare room. You're going 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:33.280 to go. 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:38.400 It's time to go the whole show. Yeah, you worked 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:40.360 on so many series, I mean over the years, right 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:42.280 from series one. Not to say that you did them all, 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.240 but were there any housemates that you watched through the 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.520 show and then you became friends with afterwards. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.880 No, I'm terrible at remembering people. I can't remember half 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.800 the staff who worked on the show. And I was 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.000 never Look, it's the two way street. I don't think 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.880 I think you know, I'm the old the old man, 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.520 and I don't think any of the young grubies that 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.840 went on Big Brother particularly were interested in the old 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:09.040 guy in the casting room. 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.720 That's so not true because Imber, like I said, I remember, 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.679 I was working for Scoopla, so I was doing these 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.199 weird interviews, you know, for the next two years, and 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.559 I'd always seek you out and I always appreciate you 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.319 because I always thought you were the truth teller. You know, 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:25.439 you see so many people in the industry that will just, 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.520 you know, pump your tires and tell you rubbish. But 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.439 you always were so honest, and I gravitated towards that. 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:31.959 I loved it. 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.480 I like that you've always been a hard working person 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.800 and you're you're not you know, you're You're real And 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:41.760 I always talk about how nice your mum is, and 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.640 I know where that realness comes from. I was thinking 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:48.240 of a scene that I remembered, and I remember thinking, 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:50.280 I hope I can do justice to it. But there 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.079 was remember Ben and not Ben, a lot of Bradley 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.400 Bradley Yes. And I came in one morning and one 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.600 of the producers, Jarla, came up and she said, oh, 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.120 we've got this great scene. Anyway, I went and looked 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:04.160 at the thing full. 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:06.319 Did you not think I would be up to that 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.160 when you said that at the table was a joke. Yeah, 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:09.880 I know it's a joke. 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.480 But how am I going to How not my job 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:13.880 to be able to teach you this, But how are 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.880 you supposed to work out what the difference between a 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:20.360 joke is with someone and what actually hurting someone's feelings. 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:23.760 The emotion and the tension between the two of you 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:26.360 was something I've never forget. It's one of those pure 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.000 real Big Brother scenes, which is why you love the 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.360 show when they happen. I mean, you know, in latter 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.559 years and in the early years, you get scenes that 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.160 you know are not that real. You know, you know, 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:41.000 people know they're on TV and they're sort of real, 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.720 but occasionally you get a real moment between two people. 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.880 Never forgotten that scene. It was like wonderfully honest. And 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:50.880 I always say that the good thing about Big Brother 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.760 was the best real scenes on Big Brother are better 0:13:54.840 --> 0:14:00.359 than anything in a movie because they're actually true. They're 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.520 not actors making it up. And when two people really 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.120 go at it with real honesty and you were both 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.640 trying to understand each other's position anyway, I just remember 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.120 that and I said to the producer Jallo, I said, 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:14.880 that's one of the best scenes I've ever seen, and 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:16.800 she said, yep, it is. It's amazing. 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.960 You know, you've worked across so many incarnations of shows 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.800 in reality, what process is the best to getting a 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.000 cast right? You know, cattle calls, video submission, you know, 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:27.760 there's so many different ways you can cast these shows, 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:29.320 But which one do you think is the best. To 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.840 getting the cast, right, I. 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.040 Think it's casting calls. You've got to throw out a 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:36.520 big net and you've got to go through the process. 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.960 The thing is, people come into the casting thing, and 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.480 you know, they want to get on television. They're not stupid. 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.160 They think up who they're going to be, and they 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.720 come in and it's almost like a trick to producers 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:54.440 kind of thing. So, you know, and some fail miserably, 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.680 you can see it in my life. But there's been 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:00.320 plenty of housemates who they've shown great promise, you go, 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.120 let's right that they're going to be gold, and they're not. 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.680 They're awful. They just basically they passed the audition, that's 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.520 what they did. They almost cheated and they so they 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.520 come in all full of promise with you know, uncontroversial 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:16.720 or I'm this or I'm that or whatever they've decided 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.680 that they're going to be, and they sell that product 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:20.640 to the producers. Then when they get in the house, 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:22.720 they go, right, oh, there's a quarter of a million 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.040 dollars up for grabs here. I'm not going to be 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.480 that person because that person gets thrown out of the house. 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:29.040 So what I'm going to do is now I'm going 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.960 to go retreat into my shell. Good on them, you know, 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:34.840 if you can, if you can blag your way into 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.440 the Big Brother House, all good on you. You know, 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.840 that's great, and bad on the producers for getting it wrong. 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.520 But it's a fraud process. You can easily then, Look 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.440 when someone's a star. When someone breaks out as a star, 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.800 it's it's like, you know, typical TV producers, you know, 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.560 grab the glory. It's like, yes, I always knew they 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.560 were going to be a star, you know, and it's like, yeah, 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.400 and what about the one that you pushed for that 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.120 was hopeless? You know. Yeah, it's like I knew that 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.520 horse was going to win the race at Flemington, but 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.760 I didn't know beforehand, but I know now, you know 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.080 now that the races won't be run anyway. So yeah, 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:15.880 casting is a it's an expensive and fraught problem. And 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.600 then you also get you know, talk about too many chefs. 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:24.760 There's like everyone that there's network, there's production company, there's 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:28.480 all these people who all think they know who who 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.640 the people are. And so you know, to use another metaphor, 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:34.760 it's you know, it's a horse is a no, A 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.000 camel is a horse designed by a committee. You know, 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.840 so once you get you know, ten people all saying 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.720 I think this, and I think that sometimes it works 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:44.080 well and sometimes it doesn't. 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.320 Is it harder to cast people on reality TV these 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.840 days than it was twenty years ago? Because you know, 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.440 people these days do have an idea of who they 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:53.520 want to be on shows. 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.000 Yeah, sure, I mean I was. I wasn't involved in 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.200 the casting for the first, very first series, but but 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.800 I saw them in the house and they were clean skins. 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.120 They were I mean, they knew what they knew. They've 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.920 watched A Big Brother from England, so they knew about 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.560 the show. But they were clean skins. And by the 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.720 time he got round to you know, twenty fourteen, and 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.439 everyone on there almost had an agent, you know. They 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.959 were all the sort of semi entertainers. They all had 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.800 an eye on the prize. I think Reggie was one 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:26.879 of the few. I mean, that's where that was right 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.000 back in two thousand and three, wasn't it. Reggie. Reggie 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.440 was one of the last sort of innocence, you know, 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.520 the genuine sort of all though Bradley wasn't. Bradley was 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:39.879 pretty naive and untainted. So yeah, I mean, if you 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.720 look at the Block and Maths and all those shows. 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.720 Now they are you know those people are They're not 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:51.320 everyday bods, They're people. It's a pathway, it's a professional pathway. 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:56.399 You can still discover undiscovered talent, but it's most of 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.479 what you've presented is not undiscovered talent. It's people who 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:01.320 want to be discovered. You know. 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.239 The weird thing for me is that people often come 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.080 up to me on the street and or write to 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.520 me on social media about wanting to apply for these shows. 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.960 And I get so annoyed because they'll say, I want 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.360 to be on the show so badly because I want 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.480 to be the next Chrissy Swan. Oh, they want to 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:19.199 be Insta famous, you know, they want to have all 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.919 these following, And it really bothers me. I'm like, because 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:27.120 the reality is there's only like zo point zero zero 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.040 percent of these reality TV contestants actually go on to 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:31.359 become like a Christy Swan. 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:31.639 You know. 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.440