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Speaker 1: Yesterday we spoke extensively about the territory's ambulance system being

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Speaker 1: pushed to breaking point, with calls going unanswered and critical

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Speaker 1: patients left waiting hours for help. Saint John Ambulance CEO

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Speaker 1: Abigail Truan joined me on the show yesterday and confirmed

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Speaker 1: the system had reached a critical failure amid weeks of

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Speaker 1: mounting pressure and ongoing concerns about violence against paramedics. She

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Speaker 1: said that the organization's been seriously underfunded for years now.

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Speaker 1: The Opposition reckons this is a failure of planning and

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Speaker 1: leadership and is demanding urgent action from the Northern Territory government.

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Speaker 1: Joining us on the line is the Minister for Health,

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Speaker 1: Steve Edgington. Good morning to your minister.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Codine, Good morning to the listeners.

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Speaker 1: Now, Minister, in the early hours of Saturday morning, we

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Speaker 1: know that Saint John escalated to operational capacity. White all

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Speaker 1: ambulances in Darwin and Palmerston exceeded one hundred percent capacity

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Speaker 1: for five hours. What was your reaction when you learned

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Speaker 1: that this was the situation?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I received a call from the CEO of

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Speaker 2: Health early Saturday morning to alert me to the situation.

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Speaker 2: And it was certainly very concerning to me to hear

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Speaker 2: not only the pressure Saint John's being under, but the

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Speaker 2: inability to attend to emergency calls where people expecting an

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Speaker 2: ambulance to turn up but simply couldn't because of the

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Speaker 2: pressure that the service was under. But alarmingly, what I

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Speaker 2: heard about Alice Springs with our frontline paramedics being assaulted

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Speaker 2: on the job was extremely I was disgusted to hear that.

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Speaker 2: And these are the things that really frustrate me. When

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Speaker 2: we've got frontline workers out there doing the job and

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Speaker 2: they're being assaulted while they're doing it. It's just not

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Speaker 2: on And these are the things that have to stop.

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Speaker 2: And we're here to support Saint John and we're working

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Speaker 2: with them to get through this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there were multiple Priority one cases that were outstanding,

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Speaker 1: fourteen in fact, with the longest pending over five hours. Now,

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Speaker 1: as we know, a P one is a life threatening

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Speaker 1: event requiring a response within eight to fifteen minutes in

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Speaker 1: an urban setting. Minister, is this a crisis situation?

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Speaker 2: Well, it certainly was on Friday night, Katie. There's no

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Speaker 2: doubt about that. The statistics speak for themselves, and what

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Speaker 2: we've seen is increasing demand for emergency services over the

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Speaker 2: last five years, and some of the increases have been substantial.

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Speaker 2: It's gone from nineteen and a half thousand urgent responses

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Speaker 2: in twenty one to twenty two and here we are

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Speaker 2: when you look at the twenty four to twenty five

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Speaker 2: financial year, it's up to around twenty three thousand, two hundred,

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Speaker 2: just under twenty three thousand, two hundred. So what we

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Speaker 2: have seen over a period of time is a significant

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Speaker 2: increase in demand for ambulance services in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: So look at that at the moment. So we are

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Speaker 2: working directly with Saint John. We're working through new contract

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Speaker 2: arrangements and those negotiations are ongoing as we speak. So

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Speaker 2: what we want to get up?

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Speaker 1: Why is it taking so long? Because I mean, if

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Speaker 1: we've got if we have got a serious increase in

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Speaker 1: the number of people needing the assistance of Saint John,

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Speaker 1: I just don't understand why there's a dragging of the

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Speaker 1: heels when it comes to funding.

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Speaker 2: It's not the funding issue, okadie. That what we've seen

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Speaker 2: since two thousand and six, But it is.

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Speaker 1: A funding issue if they've had a huge increase in

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Speaker 1: demand for their services and there aren't enough paramedics and

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Speaker 1: we need more vehicles on the road. It is a

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Speaker 1: funding issue.

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Speaker 2: Right well, it's a current funding issue at the moment.

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Speaker 2: So what we saw on Friday night was a substantial

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Speaker 2: increase in demand for ambulance services. What we have done

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Speaker 2: to assist Saint john immediately is to provide that additional

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Speaker 2: funding so that additional staff can be put on duty

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Speaker 2: to assist with the current demand. What we're doing in

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Speaker 2: regard to contracts, you know, we're just going to go

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Speaker 2: back to February twenty sixteen. There's been an on going

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Speaker 2: series of contracts with Saint john for a number of

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Speaker 2: years and it's fine for labor to come out and

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Speaker 2: criticize the current process. But what we've been faced with

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Speaker 2: coming into government, Codie, is just that this is just

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Speaker 2: one of many, many issues. So what we are doing

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Speaker 2: is working with Saint John's at the moment to separate

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Speaker 2: out the contract so that we can deal directly with

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Speaker 2: Saint John's around emergency calls. This is the negotiation that's

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Speaker 2: going on at the moment. We are working directly to

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Speaker 2: work out exactly what's needed right across the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: To assist in dealing with that demand. So those negotiations

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Speaker 2: are happening as we speak, and I don't want to

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Speaker 2: interfere in the procurement process, but what I will say

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Speaker 2: is that we have directly committed to Saint John that

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Speaker 2: we will support them during this very high cases of

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Speaker 2: demand as we see them at the moment. So there's

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Speaker 2: no issue around funding at the moment. We are supporting

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Speaker 2: Saint John. We want to make sure that the territorians get

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Speaker 2: the service.

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Speaker 1: Have you provided some additional funding in the meantime while

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Speaker 1: while this negotiation gets underway or what do you mean

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Speaker 1: by saying that you are supporting And.

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Speaker 2: We've said to Saint John is where they need additional resources,

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Speaker 2: we will cover that additional funding needed to provide those

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Speaker 2: additional resources on the road so that territories can get

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Speaker 2: the response it's needed, whether that's an emergency response to

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Speaker 2: get them to hospital. We want to make sure that

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Speaker 2: Saint John have the resources to be able to do that.

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Speaker 1: So does that mean additional funding in the interim or okay, how.

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Speaker 2: Much or to cover any additional resources. So that's the

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Speaker 2: work that's going on with Saint John at the moment.

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Speaker 2: They're the ones that to make the operational decisions about

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Speaker 2: how many resources and needed on each shift. What we've

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Speaker 2: said is if they need additional resources on shifts around

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Speaker 2: their planning from an operational sense, we will support that

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Speaker 2: with additional funding to cover those.

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Speaker 1: Obviously that would be a good thing, but I think

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Speaker 1: we all understand that when we're talking longer term, and

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about planning for an increase in workforce,

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about planning for, you know, an increase

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Speaker 1: in vehicles on the road to try and meet the

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Speaker 1: demand that has been increasing for years. And I certainly

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Speaker 1: take on board the point that you've made there that

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Speaker 1: they've been seriously underfunded for years. Abigail true And joined

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Speaker 1: us on the show yesterday the CEO and said just that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think that here we need to

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Speaker 1: be really careful. I don't want this to become a

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Speaker 1: political shit show, because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: territorians need to be picked up when they are in

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Speaker 1: their hour of need. So for right now, that interim funding, yes,

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Speaker 1: it's a good thing, but what long term commitment is

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Speaker 1: going to be made to Saint John's so that they

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Speaker 1: can plan for the future, for not just this year,

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Speaker 1: but ongoing like you do with CareFlight.

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Speaker 2: This is the work going on at the moment to Katie,

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Speaker 2: we have two procurement processes underway at the moment to

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Speaker 2: One of those is for patient retrieval services in the

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Speaker 2: top end, and we have a procurement process underway for that.

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Speaker 2: The arrangements with care Flight at the moment is to

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Speaker 2: pick up patients in remote areas and bring them to

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Speaker 2: the hospital in Darwin or to other I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, like, how could Saint John though then purchase additional

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Speaker 1: assets etc. At this point in time when they don't

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Speaker 1: have that funding commitment And how long is it going

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Speaker 1: to take to sort of negotiate and work through this

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Speaker 1: so that, you know, so that we can get to

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Speaker 1: the point where they're able to purchase what they need Katie.

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Speaker 2: At the moment, as I said, we're having those exact

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Speaker 2: conversations with Saint John as we speak. We're working through

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Speaker 2: a budget process and we'll have our budget out in May.

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Speaker 2: But under the current procurement process, what we do want

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Speaker 2: to do is reach a five year contract with Saint

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Speaker 2: John based on the need of territories. That's the work

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Speaker 2: that we're doing at the moment to determine how many

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Speaker 2: additional ambulances are needed, working with Saint John to determine

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Speaker 2: how many additional staff are needed to actually, you know,

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Speaker 2: we can't have ambulances without staff. We're working through all

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Speaker 2: of those processes. Is under the current procurement arrangements at

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Speaker 2: the moment.

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Speaker 1: From your perspective, you would like to see a five

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Speaker 1: year contract in place.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, And that's what we're working towards, Katie, is a

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Speaker 2: long term five year contract in place, potentially five plus

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Speaker 2: five with options to extend. So that's the work that's

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Speaker 2: going on at the moment. What we do need to

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Speaker 2: do is get the evidence together so that we can

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Speaker 2: work with Saint John to look at what funding is

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Speaker 2: needed to bring those additional ambulances on the road and

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Speaker 2: what staff are needed over the next one, two and

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Speaker 2: five years to provide the services that territories need.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you'd have to agree though, the way that

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Speaker 1: things are going at the moment are not working. I mean,

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Speaker 1: are we in it? Are we going to keep it

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Speaker 1: in a situation where the Department of Health, like where

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Speaker 1: that funding contract comes through the Department of Health, or

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Speaker 1: could it be a situation where they've got a separate

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Speaker 1: contract and they deal with you directly.

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Speaker 2: Saint John's. Of I think what you're saying is we

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Speaker 2: deal with Saint John's direct that's a contract within the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory Health Department. So that contract, do you reckon?

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Speaker 1: It should just go direct to you. I mean, like,

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Speaker 1: do you reckon? You should just be negotiating direct with

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Speaker 1: sent On to try and work out exactly what they need,

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Speaker 1: rather than it going through that bureaucratic process.

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Speaker 2: Looks the That's the way procurement processes have always worked, Katie,

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Speaker 2: and that's the process that we'll be using for the

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Speaker 2: top end era medical retrieval services as well. So all

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Speaker 2: of these procurement contracts are managed through the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: Health Department. They're the negotiations that are happening as we

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Speaker 2: speak between Health and Saint John's. And I'm sure that

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Speaker 2: we're going to reach an agreement to prior to our

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Speaker 2: budget being finalized.

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Speaker 1: I hope. So, I mean in the meantime, like I

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Speaker 1: just think what happened over the weekend. G feel for

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Speaker 1: any patient who called Saint john for help and they

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Speaker 1: were forced to wait hours. I feel for everybody that

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Speaker 1: works for Saint John. I cannot begin to imagine what

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Speaker 1: you'd feel like as the call taker taking a call

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Speaker 1: knowing that somebody needs urgent, life saving treatment and knowing

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Speaker 1: that you do not have enough cruise on the road

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Speaker 1: to be able to get out to them as quickly

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Speaker 1: as needed. Like, it's pretty heartbreaking stuff, Minister, and I

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Speaker 1: just think that Territorians deserve better.

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Speaker 2: I certainly agree, Katie, and that this is I feel

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Speaker 2: exactly the same way you do. And when I heard

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Speaker 2: about this Saturday morning. On Saturday morning, the first thing

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Speaker 2: was exactly what you said. How do these people feel

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Speaker 2: when they're waiting for an ambulance to turn up at

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Speaker 2: the most critical time in a person's life, the whole

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Speaker 2: family waiting for an ambulance to turn up whilst there's

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Speaker 2: a serious medical emergency happening. We want to make sure

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Speaker 2: that we are working with Saint john. We have provided

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Speaker 2: the additional funding as we speak to ensure that there's

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Speaker 2: sufficient paramedics on the road. But what we need to

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Speaker 2: do is finalize a longer term term contract so that

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Speaker 2: Saint John's are in a position to deliver the services

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Speaker 2: that territories expect.

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Speaker 1: And Minister, you are confident that you're going to be

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Speaker 1: able to do that before the budget is handed down

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Speaker 1: and you're confident you're going to be able to give

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Speaker 1: Saint John, you know, a contract that looks more like

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Speaker 1: a five year one rather than a one year.

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Speaker 2: Well, well, the contract that the current arrangements expire at

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Speaker 2: the end of the year, but there's work to do

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Speaker 2: before the actual contract expires. What we want to do

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Speaker 2: is get in a position where we can have a

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Speaker 2: long term contract. In the meantime, what we need to do,

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Speaker 2: as we said before, is we need to ensure that

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Speaker 2: there's sufficient funding for Saint John's to be able to

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Speaker 2: deliver the service as we speak. When it comes to

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Speaker 2: a long term contract, yes, we want to finalize the

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Speaker 2: long term track, but in the meantime we have a

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Speaker 2: budget process coming up in May. What we need to

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Speaker 2: do is work with Saint John prior to the budget

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Speaker 2: announcements so that we're in a position to understand exactly

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Speaker 2: from an evidence base what the issues are with Saint

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Speaker 2: john when it comes to resourcing and staffing arrangements, so

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Speaker 2: that we can work together and ensure that there's adequate

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Speaker 2: funding to deal with those emergency calls that they're receiving it.

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Speaker 2: And this is important, Katie, because when it comes to

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Speaker 2: emergency calls. I've said this before, I've said it during

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Speaker 2: Code Yellows as well. What we need to do is

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Speaker 2: make sure our ambulance services are not being tied up

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Speaker 2: with other services. We need to ensure that they're available

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Speaker 2: to deal with emergencies.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely part of that, but I do think being able

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Speaker 1: to actually allocate funding towards that long term assets, you know,

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Speaker 1: making sure they've got the assets that they need and

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Speaker 1: the workforce that they need, because even yesterday, you know,

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Speaker 1: talking about there being a thirty percent increase in demand

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Speaker 1: for their services over a number of years. And like

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Speaker 1: I said earlier, I don't want this to be a

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Speaker 1: blame game to the Coorp government or to whichever government,

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Speaker 1: because I think the only way to move forward for

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Speaker 1: Territorians is to ensure that they're adequately funded long term

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Speaker 1: so that they can provide that service.

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Speaker 2: That's what we're working to achieve, Katie, and I want

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Speaker 2: to reassure the listeners that we are working with Saint John.

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Speaker 2: We are looking at all of the statistics, what the

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Speaker 2: demand has been over the last five years, what the

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Speaker 2: current staffing arrangements are how many additional ambulances are needed

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Speaker 2: to ensure that territorians right across the board are able

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Speaker 2: to receive that service when there's an emergency at home.

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Speaker 2: This issue is right across the Northern territory. It's still Springs,

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Speaker 2: it's Darwin. But what we need to do is ensure

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Speaker 2: that we get collect that evidence and we work through

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Speaker 2: the precurrent process in a methodical way to ensure that

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Speaker 2: we get this right.

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Speaker 1: Well. Health Minister Steve Edgington, appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for speaking with us.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Katie, and good morning to listen.

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Speaker 1: Thank you