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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now, you can

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Speaker 1: tell how important somebody is by the length of their bio.

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Speaker 1: The bio of the person I'm about to speak to

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Speaker 1: is clear, concise and short. Julie Inman Grant is Australia's

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Speaker 1: e Safety Commissioner, full stop, end of story. That's all

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Speaker 1: we need to know. And the reason that I'm sharing

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Speaker 1: that with you is because of all the people in

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Speaker 1: this country who have their finger on what's going on

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Speaker 1: with tech and our kids. It is Julie Inman Grant.

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Speaker 1: We've known each other for years. We've had wonderful conversations

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Speaker 1: on the podcast previously and after yesterday's discussion, talking with

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Speaker 1: a young man who was caught up in a honeytrap online,

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Speaker 1: who was approached by somebody he thought was a gorgeous

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Speaker 1: girl who sent him a bunch of images that made

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Speaker 1: him feel quite excited, and then coerced him into sending

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Speaker 1: an image of himself to her. Of course, that young

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Speaker 1: girl then revealed herself to not be a young girl

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Speaker 1: at all, but somebody with impure motives, some unhelpful intent,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, we've got a scenario where

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Speaker 1: there's a young man who has been completely caught online

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Speaker 1: in a sextortion situation. Well, Julian mcgrant knows all about

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Speaker 1: that and a whole lot more. She joins me today

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Speaker 1: on the Happy Families podcast to talk about what is

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Speaker 1: going on with our technology companies and how kids are

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Speaker 1: getting caught up in this. Julie, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for being here, really grateful to have you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for not reading my flall bio.

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Speaker 2: That would have made me feel old.

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Speaker 1: You know what, I just love what you've done. But

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Speaker 1: for today's purposes, all that matters is that you know

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Speaker 1: what you're talking about in this particular area, perhaps more

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Speaker 1: than anyone else in the country. Julie, can you provide

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Speaker 1: an overview of the prevalence and the scope of online

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Speaker 1: sextortion targeting teenagers in Australia and how this has been

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Speaker 1: evolving over the last few years.

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Speaker 2: Well, Unfortunately, sexual extortion is not a new online harm.

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Speaker 2: In fact, we started putting advisory outs around sextortion or

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Speaker 2: sexual extortion back in twenty eighteen. But it's certainly something

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Speaker 2: that regulators, law enforcement and governments globally are struggling to

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Speaker 2: address and it seems to be gathering pace. And the

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Speaker 2: primary reason is this is being backed by organized criminals

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Speaker 2: in the Philippines, in India, in Africa. Remember when we

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Speaker 2: used to get all of those social engineering scams about

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Speaker 2: they kidnapped princess or winning the lottery that you haven't won.

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Speaker 2: They have figured out that this is an incredibly lucrative

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Speaker 2: scheme that works relatively quickly. They've got a well worn

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Speaker 2: playbook that I'll walk you through, but they're able to

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Speaker 2: blackmail and extored young people who are cornered and very

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Speaker 2: distressed in very aggressive ways. We've had some people come

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Speaker 2: to us after paying thousands of dollars, so we'll talk

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Speaker 2: through what this looks like. In the past financial year,

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Speaker 2: we've had more than six thousand reports of sexual extortion

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Speaker 2: to our image based ABUT scheme, and most of these

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Speaker 2: reports are from young men between the ages of eighteen

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Speaker 2: and twenty four. And that's significant because we tend to

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Speaker 2: think about the eighteen to twenty four age range as

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Speaker 2: they're adults now, but these are still young men without

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Speaker 2: fully developed frontal core texes. They maybe going in transition,

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Speaker 2: say leaving high school, either going into uni or into

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Speaker 2: trades or whatever they're doing, but they don't have that

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Speaker 2: same kind of pastoral support. And often young men of

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Speaker 2: this age will go to their local police and they

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Speaker 2: can't get help because they are adults. Obviously, police will

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Speaker 2: react more quickly when they're under eighteen, and it's considered

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Speaker 2: a form of child sexual exploitation. So it's a really

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Speaker 2: vulnerable age. And this is where I think parents and

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Speaker 2: cares and even brothers and sisters and other forms of

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Speaker 2: peers we need to be there to to be backing

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Speaker 2: our young men in and supporting them.

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Speaker 1: Two things about yesterday's conversation. That time, with what you've

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Speaker 1: just said, we were talking about somebody who was under eighteen,

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Speaker 1: a young man. He was fifteen when his incident occurred. Wonderfully,

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Speaker 1: he was confident enough to go to his mum and

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Speaker 1: say I'm in trouble, which I think is just the

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Speaker 1: ultimate outcome, right, if something bad is going to happen

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Speaker 1: like this, the fact that mum has a relationship with

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Speaker 1: her son where he's willing to go and have that

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Speaker 1: conversation matters so much. And I want to tread really

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Speaker 1: carefully here. My sense is that when it comes to

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Speaker 1: reporting to police. This is a bit of a lottery.

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Speaker 1: They went to the police and the police almost thought

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Speaker 1: that it was funny that this kid got duped by

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Speaker 1: some gorgeous girl online that actually wasn't who she said

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Speaker 1: that she was. They didn't get anywhere at all with

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Speaker 1: the police. They had a terrible experience there. Now, obviously

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Speaker 1: this is one of those things where sometimes it works

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Speaker 1: out and sometimes it doesn't. But the Safety Commissioner exists

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Speaker 1: precisely because people need help in this area, right And

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Speaker 1: when you say six thousand in a year, I'm terrible

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Speaker 1: at meths, but my guess is that's more than one

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Speaker 1: hundred a week at getting sprung, getting caught getting duped

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Speaker 1: in this way.

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Speaker 2: Well, and listen, we have a really a minimal role here.

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Speaker 2: This is largely a law enforcement issue because we're talking

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Speaker 2: about organized crime. You know. Our primary role, you know,

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Speaker 2: in terms of our regulatory schemes is to be able

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Speaker 2: to take down intimate imagery after it's been posted. But

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Speaker 2: we can also tackle threats to post imagery. But often

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Speaker 2: there isn't an Australian connection, or it's happening overseas, and

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Speaker 2: this is why there's very little police can ultimately do. So, really,

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Speaker 2: what we've been doing is providing almost a form of

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Speaker 2: guidance and support. And we've got a contractual relationship with

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Speaker 2: Kids Helpline and some of the other you know, mental

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Speaker 2: health support services which often often people need. But this

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Speaker 2: is where you know, an ounce of prevention is worth

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Speaker 2: a pound of cure. And so I do want to

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Speaker 2: go back to the important conversations. And people used to

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Speaker 2: laugh at me when I would say things like, you know,

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Speaker 2: model good behavior for your kids when you're taking their picture,

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Speaker 2: ask for consent, ask if it's okay, if they put it,

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Speaker 2: if you put this on Facebook. Because if you ask

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Speaker 2: those questions, then maybe they will have the same courtesy

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Speaker 2: for others. But the other important thing is certainly COVID

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Speaker 2: has reinforced this technology is inexplicably tied to every aspect

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Speaker 2: of their lives. And when we're at the dinner table

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Speaker 2: and we're asking them about how is their day at school,

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Speaker 2: how is their sport, what's happening with their friends, we

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Speaker 2: have to start asking them about what's happening online to

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Speaker 2: them too, because this is how they're communicating, they're engaging,

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Speaker 2: and they're playing games they may not have access to

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Speaker 2: their phones at school, but they're certainly using them as

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Speaker 2: a primary communications mechanism.

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Speaker 1: Julian mcgrant joins me today on the Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 1: to talk about the prevalence and the scope of online

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Speaker 1: sextortion targeting teenagers in Australia and how this has been

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Speaker 1: evolving over the last few years.

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Speaker 2: We can go through the key messages that we want

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Speaker 2: to get across to parents and carers and young people themselves,

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Speaker 2: but I'm happy to talk through first how this tends

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Speaker 2: to play out online. That well warrant offender playbook, if

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Speaker 2: you will, let's go there.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that there's a playbook that organize I mean

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Speaker 1: organized crime literally call centers that are set up internationally

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Speaker 1: with people showing up to work so that they can

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Speaker 1: exploit our kids. This is so heinous. The mendacity of

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Speaker 1: this is just extraordinary. What are the common tactics, what's

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Speaker 1: in the playbook? What are the perpetrators doing so they

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Speaker 1: can exploit our teenagers and coerce them to sharing these

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Speaker 1: explicit images and videos? And do the tactics change depending

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Speaker 1: on whether they're targeting a girl or a boy.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think what they figured out, it's it's almost

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Speaker 2: ninety percent of what we're seeing our targeting young men.

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Speaker 2: And I think what they figured out is if and

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Speaker 2: they're they're very good at profiling, they're targets. You know.

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Speaker 2: John Rowse, who was formerly with Task Force Argos, you know,

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Speaker 2: ran a test a couple of years ago the followers

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Speaker 2: of Paige Spiriwak, who's the beautiful blonde American golfer. If

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Speaker 2: you're following her, there's a good chance you like a sporty, perky,

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Speaker 2: attractive blonde girl. So just create up a set of

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Speaker 2: faked imposter accounts with a cute blonde and target the

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Speaker 2: same people, and you know you've got them hook pretty

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Speaker 2: pretty quickly. So it often starts with of course, uh,

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Speaker 2: flattery and and ask using faked impostor accounts, often of

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Speaker 2: an attractive woman. Sometimes these are actually images of pornography stars.

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Speaker 2: And the reason I mentioned that is that one of

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Speaker 2: the ways once they ensnare someone and ask for a

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Speaker 2: sexy chat and the chat continues, one of the ways

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Speaker 2: that they will groom them and try and wear them

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Speaker 2: down to encourage them to sorry but masturbate for the

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Speaker 2: webcam or for a FaceTime or Skype call, is that

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Speaker 2: they will send a pornographic video to kind of say,

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Speaker 2: well here is me. Well it's actually an adult actress.

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Speaker 2: I've seen a timeline where a young person connects with

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Speaker 2: a fake account at eight o'clock. By nine, he's already

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Speaker 2: performed sexual acts for the camera. By ten, not only

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Speaker 2: is he being aggressively targeted and threatened with blackmail and

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Speaker 2: using his followers list to send the intimate imagery to

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Speaker 2: his parents and all his friends and family, but by

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Speaker 2: the time it reaches midnight, he's taken his own life.

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Speaker 2: So this is over a four hour period from being

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Speaker 2: contacted by a fake account to taking your own life.

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Speaker 2: This shows how terribly this can go wrong. So once

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Speaker 2: they the perp has hooked the victim you know, someone

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Speaker 2: who's open to chatting with them, then they, you know,

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Speaker 2: keep the pressure up to share explicit sexual videos or photos.

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Speaker 2: This is another reason we encourage parents, even when you're

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Speaker 2: talking about teenagers, to have kids using technology and open

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Speaker 2: areas of the home. We come across a lot of

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Speaker 2: videos of self produced coerce child sexual abuse material. It's

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Speaker 2: almost always in the sanctity of the home, in bathrooms

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Speaker 2: and bedrooms. So that's just another thing to keep in mind.

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Speaker 2: Most of the platforms that are being targeted are Snapchat

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Speaker 2: and Instagram, and often they'll move them off platform, either

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Speaker 2: to a Skype or WhatsApp, video or FaceTime, and they'll

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Speaker 2: use a combination of charm and flirtatiousness and sexually explicit

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Speaker 2: language to manipulate that once they get the imagery, that

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Speaker 2: chat immediately turns menacing and threats to share the victim's

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Speaker 2: photos with family or friends that the victim doesn't pay.

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Speaker 2: As I mentioned, they can also often look at say

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Speaker 2: Instagram has you can see out in the open the followers,

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Speaker 2: so they can be very forendsic And say, I know

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Speaker 2: your father is this person, and this person looks like

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Speaker 2: your girlfriend, and we will be sending this. So it's

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Speaker 2: just really using all of these tactics to corner the

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Speaker 2: person to make them feel desperate. I mean, we've seen

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Speaker 2: some scripts where they would ask start by asking for

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Speaker 2: fifteen thousand dollars and the young person will say, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm only fifteen, I don't have that much money, and

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Speaker 2: they'll negotiate with them, well, how much can you pay?

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Speaker 2: How much do you have to in our bank account

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Speaker 2: right now? And they'll start there and once someone pays.

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Speaker 2: They know that they'll feel desperate enough they'll go they'll

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Speaker 2: go back and keep paying. So I would just say,

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Speaker 2: if you come across this and the person is underage,

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Speaker 2: you should report directly to the Australian Center to Counter

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Speaker 2: Child Sexual Exploitation. If your imagery has been posted online

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Speaker 2: and they will follow through, that's when they can come

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Speaker 2: to the e Safety Commissioner under our image based Abuse

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Speaker 2: Scheme at eesafety dot gov dot au. But this is

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Speaker 2: a good chance to say these are the golden rules.

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Speaker 2: First and foremost, don't ever pay, and if your parent

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Speaker 2: and your child has paid something already, don't pay more.

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Speaker 2: Steeth all contact with the blackmailer. Take the evidence that

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Speaker 2: you can, but block them. As I said, if they're

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Speaker 2: under eighteen, go to the Australian Center for Child Sexual

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Speaker 2: Exploitation because it is active child sexual abuse. If they're

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Speaker 2: over eighteen, screenshot the evidence, including the blackmailer's social media

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Speaker 2: usernames and bank account details any URLs. Then report in

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Speaker 2: app and block so report to the platform.

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Speaker 1: I know this is kind of an in the weeds conversation.

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Speaker 1: I know that it's sort of a little bit even political,

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Speaker 1: but it's such an important conversation. I have one last question,

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Speaker 1: a little bit left field, slightly off where we've been,

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Speaker 1: but still very much in your zone. Last year, Dulye,

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Speaker 1: as the e Safety Commissioner, you made a recommendation of

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Speaker 1: the Albaneze federal government to trial an age gated system

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Speaker 1: to stop our kids accessing pornographic content online. The Abaneze

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Speaker 1: government shut that recommendation down. They refuse to go ahead

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Speaker 1: with that. What's your reaction to that decision?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean we did two years of deep consultation

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Speaker 2: and understanding the technologies, the environment. This is often what happens.

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Speaker 2: We put six recommendations to government. They didn't outright a

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Speaker 2: jacked but really what the ministers said was I want

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Speaker 2: you to focus on phase two of the industry Codes,

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Speaker 2: which we have already started to do and in fact

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Speaker 2: tomorrow on the twenty second of February, we have a

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Speaker 2: big set of conversation that process. But the codes process

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Speaker 2: around illegal content took more than two years, so this

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Speaker 2: is this is going to be. There are a lot

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Speaker 2: of lessons learned that we're going to try try and avoid,

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Speaker 2: but this is something that I think we need to

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Speaker 2: move forward on. The Minister has now tasked the department

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Speaker 2: to look at scoping a trial, and I can see

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Speaker 2: these two things very much working in parallel as we

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Speaker 2: we seek to get commitments from industry up and down

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Speaker 2: the stack. So what is the role of app stores,

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Speaker 2: What is the role of device manufacturers, what is the

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Speaker 2: role of social media sites? Every single sector of the

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Speaker 2: industry will serve as a safety choke point and be

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Speaker 2: able to do something to keep child safe from pornography

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Speaker 2: in a way that's privacy protected, doesn't undermine, you know,

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Speaker 2: the right of adults to access adult content. So you know,

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Speaker 2: we still have some work to do and things are

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Speaker 2: moving a piece, but so goes government.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the understatement of the year. We still

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Speaker 1: have some work to do. It's such a such a

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Speaker 1: challenging area. So grateful for the work that you do, Dulye,

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Speaker 1: and the way that you so unselfishly and so persistently

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Speaker 1: take it to people who do not want to have

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Speaker 1: it taken to them and fight for the protection of

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Speaker 1: our children. If I was to summarize the practical side

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Speaker 1: of what you've just said for parents who are listening

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Speaker 1: to this ands saying I don't have know what to

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Speaker 1: do anymore. This is terrifying. What I've heard you say

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Speaker 1: is Number one, make sure that kids are using their

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Speaker 1: screens out in the open, don't have them in bedrooms

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Speaker 1: and bathrooms. Number two, make sure that kids know that

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Speaker 1: they can talk to you about anything that's happening online,

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Speaker 1: and ask them about their online lives and that of

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Speaker 1: their friends. Number Three, If the children are approached inappropriately

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Speaker 1: and for some reason, they don't just say no, un

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Speaker 1: blocked the person. If they do get caught up in something,

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Speaker 1: don't pay, get screenshots, collect evidence, block report, go to

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Speaker 1: the authorities, the police, ACE and you at the E

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Speaker 1: Safety Commissioner if there's any image based abuse that's occurred.

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Speaker 1: I think that's about all. What have I missed?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I think the homework for parents today

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Speaker 2: is go to E safety dot got au. We've got parents' guides.

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Speaker 2: We've got an E safety guide that walks you through

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Speaker 2: all of the games, apps and social media sapes your

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Speaker 2: kids might be using. But we've got a page on

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Speaker 2: sexual extortion that lays these out in detail. It also

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Speaker 2: gives you scripts about how you can talk to your

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Speaker 2: children about these issues and let them know they can

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Speaker 2: come to you if anything goes wrong. That they're not

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Speaker 2: going to be in trouble. I think this is what

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Speaker 2: we see with more stigmataition issues, is that kids are

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Speaker 2: afraid of getting in trouble or for what they've done,

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Speaker 2: or device denial, and I think we have to let

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Speaker 2: them know that our preeminent concern as parents is their

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Speaker 2: overall safety and well being, no matter what is transpired online.

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Speaker 1: Julie Inmand Grant is Australia's E Safety Commissioner. Julie, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for your time today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: We will link to the E Safety Commissioner websites in

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Speaker 1: our show notes. Of course you can just google and

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Speaker 1: find everything that you need. Those resources are valuable. Please

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Speaker 1: look at them. As parents, we've got to be across

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Speaker 1: this stuff. It matters so much for our children's well being.

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Speaker 1: Really appreciate you listening to this very very important conversation

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Speaker 1: today with Julie Inman Grant, the Australian E Safety Commissioner.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rouland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For more

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Speaker 1: information about keeping your kids safe, check out the e

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Speaker 1: Safety website, also the Australian Center the Counter child Exploitation

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Speaker 1: or ACE dot gov dot U, and, of course, for

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Speaker 1: more about making your family happier, Happy Families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au

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Speaker 2: Mm HM