WEBVTT - Child Protection in The Northern Territory 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:05.520 Welcome to Law the Podcast. I'm Lex Lasry from a 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:09.160 Victorian and Northern Territory Supreme Court judge and recently retired 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:10.800 from the Northern Territory Supreme Court. 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:13.320 I'm Greg Barnes. I'm a barrister, I'm a senior council 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.759 and I've got a long standing interest in law reform issues. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.200 So Greg, this is the first episode of Law the Podcast. 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:22.599 I suppose we ought to have a quick chat about 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:24.480 what we expect to get out of this and what 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:28.160 the podcast is about. It's not a podcast for lawyers. 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.760 It's a podcast for everyone interested in legal issues, and 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:36.240 we'll talk about legal issues, both Australian and international legal 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.960 issues and broad legal issues including political legal issues. So 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:41.240 it should be an interesting journey. 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:43.400 Yeah, and you know, I think that the point is, 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:45.839 and I often say this to people in discussions, the 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.080 law is our lives. We live the law every day, 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.720 and the decision that courts make, the decisions that governments 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.400 make when they pass laws, and the way the law 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.880 interacts with people, you know, is really important. And we 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.240 often said in a sort of one dimensional way we 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.360 think of law. If you ask people what's the law, 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.399 they'll often just say you know, a judge and a 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:10.760 jury something of that nature. And of course the law 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.840 is really complex and it does need, I think a 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:19.280 podcast like this to get people interested to understand because 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.199 it can be, as we know, Lex, a very dry topic. 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:26.200 Yes, well, in this first episode, we're certainly going to 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.440 be talking about the way the law affects people because 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.480 we're going to be concentrating on very recent developments in 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:36.560 the Northern Territory with Abbi Raj Kumar, who's the vice 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.440 president of the Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territory. 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:43.640 We'll be going into some detail with her about issues 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:47.040 in the Northern Territory, which, in my opinion, Greg, everybody 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.000 in the country ought to be interested in. You're up 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:50.320 there at the moment I am. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.400 I know that you've been up here previously and your 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:58.040 reputation is intact. Lex, I've fixed it for you. 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.120 Yes, thanks the diminish it I had. 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.200 I've done nothing to diminish your great reputation. But I 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:05.760 am up here for a couple of weeks. I've been 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.960 working with NAJA, the Aboriginal Legal Service, a lot of 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:13.720 young lawyers there. It's a fantastic enriching experience, but also 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.359 we'll talk about it more. The territory is a hard gig, yes, 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:19.080 it is. The things that are happening up here are 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.880 extraordinary and it should be Australia wide news. That reminds 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.080 me a bit of the Deep South in the United 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.519 States and the stories you hear there about the systematic 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.240 racism and the way in which the place operates is 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.839 really in many ways and apartheid state in terms of 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.440 how the justice system and society operates. 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.519 All right, So we'll get into it. To those people 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.240 who are listening for the first time, don't forget to 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.760 like and subscribe. That helps us. It helps our podcast 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.160 get noticed by people, and that's important to get the 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.480 word out and to get the issues talked about. So 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:59.880 we'll get underway. 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:04.400 The Northern Territory government has decided on legislation after that 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:09.880 tragic death that young girl in al Springs earlier this year. 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:12.400 A man has been charged with the murder of a 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.320 five year old girl in Alice Springs, along with two 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:19.720 other offenses. The girl, now known as Kumenjai Little Baby, 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:23.360 disappeared from the Old Timers Aboriginal town camp, triggering a 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:24.400 massive search. 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.359 They've decided to put through the Parliament, and of course 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.280 there's no upper house here, so it just goes straight through, 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:37.280 which really weakens the protections for Aboriginal kids and without 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.400 any exaggeration, you'd have to say, is creating a stolen 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.360 generation for the future. There have been a number of protests. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.680 I know that some of my colleagues at NAJA have 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.840 been in those protests this week, but unfortunately the bill 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:51.920 is now law. 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.080 Well, we're very lucky in this episode to have Abbi 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.880 raj Kuma with us Am. I right that one of 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.840 the main things that the legislation does is repeal something 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.720 called the child placement principle that was I think a 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.360 result of the Bringing Them Home Report. How did that 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:10.440 principle work and why is it so significant? 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:11.119 That is right? 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.280 So it's the Aboriginal in Terres Strait Island a child 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:17.400 placement principle, which is a principle that was nationally graded 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:21.680 by every single jurisdiction and this legislation is a clear 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:26.440 divergence from that principle, which is why every single state 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.880 and territory apart from Queensland and the Northern Territory, their 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:35.160 child Protection ministers have written a statement affirming the importance 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:37.680 of the principle and making it very clear that that 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:42.520 principle needs to be central to child protection decision making, 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.919 and also makes it clear that it's entirely consistent with 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.880 child safety. So this idea that you know, moving away 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.960 from this principle is about making children or the lives 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.000 of children safer or making sure that we're keeping children safe, 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:01.120 is completely not true. It's a principle that is fundamentally 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.760 was put in place to ensure that Abergeal and Torres 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.800 right Islander children have connections to culture and family and 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.159 king in a way that is safe. That is, if 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:14.960 children aren't allowed to remain in their family home for 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:20.680 whatever reason, that there is still an acute and proper 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:25.159 avenue and mechanism for them to continue those important connections 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:29.800 to culture, family and king. And really that's just gone now, 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.000 so it's not even about watering it down, it's just gone. 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.919 NIJA put out a very very good and comprehensive release 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:39.840 on this on the tenth of July, which is still 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.840 current because the build didn't changed. But one of the 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.760 things that pointed out was currently well in the legislation 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:52.040 as it was, there were rights for indigenous children and 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.560 their families and communities. So one of the one of 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.240 the protections, for example, was that there had to be 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:03.920 consideration to original child's right to enjoy the Aboriginal culture 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.440 and tradition of the child's family and community. And you know, 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:12.359 obviously through that connection that's now been weakened. Using a phrase, 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.320 and it's used a number of times where rights have 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.120 been stripped away, it's now the phrase should should be 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.520 given the opportunity to participate. So there's nothing mandatory about 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:23.120 it at all. 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.560 Am I right in saying that one of the things 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.040 that was a hallmark of this legislation was the complete 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.839 lack of consultation and the very short time for anyone 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.400 to say anything about it before the government put it 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:36.320 before the parliament. 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.120 That's exactly right, And as we're all very much aware, 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:44.120 what's incredibly risky about legislation innately is when legislation has 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:48.000 passed this quickly, when it's passed this quickly without a 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.960 proper exposure draft, for example, time for groups and bodies 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:56.600 and individuals to express their concerns. Obviously, the opposition put 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:01.520 forward some amendments that were informed by community and by 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.440 people on the ground, including lawyers, and none of that's 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.520 been heard, and a reflection of why that process was 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:12.040 such an appalling and frankly disrespectful approach to law making 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.920 is the fact that the Children's Commissioner s Sheelena Musk, 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.400 who was the first Aboriginal Children's Commissioner here in the territory, 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.640 decided that all she could do was resign because it 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.800 was so clear that the government simply wasn't going to listen. 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.280 I mean, it's just extraordinary that in the twenty first 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:32.680 century you would get legislation which is designed to diminish 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:37.600 the rights of the most vulnerable group in the community 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.000 Australia wide, but certainly. 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:40.640 In the Northern Territory. 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.920 It's an extraordinary piece of legislation and I think on 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.840 it again shows that I've been interested in Abbey's comments 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.720 on this because she, of course worked for Mark Dreyfus, 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.720 the former Attorney General in the Albanesi government. A lack 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.080 of a Human Rights Act in Australia, this sort of 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.560 legislation probably wouldn't pass muster in somewhere like Canada. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:02.760 What do you think. 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:04.040 I think that's exactly right. 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.000 There's a reason why so many groups have been pushing 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:09.880 for human rights up for so long. It would provide 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.920 Australia a proper framework to make sure that we're able 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:18.600 to properly protect against legislation like this. But frankly, I'm 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:20.840 not surprised that legislation like this has passed. 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:21.560 In the Northern Territory. 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.640 We're in a situation, unfortunately, when it comes to the 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.800 justice system where, for example, senior ministers and the Chief 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:33.360 Minister of this territory thinks that increasing the prison population 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:35.640 is a good thing, that it's a sign of success 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:39.440 in the justice system, and legislation like this, whilst it's 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.640 about the child protection system, will of course have a 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:44.800 direct impact on the justice system. 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:46.680 What's their rationale for doing it? I mean, what do 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.319 they say will be the benefits of the legislation? 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:52.679 Well, I mean that's a I mean the reason I 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.920 think there's silence by Happy Hi myself is it's a 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:56.720 very good question. 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.520 Do they not try to rationalize it? They don't bother 0:08:59.600 --> 0:08:59.920 they just do. 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:02.760 I'm going to say this because I don't come from here, 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.400 but I think this is an element of the systemic 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:11.040 and in trench racism of conservatives in the Northern Territory. 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.960 I mean, if you tried this sort of legislation lets 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:20.040 in Victoria, which is by no means perfect. I mean, 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:24.520 it would be seen as outlandish and seriously inhumane. But 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:28.440 you know, in terms of what's happening here, what's dangerous 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:32.720 about it is that every expert, like every expert within 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:37.120 the territory and outside the territory, says this legislation is 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.079 the wrong way to go turn back, and yet government 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:40.719 just ignores it. 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.800 I think fundamentally the government is trying to explain this 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.160 legislation by saying that by getting rid of that principle, 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:51.760 or by watering down that principle, we we'll ensure that 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.120 children Aboriginal in torrest rate I landed children in particular, 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.199 dealt with earlier. That there's earlier interventions. And what they're 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.120 trying to say is that right now children are left 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.520 in unsafe environments for too long a period of time, 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.079 and they're simply left in those environments because they are 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.880 Aboriginal Torres strait islander and they're blaming the principle and 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:14.240 that is fundamentally incorrect, which is what that statement from 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.439 all of the other ministers across the country have said. 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:23.520 And sorry, we should discuss this. Actually, Greg at the outset, nobody. 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:26.760 None of us want to see children in unsafe environments, 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.600 who are being treated poorly, who are simply not being 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:31.600 able to you know, who are in a position where 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.040 they're not able to be taken care of by their parents. 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.240 None of us want to see that this legislation isn't 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.120 about that, and I think that's the point that we 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.600 really need to drum home and make sure that Australians 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:47.760 across the country understand the principle itself does not interfere 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.080 with ensuring that all children are safe. And unfortunately, the 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:53.959 government is trying to spin this legislation, which, as Greg 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:57.480 has rightly pointed out, absolutely is rooted in systemic and 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:01.160 institutional racism. They're trying to spin legislation is something that 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.319 they're doing to keep Aboriginal and terrrest rate Island a 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.079 children safe, and frankly, we can't just sit back and 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:07.600 accept that that's why they're doing it. 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.360 So does it mean that there's a challenge coming up 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:12.800 in relation to legislation. 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.040 I would have thought so there's As we all know 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:19.400 as lawyers, there have been a number of challenges to 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:23.920 end legislation. I remember I think there was a challenge 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:28.720 in relation to the intervention legislation in two thousand and seven. 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:34.080 So I wouldn't be surprised to see some claim. I 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:36.160 think lawyers will be all over this, and for the 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:36.800 right reason. 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:40.079 Let's not forget that we're facing a federal court challenge 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:44.000 about dictating a cap on compensation when the government acts 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:45.200 unlawfully in prisons. 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:45.920 Yeah. 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.160 I mean, we've got a history of challenges and there's 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:51.920 a reason for it, and it's because we've unfortunately set 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.640 this precedent of bringing in laws like this that are rushed, 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.800 that haven't been properly consulted, and it's all to make 0:11:58.840 --> 0:11:59.760 political points. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.640 I mean, this is not just N two related to 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:07.000 Australia wide, but the hate speech laws passed earlier this year. 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.120 There was a one day hearing I think of a 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.880 Senate committee and then a week or a few days 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.760 to put your submissions in and the bill was already drafted. 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.560 This is the same problem and it's I mean, as 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:23.920 you've just said, Abbi, the problem is that you get 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:25.960 bad legislation, you get bad outcomes. 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:26.880 That's exactly right. 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.040 I was going to ask you, Abbi about the Northern 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:33.560 Territory have now sought to cap haven't they payments to 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.440 people who are the victims of unlawful acts in prisons, 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.960 illegal strip searchers, assaults, various other things which are compensable 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.520 if someone can demonstrate that the officer concerned was acting unlawfully. 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.920 The Northern Territory have now sought to place a financial 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.439 camp on how much compensation can be paid, and that 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:55.360 is now the subject of federal court challenge. 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.440 Well, many Australians may remember the full Corners report on 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.920 don Dale Youth Detention Center when kids were tear gassed 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:06.680 and split hoods were used against them. 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:11.320 Those cells were ghoulish, They were something medieval. 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:13.720 They were kept in those cells for up to twenty 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:14.520 four hours a day. 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:16.040 They had no running water. 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.360 The only water in the cell was in the toilet, 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:21.840 so they couldn't even wash their hands. They had to 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:26.640 request water. They eat food with their hands. It must 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.400 have been sheer hell, sheer heal. 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.199 That was an example of the Territory using Dracroonian methods 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.559 and frankly torturous methods in a use just as setting. 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.320 And obviously all of that then went made its way 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:46.280 through the courts and various compensation payments were paid out 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:52.079 in twenty twenty one, the Northern Territory sought to bring 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.680 in caps. For example, if an illegal strip search took place, 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:58.800 I think it was about a six thousand dollar cap. 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:01.040 If there was an illegal assault, it was about a 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.400 three thousand dollar cap. Prior to that, there was no cap. 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.560 And you've got to ask yourself why the Northern Territory 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.960 government thought and thinks that we need caps in order 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.680 to make sure that the government doesn't have to pay 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.160 out huge amounts of money for the way in which 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:19.440 it treats prisoners. 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.080 Well, we know that it's almost an acknowledgment that there's 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.480 unlawful activity going on all the time, which you've properly 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.280 compensated for is very expensive. 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:33.320 Well, and of course this encourages unlawful behavior. This encourages 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:37.320 another Dondale because you know, you'd go to a lawyer 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:40.400 and a lawyer and'd say, well, you're only going to 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.400 get six thousand dollars or five thousand dollars a lot 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:48.359 of work in this and there's you know, no serious compensation. 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:52.480 Makes it difficult to run these actions. The other thing 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.880 I should say is you took about spithoods. As I 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.080 understand it, the current government said spithoods are back. They have, 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:05.400 despite the despite the internationally shameful figure of Dylan Vola 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:10.160 in the wheelchair with the spit hood, this government says, oh, well, 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.160 who cares. You know, it gets me a vote, you 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.560 know in Catherine or Alice Springs or dal and I'll 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.600 do it. It's just you know, you combine that with 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.440 capscomb spray. I understand Abby that there will be armed 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:27.200 officers on buses. That's right, this is the Deep South. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:29.960 I mean Trump would come here and say this is 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.360 fantastic this place because Chief Minister's doing a great job. 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:35.480 Him Wood and it's something we should all be incredibly 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:36.200 embarrassed about. 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.040 Yes, well, what's the idea of armed officers on buses? 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:40.280 What are they there for? 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.240 Well, there's so much lawlessness. I've seen a few buses 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.840 driving past. I have to say they look very sedate 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.600 to me. But apparently there's some terrible lawlessness on buses 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.960 to the point where you have to have offices with guns. 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.280 I mean you can just imagine a confined environment in there. 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.360 A person with mental illness, for example, has an episode 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.920 on a bus, which is frightening for people, and you 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:08.720 could imagine some panicked kid who's in a uniform just 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:09.600 pulling the gun out. 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:10.520 That's what will happen. 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.520 Inevitably. I mean, you hope not, but it's inevitable. 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.200 The other issue which Abby I was wanting to ask 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.040 you about, although it's been bubbling away for a while now, 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.440 but there's a serious issue about legal aid in the 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.640 Northern Territory, isn't there, and in particular whether or not 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.960 the territory government is funding legal aid properly so that 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.920 the workload can be dealt with. Am I right about that? 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:33.600 You are? 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.880 And it's an incredibly concerning reality here in the territory where, 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.600 unlike every other state and territory in the country, if 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:46.280 you need a lawyer, you won't necessarily get one. We've 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.240 spoken at length in the past about how important legal 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.640 aid is, not just in the territory but across the country. 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.040 And even legal aid in its current form means that 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.280 there are people that fall through the gaps. But here 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.400 in the territory, if you're not in custody, you do 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:01.800 not get the legal aid lawyer. 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.480 Wow, And that is incredible. 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:07.639 At risk of going to jail. 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.480 Even if you're at risk of going to jail, if 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:14.640 you are not currently in custody, you do not get 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:16.840 the legal aid lawyer. And the reason why that is 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.439 the case is because the current government took away about 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:22.320 four million dollars of funding. 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.680 While saying they're increasing it infected diminished. 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.199 They've explained it away is an increase in baseline funding, 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:33.160 but they've completely scrapped all of the expensive case budget. 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.600 They've scrapped the discretionary budget, all of which, as we 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.480 all know, is where a lot of legal aid funding 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.520 has to end up going. Trials are expensive and so 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.720 fundamentally and we know this because the Director of Legal Aid, 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:52.400 Catherin Voumard, sent a letter to Klan explaining the realities 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.399 of the funding, and so we know that there was 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.960 ultimately and fundamentally a decrease or a cut in funding 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.400 and as a they've had to cut services. And what 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.080 that means is if you're a Territorian finds yourself in 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.680 some kind of trouble with the law and you can't 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.200 afford a lawyer, you are at it alone. 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:15.440 And so what happens what happens? I mean you're talking 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.280 about cases in the local court and cases in the 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:19.359 Supreme Court as well. 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:24.000 Yep, talking about both cases. I mean, there's complex avenues 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:25.520 that we could talk about. We don't have time to 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.360 talk about at all. There's nice dietric applications that could 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.040 be made to try and I guess put your case 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.720 on pause until a lawyer can be either allocated to 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.280 you or until you can afford a lawyer. But all 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:42.280 that means is massive delays in the justice system, and 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.200 of course justice not being served. 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:48.880 Are judges and magistrates or local court judges and Supreme 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.280 Court judges, are they being asked to stop cases and 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.800 listen until a lawyer can be found for someone? And 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:56.920 is that happening? Cases are just stopping. 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:01.199 It's only very recently that there was a Court of 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.640 Criminal Appeal decision which made it clear that Dietrich applications 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.800 could be made in the local court. So we're starting 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.000 to see those applications being made and we're certainly seeing 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.560 justice on pause. We've seen it in the Supreme Court 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.520 from the Chief Justice himself, who made it very clear 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.640 that a defendant was not able to simply represent himself 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.640 in a serious indictable trial where he was likely, if 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.160 found guilty, to go to prison for a long period 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:29.600 of time. 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.600 We should explain for our listeners. The Dietrich principle, which 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.680 is that the High Court said many many years ago, 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.760 I think over at nineteen ninety two, said that you know, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.920 if you in a serious trial and you're not legally represented, 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.960 there can be what's called to stay and adjournment until 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.760 you get a lawyer. And that's been a principle for 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.520 a long long time now in Australian law. Leaving aside 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.840 the human rights issues about the right people have to 0:19:55.920 --> 0:20:01.639 legal representation, this is really dumb forinancial management on the 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:06.320 part of the Northern Territory government because delays is cost 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.960 to the court. It means eventually what happens, as has 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.919 happened in tas many a list of delays, delayed cases 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.120 get so big you have to go on higher judges 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:19.000 to sit to try and help clean up that list. 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:21.960 But also it means more pressure on the prison system. 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:26.159 So you know, you might think, politically art smart, why 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.600 should we give lawyers, you know, these defense lawyers money, 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:35.520 But it's fiscally irresponsible, yes, I mean, like you know, 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.760 banging everybody up in prison and youth detention it costs 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:44.160 a bomb and you know, government's governments seem to think 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:46.480 that you know, we've got to cut here and cut 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:50.240 here and cut here, But what they're doing is just 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:51.560 kicking the can down the road. 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.960 My fear is that the sort of tabloid pictures of 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:58.720 more and more people going to jail and going to 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.880 jail for longer, and the problem not being solved, but 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:06.080 the imprisonment becomes the solution. My fear is that in 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.040 the current atmosphere in this country, that sort of stuff 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:13.840 appeals to an increasingly large number of voters and is 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:18.440 very popular. Regrettably, people aren't interested in what happens after 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:20.520 the prison gate shuts. They just want to see someone 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:21.480 going behind the gate. 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:24.280 It is and it's very concerning that that is the case. 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.240 But I think what's important to talk about and to 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:31.119 remember is, as Greg said, obviously the immense cost. I mean, 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:32.840 you could put someone up in the Hilton here in 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:35.640 Darwin in the dry season. It's about four hundred dollars 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:39.320 a day that was keeping people incarcerated. Obviously, there's a 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.520 huge amount of money that we're spending on it, but 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:46.040 it's also just incredibly stupid policy. Our prisons are not 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.560 designed to rehabilitate people. There are no programs that work 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.159