Speaker 1: Welcome to Law the Podcast. I'm Lex Lasry from a
Speaker 1: Victorian and Northern Territory Supreme Court judge and recently retired
Speaker 1: from the Northern Territory Supreme Court.
Speaker 2: I'm Greg Barnes. I'm a barrister, I'm a senior council
Speaker 2: and I've got a long standing interest in law reform issues.
Speaker 1: So Greg, this is the first episode of Law the Podcast.
Speaker 1: I suppose we ought to have a quick chat about
Speaker 1: what we expect to get out of this and what
Speaker 1: the podcast is about. It's not a podcast for lawyers.
Speaker 1: It's a podcast for everyone interested in legal issues, and
Speaker 1: we'll talk about legal issues, both Australian and international legal
Speaker 1: issues and broad legal issues including political legal issues. So
Speaker 1: it should be an interesting journey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I think that the point is,
Speaker 2: and I often say this to people in discussions, the
Speaker 2: law is our lives. We live the law every day,
Speaker 2: and the decision that courts make, the decisions that governments
Speaker 2: make when they pass laws, and the way the law
Speaker 2: interacts with people, you know, is really important. And we
Speaker 2: often said in a sort of one dimensional way we
Speaker 2: think of law. If you ask people what's the law,
Speaker 2: they'll often just say you know, a judge and a
Speaker 2: jury something of that nature. And of course the law
Speaker 2: is really complex and it does need, I think a
Speaker 2: podcast like this to get people interested to understand because
Speaker 2: it can be, as we know, Lex, a very dry topic.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, in this first episode, we're certainly going to
Speaker 1: be talking about the way the law affects people because
Speaker 1: we're going to be concentrating on very recent developments in
Speaker 1: the Northern Territory with Abbi Raj Kumar, who's the vice
Speaker 1: president of the Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territory.
Speaker 1: We'll be going into some detail with her about issues
Speaker 1: in the Northern Territory, which, in my opinion, Greg, everybody
Speaker 1: in the country ought to be interested in. You're up
Speaker 1: there at the moment I am.
Speaker 2: I know that you've been up here previously and your
Speaker 2: reputation is intact. Lex, I've fixed it for you.
Speaker 1: Yes, thanks the diminish it I had.
Speaker 2: I've done nothing to diminish your great reputation. But I
Speaker 2: am up here for a couple of weeks. I've been
Speaker 2: working with NAJA, the Aboriginal Legal Service, a lot of
Speaker 2: young lawyers there. It's a fantastic enriching experience, but also
Speaker 2: we'll talk about it more. The territory is a hard gig, yes,
Speaker 2: it is. The things that are happening up here are
Speaker 2: extraordinary and it should be Australia wide news. That reminds
Speaker 2: me a bit of the Deep South in the United
Speaker 2: States and the stories you hear there about the systematic
Speaker 2: racism and the way in which the place operates is
Speaker 2: really in many ways and apartheid state in terms of
Speaker 2: how the justice system and society operates.
Speaker 1: All right, So we'll get into it. To those people
Speaker 1: who are listening for the first time, don't forget to
Speaker 1: like and subscribe. That helps us. It helps our podcast
Speaker 1: get noticed by people, and that's important to get the
Speaker 1: word out and to get the issues talked about. So
Speaker 1: we'll get underway.
Speaker 2: The Northern Territory government has decided on legislation after that
Speaker 2: tragic death that young girl in al Springs earlier this year.
Speaker 3: A man has been charged with the murder of a
Speaker 3: five year old girl in Alice Springs, along with two
Speaker 3: other offenses. The girl, now known as Kumenjai Little Baby,
Speaker 3: disappeared from the Old Timers Aboriginal town camp, triggering a
Speaker 3: massive search.
Speaker 2: They've decided to put through the Parliament, and of course
Speaker 2: there's no upper house here, so it just goes straight through,
Speaker 2: which really weakens the protections for Aboriginal kids and without
Speaker 2: any exaggeration, you'd have to say, is creating a stolen
Speaker 2: generation for the future. There have been a number of protests.
Speaker 2: I know that some of my colleagues at NAJA have
Speaker 2: been in those protests this week, but unfortunately the bill
Speaker 2: is now law.
Speaker 1: Well, we're very lucky in this episode to have Abbi
Speaker 1: raj Kuma with us Am. I right that one of
Speaker 1: the main things that the legislation does is repeal something
Speaker 1: called the child placement principle that was I think a
Speaker 1: result of the Bringing Them Home Report. How did that
Speaker 1: principle work and why is it so significant?
Speaker 4: That is right?
Speaker 5: So it's the Aboriginal in Terres Strait Island a child
Speaker 5: placement principle, which is a principle that was nationally graded
Speaker 5: by every single jurisdiction and this legislation is a clear
Speaker 5: divergence from that principle, which is why every single state
Speaker 5: and territory apart from Queensland and the Northern Territory, their
Speaker 5: child Protection ministers have written a statement affirming the importance
Speaker 5: of the principle and making it very clear that that
Speaker 5: principle needs to be central to child protection decision making,
Speaker 5: and also makes it clear that it's entirely consistent with
Speaker 5: child safety. So this idea that you know, moving away
Speaker 5: from this principle is about making children or the lives
Speaker 5: of children safer or making sure that we're keeping children safe,
Speaker 5: is completely not true. It's a principle that is fundamentally
Speaker 5: was put in place to ensure that Abergeal and Torres
Speaker 5: right Islander children have connections to culture and family and
Speaker 5: king in a way that is safe. That is, if
Speaker 5: children aren't allowed to remain in their family home for
Speaker 5: whatever reason, that there is still an acute and proper
Speaker 5: avenue and mechanism for them to continue those important connections
Speaker 5: to culture, family and king. And really that's just gone now,
Speaker 5: so it's not even about watering it down, it's just gone.
Speaker 2: NIJA put out a very very good and comprehensive release
Speaker 2: on this on the tenth of July, which is still
Speaker 2: current because the build didn't changed. But one of the
Speaker 2: things that pointed out was currently well in the legislation
Speaker 2: as it was, there were rights for indigenous children and
Speaker 2: their families and communities. So one of the one of
Speaker 2: the protections, for example, was that there had to be
Speaker 2: consideration to original child's right to enjoy the Aboriginal culture
Speaker 2: and tradition of the child's family and community. And you know,
Speaker 2: obviously through that connection that's now been weakened. Using a phrase,
Speaker 2: and it's used a number of times where rights have
Speaker 2: been stripped away, it's now the phrase should should be
Speaker 2: given the opportunity to participate. So there's nothing mandatory about
Speaker 2: it at all.
Speaker 1: Am I right in saying that one of the things
Speaker 1: that was a hallmark of this legislation was the complete
Speaker 1: lack of consultation and the very short time for anyone
Speaker 1: to say anything about it before the government put it
Speaker 1: before the parliament.
Speaker 5: That's exactly right, And as we're all very much aware,
Speaker 5: what's incredibly risky about legislation innately is when legislation has
Speaker 5: passed this quickly, when it's passed this quickly without a
Speaker 5: proper exposure draft, for example, time for groups and bodies
Speaker 5: and individuals to express their concerns. Obviously, the opposition put
Speaker 5: forward some amendments that were informed by community and by
Speaker 5: people on the ground, including lawyers, and none of that's
Speaker 5: been heard, and a reflection of why that process was
Speaker 5: such an appalling and frankly disrespectful approach to law making
Speaker 5: is the fact that the Children's Commissioner s Sheelena Musk,
Speaker 5: who was the first Aboriginal Children's Commissioner here in the territory,
Speaker 5: decided that all she could do was resign because it
Speaker 5: was so clear that the government simply wasn't going to listen.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just extraordinary that in the twenty first
Speaker 2: century you would get legislation which is designed to diminish
Speaker 2: the rights of the most vulnerable group in the community
Speaker 2: Australia wide, but certainly.
Speaker 1: In the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2: It's an extraordinary piece of legislation and I think on
Speaker 2: it again shows that I've been interested in Abbey's comments
Speaker 2: on this because she, of course worked for Mark Dreyfus,
Speaker 2: the former Attorney General in the Albanesi government. A lack
Speaker 2: of a Human Rights Act in Australia, this sort of
Speaker 2: legislation probably wouldn't pass muster in somewhere like Canada.
Speaker 1: What do you think.
Speaker 4: I think that's exactly right.
Speaker 5: There's a reason why so many groups have been pushing
Speaker 5: for human rights up for so long. It would provide
Speaker 5: Australia a proper framework to make sure that we're able
Speaker 5: to properly protect against legislation like this. But frankly, I'm
Speaker 5: not surprised that legislation like this has passed.
Speaker 4: In the Northern Territory.
Speaker 5: We're in a situation, unfortunately, when it comes to the
Speaker 5: justice system where, for example, senior ministers and the Chief
Speaker 5: Minister of this territory thinks that increasing the prison population
Speaker 5: is a good thing, that it's a sign of success
Speaker 5: in the justice system, and legislation like this, whilst it's
Speaker 5: about the child protection system, will of course have a
Speaker 5: direct impact on the justice system.
Speaker 1: What's their rationale for doing it? I mean, what do
Speaker 1: they say will be the benefits of the legislation?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's a I mean the reason I
Speaker 2: think there's silence by Happy Hi myself is it's a
Speaker 2: very good question.
Speaker 1: Do they not try to rationalize it? They don't bother
Speaker 1: they just do.
Speaker 2: I'm going to say this because I don't come from here,
Speaker 2: but I think this is an element of the systemic
Speaker 2: and in trench racism of conservatives in the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you tried this sort of legislation lets
Speaker 2: in Victoria, which is by no means perfect. I mean,
Speaker 2: it would be seen as outlandish and seriously inhumane. But
Speaker 2: you know, in terms of what's happening here, what's dangerous
Speaker 2: about it is that every expert, like every expert within
Speaker 2: the territory and outside the territory, says this legislation is
Speaker 2: the wrong way to go turn back, and yet government
Speaker 2: just ignores it.
Speaker 5: I think fundamentally the government is trying to explain this
Speaker 5: legislation by saying that by getting rid of that principle,
Speaker 5: or by watering down that principle, we we'll ensure that
Speaker 5: children Aboriginal in torrest rate I landed children in particular,
Speaker 5: dealt with earlier. That there's earlier interventions. And what they're
Speaker 5: trying to say is that right now children are left
Speaker 5: in unsafe environments for too long a period of time,
Speaker 5: and they're simply left in those environments because they are
Speaker 5: Aboriginal Torres strait islander and they're blaming the principle and
Speaker 5: that is fundamentally incorrect, which is what that statement from
Speaker 5: all of the other ministers across the country have said.
Speaker 5: And sorry, we should discuss this. Actually, Greg at the outset, nobody.
Speaker 5: None of us want to see children in unsafe environments,
Speaker 5: who are being treated poorly, who are simply not being
Speaker 5: able to you know, who are in a position where
Speaker 5: they're not able to be taken care of by their parents.
Speaker 5: None of us want to see that this legislation isn't
Speaker 5: about that, and I think that's the point that we
Speaker 5: really need to drum home and make sure that Australians
Speaker 5: across the country understand the principle itself does not interfere
Speaker 5: with ensuring that all children are safe. And unfortunately, the
Speaker 5: government is trying to spin this legislation, which, as Greg
Speaker 5: has rightly pointed out, absolutely is rooted in systemic and
Speaker 5: institutional racism. They're trying to spin legislation is something that
Speaker 5: they're doing to keep Aboriginal and terrrest rate Island a
Speaker 5: children safe, and frankly, we can't just sit back and
Speaker 5: accept that that's why they're doing it.
Speaker 1: So does it mean that there's a challenge coming up
Speaker 1: in relation to legislation.
Speaker 2: I would have thought so there's As we all know
Speaker 2: as lawyers, there have been a number of challenges to
Speaker 2: end legislation. I remember I think there was a challenge
Speaker 2: in relation to the intervention legislation in two thousand and seven.
Speaker 2: So I wouldn't be surprised to see some claim. I
Speaker 2: think lawyers will be all over this, and for the
Speaker 2: right reason.
Speaker 5: Let's not forget that we're facing a federal court challenge
Speaker 5: about dictating a cap on compensation when the government acts
Speaker 5: unlawfully in prisons.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean, we've got a history of challenges and there's
Speaker 5: a reason for it, and it's because we've unfortunately set
Speaker 5: this precedent of bringing in laws like this that are rushed,
Speaker 5: that haven't been properly consulted, and it's all to make
Speaker 5: political points.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is not just N two related to
Speaker 2: Australia wide, but the hate speech laws passed earlier this year.
Speaker 2: There was a one day hearing I think of a
Speaker 2: Senate committee and then a week or a few days
Speaker 2: to put your submissions in and the bill was already drafted.
Speaker 2: This is the same problem and it's I mean, as
Speaker 2: you've just said, Abbi, the problem is that you get
Speaker 2: bad legislation, you get bad outcomes.
Speaker 4: That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, Abbi about the Northern
Speaker 1: Territory have now sought to cap haven't they payments to
Speaker 1: people who are the victims of unlawful acts in prisons,
Speaker 1: illegal strip searchers, assaults, various other things which are compensable
Speaker 1: if someone can demonstrate that the officer concerned was acting unlawfully.
Speaker 1: The Northern Territory have now sought to place a financial
Speaker 1: camp on how much compensation can be paid, and that
Speaker 1: is now the subject of federal court challenge.
Speaker 5: Well, many Australians may remember the full Corners report on
Speaker 5: don Dale Youth Detention Center when kids were tear gassed
Speaker 5: and split hoods were used against them.
Speaker 6: Those cells were ghoulish, They were something medieval.
Speaker 3: They were kept in those cells for up to twenty
Speaker 3: four hours a day.
Speaker 1: They had no running water.
Speaker 6: The only water in the cell was in the toilet,
Speaker 6: so they couldn't even wash their hands. They had to
Speaker 6: request water. They eat food with their hands. It must
Speaker 6: have been sheer hell, sheer heal.
Speaker 5: That was an example of the Territory using Dracroonian methods
Speaker 5: and frankly torturous methods in a use just as setting.
Speaker 5: And obviously all of that then went made its way
Speaker 5: through the courts and various compensation payments were paid out
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty one, the Northern Territory sought to bring
Speaker 5: in caps. For example, if an illegal strip search took place,
Speaker 5: I think it was about a six thousand dollar cap.
Speaker 5: If there was an illegal assault, it was about a
Speaker 5: three thousand dollar cap. Prior to that, there was no cap.
Speaker 5: And you've got to ask yourself why the Northern Territory
Speaker 5: government thought and thinks that we need caps in order
Speaker 5: to make sure that the government doesn't have to pay
Speaker 5: out huge amounts of money for the way in which
Speaker 5: it treats prisoners.
Speaker 1: Well, we know that it's almost an acknowledgment that there's
Speaker 1: unlawful activity going on all the time, which you've properly
Speaker 1: compensated for is very expensive.
Speaker 2: Well, and of course this encourages unlawful behavior. This encourages
Speaker 2: another Dondale because you know, you'd go to a lawyer
Speaker 2: and a lawyer and'd say, well, you're only going to
Speaker 2: get six thousand dollars or five thousand dollars a lot
Speaker 2: of work in this and there's you know, no serious compensation.
Speaker 2: Makes it difficult to run these actions. The other thing
Speaker 2: I should say is you took about spithoods. As I
Speaker 2: understand it, the current government said spithoods are back. They have,
Speaker 2: despite the despite the internationally shameful figure of Dylan Vola
Speaker 2: in the wheelchair with the spit hood, this government says, oh, well,
Speaker 2: who cares. You know, it gets me a vote, you
Speaker 2: know in Catherine or Alice Springs or dal and I'll
Speaker 2: do it. It's just you know, you combine that with
Speaker 2: capscomb spray. I understand Abby that there will be armed
Speaker 2: officers on buses. That's right, this is the Deep South.
Speaker 2: I mean Trump would come here and say this is
Speaker 2: fantastic this place because Chief Minister's doing a great job.
Speaker 4: Him Wood and it's something we should all be incredibly
Speaker 4: embarrassed about.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, what's the idea of armed officers on buses?
Speaker 1: What are they there for?
Speaker 2: Well, there's so much lawlessness. I've seen a few buses
Speaker 2: driving past. I have to say they look very sedate
Speaker 2: to me. But apparently there's some terrible lawlessness on buses
Speaker 2: to the point where you have to have offices with guns.
Speaker 2: I mean you can just imagine a confined environment in there.
Speaker 2: A person with mental illness, for example, has an episode
Speaker 2: on a bus, which is frightening for people, and you
Speaker 2: could imagine some panicked kid who's in a uniform just
Speaker 2: pulling the gun out.
Speaker 1: That's what will happen.
Speaker 2: Inevitably. I mean, you hope not, but it's inevitable.
Speaker 1: The other issue which Abby I was wanting to ask
Speaker 1: you about, although it's been bubbling away for a while now,
Speaker 1: but there's a serious issue about legal aid in the
Speaker 1: Northern Territory, isn't there, and in particular whether or not
Speaker 1: the territory government is funding legal aid properly so that
Speaker 1: the workload can be dealt with. Am I right about that?
Speaker 1: You are?
Speaker 5: And it's an incredibly concerning reality here in the territory where,
Speaker 5: unlike every other state and territory in the country, if
Speaker 5: you need a lawyer, you won't necessarily get one. We've
Speaker 5: spoken at length in the past about how important legal
Speaker 5: aid is, not just in the territory but across the country.
Speaker 5: And even legal aid in its current form means that
Speaker 5: there are people that fall through the gaps. But here
Speaker 5: in the territory, if you're not in custody, you do
Speaker 5: not get the legal aid lawyer.
Speaker 4: Wow, And that is incredible.
Speaker 2: At risk of going to jail.
Speaker 5: Even if you're at risk of going to jail, if
Speaker 5: you are not currently in custody, you do not get
Speaker 5: the legal aid lawyer. And the reason why that is
Speaker 5: the case is because the current government took away about
Speaker 5: four million dollars of funding.
Speaker 1: While saying they're increasing it infected diminished.
Speaker 5: They've explained it away is an increase in baseline funding,
Speaker 5: but they've completely scrapped all of the expensive case budget.
Speaker 5: They've scrapped the discretionary budget, all of which, as we
Speaker 5: all know, is where a lot of legal aid funding
Speaker 5: has to end up going. Trials are expensive and so
Speaker 5: fundamentally and we know this because the Director of Legal Aid,
Speaker 5: Catherin Voumard, sent a letter to Klan explaining the realities
Speaker 5: of the funding, and so we know that there was
Speaker 5: ultimately and fundamentally a decrease or a cut in funding
Speaker 5: and as a they've had to cut services. And what
Speaker 5: that means is if you're a Territorian finds yourself in
Speaker 5: some kind of trouble with the law and you can't
Speaker 5: afford a lawyer, you are at it alone.
Speaker 1: And so what happens what happens? I mean you're talking
Speaker 1: about cases in the local court and cases in the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court as well.
Speaker 5: Yep, talking about both cases. I mean, there's complex avenues
Speaker 5: that we could talk about. We don't have time to
Speaker 5: talk about at all. There's nice dietric applications that could
Speaker 5: be made to try and I guess put your case
Speaker 5: on pause until a lawyer can be either allocated to
Speaker 5: you or until you can afford a lawyer. But all
Speaker 5: that means is massive delays in the justice system, and
Speaker 5: of course justice not being served.
Speaker 1: Are judges and magistrates or local court judges and Supreme
Speaker 1: Court judges, are they being asked to stop cases and
Speaker 1: listen until a lawyer can be found for someone? And
Speaker 1: is that happening? Cases are just stopping.
Speaker 5: It's only very recently that there was a Court of
Speaker 5: Criminal Appeal decision which made it clear that Dietrich applications
Speaker 5: could be made in the local court. So we're starting
Speaker 5: to see those applications being made and we're certainly seeing
Speaker 5: justice on pause. We've seen it in the Supreme Court
Speaker 5: from the Chief Justice himself, who made it very clear
Speaker 5: that a defendant was not able to simply represent himself
Speaker 5: in a serious indictable trial where he was likely, if
Speaker 5: found guilty, to go to prison for a long period
Speaker 5: of time.
Speaker 2: We should explain for our listeners. The Dietrich principle, which
Speaker 2: is that the High Court said many many years ago,
Speaker 2: I think over at nineteen ninety two, said that you know,
Speaker 2: if you in a serious trial and you're not legally represented,
Speaker 2: there can be what's called to stay and adjournment until
Speaker 2: you get a lawyer. And that's been a principle for
Speaker 2: a long long time now in Australian law. Leaving aside
Speaker 2: the human rights issues about the right people have to
Speaker 2: legal representation, this is really dumb forinancial management on the
Speaker 2: part of the Northern Territory government because delays is cost
Speaker 2: to the court. It means eventually what happens, as has
Speaker 2: happened in tas many a list of delays, delayed cases
Speaker 2: get so big you have to go on higher judges
Speaker 2: to sit to try and help clean up that list.
Speaker 2: But also it means more pressure on the prison system.
Speaker 2: So you know, you might think, politically art smart, why
Speaker 2: should we give lawyers, you know, these defense lawyers money,
Speaker 2: But it's fiscally irresponsible, yes, I mean, like you know,
Speaker 2: banging everybody up in prison and youth detention it costs
Speaker 2: a bomb and you know, government's governments seem to think
Speaker 2: that you know, we've got to cut here and cut
Speaker 2: here and cut here, But what they're doing is just
Speaker 2: kicking the can down the road.
Speaker 1: My fear is that the sort of tabloid pictures of
Speaker 1: more and more people going to jail and going to
Speaker 1: jail for longer, and the problem not being solved, but
Speaker 1: the imprisonment becomes the solution. My fear is that in
Speaker 1: the current atmosphere in this country, that sort of stuff
Speaker 1: appeals to an increasingly large number of voters and is
Speaker 1: very popular. Regrettably, people aren't interested in what happens after
Speaker 1: the prison gate shuts. They just want to see someone
Speaker 1: going behind the gate.
Speaker 5: It is and it's very concerning that that is the case.
Speaker 5: But I think what's important to talk about and to
Speaker 5: remember is, as Greg said, obviously the immense cost. I mean,
Speaker 5: you could put someone up in the Hilton here in
Speaker 5: Darwin in the dry season. It's about four hundred dollars
Speaker 5: a day that was keeping people incarcerated. Obviously, there's a
Speaker 5: huge amount of money that we're spending on it, but
Speaker 5: it's also just incredibly stupid policy. Our prisons are not
Speaker 5: designed to rehabilitate people. There are no programs that work
Speaker 5: that are in prisons. So this idea that we're just
Speaker 5: going to lock everyone up and somehow the problem's going
Speaker 5: to magically disappear. It's just completely preposterous. And as you say, Lex,
Speaker 5: yes it may appeal to some people, but I actually
Speaker 5: think that Territorians are smarter than the government thinks. Territorians
Speaker 5: understand that to the most part, if you put someone
Speaker 5: in jail for a short period of time and then
Speaker 5: you let them out, nothing has changed in that time.
Speaker 5: If anything, Actually the evidence shows that things get worse.
Speaker 4: They certainly don't get better.
Speaker 5: And so I think that is why I'm so concerned
Speaker 5: about the rhetoric and the lines that are being thrown
Speaker 5: out in relation to the government being proud of the
Speaker 5: increase in incarceration. Somehow that increase is being seen as
Speaker 5: a measure of success, when really it should be seen
Speaker 5: for what it is, which is a measure of failure.
Speaker 5: Government policy failing, which is leading to people falling off
Speaker 5: that cliff and landing in prison.
Speaker 2: Well, and then get you get increased what we call recidivism, right,
Speaker 2: that is coming back into the system because you've committed
Speaker 2: an offense within two years of release, and again you'd
Speaker 2: just piling on the expense. One other issue that I
Speaker 2: wanted to raise and just pulled out some data before
Speaker 2: the podcast. Four one hundred and sixty seven per one
Speaker 2: hundred thousand adults is the Indigenous incarceration rate in the
Speaker 2: Northern Territory for white for Europeans, it's two hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty five. I mean, that's just staggering. I mean, in
Speaker 2: your practice, for example, you did a lot of criminal
Speaker 2: how often would you see a white defendant?
Speaker 5: Incredibly rarely. I mean when I was at legal eight
Speaker 5: it was. It was obviously a lot higher given that
Speaker 5: Nager exists. But all you have to do is do
Speaker 5: a prison visit Greek to understand the reality of prisons
Speaker 5: here in the territory.
Speaker 1: Or go to the court. I think in the time,
Speaker 1: the relatively short time I spent up there, I think
Speaker 1: I sentenced at most two non indigenous accused. All the
Speaker 1: rest were Indigenous.
Speaker 2: Well, you go to the local court in Darwin, where
Speaker 2: I've been going the last couple of weeks, if you
Speaker 2: see a non indigenous face, my experience was, I mean,
Speaker 2: one it's extremely rare, and two they may well be
Speaker 2: a witness. But one of the things I did want
Speaker 2: to say about this, of course, is that people say, oh, well,
Speaker 2: you know, Indigenous people commit more crime. I mean, the
Speaker 2: real issue is dispossession and poverty, lack of opportunity. You know,
Speaker 2: we could keep going there and that's why you have
Speaker 2: over representation in your justices.
Speaker 1: And it won't ever improve under the current regime, no prospect.
Speaker 5: That's right, And lex, I'm curious to hear your experience
Speaker 5: as a judge in terms of the stories that you heard,
Speaker 5: But would I be right, and assuming that most of
Speaker 5: the pleas that you'd see in the Supreme Court, you're
Speaker 5: hearing a huge amount about a person's life. You're hearing
Speaker 5: what they've gone through in their story. It's incredibly rare
Speaker 5: that you don't hear a devastating story of life and
Speaker 5: policy affecting someone in such a negative way.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's the bug me principle. Pretty much.
Speaker 1: Every day you just hear continuous story of deprivation, and
Speaker 1: I just don't get a sense that there's any will
Speaker 1: to do anything about improving that over all circumstances. It's
Speaker 1: it's just seems to me in the Northern Territory to
Speaker 1: be at least at government level, to be accepted as
Speaker 1: a factive life that we just have to put up with.
Speaker 1: It's just the will in the people who could do
Speaker 1: something about it just isn't there at the moment.
Speaker 2: Well, not only that, I think, I think under the
Speaker 2: current government, as Abby was pointing out, I think there's
Speaker 2: some pride take and political pride take and in the
Speaker 2: fact that they lock people up. In fact, the deputy
Speaker 2: Chief Minister up here is a guy called Jared Mayley,
Speaker 2: who I think.
Speaker 1: He's a lawyer.
Speaker 2: His brother's a lawyer.
Speaker 1: His brother's lawyer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Peter, and I know Peter, and we're not
Speaker 2: criticizing Petter at all. But his brother said words the
Speaker 2: effect of if you're getting into trouble, we'll find you
Speaker 2: a bed. And what he meant was it mean. It
Speaker 2: didn't mean harmless shelter, he meant prison. I mean that's
Speaker 2: the attitude, and the attitude is also let's build more prisons.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's a pretty some of these ministers
Speaker 2: here don't go to the United States of all places
Speaker 2: where you're seeing some states, right wing states like Texas
Speaker 2: close prisons not because they've developed bleeding hearts or compassion,
Speaker 2: but because of the expense it just doesn't work, and
Speaker 2: they're thinking, why are we spending all our budget on
Speaker 2: this one. We could be spending a non preventative programs
Speaker 2: or better schooling, etc. So you know, the penny is
Speaker 2: dropping amongst some of the right around the world, but
Speaker 2: not here.
Speaker 1: No now, Abbe, I thought we'd conclude your segment in
Speaker 1: this podcast by giving you a chance to plug the
Speaker 1: Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territory, better known as CLANT.
Speaker 1: You've just held a very successful conference in Bali which celebrates,
Speaker 1: apart from anything else, forty years of that conference. Tell
Speaker 1: us a bit about the work that CLANT does and
Speaker 1: the things you're involved in.
Speaker 4: Thanks.
Speaker 5: CLANT was founded in nineteen eighty six, and as you've said,
Speaker 5: we've just celebrated our huge fortieth anniversary in Bali. We
Speaker 5: had two hundred and forty five delegates from across the
Speaker 5: country and it was an incredible opportunity for defense lawyers, prosecutors, judges.
Speaker 5: We had psychologists and experts all sitting around discussing some
Speaker 5: of the more serious issues that are plaguing the territory
Speaker 5: and of course the country. CLANT was created to be
Speaker 5: a voice in the criminal justice system for the most
Speaker 5: vulnerable and disadvantaged people here in the territory, and I'm
Speaker 5: really proud that Clant.
Speaker 4: Has continued to be that voice.
Speaker 5: We've had incredible people work their way through either being
Speaker 5: the president or being members, and we've got a long
Speaker 5: history of making sure that when laws like the ones
Speaker 5: that we've discussed on this podcast are pasted, that the
Speaker 5: truth is being told in some way, and that defendants
Speaker 5: victims of crime as well, that everybody has a voice
Speaker 5: and is heard in a way in which that is meaningful.
Speaker 1: Abby, thank you very much for being part of our podcast.
Speaker 1: Been a great pleasure to have you and to have
Speaker 1: your insight arts I must say, Greg, perhaps I won't
Speaker 1: speak for you because I'm a lot older than you,
Speaker 1: but as someone who's a lot older than everybody, it's
Speaker 1: great to see people of Abby's talent and commitment involved
Speaker 1: in these issues. It's the thing that gives us hope
Speaker 1: that people like that will really make a difference. So
Speaker 1: ABBI thank you again for being part of our podcast.
Speaker 2: Just add to that, the young lawyers at NARGA that
Speaker 2: I work with are all much younger than me, but
Speaker 2: I think it's fantastic to see that sort of commitment.
Speaker 2: I mean it's you know, you come out of law
Speaker 2: school and you're a young lawyer and you've got enough
Speaker 2: on your plate trying to establish your practice. But I
Speaker 2: think the law is political, and I think Abby, it's
Speaker 2: all strength to your hand because your work is critical,
Speaker 2: particularly in dark times. I think that's when it really counts.
Speaker 4: I think it's really important.
Speaker 5: I think one of the things that keeps all of
Speaker 5: the young lawyers as inspired as we are and as
Speaker 5: determined to make a difference in whatever way we can
Speaker 5: as were, despite how difficult it can be, especially in
Speaker 5: the current climate, is the hope that we see when
Speaker 5: we see, especially young people in the criminal justice system.
Speaker 4: Actually turn their lives around. Yeah.
Speaker 5: You know, a lot of us go out to remote communities,
Speaker 5: we go out to water, we go out to Gombologna.
Speaker 4: And we see these beautiful kids.
Speaker 5: We hear their beautiful stories, and they might have had
Speaker 5: an incredibly difficult upbringing and they've seen all sorts of
Speaker 5: things that none of us could even imagine. And yes
Speaker 5: they've gotten into trouble, and yes they've made some bad decisions,
Speaker 5: but over the one two or three years that you
Speaker 5: spend with them, you see such positive changes, you know,
Speaker 5: whether they've gotten a job, or whether they've taken up
Speaker 5: a sport, whether they've come into dull and realized that
Speaker 5: there are opportunities for them that they want to take on.
Speaker 5: There are so many beautiful stories of hope and positivity
Speaker 5: out there, and it's really easy to be all doom
Speaker 5: and gloom sometimes and talk about all the problems, but
Speaker 5: they are committed lawyers and interpreters and psychologists and practitioners
Speaker 5: and social workers that are doing everything they can despite
Speaker 5: the current climate to make sure that especially young people
Speaker 5: have every single opportunity to thrive. And that is something
Speaker 5: we can all hold onto.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great that's a great way to win
Speaker 2: this and it is inspiring when you see the winds.
Speaker 2: It's not all about gloom and doerm and people cycling
Speaker 2: in and out of prison. There are some great stories.
Speaker 1: So thank you, Abby, Thanks Abby, Thanks so much. Well. Greg.
Speaker 1: There's a lot to talk about in the Northern Territory,
Speaker 1: and I think we ought to resolve now that we're
Speaker 1: going to keep talking about these issues as the podcast
Speaker 1: goes on and develops, because everybody in the country, not
Speaker 1: just in the Northern Territory, everybody in the country ought
Speaker 1: to be interested in this, and they ought to be
Speaker 1: interested in the deprivation that Indigenous people have to undergo
Speaker 1: through in many cases no fault at all of their own.
Speaker 1: And I just, I just, I must say I find
Speaker 1: the tolerance of injustice to Indigenous people, the tolerance of
Speaker 1: it by people, is really repugnant. People just turn their
Speaker 1: backs and somehow or are there something's got to be
Speaker 1: done about this, closing the gap, whatever the measures are,
Speaker 1: we're just letting it happen. And I think it's an
Speaker 1: appalling indictment on us.
Speaker 2: I mean, we saw one government intervene in the Northern territory.
Speaker 2: I think for the wrong reasons. The House back in
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, the Albanezi government could and should
Speaker 2: intervene because, just to explain, territories are more susceptible to
Speaker 2: commonwealth governments intervening because they're not states. And you know,
Speaker 2: it's so bad my observations up here, but also talking
Speaker 2: with Abby and others, it's so bad up here that
Speaker 2: the comwealth aught to intervene. And you can't imagine that
Speaker 2: some of the reformist governments of the past, the Whitlam government,
Speaker 2: Malcolm Fraser who had a great commitment to Aboriginal people.
Speaker 2: You can't imagine that they would have sat by. But
Speaker 2: unfortunately we live in an age of political timidity.
Speaker 1: Oh and in the handsome era where the sort of
Speaker 1: nonsense that comes out of her mouth about Indigenous people
Speaker 1: seems to be getting traction. I mean, it's just appalling.
Speaker 2: And people don't remember this. This started under Howard with
Speaker 2: this term mainstream. We got a mainstream all these Aboriginal programs,
Speaker 2: as though there was no disadvantage. But anyway, well that
Speaker 2: was great, Lex. I think you know one of the
Speaker 2: things we can do with this podcast is get voices
Speaker 2: from outside the axis if you like, of Sydney, Melbourne
Speaker 2: and Camber and because there are some fantastic voices around
Speaker 2: this country well worth hearing and listening to in the
Speaker 2: justice space at the coll face like Abby, but also
Speaker 2: doing some fascinating research in a range of areas that
Speaker 2: you can expect. Our podcast will broadcast at various points
Speaker 2: as we move along on this journey.
Speaker 1: Okay, Greg, thanks Lex, see you next time. This episode
Speaker 1: was produced by Bravecasting Media, edited by Michael Tankard. Original
Speaker 1: music by Justin Humphries from Phoenix Sound Studios. This podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on the lands of the Wrungerie people of
Speaker 1: the Coolan Nation. We pay our respects to their elders, past,
Speaker 1: present and emerging. Thank you for listening, See you next week.