1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the. 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 2: Time poor parent who just once answers now Gooday. This 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 2: is doctor Justin Coilson, Happy twenty twenty three. I've been 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: really enjoying our Happy Families Podcast summer series, especially as 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: we've dived back through all of our old summits and 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: pulled out a whole lot of really valuable conversations with 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: loads of experts talking about all the different things that 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 2: we can do to make our families happier and to 9 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: raise resilient, strong kids. Madonna King joined me for a 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: really important discussion as part of the Misconnection Summit. You 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: can find the Misconnection Summit by the way at Happy 12 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: Families dot com dot au. If you're raising a tween 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: or teengirl, a load of experts to give you heaps 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: of fabulous advice for how to raise them well. But 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: in our conversation, I asked Madonna specifically about daddy daughter time, 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 2: and I wanted to know talking about the relationship between 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: dad and daughter. I wanted to talk about the good 18 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: news about when dad is involved, what happens in terms 19 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: of his daughter thriving. 20 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: For the dads listening that idea of creating memories around 21 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: activity and sport is a wonderful example. An afternoon walk, 22 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: a Sunday afternoon bike ride was just stood out. Almost 23 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: one hundred percent of girls who played a sport their 24 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: dad was interested in had this beautiful relationship. Another one 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: was brought up to me by a school principal, a 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: male school principle in New South Wales, and he said 27 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: he'd studied the bond between fathers and daughters in the 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: playground and he saw that those dads who kept quite 29 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: a in your face physical relationship with their daughters, hug them, 30 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: kissed them goodbye, held their hand, touched their shoulder, actually 31 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: got through that tricky adolescent so much better. And my 32 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: last thing about that bond it is girls. When I 33 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: asked thirteen hundred girls about their relationship with dad, one 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: thing that really stood out to me around that age 35 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: of maybe thirteen to sixteen is how dad deals with 36 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: his daughter's developing opinions. So you know, you know from 37 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: your work that a dad can just lift a daughter's 38 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: self belief in herself, give a confidence, teach it to 39 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: prosecute an argument with clarity and conviction and all those things. 40 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: But he can just crush her self confidence in one sentence, 41 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: and that's when she presents her opinion. And it might 42 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: be an opinion she decided at lunchtime at school today. 43 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: She might even be baiting her dad. But if he 44 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: puts her down, not her opinion, she just stops talking, 45 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: she stops telling him what she thinks. She goes to 46 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: school the next day and she says, he doesn't understand me. 47 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: They're so hard in the judgment. But I think my 48 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: advice around that, given to me by wonderful people like 49 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: yourself and other experts, is that our dads should feel 50 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 1: proud that our daughters are trusting them or testing their 51 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: intellectual rigor with their dad, and they can take apart 52 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: the argument, but never their daughter. One principle said to me, 53 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: dads have got to remember they're only ever a dad 54 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: in the lounge room, never a QC. I think that's 55 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 1: very good advice. And you know, you and I might 56 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 1: support labor or liberal or the Greens or whatever over 57 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: because for twenty years we've seen things happen. Our daughters 58 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: are just developing their opinions and they want to know 59 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,119 Speaker 1: whether they work or not. And I think a dad's 60 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: role in not just dismissing his daughter over an opinion, 61 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: particularly on issues like same sex marriage or refugees or 62 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: things that can be tricky for families is a really 63 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: important thing. 64 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: So there are probably about four or five things, Manonna, 65 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: that I want to pull out of what you've just said. 66 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: And this is one of the great things about talking 67 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: with somebody like you, with all this knowledge and so 68 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: many conversations that you've had, so much research that you've done. 69 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: First of all, I think anyone who's listened to what 70 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: you've just said will be inspired to go and do 71 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: something this weekend with their tween or teen daughter. Like 72 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 2: just any mum or dad, any care is going to 73 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: be like, yeah, they need that time. And I love 74 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 2: that you said that. In fact, you've made me want 75 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 2: to go and book a campsite or something just And 76 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 2: I also love the low barriers to entry, Like I 77 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: know you mentioned a few things like horse riding, which 78 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: that's a pretty high barrier to entry. We're probably not 79 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: going to go and do that on the weekend, but 80 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: you can go for a walk, you can go for 81 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: a bike ride, you can go camping, just those really 82 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 2: simple things. Really, One. 83 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: Dad and his daughter loved ac DC. So they started 84 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: a scrap book of just ACDC things and three years 85 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: later they got on a plane from Perth and flew 86 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: to Sydney together, just dad and daughter. And you know, 87 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: they play the music too loud, Mamma get cranky. But 88 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: it was something that built memories between the two of them. 89 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: So stamp collecting is a bit old fashion maybe, but 90 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: things like that where their memories. You know, you said 91 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: moms too, and that's right. But you know, I will 92 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: always remember the day my daughter and I went and 93 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: bought her semi formal dress because often we do that, 94 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: mum and daughter, and I think dads sometimes have to 95 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: look for those memory creating opportunities. 96 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just thinking of We do a lot of 97 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 2: dancing in the kitchen with the music up really loud, 98 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: and we've got a song. It's a Chris Isaac song 99 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: called Blue Hotel, and that's just that's our song and I. 100 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: Want to hear it sing a few buses Blue Hotel. 101 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 2: Now, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going 102 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: to do it, but it's a great song and the 103 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: kids know as soon as I put that song on, 104 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: we're going to have a great night because there's going 105 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: to be dancing in the kitchen. They all line up 106 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: and I swing them around and I bounce up and down. 107 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: And I'm talking about all of. 108 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: Them up to my twenty something year old who's married. 109 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: When that song comes on, we know we're going to 110 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: have a party. So that just I love the idea 111 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: of just having that time. The next thing that you 112 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: mentioned was the importance of sport. And while again not 113 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 2: every parent is going to be into sport, not every 114 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 2: child is going to be into sport, there is once 115 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: again something remarkable that happens when you're willing to sit 116 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 2: on the sideline of a netball court on a cold 117 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 2: winter's morning and Chief order. 118 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right, and you're all right, my 119 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: daughter's aren't sporty. And when I found this research, I 120 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: came home to my husband and I said, look, we've 121 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: got to find You've got to find something to do 122 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: with them. And so with one he started doing you know, 123 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: the park run, but they walk at each Saturday with yather. 124 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: He started pilates and this shows it works. Three weeks 125 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: after the them they go every Monday night to Polartes. 126 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: And three weeks after they started, I turned to my 127 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: then sixteen year old, and I said, Maddie, so what's 128 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: the gods what happened at polartes. I saw her turn 129 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: to my husband wink and say, sorry, Mum, but what 130 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: goes on at pilarts stays a plus. And I think 131 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: it's the idea. Girls think, well, Dad's willing to have 132 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: me as his partner in this. I think it helps 133 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: that it's physical activity, that it's actually I think they 134 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: want to talk to mum sometimes more and we might 135 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: get to that, but I think they like I said 136 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: to girls, what do you want to do with dad? 137 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: And overwhelmingly, whether they're six or eighteen, it's do things. 138 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: I want dad to play with me more. I want 139 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: dad to swim with me, to go on the trampoline 140 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: with me. As seventeen year old said more than anything, 141 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: I want to walk co Coda trail with my dad. 142 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: And so it changes. But almost one hundred percent of 143 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: them who had a dad in their life wanted to 144 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: do something physical wisdom, and I think, you know, kids 145 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: don't lie. So many kids, thirteen hundred girls saying that 146 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: there's something that we can learn from, isn't it. 147 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: Well I'm at a junction here where I want to 148 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: go in two different ways with our conversation. So I'm 149 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: going to come back to the active life idea in 150 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: a moment, but first I want to get all sciencey 151 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: with you. When we look at the scientific evidence, whether 152 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: it's neurological, whether it's psychological, emotional, When we look at 153 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: the data about children and academics or their social life, 154 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: what did you find as you were researching that the 155 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: data showed happens to girls whose dads, whether dad's living 156 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: at home with them or not, when dad is involved 157 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: in their lives. What were the general findings in terms 158 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: of between and teen girls' life outcomes. 159 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: I think they were just more open. And I'll say here, 160 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: I'm not a psychologist, I'm not an educator. I'm a journalist. 161 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: And what I do is go and interview people thirteen 162 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: hundred girls and four hundred dads in this case, and 163 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: I think you know, we're now girls are little there. 164 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: Oh this sounds terribly sexist, but many dads see them 165 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: as their little princess, their little buddy, you know, whether 166 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: they're helping them in the garage or sitting on their 167 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: knee watching the Wiggles. It's this really lovely bond, and 168 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: it's really challenged a bit like an elastic band. Around 169 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: the time of ten, eleven and twelve, when girls see 170 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: that dad, that other families have different rules, that other 171 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: girls have different dads who have different roles in their lives, 172 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: and for the first time, Dad is no longer of 173 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 1: this big superhero. He's vulnerable. He can get the decision wrong, 174 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: he can give them the wrong pocket money, he can 175 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: say the wrong thing. And poor old dads, who I 176 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: think the community just needs to rethink the role of 177 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: dads more broadly. But dads often to help their daughter, 178 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: maybe to make it more comfortable for themselves in sud cases, 179 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: take a step back, and I think if they do 180 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: around that age, it's really hard. I found in the 181 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: research I did for them at fifteen and sixteen to 182 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: develop that close bond. And so I think girls who 183 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: have dad constantly in their lives happily will say, Dad, 184 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: I'm out of tampons, can you get put it on 185 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: the grocery list? Or Dad, i've got period pain. Would 186 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: you go to the chemist for me? You know? And 187 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: dad wrapped around the finger, or get in the car 188 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: and go. But what a delightful, delightful relationship, but also 189 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: how lovely for our girls that they get Dad's take 190 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: on things. You know, justin I ask girls to nominate 191 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: the five adjectives they love most about their dad. And 192 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: there were five adjectives that came up hundreds of times, 193 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: not not dozens of times, and they were They love 194 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: that they are rational, hard working, successful, organized, and calm. 195 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: Now that doesn't mean that Mum's not, but hundreds and 196 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: hundreds of girls told me rational, hard working, successful, organized, 197 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: and calm with the attributes in Dad that they loved. 198 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: And so I think if our daughters have access to that, 199 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: they are going to be able to think more rationally. 200 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: They're going to maybe be calmer. If Dad can role 201 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: model that, they're going to grow up being able to 202 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: talk to boys as well as girls. Their relationships will 203 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: be healthier because Dad is the first person that they 204 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: the first male that they love, and he sets the 205 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: bar on how they can expect to be treated later on. 206 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: And I say to Dad, set that bloody bar as 207 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: high as you like. But if girls see Dad speaking 208 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: down to other women, they learn that they can be 209 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: spoken down to. They believe that's how they will be treated. 210 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 1: And so when you say what do girls get out 211 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: of it? They get the world out of it. Of 212 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: course they need mum. But there are some things that 213 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: I learned that dads can deliver because the evidence shows that, 214 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: and I don't think we encourage that enough. 215 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 2: That's Madonna King. She's the author of Fathers and Daughters, 216 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 2: Being fourteen and l players, a prolific, wonderful writer and 217 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: so insightful. I love talking to Madonna. That was part 218 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 2: of the Misconnection Summit that you can find at Happy 219 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 2: Families dot com dot au. The Happy Families Summer series, 220 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 2: our podcast series Right Through Summer, continues tomorrow when Kylie 221 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: joins me again in the Happy Family's studio. Hey, I 222 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 2: really hope you're enjoying you summer holidays. Can't wait to 223 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 2: join you tomorrow for another podcast episode.