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Speaker 1: When you're twelve years in the same institution, you get

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Speaker 1: very comfortable, and when you take away those foundations, it's

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Speaker 1: like a shot of discomfort that I had not had

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Speaker 1: for a long time.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy how one word can hold so much of

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Speaker 2: your identity. For Dom Price, that word was at Lassian

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Speaker 2: for twelve years. Those two things were fused together. Dom

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Speaker 2: Price worked futurists at a Lassian. He introduced himself that way,

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Speaker 2: other people introduced him that way, and then one day

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Speaker 2: he finally said, out loud, I think it's time for

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Speaker 2: something new. In today's conversation, Dom shares the process of

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Speaker 2: stepping out of a roll that shaped who he was

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Speaker 2: and how he's navigating the uncomfortable feelings of what to

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Speaker 2: do now. If you're navigating any kind of a change

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Speaker 2: right now, perhaps you're questioning who you are without your

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Speaker 2: job title, or sitting in that foggy space before clarity arrives.

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Speaker 2: This episode will give you a language for what you're

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Speaker 2: feeling and some ideas of how to move through it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,

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Speaker 2: and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, Doctor

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Speaker 2: Amantha imber.

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Speaker 1: Dom.

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Speaker 2: It is so great to have you back. I feel

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Speaker 2: like you may hold a record for the podcast guest

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Speaker 2: I've had on the most Yeah, and I don't think

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Speaker 2: you got the memo about having a rainbow bookshelf because

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Speaker 2: you've got one, not rainbow.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm not anywhere near as organized as you.

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Speaker 1: This is my brain versus your brain, Like you are

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Speaker 1: so organized and deliberate. I am all over the shop

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Speaker 1: and I can't find anything.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I'll send you a briefing document after this call

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Speaker 2: to help with your rainbowing. Anyway, I was really keen

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Speaker 2: to chat with you because you have recently made a

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Speaker 2: huge career decision to leave your career home that you

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Speaker 2: were at for I think twelve years in total as

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Speaker 2: the work futurist at Lassian. Can you talk me through

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Speaker 2: what went into that decision and how long was it

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Speaker 2: coming for you.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole lot of things that go into any

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Speaker 1: change like that, right, which is when you're the incumbent

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Speaker 1: and you've been somewhere for so long, there's all these

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Speaker 1: elements of comfort and contentment that are double edged sorts

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Speaker 1: where everything feels fine and then you're like, is it

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Speaker 1: like what do I want? And for me, I think

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Speaker 1: there's a life stage around being forty seven, forty eight

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Speaker 1: soon I've got kids, twin boys that just turned three. Rather,

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Speaker 1: there's needs there, my wife right, our lifestyle, a hold

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Speaker 1: of stuff where I do a regular reflection, and each

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Speaker 1: time I do that reflection, I try and hold myself

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Speaker 1: more more accountable for being honest. And there's a phase

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Speaker 1: in doing that reflection where I was like, I think

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Speaker 1: it might be time for a change. And I didn't

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Speaker 1: know what the change was, but it was time for

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Speaker 1: a change of something. And that's when the brain really

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Speaker 1: starts to ruminate. And I was traveling quite a lot

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Speaker 1: and away from the family, and I was.

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Speaker 3: Feeling bad for that.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole of sort of contributing factors and it

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Speaker 1: just got to a point where I think I realized,

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Speaker 1: and I think probably my wife realized before me, if

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Speaker 1: actually tells me she realized before me, and I think

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Speaker 1: she did. To be fair, that it was time for

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Speaker 1: something new. And something new doesn't mean something bad has happened.

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Speaker 1: It just means it's time for something new. And that

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Speaker 1: felt great as a moment until all the fear and

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Speaker 1: the petrified. But this is who I am, and how

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Speaker 1: I identify and I've got this label and this brand,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I'd always for a long time Don

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Speaker 1: Price worked futurist at LASTI, and they just sort of

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Speaker 1: co joined each other. It was how I introduced myself

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Speaker 1: when I met. It was everything, And even though I

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Speaker 1: was contemplating the removal of one word, it had a

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Speaker 1: huge impact on me to think about how I identified

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Speaker 1: after that and what that meant for me and for

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Speaker 1: the team I left behind and for the work that

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Speaker 1: I did, and what kind of legacy do you want

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Speaker 1: to have and what's this mean going forward? And even

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Speaker 1: what is a job. I've had days and weeks where

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Speaker 1: I sat there going do I want a job? Is

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Speaker 1: it a job that I want? And I even said

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Speaker 1: to my wife through the day, it's like, I am

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Speaker 1: really happy to work when I do good work that

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Speaker 1: I enjoy, I really enjoy it. And we've worked together

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Speaker 1: on stuff where I'm like, when I'm in that zone,

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Speaker 1: like nothing gets in the way. But I was like,

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Speaker 1: that feels different in a world of AI, in a

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Speaker 1: world where I'm really passionate about us connecting more around

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Speaker 1: humanity and society and stuff. I was like, I think

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Speaker 1: I can have a bigger impact doing something else that's similar,

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Speaker 1: and I had to say the words out loud, I'm okay,

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Speaker 1: not knowing what that is. That was the hard bit

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Speaker 1: that they're not know like being honestly like with my

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Speaker 1: close friends and clients going I'm not going anywhere. I've

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Speaker 1: got a job and I'm running to it. It's I

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Speaker 1: want to do something different and I don't know that is.

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Speaker 1: But I need some clarity and headspace. I need some

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Speaker 1: room to wonder and explore to find out what that is.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned a reflection process that you went through and

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Speaker 2: that you go through regularly. Can you talk me through

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Speaker 2: what that looks like and how at the other end

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Speaker 2: it spat out? Okay, time to move on.

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Speaker 1: So I do the five l's every ninety days. So

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Speaker 1: it's looking at me as a human, what have I

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Speaker 1: loved in the last ninety days? What have I longed for?

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Speaker 1: What have I loathed? What have I learnt? And what

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Speaker 1: have I laughed at? And if I looked at my

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Speaker 1: trend lines over a period of time, the loath was

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Speaker 1: a lot of the international travel I was doing. And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the travel itself. I loved that the travel

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Speaker 1: was fun, the work was fun. It was the time

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Speaker 1: away from family and missing key moments with the kids,

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Speaker 1: and also just this sense of guilt that me and

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Speaker 1: my wife are both English living in Australia, leaving her

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Speaker 1: alone with twin boys that have got my energy. That

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Speaker 1: just doesn't seem very Yeah, so the loath became a

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Speaker 1: trend line that didn't actually seem in my control.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of the time the loaths, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'll tweaker and I'll I'm like, I was in a

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Speaker 1: global role from Australia that requires international travel. That wasn't

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Speaker 1: anyone's fault. There's no one to blame for that. That's

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Speaker 1: the role I was in. So if I don't want

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Speaker 1: to do international travel, I can't blame the company or

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Speaker 1: anything else. That's on me to decide how do I

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Speaker 1: go about navigating that. And then the laugh that was reducing, rightly,

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Speaker 1: work was becoming a little bit more serious and a

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Speaker 1: little bit more involved, not in a bad way, but

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, and one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I was longing for was again is Ai has taken

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Speaker 1: off in the last year year and a half. The

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Speaker 1: bits of the job I was enjoying, the most was

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Speaker 1: I had a huge indulgence and advantage where about a

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Speaker 1: third of my role would be spent with it lasting customers,

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Speaker 1: helping them navigate change, and I'd be dropping in parachute

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Speaker 1: in help them a little bit, and then I'd have

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Speaker 1: to parachute out. And I sat there and I did

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Speaker 1: the excise, and I was like, I really enjoy doing that,

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Speaker 1: but I'd love to go a few degrees deeper.

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Speaker 2: You describe your decision making process, and it sounds so

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Speaker 2: obvious and clear, but I know, you know, for myself

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Speaker 2: when I've been in that position and for friends of

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Speaker 2: mine that have gone through that, it's often really foggy

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Speaker 2: until you get that clarity. It reminds me of that book.

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Speaker 2: It's a relationship book, and it's something like too bad

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Speaker 2: to stay, Too Good to Leave or something. It's something

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Speaker 2: like that completely butchered the title, And I think that

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Speaker 2: that feels like a lot of people's experience when they're

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Speaker 2: deciding whether or not to leave a job, particularly if

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Speaker 2: they don't have something clear that they're leaving it full,

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Speaker 2: like another offer, they've been headhunted or whatever. Like, was

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Speaker 2: there a moment where the clarity really came to you?

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Speaker 2: Because I would imagine that there were probably a lot

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Speaker 2: of foggy days in the lead up to that decision.

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Speaker 1: Being brusally honest with you a montha i'd say not yet.

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Speaker 1: It was a twelve year, wonderful relationship where I grew

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Speaker 1: so much. I learned a huge amount. I've got some

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Speaker 1: amazing colleagues, some amazing things. I don't think there's clarity

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Speaker 1: in that kind of decision.

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Speaker 3: I just don't.

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Speaker 1: Maybe other people get that and I can't. I think

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Speaker 1: it's more on balance and instincts and going okay. I

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Speaker 1: think overall I have a sense that I might like

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Speaker 1: there's lots of like nuance. Wasn't that that I might

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Speaker 1: be better off doing other work elsewhere that is more

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Speaker 1: aligned to my passions and my purpose and that might smell,

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Speaker 1: look and feel quite similar to what I used to do,

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Speaker 1: or it might be quite different. The only realization I

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Speaker 1: had was that I wasn't going to work that out

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Speaker 1: whilst I was in the job. So my first step was,

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Speaker 1: how can I do more reflection now to ensure that

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Speaker 1: I take the good lessons from my time those twelve

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Speaker 1: years and keep them. What are the things that I

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Speaker 1: should leave behind? Because there were nuanced to that environment,

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Speaker 1: other way, unique other a point in time or whatever,

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Speaker 1: I want to leave them behind, and what are the

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Speaker 1: new things that I want to do and what does

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Speaker 1: that new mix look like and how can I start

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Speaker 1: playing with that? And that's been an opportunity for reflection

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Speaker 1: but also exploration of what might be not in terms

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Speaker 1: of like looking for a job and job descriptions, but like,

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Speaker 1: what are the opportunities out there in this world of

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Speaker 1: AI transformation and disruption and technology general change and huge

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Speaker 1: disruption in markets and politics and everything else. Like companies

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Speaker 1: are kind of struggling right now. What have I got

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Speaker 1: in my artillery that can help them be one degree better?

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Speaker 1: And where might I do that? And so it's a

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Speaker 1: mix of reflect but project it into the future and

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Speaker 1: just doing that, trying to do that almost every single day.

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Speaker 2: I would imagine that one of the hardest things about

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Speaker 2: leaving at Lassian. And I mean, you know, when I

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Speaker 2: think about people that are well known for being associated

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Speaker 2: with a well known brand like you, you would be

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Speaker 2: one of the top ones. Don When I think of you,

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Speaker 2: I think of it Lassian, and I imagine for you

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Speaker 2: that's very internalized. What did that process or what has

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Speaker 2: that process looked like for the last few months of

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Speaker 2: teasing that apart and working out who is dom If

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Speaker 2: he's not dumb price work futurist at Lassian.

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Speaker 1: I'd say this, but it's many dark moments as that

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Speaker 1: have light, right, because when you lose that kind of identity,

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh, I have nothing without that, I don't

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Speaker 1: exist like is is It was a cloud that's now

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Speaker 1: gone and it's just sky.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: There's quite weird moments when, even though it's a singular

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Speaker 1: word or a singular thing, it feels like everything right.

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Speaker 1: It feels like the rapper around your whole identity and

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Speaker 1: that rapp has gone now, so you feel completely exposed.

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Speaker 3: Right, So there's elements of that.

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Speaker 1: You then come on a different oscillation where you're like, well,

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Speaker 1: now I'm not working for an organization.

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Speaker 3: What opportunities does that give me? Right?

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Speaker 1: That is there more freedom and with freedom comes opportunities

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Speaker 1: in space and you get all excited again. And then

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Speaker 1: you get excited and then you're like, ah, a lot

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Speaker 1: of space, a lot of blank space, a lot of

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Speaker 1: white space.

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Speaker 3: What is it I'm meant to do with is?

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Speaker 1: Because for the previous twelve years there was some level

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Speaker 1: of structure around, so something there's no structures. It's not

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Speaker 1: just the title that you miss, it's the structure of

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Speaker 1: the role, the people. It's wakened in the morning and

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Speaker 1: being inundated with Slack messages and the adrenaline kick that

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Speaker 1: gives you feeling important. And then you wake up one

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Speaker 1: day and you're like, Slack's empty now me, and you

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Speaker 1: know that slack being empty is not a bad thing,

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Speaker 1: apart from when it really hurts your ego and you're like,

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Speaker 1: no one wanted me overnight. Apparently all I did was

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Speaker 1: sleep and nothing happened that needed me. So like emotionally

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Speaker 1: and ego wise and connection and purpose, all those things

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Speaker 1: have gone through a real mix in a healthy way.

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Speaker 1: Like I think I've been very uncomfortable the last probably

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Speaker 1: eight twelve weeks in various moments, but dealing with that discomfort,

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Speaker 1: I think it's been really healthy to go, Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: just sit with that for a bit, just marinaid. Let's

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Speaker 1: not reconcile or defend or do anything. Just sit with

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Speaker 1: it for a bit and understand what that means and therefore,

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Speaker 1: what can I do now or in the future to

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Speaker 1: be different to that like, do I want to be

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Speaker 1: associated with a brand again?

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Speaker 3: Do I need that?

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Speaker 1: Or can I put my big boy pants on and

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Speaker 1: do some of this by myself? And how much of

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Speaker 1: it was me versus like and it's not about attribution,

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Speaker 1: it's just like, have I got the confidence that where

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Speaker 1: with all the competence the ability to go and do

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Speaker 1: this myself? Or do I need that packing or is

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Speaker 1: that backing just really good arm around the shoulder and

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Speaker 1: moral support that said go for it, mate, We've got you.

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Speaker 1: When you're twelve years in the same institution, you get

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Speaker 1: very comfortable and when you take away those foundations, it's

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Speaker 1: like a shot of discomfort.

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Speaker 3: That I'd not had for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Right, I just bottled it up and probably needed Maybe

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Speaker 1: I needed that job to be like WHOA.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Like I need to do something different now.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to know you, like, what are some rituals

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Speaker 2: or strategies or even conversations that you've had, like within

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Speaker 2: your friendship circles that have helped you get better at

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Speaker 2: sitting in that place of discomfort and kind of move

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Speaker 2: through that.

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Speaker 1: What is to not overly focus? So I'd say in

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Speaker 1: the first few weeks post leaving. It was almost like

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Speaker 1: a daily conversation or like every other day, and that

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Speaker 1: became too much. You know, what if why? And you're like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, that got that sends me down the wrong

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Speaker 1: angle versus going okay, there's an amount of time I

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Speaker 1: want to carve out for a reflection, There's an amount

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Speaker 1: of time I want to carve out for future discussion,

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Speaker 1: and then there's a whole the time that I want

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Speaker 1: to dedicate to building a new identity, which right now

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Speaker 1: involves my three year old twin boys starting preschool two

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Speaker 1: days a week. That was a massive transition for them.

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Speaker 1: They'd been wholly looked after by my wife up until then.

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Speaker 3: I can just be a.

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Speaker 1: Good dad and a good husband for a while. That's

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Speaker 1: not a bad identity. But I won't do that if

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Speaker 1: I wake up every morning going hmm, what to ruminate

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Speaker 1: about it? So actually having focus right, and I said

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Speaker 1: my wife, I need focus, I need things to do.

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Speaker 1: And what it meant was because I was doing things

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Speaker 1: and moving things forward. When i'd stopped doing those, that's

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Speaker 1: the time to go, hey, Amantha, you're a good mate.

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Speaker 1: Here's where I'm at. I'm reflecting on this. I've got

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Speaker 1: this crazy idea, spitball it with me. So essentially, I

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Speaker 1: would say for the last twelve weeks, I've been building

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Speaker 1: quite an abstract jigsaw of reflection of the past and

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Speaker 1: feedback from people and how I feel in the moment

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Speaker 1: and my new roles as a dad and as a

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Speaker 1: parent and as a husband and all this other stuff,

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Speaker 1: and then what these future bits of the puzzle and

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Speaker 1: what might that look like, and how okay am I

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Speaker 1: with that? Not having defined edges because there's not a

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Speaker 1: finished puzzle to look at that tells me that I'm finished,

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Speaker 1: So I'm actually creating the puzzle at the same time,

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Speaker 1: and I think I've I've had to learn to get

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Speaker 1: more comfortable with that and use my friend, my really

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Speaker 1: trusted friends, colleagues, whatever you want to call them, to

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Speaker 1: go hey honest. With an example, I met a mate

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Speaker 1: for a coffee the day. I'm talking through some stuff

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Speaker 1: and he just said, He's like, look me in the eye,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, dom, why are you looking for the job?

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Speaker 1: Why not just look for a job? I was like, what,

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Speaker 1: And he's like, he sounds like you're trying to perfect

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Speaker 1: the puzzle you're looking through. The perfect job doesn't exist.

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Speaker 1: Just find a job and go and play with it.

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, but it takes a really good

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Speaker 1: friend just to cut through the noise in your head

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Speaker 1: and go why are you doing that?

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Speaker 3: And you're like, I actually don't know why I'm doing

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Speaker 3: that and all, but like what's my alternative?

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Speaker 1: And they give you the alternative and you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll give that a try. Like I'm in a mode

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Speaker 1: of I'll give it a and if it works great,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't, it's okay. I'm not taking the company on anything.

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Speaker 1: I'm not taking the mortgage and putting all on stocks

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Speaker 1: and shas like I feel like I'm playing around the

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Speaker 1: ages and that exploration with good friends and good people.

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Speaker 2: I can so relate to that. It takes me back

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Speaker 2: eighteen years ago when I was working at Leo Bennett

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Speaker 2: as a senior brand strategist there a consumer psychologist, and

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Speaker 2: I knew I wanted to leave the advertising industry. As

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Speaker 2: much as I'd loved my time at Leo Burnett and

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Speaker 2: love my job, but I felt like I'd hit an

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Speaker 2: expiry date. And I remember several of those conversations with

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Speaker 2: my friends where I was applying for jobs and I

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Speaker 2: couldn't find anything that I really wanted. There was one job,

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Speaker 2: but they didn't want me, and then I end the

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Speaker 2: whole other story. And then I remember one friend just said, well,

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Speaker 2: why don't you just do like try something on your own,

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Speaker 2: just and create your own company that you want to

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Speaker 2: work for. And I just thought that was such a

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Speaker 2: crazy idea. But I don't think I would have even

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Speaker 2: entertained that as a thought. I think I was twenty

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Speaker 2: eight or twenty nine at the time. Had someone not

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Speaker 2: planted that, had I not got that external stimulus, if.

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Speaker 1: You just think about the psychology of but it kind

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Speaker 1: of makes sense, like I've built a structure around me

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Speaker 1: that has enabled me to thrive for twelve years at Lassian.

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Speaker 1: When I stopped working at Lassian, that structure was kind

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Speaker 1: of still there. It felt like it was. So you

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Speaker 1: think you're operating within that structure, and then day by

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Speaker 1: day you're like, no, I've made up that structure. It's

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Speaker 1: actually no longer there. So it's an active choice I'm

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Speaker 1: making do I want to keep parts of that structure

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Speaker 1: or not. And the structure that you gave up was

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Speaker 1: I need to be employed by someone else, right, that

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Speaker 1: was part of your structure and then you're like, someone's

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Speaker 1: giving me a nudge and it turns out I could

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Speaker 1: employ myself. Like I hadn't thought of that and I

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Speaker 1: was never going to, but why not?

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Speaker 2: Solid it gives right, do you have or have you

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Speaker 2: developed a decision making criteria? Sounds too formal, but some

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Speaker 2: I guess decision making heuristic or ways that are going

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Speaker 2: to guide your next decision because it sounds like you're

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Speaker 2: you're looking for your next workplace or at least people

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Speaker 2: to partner and collaborate with. How have you gone about

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Speaker 2: working out what do you really want now?

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Speaker 1: So the first part was was I looking for a

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Speaker 1: job or a place or people? I was like, oh

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Speaker 1: I go now, selfish, greedy, me goes all of them.

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Speaker 1: And we're like whenever I'm coaching someone, I'm like, when

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Speaker 1: I we're with a great leader and a great culture

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Speaker 1: or great growth or money like what they're like, I

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Speaker 1: want the financial security and.

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Speaker 3: The upside with a great leader and huge growth.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, I don't know myself where they so

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Speaker 1: like anyway, So that was the first decision.

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Speaker 3: What is it?

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Speaker 1: Is it a brand? Is it a size? Is it

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Speaker 1: an industry? Is it the people. One of the big

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Speaker 1: decisions that I had to make early on, and I'm

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Speaker 1: still kind of making, is domestic versus international.

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Speaker 3: The ego side.

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Speaker 1: Of me and the adrenaline and the excitement and the

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Speaker 1: curious side of me goes international.

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Speaker 3: I want to be in a global role.

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Speaker 1: The reality of me goes I really like living in Sydney,

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Speaker 1: and Sydney is really bloody far away from everywhere. So

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Speaker 1: I said to my wife, I said, I really like

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Speaker 1: my kitchen, and she's like, what's that got to do

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Speaker 1: with it? And I said, I really like my kitchen,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think I need a nicer kitchen. So

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Speaker 1: I think, like, income wise, we need enough to pay

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Speaker 1: the mortgage and feed run and pay the bills and

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Speaker 1: whenever else, but I don't need a nicer kitchen.

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Speaker 2: And I should add that you are an excellent cook,

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Speaker 2: because I've seen many of your meals on instat I.

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Speaker 3: Work within my limited skills.

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Speaker 1: But it is this moment of going if I don't

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Speaker 1: need a nicer kitchen, then what dream am I chasing?

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Speaker 1: So the first decision was it's probably more likely domestic

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Speaker 1: and less likely international, but it's probably more likely smaller

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Speaker 1: than it is larger, it's probably more likely growing than

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Speaker 1: it is static or struggle. And so I've done them

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Speaker 1: more and over, and then quite early on I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I need.

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Speaker 3: To be around people some amount of the time. You know.

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Speaker 1: One of the wonderful policies and structures that at last

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Speaker 1: in around team anywhere, right, the ability to work from

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Speaker 1: anywhere has had huge benefits for me as a.

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Speaker 3: New dad, right, and a husband and whatever else.

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Speaker 1: But also I'm a grade day extra for so me

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Speaker 1: sat in this office on a daily basis having zoom

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Speaker 1: meetings or watching these that's not a healthy version of me.

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Speaker 1: I need to be around people. So I was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: So it's been again a game with just going what's

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Speaker 1: it more and less of? And then I think the

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Speaker 1: best part of the decision making criteria that I feel

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Speaker 1: very slightly indulgent for and very fortunate to have is.

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Speaker 3: The ability to play.

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Speaker 1: So essentially, I sat down, I looked at my network

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Speaker 1: of people that I know, and I'm like, Okay, instead

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Speaker 1: of applying for a job or guessing what a company

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Speaker 1: might be like, how can I use my brand and

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Speaker 1: my connections to open doors where I get to go

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Speaker 1: and play with those companies? And essentially try before you buy.

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Speaker 1: So there's a whole of organizations that I get to

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Speaker 1: try before I buy. And so each of these leaders

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Speaker 1: that I'm working with, I'm like, tell me how your

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Speaker 1: business model works, who's your competition? Who were you competitions

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Speaker 1: that aren't anymore? Who might be next?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 1: How my technology not even AI? How my technology changing

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Speaker 1: business model? Or how you engage with your customers? Are

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Speaker 1: you like your staff? And I'm just curious about the

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Speaker 1: companies that are, like, here's the challenges that we've got, Like,

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Speaker 1: let's play. So that playfulness actually means I don't have

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Speaker 1: to make any decisions, or it means I get slightly

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Speaker 1: better insight before I make a decision. So I'm using

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Speaker 1: that to my advantage.

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Speaker 2: Coming up next, Dom and I talk about change. Dom

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Speaker 2: shares with me how he sees leaders coping, or rather struggling,

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Speaker 2: with the tidal wave of change hitting organizations right now,

436
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Speaker 2: and he talks about the three patterns he's seeing in boardrooms,

437
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 2: why so many leaders are clinging to old experience, and

438
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 2: how some even trying to just wait out AI. We

439
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 2: also dig into what real productivity looks like, why human

440
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,119
Speaker 2: systems are breaking, and the surprising traps teams are falling

441
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 2: into when AI actually does free up their time. If

442
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 2: you're looking for more to improve the way you work

443
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 2: can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains

444
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,439
Speaker 2: tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can

445
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 2: sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha

446
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 2: dot com. Dom you are and have been like in

447
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 2: the boardrooms of so many different organizations, helping so many

448
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 2: different leaders. Like previously through the lens of it lassion,

449
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 2: but now as DOM price like something I am finding

450
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 2: a lot of. In fact, I can't think of a

451
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 2: conversation where this hasn't come up with Inventium's clients in

452
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 2: terms of just how much change is going on, particularly

453
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 2: with what AI is doing to workplaces and doing to culture,

454
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 2: and how do we navigate that better? And I would

455
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 2: love to know where do you see leadership teams really

456
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 2: getting it wrong when they're trying to drive change and transformation.

457
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 1: I want to start by saying I have huge sympathy

458
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 1: and empathy for leaders right now. I think they're going

459
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 1: through a lot right just the inherent uncertainty around politics

460
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 1: and tariffs and wars and supply chains and technology and

461
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 1: people and generations in the workforce and the amount of

462
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: legislation being thrown at them. You can ask for people

463
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 1: to come back into work, No, you can't. They're have

464
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 1: a right to disconnect, and they can't disconnect. There's just

465
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 1: a lot for them to deal with, right, So I

466
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 1: don't deal with many leaders that have bad intent, But

467
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: I'm working with a lot of ladies were just struggling

468
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: and a couple of mistakes that they make, right. So

469
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 1: one is I think a lot of leaders that have

470
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: got tenure were sold a story that if through tenure

471
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: you'd get to a position and then you could rely

472
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 1: on your experience to maintain power in that position. And

473
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: then me, you and every other thought leader on LinkedIn's

474
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: come along and gone sorry, mate, not true. So actually

475
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: you need to reinvent yourself and like, no, that wasn't

476
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: on the memo. The memo was I've done thirty five years,

477
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: I've got the parking space, I've got the desk, I've

478
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: got the EA now so I'm it, And you're like, no, actually,

479
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 1: highly irrelevant. None of those skills are useful anymore. It's

480
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: completely reinvent how you lead, Like help me out here and.

481
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:02,919
Speaker 3: I think some of them.

482
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: There's a co hole that I've been working with that

483
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 1: actually genuinely believe they can outlast AI. Right, I've heard

484
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: it out of someone's mouth. They were like, what I reckon,

485
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 1: I've got four maybe five years left. If I just

486
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 1: bunker down, don't annoy anyone, doem my thing. I might

487
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 1: get moved around a few times. I'm not going to

488
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: get fired, so I'm not going to piss anyone off.

489
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: You're going to hang around. I'm not going to offend

490
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 1: or celebrate anything. I'm just going to hang around, take

491
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: my money and go.

492
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 3: I'm done.

493
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 2: Right, where do I hire one of those people? Oh

494
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 2: my god?

495
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: Actually I did a workshop and there is twelve people

496
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: in the workshop. Four of them admitted that that was

497
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: then that was their persona. They're like, I'm just waiting

498
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: this out. I'm not investing in change.

499
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 3: I'm done.

500
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: And look, I do totally get that from a human

501
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 2: point of view, and to.

502
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 3: Be fair, I applauded them for their honesty.

503
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 1: I'm like, at least, at least you're not in denial,

504
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: like I don't like what you're doing, but you're owning

505
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 1: it totally. There's then another co hole that have gone.

506
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: We've done three transformations in the last fifteen years. We

507
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: did an agile transformation, culture transfer, and ad digital transformation.

508
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: They say, we don't feel transformed. We spend sixty million

509
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: we did through transformations. So is it Have I been

510
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 1: trained that the way to do this is to hire

511
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: a set of consultants, give them twenty million dollars and

512
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: get them to paint a picture of my AI future.

513
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: And I'm like, please don't, please don't outsource this, Please

514
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: don't make this a report, don't make this an initiative

515
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,239
Speaker 1: or a program. Like it's more systemic than that. And

516
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: so they're struggling because they're like, who do I give

517
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: them money to you to come and do this for me?

518
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: And then the third cowhor have just not understood the

519
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: size of the price. There's an example from financial services.

520
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: There's a guy I've been working with that is completely

521
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: overhauled his entire business in how they operate through the

522
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: lens of AI. It's like, I'm going to reinvent the

523
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: business through a lens of AI. So they've got bricks

524
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: and mortar, they've got a normal kind of Internet, right,

525
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: you interact, I respond kind of business and they've gone

526
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: AI agentic workforce where it's basically working for you in

527
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 1: the background and doing all things, so you don't apply

528
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: for a mortgage more. It just comes and tells you

529
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: that it can get a better mortgage for you, applies

530
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: to you, send you to the document.

531
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 3: Like. So he's got and done that.

532
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: And I went with him to a few of the

533
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: other financial institutions to show them and they were like, Oh,

534
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: our plan for AI is to we're going to roll

535
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: it out in our call center to reduce call times. Right,

536
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: So it's not And I've got again nothing against those people.

537
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: They've not understood this power that's their fingertips. So they're

538
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: looking at all their existing problems saying, how can I

539
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: make these problems slightly less bad using expensive technology versus

540
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: going hang on separate. I've got problems, let's part those.

541
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: What might my world look like for my customers, stakeholders,

542
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: me in this world of technology? How did I paint

543
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: a picture of what that looks like? And how did

544
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: I start building that today? So I don't know if

545
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: that's lack of ambition or just lack of foresight, but

546
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: I think there's those three cohorts in place and they

547
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: all just come down to a point of anchor. Whichever

548
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 1: one of those you're struggling with, you go, here's my anchor.

549
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to dock. I'm going to sit here and

550
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to wait this out, either through denial, through

551
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to outsource it to someone else, or it's

552
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: just a call center thing. It'll be fine, we'll get

553
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 1: some efficiencies and we'll move on. And you're like, it's

554
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: not a call center thing. It's a fundamental change in

555
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: how we work.

556
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 2: How about the human side of actually helping the humans

557
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 2: change and adjust their mindset. I know we come across

558
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: all sorts at Inventium, and I think like, unlike other

559
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 2: digital transformations, there's just there's so much more fea here.

560
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 2: And you know it's legitimate as well.

561
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: We've already been sensing this for a while, which is

562
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: the nature of the change of AI is basically taking

563
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: what used to be computer programming or intelligent technology work

564
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: that was limited to people with software engineering degrees and saying, actually,

565
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: now it's just humanly accessible by all knowledge workers. You're like, oh,

566
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: that's a fundamental difference in accessibility. You're and here's the

567
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: power of it. You don't need an operator. You don't

568
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: need a person to roll it out or manage it

569
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: or trade like. It's just there, has ubiquitous and as

570
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: you use it, it gets more intelligent and you get

571
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: more intality.

572
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 3: Like, okay, this has changed all the rules of the game.

573
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 1: So essentially what I think has been happening for most

574
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: of the last year and a half boards, certainly in

575
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: the enterprises boards, senior leaders have gone to their IT

576
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: person and gone, it's.

577
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 3: Another IT thing.

578
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: How much do you need for this AI And they're

579
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: like forty mil And they go and buy a few

580
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: tools and.

581
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 3: They roll them out and they're like, there you go.

582
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 3: We've rolled them out.

583
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: But no one, no one has upgraded the human system

584
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: of how the organization actually works. And so they've given

585
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: my mother in law a Ferrari. Right, It's like it's

586
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: not a good combination. She wants to toodle down the road,

587
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: she wants to look around, she doesn't want to go fast.

588
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 3: But you've given all.

589
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: These people who are just in this mire of work

590
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: something super powerful but not enabled or activated them. The

591
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: challenge I gave a CEO the other week was I

592
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: think you've invested heavily in technology systems integration. You've got

593
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: the best of breed of all the things. I don't

594
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: think you've invested out heavily in your human system integration.

595
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 3: So the two are at odds.

596
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: And so once we've got on a whiteboard in person,

597
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: right high fidelity on a whiteboard, we basically landed on

598
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: a few things that made up their human operating system

599
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: that needed an upgrade. And some of them were close,

600
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: they needed a nudge or a tweak. Others He was like,

601
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 1: that's probably five or ten years old. That's the way

602
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: we've used to do it, So let's not upgrade that.

603
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: Let's swap that out and find the new version. So

604
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: I'm working with them as an advisory capacity to go,

605
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: how do you build the best version of your organization.

606
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: Don't go look at Spotify, don't go and look at

607
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: Google or Meta, don't go and copy anyone else. Be

608
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: the best version of yourself in your industry for your

609
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: people and your customers, and you'll be fine. You'll be

610
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: relevant for it for a long time.

611
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: What are some of the other big problems that you

612
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 2: are seeing out there, like with the human side of

613
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: these tech transformations.

614
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: To the two really like quite funny. Human traits that

615
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: I'm seeing kind of on repeat. And that's why I

616
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: like them. Right, It's just it just shows the fragility

617
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: of us as humans. Right, there's an orgization I was

618
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: working with early this year. They did that very clever

619
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: ab test with their AI. Half their team's got AI,

620
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: the other half didn't because they wanted to see the comparison.

621
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: I love it, and the CEO is great. It's like,

622
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: I want to know the real impact. If I roll

623
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: it out to everyone, I'll never know the real impact.

624
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: I'm like, now, ab test, go for it. So ran

625
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: them side by side for a period of time. The

626
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: vendor came back with a report that the team that

627
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: was using AI was thirty five percent more productive.

628
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: Right, So he.

629
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: Rings me on a Friday afternoon. He's like, this is amazing, Right,

630
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: it's performance review season. I'm going straight to the CEO.

631
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to go straight to the board. Thirty five

632
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: percent productivity. I'm going to get my budget approved.

633
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 3: Roll this out.

634
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: And I'm like, before you do, can you tell me

635
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: or go and check just double click where did that

636
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: end up? Because I don't care what you saved, I

637
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: care what you did with it. And he's like, good question.

638
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: I'll come back to it on the Sunday. Comman's like,

639
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: not going to the CEO, not going to the board.

640
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: So the team that had had the thirty five percent

641
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: productivity improvement had a fifty percent increase in meetings, and

642
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: when he asked them, he just want to speak to

643
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: a few people. He's like, no, one's in trouble. What happened?

644
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: And they're like, well, we save the time. We didn't

645
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: know the next best thing to do. If you save me,

646
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: if you go down, here's this magic tool says you

647
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: ten hours a week. I'm like, cool, what do I

648
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: do those ten hours? I've never had those ten hours before.

649
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: You've never gifted me that much time. So so we

650
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: do the first thing in front of us. We're like,

651
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: we'll meet, we'll have an intellectual joust, we'll make no decisions,

652
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: we'll have a great debate, will take no minutes. So

653
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: we do a lower cost think right, And so all

654
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: the stats.

655
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 3: Every time I'm on any.

656
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: Portal LinkedIn wherever else and I see someone claim AI

657
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: delivers x percent productivity, I genuinely do not care.

658
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 3: I'm like, how did you reinvest that? This one goes?

659
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: I can use AI to save time, so we all

660
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: learn it with a better mental health state. Brilliant, Like

661
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: I'd get behind that, but just saving time, I don't

662
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: know what that even meants.

663
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 2: It can be dangerous in terms of how some companies

664
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: measure productivity. Like I look at something like how easy

665
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: it is to generate let's say, a ten page strategy report,

666
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: which if they're using AI and they're using it poorly,

667
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: it's going to be AI slop or work slop or

668
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: you know whatever we're calling it. And then that's going

669
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: to land in someone's inbox and they're either going to

670
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: read through the whole thing and waste hours of their afternoon,

671
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: or they're going to feed it into AI and get

672
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: AI to summarize it, and it is probably going to

673
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 2: come back with different dot points to the ones that

674
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: the original person inputed. And while that might seem productive

675
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: because oh my gosh, they've produced a strategy report in

676
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: ten minutes, they've actually wasted a whole lot of other

677
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: people's time. So I think it's really complex how to

678
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: measure productivity. Tell me, like, how do you think about,

679
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: like what does a good productivity boost actually look?

680
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: Like?

681
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: I violently agree with you, Like this whole like the

682
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: temptation of theits, and there's a whole of theats have

683
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: been creative. I do the bullet points AI long pro

684
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: Some write a bullet post like it's a whole merry dance,

685
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: and You're like, the real question is what message was

686
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: I trying to convey to you?

687
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 3: Did you receive it? And did you understand it? It's

688
00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 3: a very different measure of success.

689
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: Then I broadcast out to one thousand people, You're like,

690
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: goot a nine hundred and ninety out of them open

691
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: the email.

692
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 3: Okay, did anything understand it? I don't care?

693
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: Right So, I think there's there's a metal level point

694
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: you made at the start that question, which I think

695
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: is crucial for us to anchor on right now, what

696
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: are we measuring. There's someone who I'm mentoring right now

697
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: and they confessed to me that in their performance review

698
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: that said that one of their metrics was invoice payments

699
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: and there's a ninety six percent success rate on invoices paid.

700
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: And their boss was like, oh my god, that's amazing.

701
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: It's so much better than this had to be before.

702
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: And I did it.

703
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: But like, here's a gold star on a trophy and

704
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: to pay right. Awesome.

705
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: What they did was they included not dollar invoices because

706
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: this company has a free service. So what they did

707
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: was everyone who has a free service gets an invoice

708
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: that is automatically paid free. Ninety six percent rocked it

709
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: out of the park, right, So let's just admit we're

710
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: all clever enough to fudge the numbers if we want to.

711
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: So I think we need a moment to step back

712
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: and go what do we really care about? And I

713
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: don't think it's ever one thing. I would say the

714
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: leaders I'm working with right now have gone very nineteen

715
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: eighties on me and have gone balanced scorecard. And I've

716
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: seen it a lot in the last few months, and

717
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's having a resurgence.

718
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: Right. The spy skills are about together.

719
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: We've got the balanced scorecard because it's not just safety,

720
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: it's on time. And it's not just on time, it's profitable.

721
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: And it's not just profitable. I need a good customer experience.

722
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: And you're like, oh, you're now asking me as a

723
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: leader to look at four different things in trade off

724
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: and you're like, yeah, I think that's what leadership always was.

725
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: So that we've had this weird fetish for the last

726
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: few years since the pandemic of just focusing on productivity,

727
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: not many people having the honest conversation about the consequences

728
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: of that and the trade offs. So with this pursuit

729
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: of productivity, let's say one of the trade offs is

730
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: we've killed mental health. People are working longer to get

731
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,479
Speaker 1: the same work done, and the more stressed is that

732
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: what we wanted If we get a two percent productivity

733
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: improvement and GDP's got up, But like a record number

734
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: of people right now are going to their GP because

735
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: they're struggling with mental health and burnout, that's not the

736
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: equation we want. So I think it's this step back

737
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: and go what do we care about? And I think

738
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: we care about the wellness of our people.

739
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 3: We have to right.

740
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: For most of the businesses I work with, their biggest

741
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: asset is still their people. Like invest in them like

742
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: you would plant a machinery, Take fifteen percent of your

743
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: budget and renew them and do preventative maintenance and.

744
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 3: Look after them so that they can be the best

745
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 3: vision of themselves.

746
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: Don't wait for them to get burnout and go, oh,

747
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: we've got an EAP or a phone number you can

748
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: call orders an app right, that's not wellness. I think

749
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: wellness is in there. I think relevance. And there's a

750
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 1: business I've been working with recently and I don't quite

751
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: know how they're measuring it, and there's a bit of

752
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: Unicorn magic in it. But as a leadership team, they

753
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: ask themselves the question are we still relevant?

754
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 3: And relevant is.

755
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: To our customers because they're evolving, to our stakeholders, to

756
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: our suppliers in our ecosystem, and to our teams, to

757
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: our people. So like brand attraction, do people want to

758
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: work with us? Like if we are seen as dull

759
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: and not innovative, then we want to attract the best

760
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: people that will affect our products, that will affect our market.

761
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: So they've kind of understood the system again and gone,

762
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: we need to be relevant. To be relevant, we need

763
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: high learning velocity. So how do we build constant learning

764
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: and learning loops into everything that we do? And I'm like, sure,

765
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if it will work or not, but

766
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: it's a good experiment to go. That feels better than

767
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: saying we were thirty percent more productive and you're like,

768
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: but we did the wrong We were doing something that

769
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: wasn't valuable. We did it fast, but it was crap.

770
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: So I think my guess is we're all going to

771
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: end up with some form of balanced scorecard where we

772
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: go Actually, if we're honest, I want ABC and D.

773
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: And what I need to do as a leader is

774
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: to understand if I turn the dial upon A if

775
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: I'm running a project and I'm like, this has got

776
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: to be safe, but it's late and over budget, is

777
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: that I win?

778
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: And where would I dial it on safe to go?

779
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: It's safe enough and I can still deliver it on

780
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: time and with great experience, Like I think we need

781
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:49,240
Speaker 1: to understand those.

782
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 3: Dials and how they interact.

783
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: That is modern leadership that I think we've avoided by

784
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: this theater of productivity, which I don't actually think pays

785
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: a dividend.

786
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more now. I don't often end with like

787
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: one of those annoying pippy podcast host questions of like

788
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: if leaders could do just one thing, But I am

789
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: actually interested in what you would say, Like, you know,

790
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 2: you've worked with so many different leaders and have done

791
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: you know over the last decade, if you could give

792
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: leaders listening just one piece of advice, something to do differently,

793
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: what would that be done?

794
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 3: Right now?

795
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: The biggest success I'm seeing in leaders is the ones

796
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: that are literally not mesophorically rolling their sleeves up, getting

797
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: with their team, not doing it to them or for

798
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: them doing it with them, and saying, let's give this

799
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: a red hot go and by the way, I don't know.

800
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: And when I see that, I'm like, we're good, We're fine,

801
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: because you actually don't know. So there's a person in

802
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: another room going, I know, and you're like, don't you

803
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: don't know.

804
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 3: None of us know.

805
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: Stop pretending you know. You're a clown, you're a full

806
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 1: The ones that go, you know what, I don't know, but.

807
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 3: I have a plan.

808
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: I've got a framework or a model, and I think

809
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: I believe that we, the collective team here can work

810
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: through this together. So let's explore, let's experiment, let's do that,

811
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: and then if you want to go like a grade.

812
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: The ones that are doing that that, I'm like, Wow,

813
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 1: you're naming it and then telling the story.

814
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 3: And I'm seeing a.

815
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: New superpower in modern leaders around storytelling. The ones that

816
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: can stand up and authentically say here's what I do

817
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 1: with my team, here's why I did it, Here's what happened,

818
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: here's what we're doing next, here's what worked, here's what didn't,

819
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: and here's anything any of our assets you can borrow

820
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: to do this yourself. And when they do that genuine storytelling,

821
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: I'm like, I do not care.

822
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: What comes your way.

823
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: You are fine because you've just got this mindset, this resilience.

824
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: Instead of fighting it with firmness, you're responding to it

825
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: with softness and going, that's okay. We can work through

826
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: this with small people. I've got the right team, I've

827
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 1: got the right sool, let's work through this. And it's

828
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: weird that that not weird? What kind of is weird

829
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: that the humility, that down to earthness now seems like

830
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: a superpower. And actually, when I see the chest beating,

831
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: I've got this sca out of my way.

832
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,479
Speaker 3: Just let me do it. I'm like, you don't, because

833
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 3: you will shit.

834
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 1: Something that is in that person's mind and it unfortunately,

835
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: it might work on a one off. It might work,

836
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: and if it does, you're going to give them everything,

837
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: and the next time it won't work if they will

838
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: have just been lucky versus the collective team right and

839
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: the humble leader that is happy to do it, but

840
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: sleeve rolled up, I'm still your leader.

841
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 3: But I'm doing this with you, not to you.

842
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: I love that, Dom, and I've loved our chat. I

843
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 2: love our chats on Mike and off Mike. Thank you

844
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: so much for coming back and being just the most

845
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: wonderful regular guests on How I Will.

846
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: I set myself a goal of appearing every season. It

847
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: just means I need to produce a new content so

848
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: I can be relevant to you.

849
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: Ever see totally Thank you, Tom Thank you. Losing an

850
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: identity can feel like losing the ground under your feet,

851
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 2: but as Dom reminds us, sometimes the most powerful moment

852
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 2: is simply admitting I don't know yet and letting that

853
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 2: be okay. Next time you feel that pool towards change,

854
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: try giving yourself some white space, sit with the disc

855
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 2: comfort before you feel it, and let it tell you

856
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 2: what needs to shift. If you want more on navigating

857
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 2: big transitions and change, go back to my episode with

858
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: Tomorrow Mind author Gabriella Callaman, where we talk about how

859
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 2: to build psychological flexibility to be more fit for any

860
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: change that life throws your way. If you like today's show,

861
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to

862
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: be alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was

863
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 2: recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part

864
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: of the Cooler Nation