1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:02,120 Speaker 1: Here at two Good Sports. 2 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 2: We would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the 3 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 2: land on which we record this podcast. There were inerie people. 4 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 2: This land was never seated, always was always will be. 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Doo good Sports Sports in soul. 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 3: Differently, I'm Georgie Tunnan and I'm maybe gelmy and I'm 7 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 3: still not used to you not sounding friends these But 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 3: how are you, George? 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm tired. I'm frickin tired. 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 3: Georgie was in Sydney last night until midnight and we 11 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 3: record early, so. 12 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: Yes, I forgive me if I'm stuttering a little bit today, 13 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: but I am here. 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 3: You can't be as tired as Jess Fox absolutely somehow 15 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 3: presented a LOGI and then has also been on breakfast 16 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 3: television and seems to have not slept. 17 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: I know the woman. 18 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 2: I actually think maybe that's the key to her goals. 19 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 2: She actually doesn't sleep because she's a different human. 20 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 3: She is the moment, she is in the moment she is, 21 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 3: She's Foxy and she's the moment, which is remarkable that 22 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 3: she's not my good sport, because we are getting into 23 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 3: our good sport bad sport, and George, starting with you, 24 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 3: ah so. 25 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 2: I want to say just a little bit of a 26 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 2: shout out to all the good sports out there, namely 27 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: being the regular football codes that really were able to 28 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: take a. 29 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: Back seat during the Olympics, you know what I. 30 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: Mean, Like it was a two weeks where we were 31 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: living our dreams of the Paris Games and everything that 32 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: went along with that. 33 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: Do I know what happened in the AFL? 34 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 4: No? 35 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: Do I know what happened in the NRL? 36 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 4: No? 37 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: Do I know what's going on in netball? 38 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 4: No? 39 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: So it was great to. 40 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: Come back in and be like, oh my gosh, doing 41 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 2: a little catch up of everything. And I love that 42 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: the sports were just like your Olympics, it's your platform. 43 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: We are now ready to assume house. 44 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 4: I can catch you up on the AFL. 45 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 3: Basically, there's a top eight that they're trying to squeeze 46 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 3: fourteen teams into. 47 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my takeaway, rights everyone's Actually the competition is 48 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: so close that anyone could win anything. 49 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 3: You need a whiteboard and you need a calculator. 50 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: Unpopular opinion. I don't love it. I love having a 51 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: team to beat, Do you know what I mean? If 52 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,919 Speaker 2: everyone is so even and the competition is completely equal, 53 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: you never get upsets, but it has. 54 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 4: Been the most remarkable AFL season truly. 55 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, good sports. We're catching back up, you know. 56 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 3: Oh, you don't want to mention the fact that Cole 57 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 3: Flanagan bitch the. 58 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 4: Face of Stephen Crichton. 59 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 3: If you're talking about a bad sport, the fact that 60 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 3: biting If you just riddle me this in any other workplace, Yeah, 61 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 3: your boss calls you in and goes, Georgie, did you 62 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 3: bite Stephen? 63 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 4: I'm sorry, you lose your job. 64 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: You lose your job, and you're imagining you're not going 65 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 3: to get a reference for your next one. 66 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 4: Oh why did Colin? 67 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he just decided to bite the face of another. 68 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 2: Person, and not just any person, one of the people 69 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: in the NRL that has one of the prettiest faces. 70 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: The best brows in the game. 71 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 2: If you're going to bite some face, don't bite Stephen Crichtons. 72 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: Don't damage anything. 73 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 3: Man, you're going to make any attempt to defend your 74 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 3: code here or am I just going to put on in? 75 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: I don't condone what Carl Flanagan did. There are other 76 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 2: ways that we can handle when someone's all up in grill. Okay, 77 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: of course there are, But Stephen Krant did get up 78 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 2: in his grill. He was on the ground and look, 79 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not condoning it. I'm not condoning it 80 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 2: is excusing. That's something I've seen in League before. Yes, 81 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: what I love to say, I'll never see it again. Yes, 82 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:15,679 Speaker 2: is that possible? 83 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 4: I don't know. 84 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 3: I just can't fathom ever under any circumstances it going 85 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: through my brain to go, oh, blinde him, that's what 86 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 3: I'll do. 87 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: It's not good, it's and he only got four weeks. 88 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: Do you think that's enough? No, Whereas I was like, 89 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: I was like, that's fair. 90 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 3: Fair four weeks, Georgie, I am so entrenched in our 91 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 3: deep dive. 92 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: This week a big one. This is a big one. 93 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 3: I have consumed arguably too much around this topic, and 94 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 3: that it's made me question humanity and the way that 95 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 3: some people approach it. Because we are talking about Amman 96 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 3: Khalif and the absolute storm that overtook not only world 97 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: sport headlines but world headlines during the Paris Games, and 98 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 3: the eligibility and sex testing of athletes and how we 99 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 3: treat them in the process, and that's coming up, Georgie. 100 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 3: There's something so beautiful about the Olympics in that it 101 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 3: genuinely is a representation of people all around the world 102 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 3: coming together. It makes you feel warm and fuzzy. It's 103 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 3: about human perseverance, and particularly when you watch the closing ceremony, 104 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 3: no one's under their individual flags anymore. The athletes from 105 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 3: different cultures, different ethnicities and also different racial backgrounds all 106 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 3: come together and it's an event. And the reason why 107 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: you and I love it is it makes you feel good. 108 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: It's about togetherness total. That was the whole point. 109 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: They talk about the Olympic spirit, and it's about a reunion. 110 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: Of all of these cultures, all of. 111 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: These countries that you don't usually get to hang out with, 112 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: and it's symbolic of the unity. 113 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 4: Of the world. The eyes of the world watching. 114 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 3: And we had so many moments and so many moments 115 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 3: of people of different country bowing down to salute different 116 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 3: athletes and just warm and fuzzies throughout the game. And 117 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 3: yet none of those were the main headlines that came 118 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 3: out of the Paris Games. The story that shook the 119 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 3: international media and made headlines around the world and certainly 120 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: here in Australia, was that of Aman Khalif, a twenty 121 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 3: five year old Algerian female boxer competing in the sixty 122 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 3: six kilogram weight division and the incredible storm around the 123 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 3: questioning of her gender. 124 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: Let's go back to August first, that is when I 125 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: think the world you're right, Jelmy learned the name Emman Khaliff. 126 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: But that wasn't the name they learned first. It was 127 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: her opponent Karini from Italy. And you will remember the 128 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 2: image of a woman on her knees, crying after a 129 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: fight that lasted only forty six seconds, and her saying, 130 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: this is unfair. I have never been hit so hard 131 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 2: in my life. And then from there the world exploded 132 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: because she'd been hit in the face by Imman Khaliff, 133 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 2: her opponent at the Paris Games. And then all of 134 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 2: these questions came up about her eligibility, Imman's eligibility to 135 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 2: be not only competing at the Olympics, to be a 136 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: professional boxer, but also her eligibility to be a woman. 137 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 3: And to be considered a woman, and the misinformation about 138 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: this was rife. Never has social media been more of 139 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 3: assessful for people just not understanding a topic and deciding 140 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 3: to take a very seen stance. 141 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: Something go that fun do you know what I mean, 142 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: Like it was a tinderbote and it was immediate, immediate 143 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 2: that every single person, even on the street that you 144 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: were walking past, was talking about this moment. 145 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 4: And it's perhaps best summarized by JK. 146 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 3: Rowling coming out and essentially tweeting the day of about 147 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 3: why are you comfortable watching a man hit a woman 148 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 3: for entertainment? 149 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: Yep, yep. 150 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 3: So let's go back and give you the context that 151 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 3: we wish everyone had before they made snap judgements on this. 152 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 3: Amman khalif As I said, she's a twenty five year 153 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 3: old boxer from Algeria. She taught herself how to box 154 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 3: to protect herself from boys that were bullying her essentially growing. 155 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: Up, and I think it is key to bring some 156 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 2: context here, even just to her country. Yes, so Algeria 157 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: is I would say, not as progressive as Australia. 158 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: That's very very fair. 159 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: They are not where we are when it comes to 160 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: LGBTQIA plus rights. No, I would say, just in my 161 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: own personal experience, they're not really at gender parody in 162 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: any kind of way, shape or form. I remember I 163 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: went on a trip and I was meeting one of 164 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: with one of my friends who happened to be an 165 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: Algerian sports journalist, a female Algerian sports journalist, And she 166 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: said to me, how do you handle working with footballers 167 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: in your country? How do you get them to respect you? 168 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: And I said, oh, well, usually they show me great 169 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: respect and we have like great conversations. We're treated and 170 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: considered equals. We're treated as and considered as equals. I said, 171 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: is that not the same for you, and she said no. 172 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: I asked one of the football players a question and 173 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: he slapped me across the face because he didn't like 174 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: my publication. So there's sociocultural factors at play when it 175 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: comes to Imman's homeland in general. 176 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,559 Speaker 4: Firstly, when did that conversation happen? 177 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: Oh, that was twenty nineteen, so we're talking very recently. 178 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 3: So we have journalists that can be slapped yes, by 179 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 3: men in the workplace just because they don't like them. 180 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: Yes, and no one blinks. 181 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 3: And and the other thing is Amman khalif we stress 182 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 3: this was born female, has always identified as female, and 183 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 3: so much so that her dad actually didn't want her 184 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 3: boxing because it wasn't a sport that girls undertook. 185 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's very very definite gender roles and gender expectations 186 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: in Algeria. 187 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 3: So she has then taken she loved the sport, fell 188 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: in love with it, and took on the plight of 189 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: wanting to do it so much. So there's stories about 190 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 3: her selling scrap metal in order to make money to 191 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 3: get the ticket to go to the neighboring town where 192 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 3: she had to train. Yes, from there, she then becomes 193 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 3: a professional boxer. And also it must be noted she's 194 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 3: a UNISEF ambassador, so she is someone who has taken 195 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,479 Speaker 3: it upon herself to try to give the best opportunity 196 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 3: for people within the sport. 197 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 4: But she is a professional. 198 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 3: Boxer who has already competed at an Olympic Games before 199 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 3: this all blew up. 200 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: Which I think is key, right, massively key. 201 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 2: No one was mentioning that in the moments after proceeding, 202 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: Like as soon as Karini was on the floor, no 203 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: one was like, oh, hang on a second a month. 204 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 3: In Tokyo and make it through the quarterfinal stage as 205 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 3: her genetic makeup is right now, why is this the 206 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 3: problem right now? And to understand the nuances of this story, 207 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: and believe me when there are there's a lot, there 208 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 3: are layers is to understand the IBA and their role 209 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 3: in this. So the International Boxing Association and the fact 210 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 3: that it was their testing that was used supposedly as 211 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 3: the springboard for all these discussions because Khalif and another 212 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 3: athlete in Lin Juting, the Taiwanese boxer who was also 213 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 3: one gold, it must be said at the Paris Games, 214 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 3: were both disqualified from the World Championships a year prior, 215 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 3: in March of twenty twenty three, for failing gender eligibility tests. 216 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 3: Now this is happening in twenty twenty three, but it 217 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: was in twenty nineteen that the IOC suspended the recognition 218 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 3: of the IBA for a myriad of reasons corruption, basically, 219 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 3: lack of transparency, finances, just dodgy, dodgy things going on, 220 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 3: to the point where the IOC said, nah, you're no 221 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 3: longer our regulators of boxing. We will be the adjudicating 222 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 3: boxing authority for the Olympics, which they were in Tokyo. 223 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 4: Yeah. 224 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 2: Essentially, you know, when like a business is really struggling 225 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: and they go into liquidation and someone has to come 226 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 2: in and they're the new administrators. That's what the IOC 227 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 2: did with the IBA, the Boxing Association, but for like 228 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 2: essentially morally bankrupt reasons. 229 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: Seriously, and the IBA again they disqualified these athletes, not 230 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 3: prior to competition when these tests were first taken, it 231 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 3: was in the latest stages. 232 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 4: She was about to be in. 233 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 3: The gold medal about at the World Championships, and it 234 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 3: has to be said, had beaten a Russian opponent in 235 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 3: the lead ups. And the IBA has very strong connections 236 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: to Russia. And all of this is happening, especially with 237 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 3: the suspension and later disqualification. All of that was happening 238 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 3: in the context of the IOC having massive issues with 239 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 3: Russian competitors having to compete under a neutral flag. The 240 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 3: president of the IBA, which again is now defunct, very 241 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 3: close friends with Putin. Yes, so there are many layers 242 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 3: to this loss. 243 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: Of politics happening behind the scenes. 244 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 3: So the politics is what potentially these two women have 245 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: been the victims of because the IBA come out and 246 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 3: essentially say they disqualified on the grounds of heightened testosterone 247 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 3: levels YEP and having X Y chromosomes. But and my god, 248 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 3: is this important. None of these tests were made public, 249 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 3: were verified. Do we have any idea where these testings 250 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 3: took place? Neither athlete has confirmed that they even undertook 251 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 3: these testings. But this is just what's been said by 252 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 3: people who are very angry at the IOC. 253 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 2: I feel like just to take a moment, dear listener, 254 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: just rewind by ten seconds and listen to that sentence again. 255 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 2: We do not know where these test results are. We've 256 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 2: never seen them, we don't know what's happened, and they 257 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: are coming from a discredited organization. 258 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:40,239 Speaker 3: And people with x Y chromosomes do not represent externally 259 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 3: as male. You can go your whole life and have 260 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 3: x Y chromosomes and have no idea about it. You 261 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 3: present as a woman, you identify as a woman, You've 262 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 3: competed as a woman your entire life. So the thing 263 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 3: that was so harmful about all of this is that 264 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 3: you have people not questioning, but just to asserting that 265 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 3: you are a man on a national scale, on an 266 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 3: international scale, with absolutely no understanding of the nuances of this. 267 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: With nothing. 268 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 2: And I think that Karini so Emman's opponent who said, 269 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: you know, I've never been hit this hard in my life. 270 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 4: Because that's where this all comes to a head. 271 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 2: It came to a head because yes, she pulled out 272 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 2: of that fight immediately. She also gestured x X with 273 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 2: her arms, allegedly referring to the fact of X chromosomes 274 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 2: and being aware of all of this, being aware of 275 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: everything that is happening now also important to note, since 276 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: all of this has happened, Kaarini's come out and said, oh, 277 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: I'm really sorry, I've got it wrong. 278 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: Yes, if I saw Emman again, I would give her 279 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: a hug. 280 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 3: Her quote is I'm so sorry for my opponent. If 281 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: the IOC said that she can fight, I respect that. 282 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 3: It's not what I intended to do. I want to 283 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 3: apologize to her. I was angry because my Olympics had 284 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 3: gone up in smoke. Yeah, too little, too And there 285 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 3: is speculation that she received a very large sum essentially 286 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 3: to come out and retract what she'd said from the IBA. 287 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 3: So this fight happened on the first of August. On 288 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 3: the second of August, there's a statement from the Boxing 289 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 3: Unit and IOC and it starts with and this is 290 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 3: the crux of it. Every person has the right to 291 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 3: practice sport without discrimination. It then goes on to say, 292 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 3: we have seen reports of misleading information about two female 293 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 3: athletes competing at the Olympic Games in Paris twenty twenty four. 294 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 3: These two athletes have been competing in international boxing competitions 295 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 3: for many years in the women's category, including the Olympic 296 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 3: Games in Tokyo, International Boxing Association and World Championships and 297 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 3: IBA sanctioned tournaments. These two athletes were victims of sudden 298 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 3: and arbitrary decisions by the IBA towards the end of 299 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 3: the IBA World Championships in twenty twenty three, where they 300 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 3: were suddenly disqualified without due processes. 301 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 4: So that's the key here. 302 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 3: Process and what is the process during the Olympics or 303 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 3: during sporting competitions in sex testing tells you whether or 304 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 3: not this is a male or a female. And let's 305 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 3: be honest, it isn't black and white Georgia. 306 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: Especially not anymore. I think there's a very strong argument 307 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: that it was never black and white. No, but it's 308 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: now as we have grown up as a society, we've 309 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: learned as a society, as a culture, as an international community. 310 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: You know, things aren't in binaries anymore. There's a whole 311 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: lot of gray. 312 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: So in order to I don't know, there'll be a 313 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 2: lot of traditionalists out there, and this is obviously usually 314 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: their main argument is that you have to preserve the 315 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: integrity of the classifications when it comes to sport, but 316 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: I don't think that that really necessarily holds fair or 317 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: true in a current context. 318 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 3: All the time, and at the center of this storm 319 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: are people with differences of sex developments yes or DSD. 320 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: Yes, which happens. They're just it happens. It happens. They've 321 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: not done any They've. 322 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 3: Not chosen no to take testosterone, they have not altered 323 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: any of their genetic makeup. 324 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 4: Was born this way. 325 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 3: This is who I am, and I happened to be 326 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 3: good at sports, but it is something that definitely came 327 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 3: to the forefront of discussion in world athletics with Carca Semenna, 328 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 3: and she was a gold medalist at two Olympics in 329 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 3: the eight hundred meters, but was someone that from a 330 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 3: very very early age, at just eighteen years old, was 331 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 3: subject to sex testing where they did an internal examination 332 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 3: on her. And it was only through these tests that 333 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 3: she found out that she actually didn't have a uterus 334 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 3: and had testes internally, but externally, her genitalia had always 335 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: represented that as a woman. Yes, so, as she said, 336 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: I was handed to my mum as a daughter. I've 337 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 3: run as a woman my whole life. I am a woman, 338 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 3: and she has been in and out of court for 339 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 3: years arguing for her right to race because she was 340 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: banned in twenty nineteen from competition. 341 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: Yes, it was deemed that her naturally occurring testosterone levels 342 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 2: right were too high to compete at a fair level 343 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: with other women. 344 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 3: So World Athletics in twenty eighteen ounce that basically they 345 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 3: would have testing where you need to have a certain 346 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 3: level of testosterone and if it is higher than that, 347 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 3: it is deemed to be unfair. And those higher levels 348 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 3: of testosterone are naturally occurring in a higher rate of 349 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 3: people that have DSD, So therefore you need to take 350 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 3: medications to bring this down so that it's fair. Of 351 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 3: which Casa semenia is like, I was born with this body. 352 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 3: You're asking me to alter my god given body that's 353 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 3: naturally prone to being athletic in order to compete. How 354 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 3: does that fit in with the model of the world. 355 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 3: But I will read the opening of this and again 356 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 3: we'll have the link in the show notes. But she says, again, 357 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 3: this is in the New York Times in twenty twenty three. 358 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,479 Speaker 3: I know I look like a man. I know I 359 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 3: sound like a man, and maybe even walk like a 360 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 3: man and dress like one too, But I am not 361 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 3: a man. I'm a woman playing sports and having muscles 362 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 3: and a deep voice may make me less feminine. Yes, 363 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 3: I'm a different kind of woman, I know, but I'm 364 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 3: still a woman. And this, my god, plays into a 365 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 3: bit thing, George, doesn't it about the fact that athletic women, 366 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 3: and if you look across the board, and particularly it 367 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 3: has to be said, ethnic athletic women have always had 368 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 3: to deal with this idea of your masculine or you 369 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 3: were a man, if you present athletically. 370 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 2: I think it constantly gets hijacked, right, Yes, this issue 371 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 2: of sex testing, the issue of gender in sports, it 372 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 2: always eventually gets hijacked by what is most clickbaitable. Yes, 373 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: and at the moment, in this current climate of the world, 374 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 2: that is trans athletes competing. That is the subject that 375 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 2: always gets people be like, oh, hang on, I'm going 376 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,479 Speaker 2: to click on that because it's sensational, or I'm going 377 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 2: to click on that because it's salacious, or all of this. 378 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: And once again the trans community is being used as 379 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: a political football. 380 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 3: And also people just didn't had seen headlines and gone, oh, well, 381 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: if she used to be he, she can't be hitting 382 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 3: someone and you're like, well, that's not. 383 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 2: But this is what I mean, right, Because essentially a 384 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: story that was about two female boxes, yes, and a 385 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 2: very very quick fight, right, yes, So one female boxer 386 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 2: defeating another female boxer then became a debate about transinclusion 387 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: in sports when no trans person was in the story. 388 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 2: Not what like I it drives me. It makes me 389 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 2: actually very upset. And that is a whole other issue 390 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 2: about trans athletes and their inclusion in sport and where 391 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: their place is in sport. I'm of the firm belief 392 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: that at the moment, if I was a transperson, why 393 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 2: on earth would I commit to playing sports for my 394 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 2: whole life because the codes have just shown that they 395 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 2: do not want me. 396 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: So that is a whole other discussion for another time. 397 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 2: But for someone like Emman Khalif or Linu Ting, I 398 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 2: just urge everyone to just take a moment right now 399 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 2: and think about the amount of times that you've been 400 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: told you or something that you're not times that by 401 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: a billion, and put it on a global setting and 402 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 2: the injustice you feel in that yeah, where one day 403 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: no one knows who you are, the next day everyone 404 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: knows your name and they're considering you. 405 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 3: And they know your genetic makeup better than you do. Yeah, allegedly, allegedly. 406 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, all those keyboard warriors with their science degrees. 407 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 3: So it then so we started at the bout of course, 408 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 3: that made this all blow up those forty six seconds. 409 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 3: But from there Amman Khalif continues fighting and continues winning 410 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 3: and goes on to win gold. And when she does 411 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 3: win gold, these bouts took place at Roland Garross of 412 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 3: all places. It was to rapturous applause. There was chance 413 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 3: of Aman in the crowd. And she has since returned 414 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: to Algeria and there has been enormous celebration. Here is welcome, 415 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 3: which could have gone one of many ways, because when 416 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 3: you do have people like JK. 417 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 4: Rowling, Elon Musk. 418 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 2: Donald Trump, Donald Trump, I mean, these are the people 419 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 2: who were coming out against her right and being like 420 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: keep women sports safe. 421 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 3: And it has to be said the differences between Casas 422 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 3: Semnia and this story here with Amman Khalif is Casa 423 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 3: Semenya is in running, so there is no threat of 424 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 3: someone's imminent safety because you are in your own lane. 425 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 3: Whereas all of a sudden in the context and you 426 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 3: think about what's happening in Australia and at the moment 427 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 3: in the context of a man and I use inverted 428 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 3: commas because we know now that that is not the case. 429 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 3: A man hitching a woman. 430 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: Which is what JK said, which is framed, which is. 431 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 4: What JK said. 432 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 3: This took on a whole different meaning and the question 433 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 3: didn't become about their eligibility. It's how do we protect 434 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 3: And it's the two words that the IOC keep using, 435 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 3: fairness and safety. And it became a question of safety 436 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: because if you have heightened testosterone, particularly during puberty, it 437 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 3: is highly likely that you will develop more strength and 438 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,479 Speaker 3: again be able to exert more power in a punch 439 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 3: than someone who didn't have X Y chromosomes during puberty. 440 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 3: And therefore, how is this an even playing field? But 441 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 3: we further argue, do you know who it wasn't on 442 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 3: an even playing field? Usain Bolt, Michael Felt, Michael Felps 443 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 3: with the enormous flippers. 444 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 4: There are people you look at. 445 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: There's no such thing as an even playing field when 446 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: it comes to sport. There's not. 447 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 3: And none of these men were ever questioned about the 448 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 3: fact that hang on the way that you were physiological 449 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 3: action made you and basically your genetic makeup means that 450 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 3: this is unfair. 451 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, we should point out that as far as we 452 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: are aware, like when it comes to male athletes, they 453 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: do not undergo the same sex testing. There is not 454 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 2: a ceiling that is placed upon them when it comes 455 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 2: to what is I don't know that should be naturally occurring. 456 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 3: And even the idea of sex testing, George, it's so invasive. 457 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 3: And during the sixties in the Olympics it was genuinely 458 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 3: drop your pants, and it was examinations that happened, and 459 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 3: it was also targeted. This wasn't blanket testing. It was 460 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 3: testing that happened on athletes that they suspected. So even 461 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 3: that in itself how horrendous. And in the case of 462 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 3: these two boxes when it happened with the IBA, not 463 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 3: everyone was gender tested. No, no, so again all targeted 464 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 3: on people that have specific attributes esthetically that have people question. 465 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 2: How do you feel that the IOC handled everything, because 466 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 2: we know that during the actual games, President Thomas Bark 467 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 2: was very very strong in some of the comments that 468 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 2: he had to say in defense of a Mankalief. 469 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 4: Let's have a listen to it now. 470 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 5: How can somebody being born, raised, competed and having a 471 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 5: passport as a woman cannot be considered a woman. We 472 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 5: will not take part in a politically motivated, sometimes politically motivated, 473 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 5: a cultural war. And allow me to say that what 474 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 5: is going on in this context in the social media, 475 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 5: with all this hate speech, with this aggression and appeals 476 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 5: and fueled by this agenda, is so totally unacceptable. 477 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: I applaud what Thomas Buck said there because the IOC 478 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: was fully behind Imman throughout her entire campaign at the 479 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: Games after that fight with Karini, and I would also 480 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 2: then raise the bar and say we talk about fairness 481 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: and safety in sport, well, safety then surely has to 482 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: extend to someone's mental health. Because completely that woman was 483 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 2: put through, those two women were put through throughout the 484 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 2: Paris Games is abhorrent. 485 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 3: I mean, the one thing I will say about the 486 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: IOC drop the passport angle, Yes, drop the passport angle 487 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 3: like it says female on their passport. Oh, if only 488 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 3: the world was that simple, if only the world keyboard. 489 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 1: Worry is they need some more proof than that. 490 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 3: Again, so we have mentioned that Amman was received with 491 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 3: raptures in Algeria, as she should be as a reigning 492 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 3: Olympic champion. 493 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 4: We love that. 494 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 3: We also know that she has come out and said 495 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 3: that she will be launching basically a claim against people 496 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 3: such as Elon Musk and JK Rowling for discrimination. She 497 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 3: hasn't in interviews that she's done, since she hasn't been 498 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 3: baited as to speaking publicly about it, But we wait 499 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 3: and see what happens there. But also in addition to that, 500 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 3: we are still in the gray area of how this 501 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 3: is going to be handled going forward, because boxing at 502 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 3: the Olympics was in a unique situation where it was 503 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,479 Speaker 3: managed by the IOC. But as we know, and as 504 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,959 Speaker 3: we know through qualification issues that have happened here in Australia, 505 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 3: each individual governing body makes the decision on which athletes 506 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 3: are eligible yes, and which athletes to send to an 507 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 3: Olympic Games yes. So until this gray has a universal 508 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 3: rule in which fits into at the moment the very 509 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 3: black and white categories that happen at Olympics of male 510 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 3: competition and female competition, there will still be victims that 511 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 3: don't fall into those categories through no fault of their own, 512 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 3: that have found sport and in a lot of these 513 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 3: cases have found sport as a way of helping their 514 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 3: family out of very difficult economic situations. Yes, and also 515 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: for the reason that anyone finds sport, they love it, 516 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 3: they're good at it, and it brings them joy, and 517 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 3: they don't deserve to be subject to this trial by public. 518 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 3: So something has to give. And at the moment the 519 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 3: IOC is like, what is giving is boxing Because it's 520 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 3: sure as hell ain't going to be in. 521 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: LA, which I would completely disagree with. It will be there. 522 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: It will be there, They'll get something will happen, and 523 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 2: there will be some kind of organization. 524 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 3: Georgie, we could go on about this forever, and our 525 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 3: natural instinct, you and I when someone is being attacked 526 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 3: on a global stage for something that isn't their fault, 527 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 3: is to go ragingly into the defense of the wrong. Yes, 528 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 3: and in this to be tech, these two female boxes 529 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 3: were absolutely wronged. Where this becomes really difficult to draw 530 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 3: a line in the sand for me is if I 531 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 3: am competing and I know that there are people that 532 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: again it's not been their choice. They haven't doped, they 533 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 3: haven't cheated, but they are genetically disposed to be better 534 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 3: at something that I'm competing in. And I'm consistently getting 535 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 3: beaten and there's nothing that I can do to Again. 536 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 3: This is I'm just being an advocate here to level 537 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 3: the playing field in terms of the testosterone in my body, 538 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 3: my strength, my levels. There are always always going to 539 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 3: be athletes that say that people with X Y chromosomes 540 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 3: or heightened testosterone, whether natural or not, competing is unfair. 541 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that they're entitled to those opinions, right. I 542 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 2: would like to think that if I was in the 543 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 2: same place, and I'm not so I'd actually don't know 544 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 2: how I would react. But if I was in that position, 545 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 2: I would like to think that I was like, oh wow, 546 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: this is my time, and it's time and this it's 547 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 2: a crossover point, do you know what I mean? Because 548 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: you can talk about even our favorite football clothes, like 549 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 2: you've got a Cooper Kronk that had to train to 550 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 2: within an inch of his life, looking at every single 551 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 2: tape and analysis and whatever, and then actually gifted athletes 552 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 2: like JT who just rock up and do miracles. Yes, 553 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 2: I mean, I know it's completely different, but sport has 554 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 2: never been a level playing field. Of course, we need 555 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 2: infrastructure in place to keep it as fair as possible, 556 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: but in this current world, that's still going to keep changing, 557 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 2: like our definitions are going to be redefined absolutely every 558 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 2: single year, and sport at the moment just isn't keeping up. No, 559 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 2: it's not keeping up. It's not keeping up. We are behind. 560 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 2: But I think it is important to leave the final 561 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: word with Emman Khalif, because she was thrown into this narrative, 562 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: none of it being her making. And she released a 563 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 2: statement after she won gold hitting out at the haters 564 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: and hitting out at the IBA in particular and their 565 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 2: treatment of her. And in that statement she talks about 566 00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: the hate that she got and she really doesn't know 567 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: why that she was targeted, but she says to everyone, 568 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 2: I've sent them a single message with this gold medal, 569 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: telling them my dignity and my honor is above everything else. 570 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 4: And that to me is a knockout. 571 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: Jell me. 572 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 4: I'm ready. We need a bit of lightning. Because it's 573 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 4: been heavy, has been heavy. It's heavyweight. It's been heavy. 574 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 3: Actually, you know what fun facts. I used to box 575 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 3: for fitness every day every day. 576 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: Yeah okay, I was going to say me too, but 577 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: not every day. 578 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 4: I was a bit of a like, I'd go every day, 579 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 4: and I loved it. 580 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 2: You know what, I actually love it as well because 581 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: it's so technical, right, and sometimes you're focusing so hard 582 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 2: on how to get the technique right that you don't 583 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 2: realize that you're dead because you've just been doing a 584 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 2: forty five minute cardio class with a heart rate of 585 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: two hundred. 586 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 3: This explains the difference between you and I, because you 587 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 3: just went, yeah, it's so technical, and I'm like, I 588 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 3: got to hit something really hard and just get it 589 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 3: back and just borderline assaulted before I started one day 590 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 3: just feel better about the world. But it is exceptional fitness, boxing, fitness, 591 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 3: but that is not our fun. 592 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 4: I'm gonna go or you've got you said you've got 593 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 4: a bit of a tippit for me? What's your fun? 594 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 3: Fat? 595 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: Oh my god, so jelmy. 596 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: You know how I like to think of myself as 597 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 2: an athlete or just maybe just as you know the 598 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 2: what if. 599 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 3: The category changes every week, dear listener, of what Georgie 600 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 3: could have been a superstar in. 601 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 2: I'll have you know that if you go to New 602 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 2: York and you go to Madison Square Garden, you will 603 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 2: see a framed photo of one of my ancestors who 604 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: won a lot of sporting merit and bouts at that venue. 605 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: His name was Gene Tunney and he. 606 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 2: Is a apparently champion boxer. 607 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 4: It's in my blood. 608 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: Apparently he was. There was like two I don't even know, 609 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: like right, this is the thing. It's all news to me, 610 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: Like I've only just learned this right now. 611 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 2: I'm like, hang on, because I have never been a 612 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: person who's had any kind of interest in ancestry dot 613 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: com unless you want to sponsor this podcast, Like I've 614 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 2: never had an interest in it, right, Because they're like, 615 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: what's your heritage? 616 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: I was like, I know, I'm like the widest of why, 617 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: I'm Irish, I'm English, Like it's not interesting, do you 618 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Well, apparently with my family, his 619 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: tunny is spelt with an e, Gene Tunney, and apparently 620 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: he was a very big deal, very big deal. 621 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 3: In like the nineteen forties. I want to say, so, 622 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 3: how many greats is he? Your great great uncle or 623 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 3: great great grandpa? 624 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 2: Give me an actual I reckon great great great uncle, 625 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 2: but just the forties maybe great great uncle. 626 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: Okay, great great uncle. 627 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,719 Speaker 2: Because the family when they were immigrating from Ireland, they 628 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 2: split into two, right, and one went to New York 629 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 2: and chased boxing prowess, and the others. 630 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: Landed in the verbs of Brisbane. Look at this phote, Oh, 631 00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: you actually have never seen my granddad. I was like, 632 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: look at this photo. It looks like my granddad. 633 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 3: Oh well, okay, I don't know how we're going to listeners. 634 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 3: I'm sorry for domas of the fact that you're not 635 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 3: going to be lacking up. 636 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 4: Any of that. 637 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 3: But I will give you a bit of a general 638 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 3: boxing fun fact in that the longest about in history 639 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 3: happened on April sixth of eighteen ninety three, where Andy 640 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 3: Bowen and Jack Burke went at it for one hundred 641 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 3: and ten rounds. 642 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: Maybe Uncle Jean was there. 643 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 3: It went for seven hours and nineteen minutes from nine 644 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 3: pm into early the next morning. They were fighting for 645 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 3: two thy five hundred dollars, which sounds like no one 646 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 3: of tho was swinging. 647 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 4: That would have been a lot of the money. That 648 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 4: would be a house back in the day. 649 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 3: But I can't begin to tell you that after six hours, 650 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 3: I'd be like, look, Jack, do you just want it? 651 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 4: Because I am not. I cannot one. 652 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 2: Hundred and ten rounds, Like, where is which one do 653 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 2: you think they found the hardest reckon the refs. 654 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 4: Like Ko and he's like I'm fine. I'm like, no, 655 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 4: you're not. I just want to go home. I've got 656 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 4: places to be. I don't know. 657 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: I love that. I love do you know what they 658 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: would be in my blood? I'd probably make it. 659 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 2: I'd probably be able to do it, just you know, 660 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: think about Jeane Toney and I could be there. 661 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: That's it. I'd win eight hours, no worries. 662 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 3: Georgie wouldn't last hundred and ten seconds in the ring. 663 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 4: I love you, but you just wouldn't. 664 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to do good Sports hopefully didn't feel 665 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 3: like it went for seven hours and nineteen minutes. 666 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 4: We are iHeart Production. 667 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 3: Please follow us on Instagram at two Good Sports Podcasts 668 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 3: Again slide into our dms with a fun fact. 669 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,719 Speaker 4: We love that, but until next week, A good Sport