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Speaker 1: Joining me in the studio right now. I've got our

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Speaker 1: Senator for the Northern Territory, Malandarie McCarthy, good.

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Speaker 2: Morning to you, Good morning Katy, and good morning to

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Speaker 2: your listeners.

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Speaker 1: And she's also bought with her another senator, one from

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Speaker 1: South Australia, Rex Patrick, good morning.

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Speaker 3: Good morning also, good morning to you listener.

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Speaker 1: Good to have you both in the studio now. Malandarie.

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Speaker 1: I understand that you have obviously invited Rex to the

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Speaker 1: territory to talk a little bit more about the cashless

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Speaker 1: debit card. What's on the agenda?

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Speaker 2: Sure, look, just to fill your listeners in Katie. We've

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Speaker 2: got Parliament starting on Monday in Canberra and it's our

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Speaker 2: final two weeks of sittings and one of the pieces

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Speaker 2: of legislation that's going to come before the Senate will

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Speaker 2: be the cash List Debit Card. And I think I've

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Speaker 2: spoken on your station a few times about how the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory is included in that piece of legislation. And

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Speaker 2: we have over twenty three thousand Territorians who are already

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Speaker 2: on the Basics card and this legislation will look at

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Speaker 2: transferring those territorians across to the cash list debit card.

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Speaker 2: So in a nutshell, basically, Labor doesn't support the cashleist

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Speaker 2: debit card. And what I'm doing is asking my senate

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Speaker 2: colleagues from all political persuasions to at least come to

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Speaker 2: the territory and listen to the people of the Northern Territory,

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Speaker 2: especially when it's a piece of legislation that's going to

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Speaker 2: impact so many families. Yeah, and I'm really really pleased.

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Speaker 2: Whilst I know that Senator Patrick is visiting numerous places,

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Speaker 2: I'm incredibly grateful that he's taken the time to come

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Speaker 2: here and just listen to people.

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Speaker 1: Well, and Rex, we know that your vote could be

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Speaker 1: quite crucial when we talk about these changes. What are

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Speaker 1: you going to do? I mean, what are you going

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Speaker 1: to be up to today and over the next couple

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Speaker 1: of days and looking at to really sort of determine

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Speaker 1: whether you support the change or not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, thank you very much for the opportunity to

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Speaker 3: talk to your listeners. And I'd really like to thank

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Speaker 3: Melandary for inviting me up here. I take my votes

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Speaker 3: on legislation very seriously. Sometimes I am making the final

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Speaker 3: call or the vote that I cast is one that

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Speaker 3: sets the legislation either to pass or fail, or in

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Speaker 3: some sense sometimes to be amended. That means I have

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Speaker 3: to really look hard at these things now the Northern

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Speaker 3: Territory and in an interesting position that's actually different to

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Speaker 3: all of the other test sites around the country. The

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Speaker 3: question that perhaps is being asked in other places is

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Speaker 3: do we continue with the card or not? Do we

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Speaker 3: continue with the trial or not, Whereas here in the

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Speaker 3: Northern Territory, it's a different question that's being asked, that

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Speaker 3: is do we transfer from the Basics card to the

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Speaker 3: City C card. And because that question is quite different,

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Speaker 3: it really is quite important for me to get up

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Speaker 3: and have listened to what people in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 3: have to say, and indeed to garner some of their

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Speaker 3: knowledge in terms of the experience as to what happened

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Speaker 3: when they went on to the Basics card back in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and seven that may have some relevance to

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Speaker 3: the other jurisdiction that I'm looking at. So I'm really

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Speaker 3: up here to just learn. I've come with an open mind.

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Speaker 3: I haven't got a position on the card yet. I'm

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Speaker 3: simply listening.

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Speaker 1: And so you are going to be heading to Nolan Boy,

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Speaker 1: as I understand it, today, Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's correct. So I'm actually quite excited about that

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Speaker 3: because I haven't been out that way before. I've certainly

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Speaker 3: been to the territory many times, so that in itself

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Speaker 3: will be a new experience. But I'm armed with an

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Speaker 3: indue card, so I actually do have a cash as

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Speaker 3: debit card with me right and issued, and I've been

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Speaker 3: trying it out in South Australia and I've gone to

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Speaker 3: places where I've been refused a purchase basis that I

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Speaker 3: had something that I wasn't permitted to purchase on the card.

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Speaker 3: And so I'm also going to be trying that out

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Speaker 3: all through my trip around the Northern Territory to make

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Speaker 3: sure that I can see whether whether or not there

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Speaker 3: are issues with it. I've already know. I've already noted,

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Speaker 3: for example, that I can't put the cashi Is debit

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Speaker 3: card on my on my Apple wallet. Just having the

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Speaker 3: card with me is very useful and then I can

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Speaker 3: try out a whole bunch.

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Speaker 1: Of things I reckon. That's I mean, that's a great

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Speaker 1: thing to do to actually get a real sense of

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Speaker 1: how people feel when they're when they're trying to use

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Speaker 1: the card. I guess you know, the intention of the

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Speaker 1: changes is so that that people aren't able to and

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Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, that people aren't able to,

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Speaker 1: you know, to use it to purchase things like alcohol

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Speaker 1: or you know, to to purchase things that you know

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Speaker 1: that may may be making their lives well, not better,

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Speaker 1: that's for sure. I mean, what are you planning on

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Speaker 1: having a crack at sort of purchasing while you're here, Rex,

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Speaker 1: and how you sort of what answers are you hoping

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Speaker 1: to get?

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Speaker 3: Well, I am going to try and purchase some alcohol

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Speaker 3: that is one of the prohibited items. I might see

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Speaker 3: if I can also try and engage in some gambling

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Speaker 3: as well with the card, just to see once again

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Speaker 3: what happens how I'm treated. But it is an interesting thing,

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Speaker 3: and that one of the things I understand about the

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Speaker 3: Basis card, and I'm going to experience this no doubt firsthand,

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Speaker 3: is that it uses separate terminals, so it's quite identifiable.

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Speaker 3: The Injured card is perhaps a little bit more discreet

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Speaker 3: in that it just looks like a credit card and

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Speaker 3: you can get to a regular terminal. There may be

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Speaker 3: some there may be some really good things about this card.

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Speaker 3: For the Northern territory, and I'll be posing some of

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Speaker 3: those questions to indigenous people, just pointing out that you can,

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Speaker 3: in fact just got a regular supermarket and you can

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Speaker 3: you can buy all of the goods that you might have,

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Speaker 3: but if you have a bottle of wine in as

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Speaker 3: part of your purchase, the experience might be you're told

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Speaker 3: to take that out of the cart, but then continue

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Speaker 3: on your way.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: So there's there are perhaps some good things about the

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Speaker 3: card itself, and that's what I need to explore. There

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Speaker 3: may there's some other things about the cards. So for example,

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Speaker 3: on the Basis card you can't you can't purchase tobacco,

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Speaker 3: but on the City C card, the Intue card, you

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Speaker 3: can purchase it. Yeah, how do people feel about that? Ye,

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Speaker 3: That'll be these will be some of the questions that

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Speaker 3: I'll be asking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Well, And Melandari, I think it's really

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Speaker 1: it's really good that you've actually, you know that you've

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Speaker 1: asked other your fellow colleagues to get here, obviously to

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Speaker 1: the territory, to experience it for themselves, particularly you know,

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Speaker 1: the independence and those who could realistically vote to see

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Speaker 1: this change go through. What are the main things that

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Speaker 1: you're really hoping in I Rex, for example, C's when

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Speaker 1: he's here.

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Speaker 2: I think, firstly to get a deeper understanding of how

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Speaker 2: the Basics Card came into being, and I know that

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Speaker 2: that's going to be important to the many organizations who

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Speaker 2: are meeting with Senator Patrick, so that they can explain

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Speaker 2: what happened in two thousand and seven, what they do

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Speaker 2: with the Basics card now, what they can't do with

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Speaker 2: the Basics Card. But also the process Katie, like the

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Speaker 2: phone calls to Centerlink, the fact that there's no Internet systems,

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Speaker 2: the fact that even mobiles don't work in particular parts

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Speaker 2: of the Northern Territory. So if we're talking about twenty

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Speaker 2: three thousand people to begin with, there is an understanding

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Speaker 2: that perhaps this may be the beginning of some kind

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Speaker 2: of rollout. Now there is no there is no particular

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Speaker 2: statement that's being said in relation to that, but there

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Speaker 2: is a question around is this the beginning of something

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Speaker 2: much wider across Australia and the Northern Territory people, Because

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Speaker 2: we are so many in terms of the over twenty

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Speaker 2: thousand people involved with income management, are we the ones

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Speaker 2: who actually are the guinea pigs and the beginning of this.

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Speaker 2: So these are important questions that I ask at Senate estimates.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, there's certainly going to be some people

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Speaker 1: listening this morning who are thinking, I don't see what

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Speaker 1: the big deal is? Is this so hard? You know,

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Speaker 1: why shouldn't it change over? I mean, what would you

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Speaker 1: say to those listeners? And you know Senator Patrick's going

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Speaker 1: to hear that from people as well. You know, this

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Speaker 1: isn't about you know, I'm not stopping him from hearing

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Speaker 1: from anyone. Actually, he can pull up people in the

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Speaker 1: street and ask them. This is really about Senata Patrick

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Speaker 1: and also Senator Lambie when I invited her up here

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Speaker 1: as well, getting themselves informed because I know their vote

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Speaker 1: is critical, and I would like to think that for

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Speaker 1: something that impacts so many Territorians, that we have senators

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Speaker 1: who are much greater informed about what the situation is,

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Speaker 1: but also ask questions of the minister and the government

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Speaker 1: that even I might think of asking. So I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is important. And getting back to your question,

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Speaker 1: there are people and families who will say exactly that

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Speaker 1: that it's sort of worked for them.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they've got brothers that they see have trouble handling money,

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Speaker 2: and finances. But I think at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: it actually comes back to does it have to be compulsory?

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Speaker 2: And that's what this is.

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Speaker 1: Well, i'll tell you what, it's going to be an

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Speaker 1: interesting trip for you. For you, there's no doubt about it.

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Speaker 1: Senator Melandary McCarthy always appreciate your time. Thanks for coming

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Speaker 1: in this morning, Katie. Thanks and Independent Senator Rex Patrick,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for your time this morning. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: thanks very much. You are listening to Mix one O

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Speaker 1: four point nine's three sixty