WEBVTT - The neo-Nazi protest, explained

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this this is the Daily.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the Daily OS.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 2>the twentieth of November. I'm Zara Seidler and I am

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<v Speaker 2>so excited to be back on the pod after a

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<v Speaker 2>little time away.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Emma Gillespian. I'm excited too, Zara.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back.

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<v Speaker 3>Really really happy to have you back on the podcast today.

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<v Speaker 2>As am I, look, we are going straight into a

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<v Speaker 2>big topic.

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<v Speaker 1>We're not starting small.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going into a big news topic that I have

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<v Speaker 2>watched across the headlines over the last couple of weeks

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<v Speaker 2>and that culminated yesterday when the New South Wales government

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<v Speaker 2>announced it would amend existing laws to ban public displays

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<v Speaker 2>of Nazi ideology. Now we need to rewind a bit

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<v Speaker 2>to understand how we got here, but it is basically

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<v Speaker 2>come after a group of neo Nazis held in anti

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<v Speaker 2>Semita rally outside New South Wales Parliament a few weeks ago.

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<v Speaker 2>In today's podcast, m we are going to explain what

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<v Speaker 2>happened on that Sunday morning a few weeks back, what

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<v Speaker 2>the fallout has been and how the New South Wales

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<v Speaker 2>government has now.

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<v Speaker 3>Responded, Sarah, As you mentioned, this is a story that

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<v Speaker 3>has been developing for a few weeks now. The context

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<v Speaker 3>of it goes back several years even, but I think

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<v Speaker 3>a good place to start is probably that actual event

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<v Speaker 3>that you mentioned, that neo Nazis held outside New South

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<v Speaker 3>Wales Parliament on the eighth of November, because everything that's

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<v Speaker 3>unfolded since is essentially because.

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<v Speaker 1>Of what happened that day exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>So can you take us through it?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>So I remember we were all texting on a group

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<v Speaker 2>WhatsApp that morning saying, oh my goodness, there is this

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<v Speaker 2>image that has gone viral of essentially sixty men, all

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<v Speaker 2>dressed in black, standing outside New South Wales Parliament, so

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<v Speaker 2>just up the road from where we are now. And

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<v Speaker 2>that was a protest that was organized by a neo

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<v Speaker 2>Nazi group called the National Socialist Network. And what had

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<v Speaker 2>happened essentially was that that group organized to hold that

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<v Speaker 2>protest outside Parliament. They were standing there all in black,

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<v Speaker 2>some of them wearing sunglasses, others masked, but many of

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<v Speaker 2>whom were identifiable, and they were standing with a sign

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<v Speaker 2>in front of them that said abolish the Jewish Lobby.

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<v Speaker 2>Now the Sydney Morning Herald was there at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we do have quite a lot of vision

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<v Speaker 2>of what actually happened that day. But we also understand

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<v Speaker 2>that the group chanted the slogan blood and Honor, which

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<v Speaker 2>we know is a chant closely associated with Hitler Youth.

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<v Speaker 2>The protest lasted about twenty minutes, just to give you

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<v Speaker 2>a sense of the length of it was really really short.

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<v Speaker 2>I saw one journalist refer to it as a made

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<v Speaker 2>for social media protest, and I think that that really

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<v Speaker 2>perfectly encapsulates it, because it was kind of this very

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<v Speaker 2>inflammatory photo that immediately went viral and got the whole

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<v Speaker 2>country talking.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it was not one of those protests that you

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<v Speaker 3>see with masses of thousands of people marching through the city.

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<v Speaker 3>It really did feel like a very twenty twenty five

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<v Speaker 3>kind of a protest. So it's a Sunday morning, we

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<v Speaker 3>have these sixty or so men holding up deeply offensive signs,

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<v Speaker 3>chanting Nazi slogans. I think sometimes we see these groups

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<v Speaker 3>try to be maybe a little bit more subtle in

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<v Speaker 3>their approach, if I can say that, But there was

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<v Speaker 3>no denying it here. Immediately there were questions from the

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<v Speaker 3>community circulating online about how this was allowed to go ahead.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, exactly. That was almost straightaway. So if at

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<v Speaker 2>ten am these images started circulating, I'd say within the

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<v Speaker 2>half hour there were questions being directed to both the

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<v Speaker 2>Police Commissioner and later to the New South Wales premiere

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<v Speaker 2>about how on earth this actually happened in the first place.

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<v Speaker 3>Did authorities know this was going to happen?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, this is the interesting thing.

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<v Speaker 2>So police did know it was going to happen, not

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<v Speaker 2>the Police Commissioner, and I'll get back to that in

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<v Speaker 2>a moment. But police knew it was happening because they

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<v Speaker 2>received a notice of intention to hold a public assembly.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just a whole lot of words to say. The

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<v Speaker 2>group applied to protests and that intention was made clear

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<v Speaker 2>on the twenty eighth of October, so days before it

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<v Speaker 2>was held.

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<v Speaker 1>The notice of.

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<v Speaker 2>Intention was filed by a group called White Australia. So

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<v Speaker 2>per your previous comment about not obscuring what we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about here, and they made what they wanted to do

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<v Speaker 2>really clear. I won't go into the specifics of how

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<v Speaker 2>the actual process of applying to protest works because I

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<v Speaker 2>know that you guys covered that in a pod a

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<v Speaker 2>little while back. It's nice to you know, have these

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<v Speaker 2>threads throughout the podcast. But essentially police did not object

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<v Speaker 2>to the application to hold this protest and so it

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<v Speaker 2>was allowed to occur. So it wasn't necessarily that they

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<v Speaker 2>ticked and it was approved that way. But because they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't object to it and it therefore didn't make it

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<v Speaker 2>to the courts, it meant that.

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<v Speaker 1>They were allowed to proceed. Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>The Police Commissioner, though, as I just said earlier, didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know the protest was taking place. He said that was

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<v Speaker 2>because of a communication error internally within the police force

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<v Speaker 2>and because he didn't know about it, he said he

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<v Speaker 2>obviously couldn't tell the New South Wales government about it,

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<v Speaker 2>and so they didn't know about it either.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>I wonder if, because of the smaller scale of this protest,

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<v Speaker 3>if it slipped under the radar in some way. We know,

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<v Speaker 3>when there are thousands of people expected to attend a

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<v Speaker 3>protest that that requires you know, streets to be shut down,

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<v Speaker 3>extra police to be on duty, safety precautions and the

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<v Speaker 3>likes thereof.

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<v Speaker 1>So I wonder if it just sort of slipped through

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<v Speaker 1>the cracks.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, every other time we've spoken about a protest

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<v Speaker 2>on this podcast, we've been talked about tens of thousands

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<v Speaker 2>of people and public safety and everything that comes with that,

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<v Speaker 2>But you're right, this was obviously a much smaller scale,

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<v Speaker 2>but there were still rightly questions about how it was

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to proceed, and we know.

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<v Speaker 3>It proceeded despite the scale that it dominated headlines a

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<v Speaker 3>few weeks ago, and in the days since, both the

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<v Speaker 3>government and police were questioned by journalists on many occasions

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<v Speaker 3>about how this was allowed to go ahead, And then

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<v Speaker 3>this week the attention really turned to who the men

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<v Speaker 3>in that protest actually were, because, like you mentioned, Zara,

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<v Speaker 3>many of them were visibly identifiable.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I do want to shout out just some excellent

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<v Speaker 2>journalism that I've seen here, because so much of the

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<v Speaker 2>work that has gone into identifying who these men were

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<v Speaker 2>were done by journalists who either attended or have been

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<v Speaker 2>able to identify these men based on things like a bracelet,

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<v Speaker 2>so yeah, and then being able to verify it against

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<v Speaker 2>other photos. So there's been some really incredible journalism done

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<v Speaker 2>in the last couple of days. But as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>we have now got a fuller picture of who was

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<v Speaker 2>actually in attendance, who those sixty men actually were, and look,

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<v Speaker 2>they include people like an engineer, a teacher, an employee

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<v Speaker 2>of Australia Post. These are, you know, men who are

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<v Speaker 2>working everyday jobs who have then on the weekend gone

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<v Speaker 2>and protested in this neo Nazi rally. I do want

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<v Speaker 2>to focus on one of the men. He has really

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<v Speaker 2>dominated the headlines. His name is Matthew Grutter. Now, based

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<v Speaker 2>on the ABC's reporting, we've learnt that Gruter attended the

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<v Speaker 2>rally and that he was wearing I said before that bracelet.

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<v Speaker 2>He was wearing a bracelet engraved with blood and honor.

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<v Speaker 2>Again that's the Nazi slogan. The reason there's been so

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<v Speaker 2>much interest in Gruta specifically is because he's actually a

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<v Speaker 2>South African national. He is not an Australian citizen, and

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<v Speaker 2>he is in this country on a and since he

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<v Speaker 2>was identified by media and organizations working to help identify

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<v Speaker 2>who was there, he has since had his visa revoked

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<v Speaker 2>and he will be deported from this country.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll be back with more of today's deep dive right

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<v Speaker 3>after a quick word from our sponsor.

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<v Speaker 1>So Zara.

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<v Speaker 3>We've got Matthew Gruder. He was identified by that bracelet.

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<v Speaker 3>Then his visa was canceled. I'm assuming that that was

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<v Speaker 3>a decision by the Immigration Department. We've had a few

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<v Speaker 3>kind of high profile visa stories lately.

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<v Speaker 1>Tony Burk's been very.

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<v Speaker 2>Busy, he has and it was Tony Burke who announced

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<v Speaker 2>the decision this week. I do want to read out

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<v Speaker 2>something he said. He said, We've got a really strong

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<v Speaker 2>principle here. If you're on a visa, you are a

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<v Speaker 2>guest in Australia. If someone turns up for the purposes

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<v Speaker 2>of just abusing people and wrecking the place and damaging

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<v Speaker 2>the cohesion, you can ask them to leave. That is

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<v Speaker 2>exactly what Tony Burke and the Immigration Department has asked

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<v Speaker 2>of Matthew Gruter. And there was an immigration raid. It

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<v Speaker 2>was like a seven am, very early morning immigration raid.

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<v Speaker 2>After he was identified and he was detained.

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<v Speaker 1>He is now at Villawood Detention Center where.

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<v Speaker 2>He is awaiting deportation, which Burke says he expects will

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<v Speaker 2>happen very soon.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 3>So this South African national is essentially in federal custody

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<v Speaker 3>awaiting deportation. So just to recap Zara, we had at

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<v Speaker 3>the beginning of the month, this rally held by Neo

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<v Speaker 3>Nazis outside New South Wales Parliament. Police knew it was

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<v Speaker 3>going to happen, although the Police Commissioner did not. Since then,

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<v Speaker 3>people who attended the rallies have been identified. We know

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<v Speaker 3>many of them are quote unquote everyday people in the community,

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<v Speaker 3>working everyday jobs. One of them is facing deportation. Has

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<v Speaker 3>the government responded to all of this? What has been

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<v Speaker 3>said at that level?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a really good question and we got the

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<v Speaker 2>I guess fullest answer yesterday in the form of legislation

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<v Speaker 2>from the New South Wales government. So they announced on

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<v Speaker 2>Wednesday that they were going to introduce amendments to the

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<v Speaker 2>Crimes Act that would crack down on public displays of

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<v Speaker 2>Nazi ideology by giving police and courts greater powers. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>just to be clear, Nazi symbols things like the swastika,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, are already banned in New South Wales. You

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<v Speaker 2>cannot be publicly displaying that. But these changes will target

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<v Speaker 2>the actions that we saw specifically at that rally outside parliament.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, So it's about where you protest and where these

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<v Speaker 3>messages are broadcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's one of the things that's going into it,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's also what was being said, So you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a swastika is imagery, for example. But these men were chanting,

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<v Speaker 2>and so it's really doubling down on things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>So chance and slogans, the kind of Nazi retrick that

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<v Speaker 2>we were talking about, blood and honor.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is really targeting that sort of thing. Got it.

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<v Speaker 3>So those like emblems, the swastika, the imagery. I guess

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<v Speaker 3>this is a little bit of a loophole that has

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<v Speaker 3>existed since that crackdown, which the New South Wales crackdown

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<v Speaker 3>triggered a national crackdown. That's a symbol that is now

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<v Speaker 3>federally outlawed.

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<v Speaker 2>You're exactly right, They specifically, the New South Wales government

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<v Speaker 2>specifically said they've already you know, made actions in this space,

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<v Speaker 2>but clearly there is a need to strengthen the laws,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's what this is trying to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Got it. So just to talk about what would.

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<v Speaker 2>Happen in the instance where you know, this rally were

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<v Speaker 2>to go ahead again, anyone who engages in the conduct,

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<v Speaker 2>which includes as we just said, using Nazi chants or

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<v Speaker 2>slogans in public, would face up to a year in

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<v Speaker 2>prison or a maximum fine of eleven thousand dollars. Now

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<v Speaker 2>you referred just then m to the location when somebody

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<v Speaker 2>is you know, using this sort of slogan or chant,

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<v Speaker 2>and this legislation really zeros in on that because it

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<v Speaker 2>says those penalties will increase if the offense is committed

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<v Speaker 2>near a synagogue, so a Jewish place of worship, or

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<v Speaker 2>a Jewish school or the Jewish Museum which is a

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<v Speaker 2>Holocaust museum here in Sydney, and in that instance the

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<v Speaker 2>offender would be facing up to two years imprisonment or

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<v Speaker 2>a twenty two thousand dollars fine. So we're exactly doubling

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<v Speaker 2>in the instance that this is happening near a Jewish

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<v Speaker 2>landmark as well.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you mentioned police powers changing as well under this

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<v Speaker 3>New South Wales legislation.

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<v Speaker 1>What's the update there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so the amendment would also give police new powers

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<v Speaker 2>to order an offender to take down the suspected Nazi symbol,

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<v Speaker 2>so something like that sign that we saw outside parliament.

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<v Speaker 2>In announcing the new laws, New South Wales Attorney General said,

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<v Speaker 2>the deplorable stunt we saw outside New South Wales Parliament

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<v Speaker 2>has no place in our society. Nobody should be subject

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<v Speaker 2>to this vile hatred because of their background or faith.

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<v Speaker 2>We are giving police and the courts additional powers to

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<v Speaker 2>hold Nazi extremists to account for their abhorrent views. Very

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<v Speaker 2>clear language being used there from the New South Wales government.

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<v Speaker 1>And so just to finish off this law.

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<v Speaker 2>Just in terms of the process from here, yep, it's

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<v Speaker 2>been sent to a committee. Legislation often is, so a

0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.160
<v Speaker 2>committee will have a look at it, see if there

0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.040
<v Speaker 2>are any concerns with it, give some recommendations. Then it

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<v Speaker 2>will be back to the House to be voted on.

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<v Speaker 2>And we will absolutely keep our listeners updated as to

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<v Speaker 2>where that legislation ends up.

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<v Speaker 3>A really important and fascinating stories. Ara, thank you for

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<v Speaker 3>making sense of all of that.

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<v Speaker 1>For us, and it's so nice to have you back.

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<v Speaker 1>It's so good to be back, and thank you for

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<v Speaker 1>listening to.

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<v Speaker 3>This episode of The Daily Ours. We'll be back a

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<v Speaker 3>little later on today with your evening news headlines, but

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<v Speaker 3>until then, have a great day.

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<v Speaker 2>My name is Lily Madden and I am a proud

0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:05.520
<v Speaker 2>Arunda Bunjelung Calkatin woman from Gadigol country. The Daily oz

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<v Speaker 2>acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of

0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.720
<v Speaker 2>the Gadigol people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and

0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.800
<v Speaker 2>torrest rate island and nations. We pay our respects to

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<v Speaker 2>the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.