1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Good morning everybody. Welcome to the Daily OS. It is 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: the fourth of May. May the fourth be with you, Zara. 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: I sure we're going to hear that joke a lot today. 4 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: We've got a lot of news to get through. On 5 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: today's podcast, I'm going to have a chat to one 6 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: of the researchers behind the remarkable findings from Tasmania about 7 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: how they are now carbon negative. I'm going to explain 8 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: what that all means. But first, Sarah, what happened yesterday 9 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: in the news. 10 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: There's a bad day to be a low cash rate. 11 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 2: Yesterday the Reserve Bank raised the cash rate from zero 12 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 2: point one percent to zero point three five percent. In 13 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: a statement, the RBA said that given both the progress 14 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 2: towards full employment and the evidence on prices and wages, 15 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: some withdrawal of the extraordinary monetary support provided through the 16 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 2: pandemic is appropriate. 17 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: It wasn't the only big financial news yesterday, with the 18 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: Victorian government handing down its budget. The government has allocated 19 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: three hundred and thirty three million dollars to hire almost 20 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: four hundred triple zero call center workers, one hundred and 21 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: twenty four million dollars f Ambulance Victoria and four point 22 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: two billion dollars for rapid antigen tests. The state's net 23 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: debt is projected to be one hundred and one point 24 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: nine billion dollars at the end of this financial year. 25 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: There was some massive news out of the US yesterday 26 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: and it was reported by Politico. There was a leaked 27 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 2: draft of a US Supreme Court majority opinion that suggests 28 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 2: it has voted to overturn Roe v. Wade, and that's 29 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: the case that has been used to protect the right 30 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 2: to an abortion in the US. The draft, as I said, 31 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: was obtained by news company Politico, and they confirmed that 32 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 2: they had authenticated the draft that was published. 33 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: And today's good news. We're heading to the Sunshine State, 34 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: where renewable energy met one hundred percent of California's demand 35 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: for the first time on Saturday. It was about fifteen 36 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: minutes where the state was powered purely by renewable sources, 37 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: the majority of which was from solar energy. So yesterday 38 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: on the Daily OS we put up a post about 39 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: how Tasmania has become one of the first carbon negative 40 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: regions in the world. This is big environmental news, especially 41 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: in light of the debates that we're having in the 42 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: context of the federal election It really caught the eye 43 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: of a lot of our readers, and I think it's 44 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: going to catch the ears of the listeners. I got 45 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: the opportunity to sit down with Professor David Lindenmeyer. He's 46 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: one of the authors of the report that has actually 47 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: found that Tasmani is in this incredible situation. David, thank 48 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: you for joining us. I wanted to start off with 49 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: the silly question what is logging. 50 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: Logging is when you cut the forest down. So you 51 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 3: cut the trees down and either you turn them into 52 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 3: paper wood chips or you turn them into sore on timber, 53 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 3: and then the forest is regenerated, but it's radically altered 54 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 3: as very different, and that leads to a lot of emissions, 55 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 3: a lot of carbon emissions when you cut a forest down. 56 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: So I guess the processes that you've explained as logging 57 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: leads to things that we use every day timber, tables, chairs, 58 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: pieces of paper. Is what you're finding that we are 59 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: using too much of it? 60 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 3: Well, I think there's a little bit more complexity in 61 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 3: this space. Australia has two logging industries. It has a 62 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: plantation industry, so that's exotic soft wood trees like pinus 63 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 3: radiata radiata pine trees, and that's where almost all of 64 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 3: our thorn timber comes from to make furniture, roof trusses, floorboards, 65 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 3: that kind of thing. Native forests are almost all used 66 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 3: for wid chip's paper, pulp, that kind of thing. So 67 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: there's quite a big difference between what comes from a 68 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 3: forest and what comes from a plantation. And what we 69 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 3: see is that when we don't log native forests that 70 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 3: reduces the amount of carbon emissions significantly. And in fact, 71 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 3: in Tasmania, what we found was that there was a 72 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 3: change from Tasmania being at emitter of carbon to Tasmania 73 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 3: being a net storer of carbon, and the amount of 74 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: emissions became negative. So Tasmania shifted from being carbon positive, 75 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 3: which is a bad thing, to carbon negative, which is 76 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 3: a very good thing. 77 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: So we're obviously in the midst of a federal election 78 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: when net zero is the focus of the climate discussion. 79 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: What you're telling me is that net positive goes beyond 80 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: that you're actually storing more carbon than you're emitting. What's 81 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: the link between that finding and logging in Tasmania? 82 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 3: Okay, So what happens in Tasmania is that in about 83 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 3: twenty eleven twenty twelve, the tribe Donner woodchip Mill, which 84 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: exports woodchips from native forest to Japan to make paper 85 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 3: and we often buy it back again as manufactured paper products. 86 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 3: That woodchip mill was closed, and what that meant was 87 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 3: that there was a fifty percent decrease in the amount 88 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 3: of logging that took place in Tasmania. And the accounts 89 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: for the amount of carbon that's emitted in the state 90 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 3: showed that Tasmania went from generating about twenty million tons 91 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 3: of carbon emissions every year in about the year two 92 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: thousand and five to minus two million tons. So what's 93 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 3: actually happening is that Tasmania is storing more carbon now 94 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 3: than emits. So two things happen. One was that all 95 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 3: the emissions associated with logging forests was reduced, and at 96 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 3: the same time, because the trees won't cut down, they 97 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 3: were storing more and more carbon. So this is actually 98 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 3: an incredibly fantastic outcome because it shows that Tasmania can 99 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 3: make major changes in its carbon budgets. So this is 100 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 3: really important for tackling serious issues like climate change, and 101 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 3: it's the sort of thing that should be happening, not 102 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 3: just in Tasmania, but in places like Victoria and New 103 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 3: South Wales, where we know that if we stop native 104 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 3: forest logging, we can still get most of our timber 105 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 3: products from plantations, but we can store a large amount 106 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 3: of carbon in our forests, and that is a really 107 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 3: important thing to do for climate change. 108 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: How realistic do you think it is for a similar 109 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: situation to evolve in places like Victoria or New South Wales. 110 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 3: I think it's highly possible because we know that in 111 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 3: place like Victoria, Victoria makes major losses from its native 112 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 3: forest logging industry similar to what happens in southern New 113 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 3: South Wales. We also know that, for example, if Victoria 114 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 3: was to stop logging its native forests, it would still 115 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 3: have enough timber to produce paper, it would still have 116 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: enough timber to produce furniture, but there would be a 117 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 3: new industry in carbon storage, and that would be the 118 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 3: equivalent of taking seven hundred and thirty thousand motor vehicles 119 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 3: off the road every year for the next twenty five years. 120 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 3: So there's a huge carbon benefit, a huge emissions reduction 121 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: benefit from doing these kinds of things, and we actually 122 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 3: don't have to lose any jobs doing it. We can 123 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 3: actually increase the workforce because in a workforce in the 124 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 3: forest managing that very valuable carbon resource. And we can 125 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 3: also start to process some of the plantation logs that 126 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: we ship overseas, which can process those in Victoria, and 127 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 3: that means that we have more jobs manufacturing things in Australia, 128 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 3: we have more jobs in the carbon sector, and we 129 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 3: can end up with one of these really rare but 130 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 3: really important win win outcomes. 131 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: It's interesting, it kind of sounds like climate change has 132 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: almost been branded the wrong way that it's purely been 133 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,679 Speaker 1: about reducing emissions, but while you're talking to us today 134 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: is more about carbon storage. Do you think carbon storage 135 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: needs to be a pivotal part of the conversation. 136 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 3: Absolutely it does, and they're really two sides of the 137 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: same coin. So a lot us being talked about electric vehicles, 138 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: electrifying all sorts of things in Australia, and that's really 139 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 3: important to bring down our fossil fuel emissions. At the 140 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 3: same time, we actually need to store a lot more 141 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 3: carbon in our landscapes, in our oceans. These kinds of 142 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 3: areas and forests are some of the best places in 143 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 3: the world to do that, and Australia is one of 144 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,559 Speaker 3: the best places in the world to do that, because 145 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 3: Australia has some of the most carbon dense forests anywhere 146 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 3: on the planet. 147 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: I want to end by asking you a different type 148 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: of question. You've been immersed in research for quite a 149 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: long time. Now, now that you're seeing the research out 150 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: being reported by media, how are you feeling emotionally about 151 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: the state of affairs and the planet that you're leaving 152 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: your children or grandchildren. 153 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 3: I think there's enormous opportunities. So I'm very buoyed by 154 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 3: the results here that show that a simple change in 155 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 3: policy can make a major, major impact on such fundamentally 156 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 3: important things as our amounts of carbon emissions. So what 157 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 3: needs to happen now is that governments need to get 158 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 3: off their asses, cut the bullshit and get on with 159 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 3: the serious issue of tackling climate change. And here is 160 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: a really good option to do that. Stop native forest 161 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 3: logging and Victoria and in New South Wales, move out 162 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 3: of native forest logging in Tasmania, store shit tons of 163 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: carbon in the forest, have a biodiversity outcome, have a 164 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 3: climate change outcome, and improve opportunities for people working in 165 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 3: regional and rural Australia in new industries. This should help 166 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 3: us with a carbon transform. It shows that carbon is 167 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 3: a really important outcome of these kinds of changes. We 168 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 3: can employ more people, we can actually make money from 169 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 3: this because there are people looking for carbon offsets all 170 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: around the world. This is a good news outcome. It's 171 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 3: time to embrace it with good policies to back that 172 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 3: up and do what everybody in Australia wants to see, 173 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 3: which is some serious attempts to tackle climate change. 174 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: Professor Lindenmeyer, there's a lot we can learn from you. 175 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: There's a lot we can learn from Tasmania. Thanks so 176 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: much for joining us on the program. 177 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 3: It's a pleasure. Thank you very much.