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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now Well. Every

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Speaker 1: Wednesday on the Happy Families Podcasts, I have a conversation

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Speaker 1: with somebody who has something to contribute to the way

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Speaker 1: you're bringing up your kids, a way to make your

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Speaker 1: family happier, a way to tap into the very best

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Speaker 1: in you and help you to see the very best

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Speaker 1: in your children. Today's guest is no exception. I'm really

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Speaker 1: super excited to be able to spend some time talking

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Speaker 1: today with doctor Arna Rubinstein. Now, the conversation that we're

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Speaker 1: going to have is actually part of the Bringing Up Boys' Summit.

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Speaker 1: The Bringing Up Boys Summit was held earlier this year,

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Speaker 1: and we had a whole lot of experts from around

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Speaker 1: the world join us for conversations about what it is

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Speaker 1: to bring up boys. But I think that you'll find

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Speaker 1: that this content is useful not just for parents of boys,

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Speaker 1: but for parents generally. My sense is that hearing what

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Speaker 1: doctor Arna Rubinstein has to say will make a big

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Speaker 1: difference in the way you engage with your family. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Arna is the CEO and founder of the Rights of

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Speaker 1: Passage Institute. He has over thirty years experience as a

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Speaker 1: medical doctor, counselor, mentor, a speaker and a workshop facilitator.

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Speaker 1: The programs, the seminars and the camps that he's helped

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Speaker 1: to develop have been attended by more than three hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty thousand people globally, while some of the largest

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Speaker 1: schools in Australia have implemented his framework in wonderful ways.

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Speaker 1: His programs are designed to support boys and girls to

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Speaker 1: successfully transition healthy, safely into adulthood. His goal is to

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Speaker 1: make rights of passage mainstream once again. Doctor Arna Rubinstein

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Speaker 1: is the proud father of two wonderful young men and

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Speaker 1: a mentor to many others, and he joined me for

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Speaker 1: this discussion about why boys seem to be natural risk takers.

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Speaker 2: There's a reason for it. And when I studied passage

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Speaker 2: all over the world, what I discovered that extraordinarily, despite

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Speaker 2: the fact that they never met each other, they all

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Speaker 2: did the same thing. So they all reckon. They all

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Speaker 2: did at the same age sort of when the boys

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Speaker 2: were hitting puberty, and they would always be taken away.

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Speaker 2: And then there would be four elements that always happened.

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Speaker 2: The first is that the boys get to hear the

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Speaker 2: stories of the elders. They get to hear the men

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Speaker 2: talking about their lives and the big things that had

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Speaker 2: impact in their lives. And that's how they actually received

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Speaker 2: wisdom and knowledge, not by being told how to live

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Speaker 2: their lives and what to do, but by actually hearing

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Speaker 2: the stories. So stories were an incredibly important part of

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Speaker 2: ruts of passage. That was the first element. The second

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Speaker 2: element is there's always a challenge, and there was always

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Speaker 2: a challenge that pushed a boy to his edge. And

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Speaker 2: actually it did a couple of things. It actually made

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Speaker 2: him face his own mortality and fear, and it humbled him.

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Speaker 2: It humbled him, which is very interesting because if this

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Speaker 2: is anate need inside a boy, and if we don't

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Speaker 2: create it for him, he will go and do it himself.

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Speaker 2: He will push himself to a point where his mortality

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Speaker 2: is challenged, and if there's no supervision, the danger is

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Speaker 2: that he'll actually kill himself or badly injure himself, which

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Speaker 2: you know, I know I did emergency man, I did retrieval,

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Speaker 2: medicine and order. All the young men even make it

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Speaker 2: to the hospital. And so I actually believe that every

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Speaker 2: boy is going to go through a rite of passage.

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Speaker 2: The question is are they going to create their own

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Speaker 2: which you know, we hope is not too disastrous, or

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Speaker 2: we're going to create something for them which is actually appropriate.

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Speaker 2: So and then the other thing is if the humbling

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Speaker 2: doesn't occur, then they end up arrogant and entitled. And

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Speaker 2: you know how many young men do we know out

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Speaker 2: there who are our and entitled and think the world

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Speaker 2: is there for them and their role is to take

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Speaker 2: as much as they can. So that was the set

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Speaker 2: the first element story. The second element, there's always a challenge.

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Speaker 2: The third element is creating a vision for how you

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Speaker 2: want to be in the future. What sort of man

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Speaker 2: do you want to be, what's your role? You know,

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Speaker 2: how do you want to be in the community. And

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Speaker 2: included in that vision is what are the from your

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Speaker 2: childhood that you need to let go of if you're

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Speaker 2: going to become that man. And then the fourth element

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Speaker 2: I call it an honoring or a recognition of spirit,

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Speaker 2: and it's based on this idea that every boy is different,

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Speaker 2: and every boy is born with their own unique gifts

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Speaker 2: and talents, their own genius and spirit. And one of

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Speaker 2: the key things of a rite of passage is to

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Speaker 2: recognize and bring out those gifts, bring out that talent,

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Speaker 2: bring out that spirit, and they were things that were

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Speaker 2: done and so our challenge is them to make that

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Speaker 2: appropriate for today, because we don't live in the jungles

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Speaker 2: of Africa or Papua New Guinea to one hundred years ago,

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Speaker 2: the deserts of Australia. It's whatever we do has to

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Speaker 2: be appropriate for now. And I can talk about that.

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Speaker 2: But if we don't do those things, we don't create

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Speaker 2: a rite of passage. The danger is the boys do

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Speaker 2: not evolve and end up becoming physically adult men, but

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Speaker 2: still with the psyche the behavior boy, which is a disaster.

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Speaker 1: So in your book The Making of Men, you actually

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Speaker 1: talk about a world that runs on boy psychology?

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Speaker 2: Correct?

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Speaker 1: Can you just maybe? Because I definitely want to get

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Speaker 1: to these solutions and these ideas about what we can

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Speaker 1: do it, Because we're not going to send our kids

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Speaker 1: out to hunt a wildline in the forest just down

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Speaker 1: the street here, what do we do to what does

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Speaker 1: a world running on boy psychology look like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So when I was doing the work, someone said, well,

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Speaker 2: if you're going to talk about boys to men, you

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Speaker 2: have to be able to define the difference. I wrote

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Speaker 2: a model boyscology, healthy man psychology, and boy socologe is

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Speaker 2: what we typically see in a six to eight year

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Speaker 2: old boy. I'm the center of the universe. It's all

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Speaker 2: about me, all about me, Me, me, Me. I want

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Speaker 2: constant acknowledgment. I can't handle my emotions if something goes wrong,

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Speaker 2: I have a temper tantrum. I want as much power

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Speaker 2: as possible. I'm going to live forever. I can never

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Speaker 2: be wrong, never wrong. And I want a mother. I

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Speaker 2: want a mother to be my surch to do everything

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Speaker 2: for me, to tell me how wonderful I am, to

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Speaker 2: just be on call twenty four to seven. Now, that's

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Speaker 2: fine in a six to eight year old, But if

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Speaker 2: you imagine a man like a global leader or a

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Speaker 2: head of community or ahead of a family, who still

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Speaker 2: thinks he's the center of the universe, still thinks it's

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Speaker 2: all about himself, wants as much power as possible, can

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Speaker 2: never be wrong. When he doesn't get what he wants,

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Speaker 2: he has a temper tantrum and wants a mother instead

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Speaker 2: of a relationship. That's a major problem. And I can

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Speaker 2: think we live in a world that's run by boys.

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Speaker 1: I was about to say, isn't it great? That all

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Speaker 1: of the men who run various countries in our wom

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Speaker 1: who have done isn't it isn't it wonderful that they've

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Speaker 1: actually matured from that boy psych That's right.

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Speaker 2: We don't Yeah, you know, it's but it's a serious

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Speaker 2: issue when those men can put buttons that change the

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Speaker 2: lives of hundreds of thousands or millions of people, or

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Speaker 2: make decisions. You know, do we want those decisions to

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Speaker 2: be that for the best of the people or for

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Speaker 2: the best of that person? And so healthy man psychology

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Speaker 2: is I'm not the center of the universe. I'm part

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Speaker 2: of a community, and power is not just for me.

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Speaker 2: Power is so I can do more good in my community.

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Speaker 2: And if something doesn't work, I don't have a temper tantrum.

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Speaker 2: That's actually domestic violence. I have to be able to

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Speaker 2: stand with my emotions. And I'm not going to live forever.

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Speaker 2: One day I'm going to die, and I'm not always right.

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Speaker 2: I make mistakes. When I do make mistakes, I have

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Speaker 2: to be accountable. And finally, I'm not looking for a mother.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking for genuine relationship. And when I give my talks,

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Speaker 2: which I do all around Bain around the world, and

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Speaker 2: I talk about this model, and I say, to any

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Speaker 2: of the women in the audience, know, any men who

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Speaker 2: still think that the center of the universe, want power, acknowledgment,

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Speaker 2: can't stand their emotions and never wrong, and want a mother.

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Speaker 2: And you see the women and they sort of think,

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Speaker 2: and they look at their husband and they look back,

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Speaker 2: and then there's this sort of this awkward shuffle, and

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Speaker 2: you know, we know exactly what I'm talking about here,

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Speaker 2: and it's actually not okay. And all the stuff we're

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Speaker 2: seeing in the me too movement and toxic masculinity and

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Speaker 2: the patriarchy, and that's all inappropriate boy behavior from men,

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Speaker 2: and it's just it's not okay. It's completely not okay.

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Speaker 2: And a big part of it is because we don't

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Speaker 2: have the rights of passage to create this shift from

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Speaker 2: boy to.

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Speaker 1: Man okay, So you can't start raising a teenager once

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Speaker 1: it becomes a teenager. We shouldn't necessarily say that we

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Speaker 1: can still do some good, right, it's never actually too late.

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Speaker 1: But we've got parents of boys from eight to eighteen

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Speaker 1: who are watching as many of them are actually watching

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Speaker 1: it with their boys. In the book, you've got quite

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Speaker 1: a lot in chapter five about how you can't start

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Speaker 1: raising a teenager once it becomes one. So we need

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Speaker 1: to we need to start pairing young boys the right

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Speaker 1: way to transition them effectively from that boys psychology into

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Speaker 1: what it is to be a man. When do we start?

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Speaker 1: How does this golas? This happened because by the way,

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Speaker 1: you're not sending eight year olds out for these rights

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Speaker 1: of passages opportunities as they're moving through with their adolescence.

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Speaker 2: Now, look, that's completely true, and it is one am

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Speaker 2: I saying you can't start raising you know, teenage. You

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Speaker 2: want to say, become a teenager. So it does come

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Speaker 2: down to parenting. And one of the things I've discovered,

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Speaker 2: despite the fact that my main interest has been right

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Speaker 2: to passage, is there is a parenting issue and meaning

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Speaker 2: any parents feel very lost and feel like they don't

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Speaker 2: have a basic sort of God book and they want

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Speaker 2: to be the best parents they can, but A it's

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Speaker 2: hard because they're so busy, their children are so busy.

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Speaker 2: There's so much technology available every moment, and there's not

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Speaker 2: a lot of I have found a lot of great guidance.

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Speaker 2: So even though I do not want to be a

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Speaker 2: parenting expert, I have found myself drawn into that sort

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Speaker 2: of area, and we developed a model and I can

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Speaker 2: give you the link to send it up if that's okay.

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Speaker 2: On the thing great, And we talk about seven strategies

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Speaker 2: for building healthy relationships with our sons. And the first,

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Speaker 2: and it's quite basic, but our experience has been that

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Speaker 2: parents love this knowledge. And the first is finding something

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Speaker 2: that you both enjoy doing together, turning off your mobile

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Speaker 2: phone and doing it regularly. And this is for dads

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Speaker 2: and mums. And it might be walking the dog, it

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Speaker 2: might be going fishing, it might be listening to music,

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Speaker 2: it might be having a cup of tea, whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: But first of all, if you're going to have a

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Speaker 2: relationship with someone, you have to have time with them.

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Speaker 2: And extraordinarily I find a lot of especially dads, just

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Speaker 2: never have one on one time with their children. That's

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Speaker 2: the first one. I'll just name a few of them.

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Speaker 2: The second is practicing acknowledging what they do well, so

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Speaker 2: you know if you see them do something well, or

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Speaker 2: their gifts or whatever you actually name it. It's very easy

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Speaker 2: for parents just to tell their kids what they're doing wrong.

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Speaker 2: And once again especially dads, but it is a very

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Speaker 2: good name the things they do well teaching skills of reflection,

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Speaker 2: so when something happens, ask your child what they think

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Speaker 2: about it first, rather than just giving them the lesson

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Speaker 2: and saying if they have a problem, getting them they

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Speaker 2: can come up with a possible solution or some ideas

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Speaker 2: and then working with them on that. And then the

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Speaker 2: last one I'll mention is that when something goes wrong,

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Speaker 2: when they do something wrong, which will happen at some stage,

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Speaker 2: separating a person from the behavior. So you know, I

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Speaker 2: still love you, but you know, burning down the house

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Speaker 2: was not okay, or you know, hitting it, hitting your

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Speaker 2: sisters not okay. We've got to talk about that, you know,

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Speaker 2: Or if they don't do well at school, rather than

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Speaker 2: shaming them, saying, hey, what's going on? You know, because

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Speaker 2: one of the things we know with boys is when

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Speaker 2: they act out often that actually means they've got a

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Speaker 2: problem going on. So their way of expressing the problem

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Speaker 2: is actually acting out. So those sorts of things, and

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Speaker 2: we have like a wheel where we have all those

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Speaker 2: things and parents can give themselves a mark out of

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Speaker 2: ten in each of those areas and then join the dots,

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Speaker 2: and you know, it's a simple thing. And the final one,

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Speaker 2: actually I will mention is sharing stories about when you

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Speaker 2: were their age, including what went well and what didn't

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Speaker 2: go well, and those sorts of things. It's just about

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Speaker 2: building up strong, healthy relationship. Actually, there is one more

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Speaker 2: which I do need to mention keep going, connecting privileges

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Speaker 2: with responsibility. I can't not name that, because when we

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Speaker 2: just give our boys everything regardless of how they behave,

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Speaker 2: regardless of how they are, and they become entitled. That's

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Speaker 2: a problem. And from quite an early age, yes, we

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Speaker 2: give them things, but if there's an agreement, like you know,

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Speaker 2: you'll take your dishes into the kitchen, or you'll tidy

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Speaker 2: your room, or you'll you know, be home when you

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Speaker 2: say you're going to be home, and the privileges come

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Speaker 2: together with that, that's a very important lesson because if

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Speaker 2: we don't teach it to young as teenagers, when they're

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Speaker 2: you know, six inches taller than us and big and

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Speaker 2: strong and grumpy, that's not the time to be trying

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Speaker 2: to sort of put in the boundaries. And unfortunately, I

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Speaker 2: get a lot of phone calls from pants who say,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what happened to my twelve thirteen year

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Speaker 2: old son overnight. They won't tak me they won't cuddle me.

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Speaker 2: They just go in their room and lock the door,

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Speaker 2: you know, and there's a war going on in the house. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think there's a lot we can do

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Speaker 2: around our sort of early stage parenting.

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Speaker 1: Throughout those ideas that you've just shared, you've used dads

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Speaker 1: and the importance of his role multiple times. Can you

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Speaker 1: just talk a little bit about I mean, you've talked

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Speaker 1: about rights of passage and the elders, the men go away,

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Speaker 1: the elders spend time talking with the youngsters, and once

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Speaker 1: again you've brought you brought the dads in the male

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Speaker 1: role model. There's two parts to this question, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not supposed to ask two questions at once, but they

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Speaker 1: flow together. The first that can you just talk about

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Speaker 1: why dads are so important? But the follow up is

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Speaker 1: there's going to be a whole bunch of single mums

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Speaker 1: who are watching this. There's going to be a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of families where dad is either not safe or

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Speaker 1: not present, or for whatever reason, wants to be but

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Speaker 1: maybe even can't be. We want to give dads a

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Speaker 1: benefit of the dud as often as we can as well.

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Speaker 1: What are parents do in that situation?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, thank you for being that up. Equally

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Speaker 2: important dads and mums for sure, But the the thing

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Speaker 2: that we often find is that mums are so much

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Speaker 2: more present. And these are generalizations, but you know, very

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Speaker 2: often the mums have, you know, so much more to do,

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Speaker 2: especially in the early years with boys, and and we

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Speaker 2: do have a lot of single mums who are trying

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Speaker 2: to be mum and dad, which is very difficult. And

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Speaker 2: one of our recommendations there is to bring for the mums,

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Speaker 2: to bring other men in, whether it's uncles, friends, grandfathers,

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Speaker 2: are brilliant to bring that influence in. And what I

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Speaker 2: also say to mums, there's a new really key things here,

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Speaker 2: which is, you know, not to put up with inappropriate

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Speaker 2: behavior from your boys. They've got to learn early that

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Speaker 2: swearing at you, trying to hit you, you know, any

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Speaker 2: of that stuff is just not okay, and they need

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Speaker 2: to learn that while they're with you in the house.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a tricky one because you're right, something

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Speaker 2: like like a third of boys are now being brought

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Speaker 2: up by single mums and not having contact with their fathers.

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Speaker 2: So anything we can do to support mums is really important.

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Speaker 2: And I've actually got a chapter about that in my book.

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Speaker 2: So and those same principles with the mums are finding

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Speaker 2: something you can do with your son one on one,

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Speaker 2: sharing stories, separating the person from the behavior. All of

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Speaker 2: those things are as important as well as doing whatever

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Speaker 2: you can to have good men in the life of

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Speaker 2: your boys. And we look at it as a community thing.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I say, dads whenever I work with them,

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Speaker 2: you know, keep an eye out not only on your boy,

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Speaker 2: but all the boy. And the ideas were sort of

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Speaker 2: trying to create an umbrella where the whole community is

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Speaker 2: looking after all the children. And that's part of our

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Speaker 2: work that we do in schools is trying to create

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Speaker 2: communities so that those who are on their own actually

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Speaker 2: do have support.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like more of that converse, you can find

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Speaker 1: it in the Bringing Up Boys Summit. It's available in

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Speaker 1: the Happy Family's web shop. That's doctor Anna Rubinstein. Dr

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Speaker 1: Anna Rubinstein is from the Rights of Passage Institute. You

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Speaker 1: can find him at Rights Offpassage Institute dot org. The

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Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruhland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you'd like more information,

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Speaker 1: about making your family happier. You can find it all

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Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot au, including the Bringing

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Speaker 1: Up Boys Summit