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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, now that we understand each other really well, what

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Speaker 2: do you think we should do together to make sure

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Speaker 2: that we keep you safe and healthy and help you

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Speaker 2: to be a kid for as long as possible?

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My Mum

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 2: Tuesday, July twenty seven. It's a special day in Finland. Really, yes,

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Speaker 2: and we're.

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Speaker 3: Talking about Finland.

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Speaker 2: It was just googling and you find stuff, and I

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Speaker 2: was curious about important days of the year, and I

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Speaker 2: found out that in Finland's today this is a real thing.

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Speaker 2: It's National Sleepy Head Day.

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Speaker 3: Is that what you're trying to go with with your

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Speaker 3: hair today?

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Speaker 2: That is so rough? I can't believe you said that.

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Speaker 3: Is that why we brought it off?

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Speaker 2: Can I tell you about National Sleepyhead Day? Tell me

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Speaker 2: all about National sleeping This is a legitimate thing in Finland.

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Speaker 2: On National Sleepyhead Day, the last sleeping member of the

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Speaker 2: family must be woken with water. Oh, you can pour

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Speaker 2: a bucket of water over the head or throw them

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Speaker 2: into a lake, river or the sea. Wow, how fun

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Speaker 2: is that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Except we'd be doing it at the other end

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Speaker 3: of the year.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, that's right. I'm not going to do

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Speaker 2: it in the middle of winter. I just think it's

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Speaker 2: been so cold. Our teenage daughters, they would wake up

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Speaker 2: early that morning. Oh yeah, yeah. We are Justin and

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Speaker 2: Kylie Colson, the parents of six daughters. I've written six

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Speaker 2: books about making family happy, and the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot au. Every Tuesday we take a

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Speaker 2: listener question, and this is one that is really quite

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Speaker 2: an interesting one. Kylie, I'm going to share it with you,

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Speaker 2: and the reason I'm sharing with you is because I

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Speaker 2: reckon you'll probably have a bit to say about this.

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Speaker 2: This comes from somebody who are going to keep anonymous,

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Speaker 2: and she's telling us about her seven year old daughter.

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Speaker 2: We have a seven year old daughter as well, so

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Speaker 2: we might even find that there's something in common here.

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Speaker 2: Last weekend, she says, while I was driving my daughter

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Speaker 2: to a birthday party, she asked me why her legs

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Speaker 2: and arms was so hairy. She's a little bit hairy,

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Speaker 2: but nothing out of the ordinary. I answered that it

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Speaker 2: was normal that everyone has hair on their legs and arms,

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Speaker 2: and then I asked if she liked it, and she

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Speaker 2: said she didn't and she wanted to remove it with

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Speaker 2: my roller, which is an epilator our chow. Actually, just

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Speaker 2: before I finished the rest of the rest of the email.

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Speaker 3: Are you going to tell them your experience.

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Speaker 2: My story with the epilator. I think there used to

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Speaker 2: be one that was called an epi lady. Yes, right,

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Speaker 2: So I'm a kid. All my friends have gotten together

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Speaker 2: and one of the girls brings out her brand new

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Speaker 2: well let's call it a toy, her brand new epilator,

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Speaker 2: her epi lady, and she's showing us all how it

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Speaker 2: works on her legs. She didn't have any hair on

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Speaker 2: her legs, so we're just sort of watching her, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, I wonder if it could work on

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Speaker 2: your face.

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Speaker 3: You're such a boy.

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Speaker 2: And everyone was like no. So I picked up the

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Speaker 2: epilator and I turned around and was going and I'm

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Speaker 2: watching these tiny tweezers spinning around a million miles an hour.

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Speaker 2: And I didn't have proper whiskers, but I had enough

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Speaker 2: found yeah, yea yeah. I put it up against my

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Speaker 2: chin and I was like in the cartoons when you

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Speaker 2: see the lip, I got torn it. My whole body

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Speaker 2: was getting sucked into the appillade. I was like, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to die, and it was terrifying. It was absolutely terrifying. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: this anonymous email says, I'm not sure what to answer

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Speaker 2: when she said she wanted to use the appillador. It's

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Speaker 2: so young to be so body conscious about something so minor.

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Speaker 2: I just said that it hurts a lot to use

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Speaker 2: my roller and that she's too young to consider that.

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Speaker 2: What do I do now? Do I hide when I'm

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Speaker 2: removing my hair, like my partner suggested, Do I need

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Speaker 2: to brush it under the carpet. I'm guessing she's talking

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Speaker 2: about the removal of hair, not the natural hair itself.

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Speaker 2: Or should I investigate things further. I want her to

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Speaker 2: stay self confident and a joyful girl for as long

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Speaker 2: as possible. So, Kylie, you've been through this as a female,

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Speaker 2: and you've also been through this as a mum. We

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Speaker 2: now have six daughters, with the youngest being this age

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Speaker 2: of seven, and having that is that many women choose

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Speaker 2: to remove hair from their legs.

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Speaker 3: There's two thoughts going on here at the moment. I

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Speaker 3: really feel for this mum because it is something that

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Speaker 3: can really just pull at the heart strings of any

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Speaker 3: mum when you're dealing with children who aren't happy with

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Speaker 3: the way they look for whatever.

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Speaker 2: Reason, especially so young. As she said, when I was.

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Speaker 3: Younger, I was not as lucky as this little girl.

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Speaker 3: I had very very dark hair, and I have very

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Speaker 3: light skin, and I hated the fact that I had

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Speaker 3: hair on my skin. And both time I was about ten,

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Speaker 3: everyone else had started shaving, and I wasn't allowed to.

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Speaker 3: And unlike my other friends who actually just did it

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Speaker 3: without asking their mum's permission, I was probably too scared

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Speaker 3: to do it without my mum's permission, and so I

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Speaker 3: held on, but wasn't until I was twelve. And I

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Speaker 3: remember that first time shaving and filling the bath like

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Speaker 3: rim with all that hair. There was so much it

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Speaker 3: was a really big deal, and it was a huge

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Speaker 3: milestone for me as a then feeling like I was

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Speaker 3: becoming of age, I guess, and being allowed to do

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Speaker 3: something that was just so growing.

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Speaker 2: Us symbol of independence. Really for a ten or twelve,

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Speaker 2: it was huge.

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Speaker 3: But when you think about a seven year old, it's

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Speaker 3: a totally different scenario. And we actually had well, I

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Speaker 3: actually had a conversation with our seven year old recently

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Speaker 3: because she has said the same thing. She'd been watching

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Speaker 3: the fact that I was waxing everybody, and she wanted

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Speaker 3: to get on the table.

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Speaker 2: And so I've just got to paint the picture here

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Speaker 2: and I'm cutting you off. But for people who are

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Speaker 2: not familiar with what would happen in our home and

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Speaker 2: why would you be We've got this massage table that

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Speaker 2: is now the waxing table, and on the appropriately designated night,

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Speaker 2: Kylie would just say, all right, guys, it's waxing night,

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Speaker 2: and literally i'ld be there. Our eighteen year old will

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Speaker 2: be there, our seventeen year old will be there, and

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Speaker 2: the fourteen year old will be there. The eleven year

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Speaker 2: old shows up so that we can do something. She's

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Speaker 2: got a funny bit of her eyebrow that she's really

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Speaker 2: conscious about, and so we whip that off. So the

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Speaker 2: younger kids are actually watching an entire family go through

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Speaker 2: this waxing procession while we watch a movie on a

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Speaker 2: given night. So that's what Emily, as our seven year old,

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Speaker 2: is actually being exposed to. The socialization is strong.

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Speaker 3: Well, she asked she wanted to be wax and I

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Speaker 3: was like, this is crazy. I'm not waxing my six

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Speaker 3: year old at the time, but she was adamant she

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Speaker 3: wanted to be in on the experience. So I got

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Speaker 3: a little bit of hot wax and I just put

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Speaker 3: it on her foot where there was no hair, follicles

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Speaker 3: or anything to be seen, and I thought that would

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Speaker 3: be it. And I ripped it off and I was like,

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Speaker 3: It's just like ripping a band aid off.

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Speaker 2: And she was like, oh, that felt funny.

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Speaker 3: And because there was nothing, no resistance, there was no pain,

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Speaker 3: and so she's like, no, no, no, no no, I don't

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Speaker 3: want you to do my foot. I want you to

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Speaker 3: do my leg. I put on a cool wax strip

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Speaker 3: on her legs, so she I mean, her hair's so fine,

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Speaker 3: and again, it just felt like ripping a band aid off.

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Speaker 3: It didn't really take any hair off her at all.

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Speaker 3: And she was really happy because she'd been waxed, just

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Speaker 3: like her sister's. I did one strip. That was enough

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Speaker 3: for her. She was quite happy to get down off

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Speaker 3: the table after that.

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Speaker 2: I'm done.

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Speaker 3: But over time she's actually had the same conversation that

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Speaker 3: this mum has said. She came to me and she said, Mummy,

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Speaker 3: I want to wax my legs because I've got hair

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Speaker 3: on my legs and I don't like the fact that

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Speaker 3: I have hair on my legs. And we had a

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Speaker 3: little conversation around it, and I just basically said to her,

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Speaker 3: I said, you know what, you have to wait to

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Speaker 3: your big like your big sisters. And I said, and

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Speaker 3: we can have a conversation about that in a few

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Speaker 3: years time. And she went okay, and that was it.

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Speaker 3: She was really happy to know that I'd heard her,

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Speaker 3: that I appreciated that that's how she felt, and that

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Speaker 3: I would talk to her again when it was more appropriate,

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Speaker 3: and she was okay with that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So to our anonymous emailer, that would be my

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Speaker 2: first piece of advice. Just say when you're bigger, you

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Speaker 2: can and pretty much leave it at that. Little kids,

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Speaker 2: i'd say under about the age of eight to nine

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Speaker 2: are pretty much going to comply with that. After the break,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about what the stats tell us

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Speaker 2: around young girls and body image and what to do

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Speaker 2: how to address this if your child is absolutely persistent,

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Speaker 2: or maybe if they're a little bit older and they

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Speaker 2: feel like it's time even though you don't.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Family's podcap.

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Speaker 2: For a happier family, try a Happy Families membership because

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Speaker 2: a happy family doesn't just happen. Details at happy families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot au.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now and today we

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Speaker 3: are trying our best to answer an anonymous question that's

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Speaker 3: come through.

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Speaker 2: I remember when I was about fifteen, I shaved my

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Speaker 2: legs for the first time.

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Speaker 3: You shaved your legs. About what am I only finding

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Speaker 3: out about this now? Well, I was a competitive swimmer

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Speaker 3: or here we go, excuses. This has nothing to do

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Speaker 3: just like I wax you now, has nothing to do

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Speaker 3: with the fact that you are not a competitive rider.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not competitive at the moment, but I've always

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Speaker 2: been a cyclist and it's just I don't like having

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Speaker 2: hair on my legs. Like I remember when.

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Speaker 3: You actually told me that you were going to shave,

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Speaker 3: and you told me that you needed to because it

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Speaker 3: was important so for safety reasons when you were riding,

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Speaker 3: and it wasn't until you came out clean months later

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Speaker 3: and me it was actually because you just didn't like

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Speaker 3: the hair on your legs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyone who tells you that cyclists shave their

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Speaker 2: legs because it makes them go faster, it's a lie.

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Speaker 2: There's no evidence for that. In fact, cyclists primarily shave

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Speaker 2: their legs for each other. Oh it's vanity, so that

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Speaker 2: they can say, hey, boys, look at my legs. That's

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Speaker 2: pretty much legs a lot. We need to talk about science,

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Speaker 2: not about cycling. Okay. So here's I was intrigued by

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Speaker 2: the email that came through and the mum made this point.

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Speaker 2: I'm really concerned that my little girl is this worried

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Speaker 2: about how she looks already. Let me share with you

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Speaker 2: some stats. These are some stats that come from doctor

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Speaker 2: Renee Engeln in her book Beauty Sick. She says, and

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Speaker 2: I quote, girls start thinking about their ideal body at

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Speaker 2: a shockingly early age. Thirty four percent of five year

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Speaker 2: old girls engage in deliberate dietary restraint at least sometimes

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Speaker 2: thirty How much a thirty five year old girls deliberate

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Speaker 2: dietary restraint at least sometimes twenty eight percent. These girls

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Speaker 2: so that they want their bodies to look like the

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Speaker 2: women they see in movies and on TV. To put

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Speaker 2: this into context, important developmental milestones for five year olds

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Speaker 2: include the successful use of a fork and spoon and

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Speaker 2: the ability to count ten or more objects.

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Speaker 3: This just makes me sad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. It really is. And so when

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about this particular issue, I'm thinking, well, what

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Speaker 2: about it's one thing for us to say to Emily,

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Speaker 2: or for this mom to say to her daughter, you

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Speaker 2: know what, sweetheart, you're only seven. When you get a

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Speaker 2: bit older, we'll talk about it then and just kick

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Speaker 2: it down the road. And I think that's a perfectly

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Speaker 2: reasonable response for many families. But every now and again,

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Speaker 2: you've got a seven or an eight or a nine

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Speaker 2: year old who's at school and there's one of the

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Speaker 2: cool kids in the class, maybe one of the mean girls.

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Speaker 2: And let's I don't want a stereotype, but there are

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Speaker 2: some girls who are mean. Who she's popular, she's cool,

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Speaker 2: she's hot, everyone likes her. And she's only nine years

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Speaker 2: old or eight years old, and she's already started shaving

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Speaker 2: her legs, and she starts picking on somebody because.

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Speaker 3: She's shaving her legs and it's blonde. Let's just put

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Speaker 3: it out there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, probably, And so she's picking on somebody else in

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Speaker 2: the class who's got fuzzy hair on her legs or

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Speaker 2: who's got dark hair on her arms, and starting to

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Speaker 2: make comments. So maybe the boys are saying unkind things

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Speaker 2: about it, and in this situation, what we end up

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Speaker 2: with this is a highly self conscious seven year old

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Speaker 2: or eight year old, a nine year old ten year

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Speaker 2: old who's getting teased and is starting to refuse to

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Speaker 2: participate in sport or maybe even refusing to go to school,

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Speaker 2: making sure that she's always covered up, and all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, that innocence and joy of childhood is gone.

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Speaker 2: It's not there. And there are things that we can

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Speaker 2: do to help our kids to get through it, and

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Speaker 2: we need to because if it gets too much, you

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Speaker 2: know what's going to happen is that poor kid is

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Speaker 2: just going to go and try and shave without any

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Speaker 2: parental oversight. And that means band aids yes, yes, and

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Speaker 2: raizor burn. I was going to say razor burn like that.

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Speaker 2: That's a horrible feeling. And when you're only a kid

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Speaker 2: and you go and burn your skin with a raiser

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Speaker 2: like that, like just pain, horrible horror stuff. So I reckon,

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Speaker 2: there's a couple of things that we should do, And

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Speaker 2: I want to go back to my favorite response to

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Speaker 2: these kinds of issues, and that is that we use

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Speaker 2: the three e'es of effective discipline that we explore, we explain,

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Speaker 2: and we empower.

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Speaker 3: This mum mentioned that when her daughter told her that

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Speaker 3: she wanted to shave her legs, that she asked her

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Speaker 3: if she liked the hair on her legs. That was

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Speaker 3: the beginning of getting curious and trying to find out

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Speaker 3: so to take it. The next step would be to

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Speaker 3: kind of find out what it was about the hair

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Speaker 3: on her legs that she didn't like. What does she

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Speaker 3: think of other people who might have hairy legs or

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Speaker 3: hairy arms? How does she view them? Are they beautiful?

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Speaker 3: Are they ugly?

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Speaker 2: What does and what does it have anything to do

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Speaker 2: with who they are at all? Yeah? What about dad?

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Speaker 2: He's got a hairy chest?

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Speaker 3: Should which you look at a photograph of yourself? Can

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Speaker 3: you even see the hair on your arms.

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Speaker 2: And your legs? Yeah? Great?

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Speaker 3: Totally different perspective as opposed to just staring there and

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Speaker 3: recognizing that what you see in a photo is often

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Speaker 3: what most people are viewing of you, as opposed to

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Speaker 3: the microscopic view that we have of our own bodies.

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Speaker 2: And if we're really exploring, if we're really getting curious,

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Speaker 2: not furious, if we're really trying to understand, not reprimand

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Speaker 2: if we're genuinely exploring, we're probably going to ask questions

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Speaker 2: as well, like, so, if you did take all the

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Speaker 2: hair off your legs, would that change who you are?

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Speaker 2: And if it would, how my suggestion is that we

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Speaker 2: might then gently say to our child the main way

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Speaker 2: that it would change you is that it would make

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Speaker 2: you more self conscious, more aware of how you look.

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Speaker 2: It would make you more nervous, more worried, more aware,

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Speaker 2: and you'd probably wonder if other people were noticing it

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Speaker 2: as well. In fact, it would heighten your awareness of

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Speaker 2: body image and self consciousness. So we've got to explore.

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Speaker 2: Then we explain. I reckon, there's a couple of things

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Speaker 2: that are really important to explain to a child under

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Speaker 2: about the age of eleven or twelve about this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Number one, this is all about cosmetics and superficiality. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it probably does look nice, and that's why I do it. Well,

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Speaker 2: that's why you do it. That's why so many people do.

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Speaker 2: It does look nice, but I'd be talking about rashes

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Speaker 2: and cuts and prickliness and the need for maintenance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, maintenance is a huge one. And the fact that

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Speaker 3: you know, hair follicles get thicker after shaving as opposed

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Speaker 3: to the fact that these little kids their hair is

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Speaker 3: so fine and it will stay fine for a lot longer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've actually, as our kids have

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Speaker 2: come to us at the appropriate age and started to

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Speaker 2: say that they really want to remove their hair, we've

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Speaker 2: said to them, well, we wax, and so all of

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Speaker 2: our kids wax, which has been mostly painful and has

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Speaker 2: convinced them to stay hairy for a little bit longer

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Speaker 2: maintain their childhood. But the third step is that we empower.

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Speaker 2: After we've explained what our preferences are and what we're

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Speaker 2: nervous about, we empower. And the best way to empower

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Speaker 2: is to say, well, now that we understand each other

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Speaker 2: really well, what do you think we should do together

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Speaker 2: to make sure that we keep you safe and healthy

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Speaker 2: and help you to be a for as long as possible.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's other options. Some parents are going to

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Speaker 2: talk about hair removal creams and that sort of thing,

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Speaker 2: and every family's obviously going to have to make up

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Speaker 2: their own mind about it. We'd love to know what

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Speaker 2: you think actually podcasts at Happy Families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: But that would be my long form answer to a

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Speaker 2: question like this do you think we've missed anything.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't think you've missed anything. I think it's

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Speaker 3: just really important to remember they're seven and we don't

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Speaker 3: need to delve into too much. If a simple response

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Speaker 3: of let's talk about this in a few years when

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Speaker 3: you're a few years older is enough to get them

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Speaker 3: through that little moment, well.

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Speaker 2: We really hope that you've enjoyed the Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 2: today and that it's answered some questions or given you

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Speaker 2: some food for thought, whether it's about shaving legs or

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Speaker 2: something else to do with body image or challenges that

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Speaker 2: you're dealing with your kids. We hope that that's been helpful.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families Podcast, as always, is produced by Justin

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Speaker 2: Rulan from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 2: And if you'd like more info about making your family happier,

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Speaker 2: become a member of the Happy Families memberships. We've got

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Speaker 2: so many resources to help to boost your families well

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Speaker 2: being and happiness, and so many members who are absolutely

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Speaker 2: delighted with the way their families are changing as they

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Speaker 2: become increasingly intentional and practice the things that we talk

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Speaker 2: about in the membership. For more information, you can visit

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Speaker 2: Happyfamilies dot com, dot a