1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: You're stuck. It's a stalemate. 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 2: You need to get this decision over the line, and 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 2: you don't have any more time to waste. You just 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 2: need this one particular person to. 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: Agree and commit, but they won't. What can you do? 6 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 2: How can you influence the situation? If only there was 7 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: a magic question that would turn this all around? 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: Well, have I got the guest for you? 9 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: The Queen of Influence, Zoe Chance, is an assistant professor 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: of Marketing at Yale and has so many tricks and 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: tips for being influential that she has distilled into a 12 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 2: book called Influence Is Your Superpower. Her class, Mastering Influence 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: and Persuasion is the most popular course at the Yale 14 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: School of Management. So what is this magic question and 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: how can it become your superpower for being a better influencer? 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: How can you make people agree when they really. 17 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: Don't want to come to a decision? 18 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: And why is it important to be one of the 19 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: first three people to speak in a meeting. My name 20 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and the 21 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 2: founder of Behavioral Science Consultancy Inventium, And this is how 22 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: I work A show about how to help you do 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: your best work. Now. Zoe's area of expertise is all 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 2: around influence, but as a professor of marketing at Yale, 25 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 2: she also thinks a. 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: Lot about productivity. 27 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 3: Well, my dad grilled into me that productivity is the 28 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 3: most important thing, and his perspective was just that you're 29 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 3: working non stop all the time, every day, And so 30 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:55,559 Speaker 3: for many decades of my life it was just am 31 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 3: I working? Then I coded myself as being productive, but 32 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: that was completely wrong because there were a lot of 33 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 3: days that I worked for many, many hours and had 34 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 3: very little to show for it. 35 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 4: Like if I'm on a writing project. 36 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 3: I might write one paragraph and then edit the heck 37 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 3: out of it for an entire day or something. So 38 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 3: now I try to, when I'm organized, just set a 39 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 3: couple of reasonable goals for myself at the beginning of 40 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 3: the day, and if I accomplish those goals, then I 41 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:27,399 Speaker 3: feel productive. 42 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 4: Yeah. 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: Right, And how do you see the relationship between like 44 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 2: enjoyment or pleasure and productivity. 45 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 4: In a neurotic way? 46 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 3: When I'm productive, then I give myself a gold star 47 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 3: and I'm all happy. And when I'm not, I'm very stressed. 48 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: But the reality, the deeper reality, is that when I'm 49 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 3: overly focused on productivity that itself is what contributes to stress. 50 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 4: And my coach. 51 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 3: So I've been working with a coach for at least 52 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 3: a decade, and she helped me this year come up 53 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 3: with the theme for twenty twenty two of improvise when 54 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 3: I asked her to help me again for the millionth 55 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: time with time management. So I'm excited for that to 56 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: now take a new lens from the two that I 57 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 3: just shared with you and see what productivity looks like 58 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: in a year of improvisation. 59 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: Ooh, improvise. 60 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: That's so cool. 61 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: I've been trying to think about a theme for my year, 62 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: but I'm never very successful in doing it, So I'd 63 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: love to know what you and your coach's approach was 64 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: to getting to that word improvise. 65 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 3: Well, it's a little bit woo woo, something that we 66 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: end up doing a lot of, because, like I said, 67 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 3: we've been working together so long and she's great and 68 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 3: she tries all different things, but very often for us, 69 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: she'll lead me on a guided visualization meditation where I 70 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 3: will end up meeting face to face in my mind 71 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 3: with future Zoe, who gives me advice and I get 72 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: to ask her whatever questions I want, and she gives 73 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 3: me strategic advice or life advice or helps me feel better. 74 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 3: And it's kind of funny because obviously it's just me 75 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 3: giving myself advice. But the container that my coach creates 76 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 3: and the frame of mind that she's able to lead 77 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 3: me into gives a lot of clarity. 78 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: Ooh, I like that a lot. And so what advice 79 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: did Feature Zoe give to you to help guide you 80 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: through twenty twenty two? 81 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 3: Well, the advice is that I'm always setting these goals 82 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 3: for myself and then beating myself up if I don't 83 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 3: accomplish them. But stepping back and looking at the reality 84 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 3: of how things are going in my life and how 85 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 3: they've been going for a long time, is that overall, 86 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 3: I'm very successful and I accomplish these big things that 87 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 3: I'm excited about in the long run, and it's just 88 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: the day to day that does always go as planned. 89 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 3: So the advice was just embrace that, and especially with 90 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 3: us being in the third year now of the pandemic, 91 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 3: just accept the reality that things are not going to 92 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 3: go how I or anyone else is going to plan 93 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: this year. 94 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 2: And so how is the word improvise or the theme 95 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: of improvise impacting your day to day is so far, like, 96 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: can you give me an example. 97 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 4: Well, this is a very literal one. But I've signed 98 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 4: up for improvisation classes, which I'm really really excited about. 99 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 3: And it was something I've done only once over a 100 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 3: decade ago, for a couple of months, and I was 101 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 3: so humorous and happy and just feeling full of life, 102 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 3: just alive. I loved that time of my life. And 103 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 3: then I ended up moving to a different part of 104 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 3: the country, and you know, life happened. And I've realized 105 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 3: that if I can get back to that improvisational state 106 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 3: of yes and accepting the world reality, my own productivity 107 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 3: being one tiny piece of it, but the universe and 108 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 3: my life and my work and everything as it actually is, 109 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 3: and then adding on to that, I'll be able to 110 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: be much more joyful. So I've just signed up for 111 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: improvisation classes and the first ones on Thursday. 112 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: Oh that's so exciting. 113 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: I used to I did a few years of improv 114 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: when I was younger, and it was so much fun. 115 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: It's so funny. 116 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: I can so relate to what you're saying. A few 117 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: weeks ago, my best friend said to me aman that 118 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 2: you need to incorporate more spontaneity into your life. And 119 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: I got really defensive when she said it. I'm like, 120 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 2: I am spontaneous. I do that already. And then I 121 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: was sort of reflecting on, Gosh, why did I have 122 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: such a defensive response, And I'm like, hmm, maybe I'm 123 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: not actually all that spontaneous. So I'm feeling quite inspired 124 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: with your improvisation theme that you've got going. I think 125 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to have to do some further reflection on 126 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: that myself. Now, you made a really interesting choice of 127 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: walking away from going down the tenure track at university. 128 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: Can you can you tell me about like what the 129 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: tenure track is for those that don't know, and why 130 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: you walked away from it and why that's such a 131 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: big deal. 132 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 3: Sure, it's basically the worst thing that you can do 133 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 3: if you're an academic, And it depends what country you're 134 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 3: living in what the tenure track is like. But in 135 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 3: the United States and at my university I'm at Yale University, 136 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 3: the tenure track is it just happens to be ten 137 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 3: years long, and you have a couple of promotion stages 138 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 3: leading up to at the end of a decade, either 139 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 3: you get tenure and that you and it means that 140 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 3: you're senior colleagues vote on do we keep her around 141 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 3: for the rest of her life or do we fire her? 142 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 3: And sixty percent of the time that you've made it 143 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 3: all the way to that stage, which means major hurdles 144 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 3: to get there, sixty percent of the time you get fired. 145 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 3: So only and it's so hard to get down that 146 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 3: path that actually, for I think this is just average 147 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 3: across fields in the US, but I have heard from 148 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 3: smart people that only six percent of new professors end 149 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 3: up making it to the end of that path at 150 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 3: the university where they start. So there's a whole lot 151 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,599 Speaker 3: of moving around. Sometimes people get recruited elsewhere happily. Sometimes 152 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 3: they don't get promotion in one place and they move 153 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 3: to another place. And then sometimes like me, they like 154 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 3: I got the first stage promotion and then before the 155 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 3: second stage, I just said, you know, actually this is 156 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 3: not my jam. I'm really not happy and I want 157 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 3: to do something else. Usually if you stepped off the 158 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 3: tenure track, not just if you didn't get tenure, but 159 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 3: usually if you stepped off the tenure track, you'd be fired. 160 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 3: It's just wow, pretty much up or out the whole way. 161 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 3: But I got really lucky at my university. There are 162 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 3: a lot of resources and that's really important, and I'm 163 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 3: a star teacher and that's what I love. My class 164 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 3: is the most popular class at the business school. Students 165 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 3: love it. And it probably helps that I do a 166 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 3: lot for different parts of the university because I really 167 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 3: really love it here, despite the part that I wasn't loving. 168 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 3: So I'll help recruit with the admissions department, I help 169 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 3: train fundraisers for the fundraising department, lots of other stuff. 170 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 3: And the thing that I wasn't loving is what would 171 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 3: get me tenure, which is the process of publishing academic research. 172 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 3: So the research investigation part is interesting. It's cool, it's 173 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 3: you know, for people like you and me and a 174 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 3: lot of your listeners who are nerdy. It's totally interesting 175 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 3: to have a hypothesis and then you test it and 176 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 3: you create new knowledge. However, the actual real life experience 177 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 3: of academic publishing is that projects take years and years 178 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 3: and they are read by very few people. 179 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 4: Most of them. 180 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: When I say very few people the modal number of citations. 181 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 3: That means, you know, the most common number of people 182 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: who are writing a paper that cites your paper is zero, 183 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 3: so mostly not even your mom reads it. Lots of 184 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 3: papers are published and probably nobody ever actually reads it. 185 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 3: Sometimes a few people read it, sometimes a few hundred 186 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 3: people read it. And then on that path, there's so 187 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 3: much meanness and negativity, Amantha, It's just a barrage, and 188 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 3: any academic will tell you, but especially in fields that 189 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 3: get closer to hard sciences and economics, and I'm in 190 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 3: marketing and it straddles economics and psychology. But people, even 191 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 3: if they're nice, people in real life are very, very 192 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 3: critical and negative. And we give each other anonymous negative 193 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 3: feedback and reviews and face to face negative feedback when 194 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 3: we present research. And it was just hurting my heart. 195 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 2: And so you made that decision. What was your process 196 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: for making that decision to step away from the popular path. 197 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 3: It was a few years of denial and then and 198 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 3: getting depressed. And when I say denial, like I study 199 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 3: self deception, and it's not coincidental that I was really 200 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 3: deceiving myself that some how I was going to make 201 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 3: it through and figure it out and get back on 202 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: track and be happy and flourishing and productive, and all 203 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 3: of this and then when it was twoenty sixteen, I 204 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: guess when Donald Trump had just been elected, and I 205 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 3: was personally devastated, and I was at such a low point, 206 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 3: such a terrible state of mind, that it just ripped 207 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 3: off the blinders and I just said, I can't do 208 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 3: this anymore. And I was meeting with a mentor of mine, 209 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 3: and I just shocked myself by just blurting out, I 210 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 3: just don't like research and I love teaching, and I 211 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 3: don't know what to do. And afterward, I was going, 212 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 3: oh my god, that was so dumb. You shouldn't have 213 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 3: told Gaul's Alberman that you do live research. But he 214 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 3: was great and he helped me, along with many other 215 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: colleagues to make a transition that's worked out really well. 216 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 3: But Amantha, my office used to have this beautiful, large 217 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: office with this view, like giant window view across the 218 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 3: whole city. And now I have this office that's basically 219 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 3: the size of a king sized bed, and it not 220 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 3: only does it not have a window, it has two 221 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 3: walls that are glass on a hallway, so people can 222 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 3: walk by and see exactly what I'm doing on my 223 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 3: computer even right now. And the thing is, it actually 224 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 3: is fun for me. And I've made this little tiny 225 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 3: office absolutely beautiful and people walk by and they wave 226 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 3: and they say hi, and they stop and talk with me, 227 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 3: and it helps me be productive that they can see 228 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: what I'm doing. 229 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: I love that. That's very cool. 230 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: Now you have a book out called Influence Is Your Superpower, 231 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: which is brilliant. And by the way, we'll be out 232 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: by the time this interview goes to air. I'd love 233 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 2: to know if you can tell me about the magic 234 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: questions and why they are your go to strategy for 235 00:13:59,400 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: being influent? 236 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 3: Can I, metha, Can I just share a story that 237 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 3: will take a couple of minutes. Of course, yes, the 238 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 3: magic question sinks in a little better with a story, 239 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 3: and from an influenced perspective, we can remember things better 240 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: when we have something concrete to visualize. So this will 241 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 3: help listeners remember the magic question. And this is a 242 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 3: story that an American feminist named Gloria Steinem told when 243 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 3: she came to my hometown of New Haven, Connecticut a 244 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 3: little while ago. She was and she told it for 245 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 3: a different reason, but it illustrates very well. She was 246 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 3: working on the problem of sex trafficking. She was speaking, 247 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 3: she was writing she was traveling the world and she 248 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 3: had gone to a sex trafficking conference in Zambia. After 249 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 3: the conference, she goes to visit some women in a 250 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 3: village that's in the middle of nowhere, near a big 251 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 3: game preserve. And three of the young women from that 252 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 3: village had been lost to sex trafficking the previous year. 253 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 3: And Gloria Steine is sitting down with this group of 254 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 3: women on a tarp in the middle of a barren field, 255 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 3: and she asks them the magic question. She says, what 256 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 3: would it take or what would it have taken for 257 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 3: those three young women not to have left the village 258 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 3: in that way? And they told her an electric fence. 259 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 3: An electric fence. They said, when the corn reaches a 260 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 3: certain height, the elephants come and they eat it and 261 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 3: they trample it. And we have nothing to eat, we 262 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 3: have nothing to sell at the market. We don't have 263 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 3: any money to send our kids to school. So these 264 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 3: young women and their families were desperate. Glorias Dynam says, listen, 265 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 3: if I send you the money, will you clear the 266 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 3: field and build the fence. These women say yes, So 267 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: Glorious Dynam goes back home. She raises a few thousand dollars. 268 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 3: She sends the money to these women in the village, 269 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 3: and the way she tells it, she comes back a 270 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 3: few years later and they have a bumper crop of corn, 271 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: and since they put up the fence, no young women 272 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 3: have been lost to sex trafficking from that village. It 273 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: also happens that the women in that village had ended 274 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 3: up collaborating with the women in the village next door, 275 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: and they have now created and as far as I know, 276 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 3: it's still going on. There's a chicken collective and a 277 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: tailoring operation and their group is called Waka Simba. It 278 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: means strong women. 279 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 4: So the magic. 280 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 3: Question is just what would it take? And it's magic 281 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 3: for multiple reasons. First of all, it's respectful and so 282 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: that means it's comfortable on the other side and comfortable. 283 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 4: For you too. 284 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 3: You are acknowledging that you're not the expert here. They're 285 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 3: the expert on their situation and their obstacles. It second 286 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 3: is magic because it often gives you a roadmap to 287 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 3: success that's actually so much easier than you would have expected, 288 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 3: or maybe than you have even been willing to do. 289 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 3: And third, it's magic because if that person or those 290 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 3: people in this case have told you what it will take, 291 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 3: then they have implicitly committed to supporting that outcome. And 292 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 3: the way that I interpret this story, it's not that 293 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 3: the electric fence magically prevented sex trafficking, but the women 294 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 3: who had said this is what it would take, would 295 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 3: make sure that none of their friends, neighbors daughters, neighbor's 296 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 3: daughters are going to be sex trafficked. Now they have 297 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 3: the fence. So the magic question you can work with 298 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 3: almost any situation and any person, even if you've used 299 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 3: it before, even if you've taught them the magic question 300 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 3: and they laugh at you and of like, you know, 301 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 3: I'll use it with my daughter. 302 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 4: She'll use it with me and I'll be like. 303 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 3: Oh, ripley, the magic question again, and she's like, I know. 304 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 4: But then they give you an answer. That's great. 305 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:00,239 Speaker 1: I love that. 306 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: Now I'm thinking about meetings and I'm also thinking about presentations, 307 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: which are two situations that certainly I'm in a lot, 308 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: and then I think a lot of listeners would be 309 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: in a lot. So I'd love to start with presentations, 310 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: and I'd love to know what are some of the 311 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: things that you're deliberately doing to be more influential around 312 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: the ideas that you're communicating when you're presenting to other people. 313 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: You know, I'll start with something that is so simple, 314 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 3: but hardly anyone else does it, And it's particularly effective 315 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 3: and impactful in global business sorts of situations when we're 316 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 3: in meetings together, or for people who are doing business 317 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 3: or do leading workshops and things like that across borders 318 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 3: and or going around the world like I do. And 319 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 3: that is just playing music that is from the places 320 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,959 Speaker 3: that the other people in the room are from. So 321 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 3: at Yale, we have people coming from all over the world. 322 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: About forty percent of our student body as international, and 323 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 3: we'll have groups of people coming in from many different countries. 324 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 3: So if it's a global audience, I'll put together a 325 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 3: global playlist, and people who are hearing music from their 326 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 3: country instead of the one that they're in get so 327 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 3: excited and they feel so welcomed, and it helps everybody 328 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 3: just feel relaxed before we even get started. And this 329 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 3: is an example of one of the million things I 330 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 3: do to create an inclusive environment when I'm teaching or 331 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: presenting or leading a meeting. 332 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: I love that that is so cool. 333 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 2: I could imagine, you know, if I was visiting another country, 334 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 2: if someone was playing an Australian band, that would be 335 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 2: a really cool experience. 336 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: But yes, go on, what is a otther strategies? 337 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, so another strategy that's super you can tell I 338 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 3: like to focus on low hanging fruit and little tiny 339 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 3: things that you can do that can end up making 340 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 3: a big difference. Another example is something that I learned 341 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,719 Speaker 3: from a former manager who I didn't get along with 342 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 3: well at all, but he gave me a great piece 343 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 3: of advice. And this advice was about timing, and it's 344 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,719 Speaker 3: that if you can be one of the first three 345 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 3: people in a meeting to speak, then the other people 346 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 3: in the meeting will notice that you're there and they 347 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 3: will treat you differently through the rest of the meeting. 348 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 3: And this is especially helpful for junior managers or junior employees. 349 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 3: What happens if you haven't spoken up early in a 350 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 3: meeting is that when other people are speaking, they're not 351 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 3: looking at you, and it gets harder and harder for 352 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 3: you to jump in and speak up. And it's not 353 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 3: just harder because they're not paying attention to you, but 354 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 3: you don't even feel present yourself. But when you've spoken up, 355 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 3: as one of the first few people to speak up 356 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 3: in the meeting. Then when other people are speaking, they're 357 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 3: actually looking at you, and it's easier for you to 358 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 3: speak up again. 359 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 4: Leader. 360 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 2: He will be back with Zoe shortly talking about how 361 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 2: to persuade. 362 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: People to agree with you. 363 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: And if you're looking for more tips to improve the 364 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: way that you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter 365 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,719 Speaker 2: that contains three cool things that have helped me improve 366 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 2: the way I work. You can sign up for that 367 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: at Howiwork dot co. That's how I Work dot co. Now, 368 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: something that happens in meetings is that we're often trying 369 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 2: to get people to reach a decision. So do you 370 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: have strategies around how we can persuade someone to agree 371 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: with something when we're trying to get to that decision point. 372 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and again a piece of low hanging fruit here. 373 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: The highest hanging fruit, by the way, is crafting a 374 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 3: perfect persuasive argument. And the reason why I say it's 375 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 3: the highest hanging is not that it's the most difficult 376 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 3: to do, but it's the most difficult to succeed in 377 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 3: because persuasive arguments rarely change people's minds. But low hanging 378 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 3: fruit here is that actually influencing people to make a 379 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 3: decision shouldn't happen very often in a meeting itself, especially 380 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 3: when there's some resistance. So if there's anything big that 381 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 3: you're trying to persuade people of in a group, or 382 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 3: anything you're trying to persuade people of that you know 383 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 3: that you're going to get some backlash or resistance to. 384 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 3: It always starts with one on one conversations before the meeting. 385 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be with everybody. You have conversations 386 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 3: with anybody who's going to be a loud detractor to 387 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:11,719 Speaker 3: your idea, and anybody who holds a position of power 388 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 3: is at someone considered an expert that other people will 389 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 3: be looking to for their response. 390 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: And this is. 391 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 3: This is going to sound a little bit tricky, and 392 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 3: listeners can just. 393 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 4: I'll just let it sit there. They can think what 394 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 4: they may. 395 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 3: But one of the reasons that this works, besides the 396 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 3: most important one that you let people speak their mind 397 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 3: and you got their advice and maybe made their idea 398 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 3: better before the meeting. One of the reasons that's not 399 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 3: obvious is that when somebody has heard an argument or 400 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 3: viewpoint before, they tend to nod their head just to 401 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 3: acknowledge yes, I remember hearing that, and then other people 402 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 3: in the room see heads nodding, and it feels like 403 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 3: even more agreement than. 404 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 4: There is for your great idea. 405 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: I can just speak to that. 406 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: And what about when, like, do you have instances what 407 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 2: you're trying to get a meating with someone you know 408 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: with the work that you do now and they're like, sorry, 409 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: I'm too busy, I don't have time. How do you 410 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 2: work around that? 411 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 4: First of all, yes, all the time, and we all do. 412 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 3: And I really really encourage listeners to be the person 413 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 3: saying sorry, I don't have time, probably even more than 414 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 3: they are. And the real problem is too many of 415 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 3: us not drying boundaries and just looking on our calendar 416 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 3: to see if we happen to have an opening somewhere. 417 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,479 Speaker 3: So it starts with just being okay with other people 418 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 3: having boundaries with you and saying no to you, and 419 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 3: then acknowledging you, I know you're probably really busy, and 420 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 3: if there's any chance that we could meet about so 421 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 3: you when you're acknowledging that they're a busy person, they 422 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 3: may not have time for this thing. You're letting them 423 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 3: know that you don't feel entitled, and that's actually helpful 424 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 3: for them to want to help you. And so ironically, 425 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 3: making it easier to say no makes other people more 426 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 3: inclined to say yes. And then another small thing is 427 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 3: I would just in general say that it should be 428 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 3: very rare that you should ask for more than fifteen 429 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 3: minutes of somebody's time. When the lockdown happened and we're 430 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 3: all doing virtual everything, I ended up reaching out to 431 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 3: some very famous people to see if they could be 432 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 3: virtual guest speakers for the class that I teach, and 433 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 3: we ended up having some people that really surprised me 434 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 3: that they would show up for fifteen minutes. But it's 435 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 3: such a small amount of time and doing something from 436 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 3: their house that somebody else or a group of people 437 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 3: is really going to appreciate. Is it's hard to say 438 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 3: no to when you have a lot of appreciation ready 439 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,239 Speaker 3: to happen on the other end, and you've made it 440 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 3: easy for the other person if it's virtual, if it's 441 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 3: just a short amount of time. That the most famous 442 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 3: person who said yes to us was Darren Brown, who's 443 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 3: an a list mentalist and. 444 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 4: The UK you know him very well. 445 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it was. 446 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 3: It was amazing, so memorable for the students, maybe the 447 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 3: most memorable part of our class. 448 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 2: Oh goodness, yes, he'll probably be my favorite magician in 449 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 2: the world. 450 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 4: Oh amazing. Yes, I'm too too. 451 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: Now, you teach charisma as part of your course, and 452 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 2: I'd love to know, like, what do you deliberately do 453 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 2: or what have you learned to do to be more charismatic. 454 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 3: The idea of teaching charisma was so crazy and terrifying 455 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 3: to me when I first came up, because I just 456 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 3: felt like I would be a fraud and an ass 457 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 3: even though I had done a ton of acting training 458 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 3: and also directing. I had done theater, and I had 459 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 3: done some small movies, and I had been a high 460 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 3: school theater teacher even and directed stuff like directed a 461 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 3: film that won a little film festival. But who am 462 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 3: I to teach charisma? And you could imagine, whoever you are, 463 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 3: if you're a relatively humble person, it would just be 464 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 3: ridiculous to teach charisma. But I decided to do it 465 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 3: because when I would ask people what's the influenced skill 466 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 3: you would most like to master, just an open ended question, 467 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 3: charisma was by far the most common response. So I 468 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 3: started reading all the academic literature on charisma, because that's 469 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,239 Speaker 3: the kind of nerdy thing do. 470 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 5: And the academic definitions of charisma were things like a 471 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 5: seven factor model by the world Expert and charismas John Antonochus. 472 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 3: And so it's really he's great, but as far as 473 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 3: being charismatic, it's not possible to try to do seven 474 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 3: different things at once. And so I started then just 475 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 3: workshopping charisma to figure out, Okay. 476 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 4: What is it? 477 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 3: What is the thing that people do that might be 478 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 3: actually replicable for normal people like us? 479 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 4: And I would ask people, actually, do you want to 480 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 4: try this? 481 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: Let's do it? Yes, okay, great. 482 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 3: So I would ask people in a room to think 483 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 3: of a charismatic individual, just the first person who pops 484 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 3: into your head, famous or not. And in the workshop, 485 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 3: it doesn't matter if you say the name, but I'm 486 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 3: just curious who's a charismatic person that comes up for you. 487 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: So I've got a friend called Sean who I actually 488 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: met in improv classes a couple of decades ago, and 489 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: he's very charismatic. 490 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 3: Oh cool, and he would love to hear that he's 491 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,239 Speaker 3: the first man who find it. So could you just 492 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 3: think about and just quickly that was only a great 493 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 3: amount of sight. What are three characteristics about Sean that 494 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 3: make him charismatic? 495 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: He's incredibly present, He's very funny, and he uh really listens. 496 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: And it's funny because I was commenting to another friend 497 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 2: of mine because my daughter Frankie just adores Sean like 498 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: more than any of my other friends. But she's probably 499 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: spent more time with a lot of my other friends. 500 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 2: And I was commenting on this to another friend, and 501 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 2: this friend of mine said, it's because Sean is just 502 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 2: so present with her. All his attention is focused on 503 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: her when she's around. So, yeah, there's some things. 504 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 3: So awesome and I would love to meet your friend Sean. 505 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 3: So what ends up happening? And again this time what 506 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 3: ends up happening? About eighty five percent of all of 507 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 3: the answers and all the things people write down fall 508 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 3: into only two buckets, and those two buckets are connection 509 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 3: and confidence. And it turns out that when you mix 510 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 3: this cocktail, that's pretty much all you need and the 511 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 3: only thing that explains who are the charismatic most charismatic 512 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 3: people among us and who are not. And it sounds 513 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 3: like Sean has so being present and listening one hundred 514 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 3: percent about connection, right, and then being funny actually takes 515 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 3: a mix of both. It requires confidence to let your 516 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 3: guard down enough to be funny and to say things 517 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 3: that are unexpected and maybe weird. But you're not actually 518 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 3: funny unless you're connecting with people. So for those of 519 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 3: us who are not that funny, and that definitely includes me, 520 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 3: although I'm working on it by taking these improv classes. 521 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 4: That all you really need to do. 522 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:20,719 Speaker 3: To nail connection and confidence at the same time is 523 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 3: to practice focusing on the other person. And this is 524 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 3: coming back to just what you said about listening and presence. 525 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 3: And it's weird that it think about how weird it 526 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 3: is that you said Sean is charismatic because he's a 527 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 3: great listener, because we most of us think of charisma 528 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: as somebody who's a shining star. But actually you don't 529 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 3: have to say almost anything to be charismatic, and you 530 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 3: don't have to be loud. You can definitely be a 531 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 3: quiet person who's like the Dali Lama would be someone 532 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 3: who comes up a lot as charismatic and social quite 533 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 3: because he has that kind of presence you're talking about. 534 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 2: What's fascinating now, what about the dark side of influence 535 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 2: where you know people and brands are trying to get 536 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 2: us to do things. And I say, this is someone 537 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 2: that did work in advertising as a strategist for several years. 538 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: Can we how can we like protect ourselves when we 539 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 2: are being trying to be influenced? 540 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: Like, how do you do this in your own life? 541 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: Given you know all the tricks? 542 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 3: So I'm happy to talk with you about it. And 543 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 3: I too have worked on the dark side, And I 544 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 3: just ask you as as we get into it, did 545 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 3: you do things when you worked in advertising strategy that 546 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 3: now you shy away from or would be embarrassed about 547 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 3: that you're that you would be willing to share absolutely. 548 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 2: You know. I had a really hardline as I, I 549 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 2: guess became a bit more senior in what I was 550 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 2: doing that I wouldn't work on brands that advertised to kids. 551 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 2: And in my first year of working in advertising, I 552 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 2: remember I had to work on a project. So I 553 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 2: was working as a consumer psychologist and brand strategist, and 554 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 2: I was working on a project for a very well 555 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: known chocolate brand and I had to go out and 556 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 2: do focus groups, run focus groups with it's like eight 557 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 2: to ten year olds, and I look back on that now, 558 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: and I feel quite sick about the fact that I 559 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: was trying to get insights from kids to try to 560 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 2: use those insights to make them eat more chocolate. 561 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: Awful. 562 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I had similar misgivings myself because back in 563 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 3: my marketing days, I was working before I came to 564 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 3: Academia as a brand manager for Barbie and doing focus 565 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 3: groups with even three to five year olds, wow, trying 566 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 3: to get them to pester their parents for more toys. 567 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 3: And we were selling two Barbie dolls a second, and 568 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 3: I was just asking myself, what would success look like? 569 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 3: Does it look like selling three Barbie dolls a second? 570 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 3: And girls were getting five Barbie dolls a year, So 571 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 3: what does that look like like? They get six Barbie 572 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 3: dolls a year, and you know, they chop off the 573 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 3: hair and then chop off the head stripper naked, you 574 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 3: can't get the clothes back on, and then. 575 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 4: She just ends up in a landfill. Yeah. 576 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 3: So, but that's not like it doesn't sound like you 577 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 3: were doing dirty tricks or anything necessarily, but just the 578 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 3: just not feeling comfortable about the whole idea of persuading kids. 579 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,919 Speaker 3: And now as a parent, I feel much differently as well, 580 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 3: and I don't want people trying to persuade my daughter. 581 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 3: So there are lots of red flags that we can 582 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 3: look for. In the book, I have a chapter that's 583 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 3: called Defense against the Dark Arts of Persuasion, and we 584 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 3: start out with Bernie made Off and we talk about 585 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 3: nine red flags that you can find in situations like 586 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 3: cons situations like manipulative charlatans who might be cult leaders 587 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 3: or even leaders in personal development industry, kind of going 588 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 3: that direction, but also just transactional sales. And the red 589 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 3: flags don't necessarily prove like if you find one of these, 590 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that, oh, this person can't be trusted, 591 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 3: but it's a clue to look for more of them. 592 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 3: And the number one red flag to look for that says, 593 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 3: maybe this person trying to persuade you is trying to 594 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 3: manipulate you and they don't have your own best interest 595 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 3: in mind, is the most common one that's used in 596 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 3: transactional sales. 597 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 4: And it's just urgency. 598 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 3: It's just telling you this is you know, here's this 599 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 3: great deal, but you can only have it right now. 600 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: While supplies last today. 601 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 4: Only kind of thing. 602 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 3: And you know, when you go on hotel booking websites 603 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 3: and they'll tell you only three rooms left, or you know, 604 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 3: twenty nine people are looking at this pair of shoes 605 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 3: right now. Almost every time you see that, it's a 606 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 3: clue that somebody is trying to manipulate you to buy 607 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 3: something quickly or make a decision quickly without being able 608 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 3: to think through it well enough. And the vast majority 609 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 3: of the time they will still want to sell you 610 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,240 Speaker 3: that thing tomorrow after you have a chance to sleep 611 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 3: on it. 612 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 2: Now, For people that want to consume more of your 613 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 2: work and importantly get hold of your book, what is 614 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 2: the best way for people to do that? 615 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 3: So the best way for people to do it is 616 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 3: whatever wigh is the easiest for them. It's the book 617 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 3: is available wherever books are sold and online at whatever 618 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 3: site you want to go to. A lot of people 619 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 3: who like you and me, are very into product activity 620 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 3: are using audible or some audiobooks a lot, So you 621 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 3: could go on there and use some of the extra 622 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 3: credits that you have, or if you're not sure you 623 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 3: want to explore other stuff, please come to my website, 624 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 3: Zoe Chance dot com and there's a newsletter and all 625 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 3: kinds of other things like that. 626 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 2: Amazing Zoe. I've just loved chat. I wish we had 627 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 2: another five hours, but we don't. Sorry, thank you so 628 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 2: much for your time. It's been absolutely enlightening. 629 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure of 630 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 3: talking with you and Martha. 631 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 2: I just loved hearing all of Zoe's tips for being 632 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 2: more influential, and I especially love the magic question what 633 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 2: would it take? I tell you what, I'm very keen 634 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 2: to try this one out on my daughter Frankie. If 635 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 2: you are enjoying How I Work, maybe today's the day 636 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 2: that you decide to leave a review for the show. 637 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 2: You can do that by clicking on the star rating 638 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 2: or leaving a comment wherever you're listening to. 639 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: This podcast from. 640 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 2: How I Work is produced by Inventing with production support 641 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 2: from Dead Said Studios. The producer for this episode was 642 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 2: Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba, who does 643 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,479 Speaker 2: the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound 644 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 2: better than it would have otherwise. 645 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:17,439 Speaker 1: See you next time.