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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.

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Speaker 2: Hello the stock to Justin Coilson, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot au and the parenting expert and

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Speaker 2: co host of Channel nine's Parental Guidance.

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Speaker 1: Season two is coming up really soon.

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Speaker 2: Today on the podcasts, I have the opportunity to chat

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Speaker 2: with somebody that I'm super excited to talk to. Had

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Speaker 2: a couple of conversations with doctor Ross Green, an associate

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Speaker 2: clinical professor at Harvard Medical School and the originator of

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Speaker 2: the model in the book The Explosive Child. More than

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Speaker 2: half a million copies of this book have been sold,

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Speaker 2: a new approach for understanding and parenting easily frustrated, chronically

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Speaker 2: inflexible children. I love the book, Ross.

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Speaker 1: You can see the dog eyed highlighted.

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Speaker 2: Nature of the book when I went through it, and

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Speaker 2: it's just a delight to be able to talk with

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Speaker 2: you today.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate you invading me.

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Speaker 1: Ross.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that you are best known for saying,

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Speaker 2: and it makes up an entire chapter. Chapter two of

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Speaker 2: the book is kids do well if they can. For

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Speaker 2: parents who are struggling with children who are inflexible and rigid,

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Speaker 2: and let's face it, just a little bit frustrating and

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Speaker 2: even explosive. The idea that kids do well if they

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Speaker 2: can is both comforting and confronting, because it's comforting meaning, well,

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Speaker 2: the kids are doing the best that they can and

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Speaker 2: they just can't do it right now.

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Speaker 1: But it's also frustrating from the point of view that, well, why.

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Speaker 2: Can't they do it like they did it yesterday or

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Speaker 2: they did it last week. Can you elaborate a little

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Speaker 2: bit more on this idea of kids do well if

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Speaker 2: they can?

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of science behind kids do all if

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Speaker 3: they can? A lot of research not on kids do

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Speaker 3: all if they can specifically, but research telling us why

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Speaker 3: kids who have concerning behaviors aren't doing well. And what

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Speaker 3: the research tells us, of course, is that they are

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Speaker 3: lacking crucial skills flexibility, adaptability for us stration, tolerance, problem solving,

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Speaker 3: emotion regulation.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to pause you right there, Ross, Can

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Speaker 2: we talk about each of those four things five things?

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Speaker 2: Because it's so easy to sit here in a podcast

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Speaker 2: and go, yeah, okay, my kids don't have frustration, tolerance,

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Speaker 2: they don't have flexibility, adaptability.

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Speaker 1: At motion regulation, everyone nods.

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Speaker 2: Their heads, but it's worth taking thirty seconds on each

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Speaker 2: of them and saying, here's what they are and here's

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Speaker 2: why they're lacking them. Can we please do that? That's

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Speaker 2: so to me really important.

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Speaker 3: I don't often get the chance to do that. Flexibility

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Speaker 3: and adaptability refers to your ability to deal with changes.

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Speaker 2: They don't like that, right, Like when you're at the

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Speaker 2: park with the kids, you say it's time to go home.

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Speaker 2: They're kind of in their own little world. They're saying,

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Speaker 2: but I like it here, and now you're asking me.

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Speaker 3: To change, right, And some kids are going to pout

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Speaker 3: about it. Some kids are going to go right along

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Speaker 3: with it, that's their personality. But kids who are lacking

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Speaker 3: the skills of flexibility and adaptability are going to get

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Speaker 3: very upset by demands for change, especially if after we

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Speaker 3: demand that they shift gears quickly and they don't shift

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Speaker 3: gears quickly. All we do is insist harder or push

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Speaker 3: harder that they shift quickly, and then you have concerning behavior.

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Speaker 3: Concerning behavior occurs anytime you're placing demands on kids that

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Speaker 3: they're lacking the skills to handle. So there's flexibility, adaptability.

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Speaker 3: Many of us take that skill for granted. I would say,

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Speaker 3: demands for flexibility and adaptability for most human beings happen

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Speaker 3: many dozens of times every day, probably more so for

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Speaker 3: kids because we adults are so keen on telling them

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Speaker 3: what to do. Frustration tolerance. All of us gets frustrated.

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Speaker 3: How you manage that, whether you use your words, which

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Speaker 3: we say to two year olds, but which many of

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Speaker 3: the kids I work with who are fifteen still haven't mastered.

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Speaker 3: The ability to continue thinking clearly even if you are

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Speaker 3: from frustrated crucial skill. We use it dozens of times

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Speaker 3: every day, easy to take for granted unless you are

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Speaker 3: your kid is lacking that skill. Problem solving. In my opinion,

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Speaker 3: it should come first problem solving. I think if you

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Speaker 3: twisted my arm behind my back and said, ross most

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Speaker 3: important skill for life, problem solving.

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Speaker 2: When you talk through these skills, and we'll tie it

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Speaker 2: back to kids do well if they can in a

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Speaker 2: sec well, Actually, I guess this does tie in. There's

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Speaker 2: a phrase that I use all the time with parents

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Speaker 2: when I'm chatting about how we can help our kids

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Speaker 2: navigate big emotions, but also how we can navigate our

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Speaker 2: own big emotions, and that is the This is a shortcut.

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Speaker 2: I know that you'll probably resistant least part of what

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Speaker 2: I'm saying here, but for simplicity's sake, I'll say to parents,

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Speaker 2: high emotions equals low intelligence. The more emotional we become,

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Speaker 2: the harder it is to think clearly, the problem solved,

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Speaker 2: to deal with the frustration, to regulate and step through it.

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Speaker 2: And so I guess when we talk about an explosive child,

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Speaker 2: the entire book and even the concept of kids do

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Speaker 2: well if they can, ultimately comes down to let's help

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Speaker 2: kids too, and let's help us as adults to keep

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Speaker 2: our emotions in check so that we can solve problems effectively.

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Speaker 3: Correct and in early editions of the Explosive Child, I

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Speaker 3: used to write that kids lost about forty IQ points

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Speaker 3: in the midst of frustration. The reason I took it

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Speaker 3: out is because people were taking it literally and asking me,

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Speaker 3: where's the research on that? Right, No, it's a metaphor.

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Speaker 3: It's a metaphor, but it goes to what you're saying,

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Speaker 3: and then emotion regulation. Emotion regulation is huge. Life is

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Speaker 3: full of anxieties and frustrations and sadness. These are all

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Speaker 3: good emotions. Because they can propel us into action, says

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Speaker 3: the research. But the other thing the research says is

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Speaker 3: that if we feel those emotions too strongly, they can

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Speaker 3: shut us down, make it harder for us to think.

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Speaker 3: So those are the global skills. The research has identified

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Speaker 3: literally hundreds of skills frequently found lacking in kids with social, emotional,

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Speaker 3: and behavioral challenges. Why do I say kids do all

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Speaker 3: if they can? Because if you have those skills, you're

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Speaker 3: probably doing pretty well, and if you don't, you'd very

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Speaker 3: much like to be doing well, but something's getting in

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Speaker 3: your way.

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Speaker 2: What I love about that phrase as well, Ross is

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Speaker 2: kids do well if they can, says We should trust

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Speaker 2: in the implicit in the innate desire of children to

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Speaker 2: do well. They want to do well, but they have

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Speaker 2: these challenges, these difficulties, these these skills that I yet

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Speaker 2: to be developed.

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Speaker 3: Here's the thing about that that becomes philosophical, and sometimes

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Speaker 3: in philosophical discussions there is no outcome because now you're

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Speaker 3: dueling about philosophies the lagging skills research, and there are

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Speaker 3: hundreds of studies. Now for me seals the philosophical debate.

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Speaker 3: There is no philosophical debate. Kids do all if they

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Speaker 3: can wins. And I'm not into winning and losing. I'm

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Speaker 3: just saying if the alternative philosophy is kids do all

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Speaker 3: if they want to, and that's going to lead us

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Speaker 3: to thinking that this kid doesn't want to do well,

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Speaker 3: and that's going to lead us to thinking it's our

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Speaker 3: job to make the kid wanna do well. The lagging

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Speaker 3: skills research puts that mentality to rest. It's been very

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Speaker 3: popular for a very long time. So I'm always I

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Speaker 3: like engaging in philosophical discussions, but that's one that should

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Speaker 3: have ended a very long time ago thanks to the

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Speaker 3: literature on lagging skills in kids with concerning behaviors.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Russ green He is the author of The Explosive

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Speaker 2: Child and associate clinical professor at Harvard Medical School. What

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Speaker 2: I'm hearing you say is some people will say it's

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Speaker 2: a question of motivation. Others will say it's a question

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Speaker 2: of ability. You're highlighting this is an issue of ability.

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Speaker 2: Kids will do well if they have the ability. It's

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Speaker 2: not whether they're motivated to or not. They just don't

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Speaker 2: have the ability. And I would throw in here as well,

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Speaker 2: context is everything. Just because a child has the ability

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Speaker 2: at seven thirty am doesn't mean that they'll have the

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Speaker 2: ability at six thirty pm.

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Speaker 3: Correct, So there's always life's contextual factors that can make

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Speaker 3: you look better and more capable under some conditions and

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Speaker 3: not others, no doubt about it. I'm much better at

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Speaker 3: seven thirty am than I am at seven thirty pm.

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Speaker 3: Luckily we're doing this early enough for me to still

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Speaker 3: have some brain cells left. But you get the idea.

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Speaker 2: Very much so lagging skills. Lagging skills simply means that

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Speaker 2: things like frustration, tolerance, flexibility and adaptability, problem solved, emotion

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Speaker 2: regulation have not yet been developed. So right now, every

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Speaker 2: parent of a child who is explosed, every parent of

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Speaker 2: a child who is rigid, every parent of a child

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Speaker 2: who has additional needs. Maybe they've got a diagnosis, they're

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Speaker 2: on the spectrum ADHD, whatever it could be. Every parent

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Speaker 2: right now is listening to us and saying, well, how

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Speaker 2: do I give them the skills? I need them to

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Speaker 2: have the skills tonight, right now.

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Speaker 1: Please.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, skills don't develop after listening to a brief podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's for a time poor parent who really does what

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Speaker 1: airswers right now.

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Speaker 2: But if we wanted to develop the skill of flexibility

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Speaker 2: and adaptability.

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Speaker 1: Now you've got a couple of kids. I have six kids.

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Speaker 2: You know what it's like when a child becomes intensely rigid,

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Speaker 2: narrow minded tunnel vision and what they believe is the

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Speaker 2: way that it is, and no amount of logic will

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Speaker 2: convince them.

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Speaker 1: How do we work with a child who.

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Speaker 2: Is inflexible and teach them that skill of psychological flexibility?

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Speaker 3: All right, this is going to take a minute.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if that as a skill that can

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Speaker 3: be taught through direct instruction, though I know many people try.

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Speaker 3: I think it is a skill that is taught more

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Speaker 3: through a process, And the process that we use to

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Speaker 3: enhance that skill is problem solving. Solving problems collaboratively. So

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Speaker 3: let me just rewind the tape a second. The kids

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Speaker 3: who we're thinking about right now don't look bad all

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Speaker 3: the time. They only look bad some of the time.

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Speaker 3: When do they look bad when expectations are being placed

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Speaker 3: upon them that they're having difficulty meeting. That could be

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Speaker 3: anything from difficulty turning off the xbox to come in

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Speaker 3: for dinner, to difficulty getting out of bed by seven

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Speaker 3: am to go to school, to difficulty eating what mom

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Speaker 3: or dad has made for dinner. Those are all expectations.

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Speaker 3: If a kid is having difficulty meeting and expectation, we

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Speaker 3: have a problem that needs to be solved, call those

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Speaker 3: unsolved problems. And as you know, but maybe some of

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Speaker 3: your listeners don't, the collaborative and proactive solutions model articulates

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Speaker 3: a very systematic way of solving problems collaboratively and proactively

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Speaker 3: with kids. So the good news is that once a

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Speaker 3: problem is solved, it doesn't cause concerning behavior anymore. That's good.

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Speaker 3: Both the problem is solved and the concerning behavior has subsided,

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Speaker 3: both very good things. But the process of solving problems

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Speaker 3: with kids collaboratively and outside the heat of the moment

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Speaker 3: proactively also gives kids practice at models for them and

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Speaker 3: enhances the very skills that they're lacking. So now to

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Speaker 3: your question. In the case of flexibility adaptability, let's say

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Speaker 3: we've got a kid who's a very concrete, literal, black

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Speaker 3: and white, rigid thinker. They've already got the solution of

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Speaker 3: that problem, right, but we don't want to hear about

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Speaker 3: their solution yet. We want to hear what's making it

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Speaker 3: hard for them to meet the expectation. First, it would

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Speaker 3: sound like this, I've noticed you've been having difficulty brushing

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Speaker 3: your teeth before going to bed at night. What's up.

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Speaker 3: That's the beginning of the first of the three steps

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Speaker 3: that are involved in solving a problem collaboratively. Let's say

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Speaker 3: this very rigid kid then says, oh, no, no, no, I'm

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Speaker 3: in trouble brushing my teeth before I go to bed

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Speaker 3: at night. I've got my way of doing it, and

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Speaker 3: that's my way of doing it. That's not any typical response, right.

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Speaker 3: The parent would then say, yes, but I'm interested in

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Speaker 3: knowing what's hard for you about meeting that expectation. Now

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Speaker 3: we're on a different subject. Now we're not on the

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Speaker 3: kid's solution. Now we've rewound the tape a little bit

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Speaker 3: back to what's making it hard for them. In the

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Speaker 3: second step, the adult is entering their concern into consideration.

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Speaker 3: Why we think it's important that the expectation be met.

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Speaker 3: In the third step, we're putting our heads together and

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Speaker 3: collaborating on a solution, but one that addresses the concerns

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Speaker 3: of both parties. So what happened in that process for

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Speaker 3: that kid number one? They felt heard this is not

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Speaker 3: my solution versus your solution. It's let's hear your concerns.

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Speaker 3: Let's hear what's getting in your way. Then I'm going

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Speaker 3: to tell you my concerns. So we're listening to each other,

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Speaker 3: we're modeling, we're practicing, listening, empathizing, taking another person's perspective.

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Speaker 3: And then when we get to that third step and

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Speaker 3: we discover that the kid's original solution and the adult's

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Speaker 3: original solution could not conceivably address the concerns of both

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Speaker 3: parties and that we need a different solution, Well, the

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Speaker 3: kid has just gotten one rep in the skill of

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Speaker 3: flexibility adaptability, also one rep on problem solving, one rep

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Speaker 3: on frustration tolerance. And if we did this proactively instead

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Speaker 3: of the heat of the moment, probably some skills that

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Speaker 3: are going to help them regulate their emotions down the

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Speaker 3: road if we get them good enough at this. So,

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Speaker 3: in answer to your question, I told you it was

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Speaker 3: going to take a while. How do you teach skills

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Speaker 3: when you're implementing collaborative and practice solutions By solving problems

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Speaker 3: collaboratively and proactively, just by engaging kids in that process,

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Speaker 3: we model practice and enhance those skills. I should mention

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Speaker 3: one other thing. It's not just the kid who's getting

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Speaker 3: practice at those skills.

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Speaker 2: There are two things that I want to pick up

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Speaker 2: on here. One of them is a comment. I guess

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Speaker 2: it's a little bit self referential. Your three elements, where

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Speaker 2: you sit down and say, hey, I've noticed this, there's

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Speaker 2: some difficulty here. What's up in the model that I developed?

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Speaker 2: I would call that explore. We're literally exploring their world.

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Speaker 2: The next thing that you said is when they provide

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Speaker 2: some resistance or when we're not really making any progress,

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Speaker 2: you say, it's fine, but here's what we need. You

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Speaker 2: talked about how we're outlining the expectation. I call that explain.

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Speaker 2: So we've got an exploration and an explanation. And then

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Speaker 2: when you have that problem solving, that collaborative conversation, I

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Speaker 2: call that in power. So I call that the three e's.

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Speaker 2: It's essentially the same model. You and I ross we're twins.

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Speaker 2: We're teaching the same thing, but with different words.

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Speaker 3: That a much better hand than I do. But anyways, but.

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Speaker 2: This concept is so foreign to so many parents who

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Speaker 2: have been raised with the idea that if they're not

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Speaker 2: doing it. And I've got books on my shelf from

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Speaker 2: very well known, incredibly well educated parenting experts, who essentially

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Speaker 2: are saying, if the kids won't do as they're told,

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Speaker 2: parent hard, you've just got a parent harder. You've got

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Speaker 2: to push more, You've got to raise the stakes. That's

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Speaker 2: more of an observation and a reflection on what you've

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Speaker 2: shared that I just wanted to sort of, I guess,

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Speaker 2: for my happy family's audience, to tie together the way

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Speaker 2: that you're describing it in the way that I do,

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Speaker 2: I think it makes it. It's wonderfully mutually reinforcing. The

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Speaker 2: thing that I do want to pull out of there, though,

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Speaker 2: is I'm listening really carefully of the language that you use,

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Speaker 2: and I feel that you are very careful, explicitly careful

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Speaker 2: about the language you're using. For example, you're talking about

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Speaker 2: a child who's having difficulty or challenge, you're talking about

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Speaker 2: lagging skills, you're talking about the collaborative, proactive way that

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Speaker 2: we engage. Would you just talk a little bit about

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Speaker 2: the language that you're using and the specific words such

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Speaker 2: as difficult behavior.

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Speaker 3: I try not to be judgmental. I find that there's

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Speaker 3: many ways of talking about kids with concerning behaviors that

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Speaker 3: can be loaded. The biggest reason I choose my words

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Speaker 3: carefully is that Because this is such a dramatic departure

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Speaker 3: for so many people, it can be misunderstood quickly, often

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Speaker 3: by people who are taking what they're doing already and saying,

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Speaker 3: all right, this sounds good. How do I force what

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Speaker 3: I'm hearing now into what I'm doing already? And I

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Speaker 3: don't want my language to lend to confusion. I don't

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Speaker 3: want to add to the confusion by being imprecise. This

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Speaker 3: is hard enough of a transition for many caregivers without

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Speaker 3: me confusing them with my own language. So, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to talk about difficult behavior. I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: use terms that are more loaded than that, especially because

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Speaker 3: since I don't think the kid is doing this to here,

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Speaker 3: we go right, push our buttons, yank our chains, test limits,

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Speaker 3: manipulate us, coerce us into capitulating to their wishes. I

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Speaker 3: find those are very loaded terms, very judgmental that suggests

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Speaker 3: that we actually know what's behind what's going on with

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Speaker 3: the kid. None of that based in research. We're solid

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Speaker 3: this is a kid who's lacking skills. I want to

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Speaker 3: make sure that I am referring to this kid in

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Speaker 3: the most humane, compassionate, enlightened, non judgmental way possible.

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Speaker 2: I love the respect for the humanity of the child

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Speaker 2: that is in your approach. We'll continue the conversation tomorrow

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Speaker 2: as we find out what we can do when our

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Speaker 2: children are driving us crazy in the heat of the moment,

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Speaker 2: and also we'll unpack the truth about consequences. The Happy

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Speaker 2: Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive and for more info about

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Speaker 2: making your family happier at check out Ross's website Lives

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Speaker 2: inthe Balance dot org and Happy Families dot com dot

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Speaker 2: You more of this conversation tomorrow