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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family's podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, there are some really hard topics that we have

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Speaker 1: to talk about now, and then this one is one

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Speaker 1: that I think you children should listen to. However, we

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Speaker 1: are going to be talking about body safety and red

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Speaker 1: flags around that, and particularly the topic of grooming. So

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Speaker 1: if you want to listen to it first and get

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Speaker 1: some tips so that you know how to talk to

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Speaker 1: your kids about it, I get it. Here's your little

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Speaker 1: warning so that you can press pause and save it

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Speaker 1: for that. However, like I said, this is a really

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Speaker 1: safe conversation and one that children, I reckon need to

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Speaker 1: hear pretty much at all ages, because unfortunately there are

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Speaker 1: occasionally some people out there who are not safe. My

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Speaker 1: guest on today's podcast is Jay Sanders. Janeene is easier

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Speaker 1: to google. J A Y N E E N. Janeene Sanders, educator,

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Speaker 1: former teacher, written so many books around so many topics

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Speaker 1: for kids, and they are kids' books. We used to

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Speaker 1: sell them in a Happy Family store. I don't know

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Speaker 1: why we're not doing that anymore. We should do that again.

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Speaker 1: They were always really popular, great books and Jay joins

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Speaker 1: me on the podcast today to talk about body safety

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Speaker 1: red flags. Hey, so good to have you here, Jay,

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: So much for having me justin very important topic and

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Speaker 2: I'm glad I'm here to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Let's dig straight in. When we talk about body safety,

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Speaker 1: what are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: These are very age appropriate, essential skills to keep children

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Speaker 2: safe from sexual abuse. As I said, age appropriate, and

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Speaker 2: it will lessen the likelihood that they will be targeted

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Speaker 2: by a sexual predator.

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Speaker 1: How likely is it that our children will be targeted?

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Speaker 1: Do we have Ozzie stats? I know I've seen some stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'd love to know what you've been reading.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a news start out recently it's one in

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Speaker 2: three girls and one in five boys will be sexually

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Speaker 2: abused before they're eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and every parent in this stray is George just

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Speaker 1: dropped yes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And and teachers look in your classrooms as well.

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Speaker 2: So those kids in front of you, like one in

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Speaker 2: three girls, one in five boys, it's sexually abused before eighteen.

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Speaker 2: And these are only the statistics we.

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Speaker 1: Know about, of course, because I'm reported.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, ninety five percent of them will know their perpetrator,

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Speaker 2: so they are in your homes, they are in your

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Speaker 2: community if they are there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this is an unpopular thing to have to answer,

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Speaker 1: But when we look statistically at who poses the most

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Speaker 1: danger to our kids, what stats of you read and

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Speaker 1: what parents need to know about this.

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Speaker 2: Well, children under the age of eight, I believe it's

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Speaker 2: more likely to be a family member, but we're also

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Speaker 2: seeing an increase in adolescent child on child abuse as well.

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Speaker 2: Because of the prevalence of pornography, kids seem to be

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Speaker 2: more and more outplaying what they're saying. So there has

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Speaker 2: been that increase in older children and older children abusing kids.

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Speaker 2: But often you know, it can be a family member

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Speaker 2: or someone close to the child, like a coach or

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Speaker 2: even a teacher. Dare I say yeah, I mean perpetrators.

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Speaker 2: We have to understand the perpetrators go where children are,

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Speaker 2: so they will be in our homes and their communities.

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Speaker 2: And also there is a lot more online grooming as well,

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Speaker 2: but that is for offline abuse as well. So your

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Speaker 2: child might be happily talking to someone you think is marvelous,

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Speaker 2: but they're planning to meet them offline to actually abuse them.

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Speaker 1: Let me pick up three of those threads you've just

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Speaker 1: shared and maybe add some color to the tapestry that

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Speaker 1: we're weaving here. Recently on the podcast, we had a

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Speaker 1: law professor from Queensland University of Technology who has just

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Speaker 1: put together a huge study looking at sexual abuse in

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Speaker 1: Australia and his reports showed that adolescent, as you said,

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Speaker 1: child on child sexual abuse, it's one of the biggest challenges,

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest threats that our young people face now.

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Speaker 1: Second thing that that research showed is that biological parents

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Speaker 1: are the least likely to be involved in abuse. But

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Speaker 1: if there is a non biological male in the home,

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Speaker 1: and I know this is such an unfair and there

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Speaker 1: are so many good men, so many good men who

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Speaker 1: are in step families who just look after those kids

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Speaker 1: like that they are their very own. But unfortunately there

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Speaker 1: are too many who are not good and.

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Speaker 2: There sorry justin but this is a doozy. I think

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Speaker 2: a child in a single parent home is twenty times

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Speaker 2: more likely to be sexually abused, and a child with

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Speaker 2: a disability is two point two times more likely to

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Speaker 2: be sexually abused.

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Speaker 1: They're not nice numbers to hear, especially for because we

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Speaker 1: know that let's say single mumps for example, already doing

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Speaker 1: it hard enough. It's not about shaming Gilder. It's really

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Speaker 1: about saying be aware because these are massive, massive red flags.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that I wanted to highlight here is

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Speaker 1: just the relationship between age and abuse. So all the

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Speaker 1: data that I seen over the decades shows that the

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Speaker 1: younger your child is, the greater the likelihood of abuse.

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Speaker 1: As they get older, the children become less likely to

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Speaker 1: be abused. Of course there is still the possibility that

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Speaker 1: could happen, but kids under two are the most likely,

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Speaker 1: followed by kids under five, followed by kids under eight,

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Speaker 1: following kids under ten or eleven, and then once again

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Speaker 1: to their adolescent years. The likelihood drops off quite substantially

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Speaker 1: there because well, they've learned how to protect themselves better.

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Speaker 1: They're just less vulnerable.

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Speaker 2: Heard never too young to start teaching your kids body safety,

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Speaker 2: which you know, which is age appropriate. And it's a

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Speaker 2: different kind of abuse too, Like younger children, they're using

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Speaker 2: the kind of the threats and the secrecy, whereas with

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Speaker 2: older kids it's more about oh, I see no one's

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Speaker 2: listening to you. It's more loved based. I really care

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Speaker 2: about you, I'm in love with you.

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Speaker 1: So the kind of the type of abuse chips makes

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Speaker 1: my skin crawl hearing you even say it. It's just

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Speaker 1: just awful. Here's the hard question, and this is where

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Speaker 1: we really need to spend the bulk of our time

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Speaker 1: in this conversation. Jay, if I'm a parent, I'm listening

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Speaker 1: to this conversation, I'm going on my goodness, one in three,

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Speaker 1: one in five, eighteen under the age of two, like

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Speaker 1: all of these numbers and these awful realities. First of all,

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Speaker 1: how do I how do I teach this to my child?

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Speaker 1: How do I teach body safety to my child? And

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Speaker 1: we need to do this in a developmentally appropriate way.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with our younger children, then move into

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Speaker 1: slightly older children.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Now keeping in mind I was I am

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Speaker 2: a parent there my children are adults. But I did

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Speaker 2: this too, I mean, I taught body safety to my kids.

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Speaker 2: So we begin when as soon as your child is born,

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Speaker 2: you start to use the correct names for the body.

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Speaker 2: You know you have penis, bulva, vagina, You use the

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Speaker 2: creck terms. Don't shy away from them. A, because we

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Speaker 2: don't want our kids to be ashamed of those terms. B.

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Speaker 2: If it ever was a chance that the child was

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Speaker 2: actually abused, they could tell you exactly where. Three they

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Speaker 2: need to know exactly these terms in order for this

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Speaker 2: to hold any volition in a court of law. And

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Speaker 2: the fourth one is that if your child says know

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Speaker 2: or stop to a perpetrator or uses the correct term,

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Speaker 2: they go, oh my gosh. This child has been educated

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Speaker 2: with the correct terms and they're educated to tell.

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Speaker 1: So how do we do that? I mean, obviously, when

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Speaker 1: you're in the bath with the kids, you say do

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Speaker 1: you want to wash you? Or you have to wash you?

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Speaker 1: And then you use the appropriate terminology. But beyond that,

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Speaker 1: what other strategies do we have outside of we're in

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, we're giving the kids a wash because they're

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Speaker 1: not quite big enough to wash themselves.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well that's the beginning. So then from there, when

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Speaker 2: they're under two and they're not verbal, you would talk

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Speaker 2: about what you're doing with their body, like, oh, I'm

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Speaker 2: just putting yourselfs on because you know, it's really cold

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Speaker 2: outside and we need some war MOI sock. So you

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Speaker 2: you're talking about what you're doing around their body. Now

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Speaker 2: they can't speak back to you, of course, but you

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Speaker 2: are not just putting their socks on or putting their

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Speaker 2: singland on. You're telling them about what is actually happening

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Speaker 2: within that body space. Then as they become more verbal,

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Speaker 2: you teach them about what they have a body boundary. Now,

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Speaker 2: a body boundary is an invisible space around their body,

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Speaker 2: and just because it's invisible doesn't mean it isn't there.

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Speaker 2: So people need to ask consent before they come enter

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Speaker 2: into your body boundary. So you can't just come along

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Speaker 2: as a grandmar and just give that child a hug

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Speaker 2: and grab them. You need to ask can I have

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Speaker 2: a hug? But this is hard for some older people

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Speaker 2: in my age bracket because you know they used to

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Speaker 2: just saying, hey, my grandchild, I'm just going to.

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Speaker 1: They grab that.

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Speaker 2: Hey, what are you teaching them? You're teaching them that

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Speaker 2: their voice doesn't matter. But then it's what they their

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Speaker 2: rights don't matter. Now they might not be in the

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Speaker 2: mood for hug, like we all sometimes aren't in mood

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Speaker 2: for a hug. So by asking them can I have

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Speaker 2: a hug, they have a choice. They can hug you yes, happily,

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Speaker 2: that's consent, or they can say no, I'll give you

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Speaker 2: a high five, but not today. That's okay.

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Speaker 1: I think it's worth jumping in herej and just highlighting.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people hear this and they say, oh,

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Speaker 1: my goodness, this is excessive, this is over the top.

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Speaker 1: Of course they want to hug their grandparents. And my

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Speaker 1: response to that is, yeah, they do. You can almost

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Speaker 1: bet your boots that they do. But it's so easy

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Speaker 1: to say, are we hugging today? Are you ready for

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Speaker 1: a great big You can invite them in, and in

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Speaker 1: any typically developing, normal, healthy relationship, that kid is going

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Speaker 1: to say, bring it on. They're going to run into

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Speaker 1: your arms and give you a great, big hug.

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Speaker 2: You know what.

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Speaker 1: I do the same thing with my wife. I say

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Speaker 1: can I give you a kiss? Or do you feel

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Speaker 1: like hugging? Or do you want some space. It's like,

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Speaker 1: it's a really simple thing to just check in and

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Speaker 1: you're met with that warmth and that delight ninety nine

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Speaker 1: point nine percent of the time.

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Speaker 2: And you're modeling that your children to justin, which is great.

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Speaker 2: You're modeling that language of consent and because you know,

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Speaker 2: if I were grandmother, I would love that I asked

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Speaker 2: my child for a hug, a grandchild for a hug,

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Speaker 2: and they said yes enthusiastically rather than just taking it.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's so much more rewarding when they really

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Speaker 2: do want to give you that more.

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Speaker 1: You're right, it enriches the experience. Even when I'm let's

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Speaker 1: say I'm giving a presentation at a conference or something

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Speaker 1: like that, people will often come up and say, can

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Speaker 1: I get a photo? Can we get a selfie so

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Speaker 1: I can show the kids that I was with the

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Speaker 1: Guy Channel Nines TV show. And as we post for

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Speaker 1: the photo, I'll often say, are we touching or you're

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Speaker 1: not touching? Because people will very often want to put

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Speaker 1: their arms around my shoulder or or or have that

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Speaker 1: sense of closeness. But I mean, you're never going to

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Speaker 1: just throw your arm around someone and do that. And

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Speaker 1: people always look at me and laugh and go, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course because they've already got their arm around me

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Speaker 1: or whatever.

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Speaker 2: That's right. But boundaries and consent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the modeling is the modeling emphasizes the boundary and

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Speaker 1: the consent, and it makes the experience richer. People think

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Speaker 1: it's going to attract from it, but it.

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Speaker 2: Makes it better absolutely. And that way, you're teaching this

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Speaker 2: language of consent from a very young age, which is

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Speaker 2: only going to be fabulous for when your children become

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Speaker 2: teenagers and when they become adults, and you know, consent

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Speaker 2: is very very important. So right now, when they're little,

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Speaker 2: we're just talking about consent in terms of their body boundary.

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Speaker 2: So there's nothing to do with anything to do with sex.

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Speaker 2: It's all about just respecting their rights to be greeted

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Speaker 2: or hugged or touched when it's their choice.

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Speaker 1: But even when you're tickling them they say stop, stop, stop,

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Speaker 1: like playful, playful touch is still my kids love it.

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Speaker 1: But when they say stop, I'm like, okay, I'll stop,

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Speaker 1: but you tell me when you want to go again,

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Speaker 1: and we'll have tickle wars and it's delightful and it's wonderful.

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Speaker 1: But there's got to be a willingness to stop when

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Speaker 1: the kids have had enough, and then to dive back

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Speaker 1: in when they're ready to go again.

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Speaker 2: Well, tickling is actually one of the perfect trade and

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Speaker 2: grooming techniques because it's a way to disensitize a child.

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Speaker 2: Tickle tickle, tickle, Oh sorry, I didn't mean to touch

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Speaker 2: you there, Tickle tickle tickle, didn't did it again. It's

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Speaker 2: a way to desensor host children. So absolutely, if you're

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Speaker 2: tickling a child and they're having a great time and

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Speaker 2: they say, stuff, you stop.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know if I want to tick on

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Speaker 1: my kids like that. That's just awful, isn't it. I

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Speaker 1: can't believe that.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I don't mean to do that. Like this is

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Speaker 2: this is a great way to play with your children,

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Speaker 2: but it has to be that your child is consenting.

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Speaker 2: Your child is happy about this, and yeah, that's what

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Speaker 2: you need to do. So the next thing after bodyboundaries

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Speaker 2: and consent is you need to have a safety network.

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Speaker 2: So your child needs to have three to five adults.

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Speaker 2: One should not be in the family that they would

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Speaker 2: go to whenever they feel unsafe. Now they can it

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Speaker 2: can be a teacher, can be mama, dad, but it

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Speaker 2: has to be their choice. Now you might think, oh,

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Speaker 2: they're going to put me and put dad, Well they

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Speaker 2: may not. They may put you, and they might put

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Speaker 2: their grammar. So they pick three to five adults to

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Speaker 2: be on their safety network. We usually put it on

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Speaker 2: a hand. We outlie the child's hand and they write

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Speaker 2: the people that they want on their safety network hand

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Speaker 2: and that is put in a prominent so that anyone

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Speaker 2: entering your home knows that you're doing body safety with

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Speaker 2: your children. And these are the people on their safety network.

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Speaker 2: So that is a very important part of it.

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Speaker 1: Jay, there's even more protective behaviors. You've written all about

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Speaker 1: them in a brand new book called Body Safety Red Flags.

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Speaker 1: It's such a big topic and it's such a confronting one.

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Speaker 1: I think this is this kind of thing where parents

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Speaker 1: would say, I do need some guidance, I do need

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Speaker 1: some help. This is why you're write, right.

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Speaker 2: Really, it's exactly why I write, and I write always

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Speaker 2: on body safety and consent. I have another book called

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Speaker 2: My Body When I Say Goes, And if I had

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Speaker 2: to choose one book for every parent to read to

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Speaker 2: their child, it would be that book because it has

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Speaker 2: all these skills that I was outlining. Particularly, there's another

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Speaker 2: one as well, between the difference between secrets and survivors.

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Speaker 2: So all of that is in the book. You know,

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Speaker 2: and children are visual learners, so this is such a

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Speaker 2: great way to unpack and have these ongoing discussions with

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Speaker 2: your children. There's never just one discussion. It's ongoing. And

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Speaker 2: you know what a great way if you're having these

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Speaker 2: open conversations with your children from a young age, as

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Speaker 2: they get old, guess what they're going to come to

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Speaker 2: you because you're their safe person. You're their person who

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Speaker 2: they can talk to about anything, so there is no

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Speaker 2: downside too.

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Speaker 1: The book is called Body Safety Red Flags. You can

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Speaker 1: pre order it now at Jay's website. Jay, what are

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Speaker 1: the details for people who want to get this and

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Speaker 1: your other resources? Because you've got about twenty or thirty

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Speaker 1: books you've written now and they're all useful.

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Speaker 2: They're all useful. Yes, indeed, now if you have little

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Speaker 2: children from two to six, we have a pack called

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Speaker 2: Little Big Chats with has that in. But you can

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Speaker 2: get all my books and free resources. There's actually a

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Speaker 2: free poster that you could put on, a body Safety

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Speaker 2: rules poster you could put on your refrigerator. Again, sends

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Speaker 2: a signed when perpetrators in my house that your kids

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Speaker 2: are educated to tell. But the website is ww dot

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Speaker 2: E two with the numeral two E publishing dot info

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Speaker 2: all So.

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Speaker 1: That's www dot E t E publishing dot info.

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Speaker 2: That's it, all right.

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Speaker 1: We'll linked to that in the show notes. Jay Sanders

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Speaker 1: is an author, an educator, a former teacher, and someone

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Speaker 1: who cares deeply about your kids and their safety and welfare.

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Speaker 1: The book Body Safety Red Flags. So glad we've got

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Speaker 1: to have this conversation. I hope that everybody buys it

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Speaker 1: and talks to their young ones about it, because I

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Speaker 1: can't believe I just said young ones. That makes me

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm about fifteen years older than I really am.

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Speaker 1: She talk to your kids about I can't gosh, Hey, J,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me, even even if I'm

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Speaker 1: sounding like I'm too old to be doing this and me,

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Speaker 1: oh my goodness. Hey, I have a great day and

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Speaker 1: really appreciate the input. The Happy Families podcast is produced

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Speaker 1: by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Once again, we'll link

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Speaker 1: to all of Jay's resources in our show notes, and

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Speaker 1: if you'd like to know more about that previous podcast,

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Speaker 1: I hear too that we will also link to that

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Speaker 1: one in the show notes and add a whole lot

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Speaker 1: more information about making your family happier and safer at

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Speaker 1: happy families dot com dot au