1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: How I Work is having a little break over the 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,439 Speaker 1: festive season, so I've picked a handful of my absolute 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: favorite episodes from the last eighteen months to play for 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: you in this best of series. I hope you enjoy, 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: and I'll be back with new episodes twice weekly from 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: January twenty eight. What if the simple chat by the 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: water cooler could be the key to unlocking your team's 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: full potential. What if those regular catch ups you grudgingly 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: schedule with your direct reports were actually gold mines waiting 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: to be explored. For some of us, one on one 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: meetings are just another box to tick in the endless 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: checklist of managerial duties. But what if I told you 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: that revolutionizing that one hour could change everything. In today's 14 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: episode of How I Work, we're diving deep with Professor 15 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: Steven Rogelberg, a global expert, on how to have better 16 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: mind and how we can turn routine check ins into 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: opportunities for real growth, connection, and insightful leadership. Stephen's not 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: just an academic wizard waxing lyrical about hypotheticals. Oh No, 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: He's in the trenches with us, applying these insights into 20 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 1: his own work every single day. So let's transform your 21 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: workplace interactions and discover just how powerful a simple conversation 22 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: can be. My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an 23 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and founder of behavior change consultancy Inventium, and 24 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: this is how I work a show about how to 25 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: help you get so much more out of the hours 26 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: in your day. Now onto my chat with Stephen, which 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: starts with me asking him if there was a specific 28 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: experience he had that got him thinking differently about one 29 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: on one meetings. 30 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: I think it was more of a general experience and 31 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: having a one on one meeting with someone that reports 32 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: into me and just seeing how she experienced it, you know, 33 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: like she left their feeling so motivated, so connected, and 34 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: so engaged. And the fact that those emotions happened for 35 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: her just through me dedicating this twenty five minutes of 36 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 2: time was amazing. Right to be able to give that 37 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: gift to someone to feel seen, and so that was 38 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: like a critical incident that just stuck with me that 39 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: this is an incredible opportunity. And that's why I was 40 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 2: so excited to write the book because it helped shine 41 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: a light on how to do it aligned with science 42 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: so that people would get the types of outcomes that 43 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: they're hoping for. 44 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: I think it's great because I feel like a lot 45 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: of people see one on ones as a necessary evil 46 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: that typically clogs up their diary on Mondays. I feel 47 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: like Monday seems to be a very popular day for 48 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: one on ones. How do you know if something warrants 49 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: a one on one meeting in the first place. 50 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: You shouldn't even have to make that decision. A one 51 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: on one meeting cadence should happen no matter what. One 52 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 2: on ones are meetings for the direct, not for the manager, 53 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: So whether the manager wants it or not is irrelevant. Right, 54 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: You're doing it for the direct So your job is 55 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: to help them realize all the things that could be 56 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 2: talked about in the one on one and then tee 57 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: them up to decide on the types of issues and topics. 58 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: You know, where they need support, where are they confronting obstacles. 59 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 2: What you are doing as a leader is you're providing 60 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: a structure. You're saying, listen, I'm all in for you, right, 61 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: I want you to thrive, and I'm committed to doing 62 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: my part. And one piece of my part is you 63 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 2: knowing that every week or every other week we are 64 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: going to have this dedicated time for you. It's not 65 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: about me checking up on all your tasks and monitoring 66 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: your work. It's about you sharing what you need to share, 67 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: bringing up challenges that you have, talking big picture, small picture, 68 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: long term, short term. So it's not a negotiable. It's 69 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: not something that I do only if I have time. 70 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: It's something I'm committed because I'm committed to employee thriving. 71 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 1: It's such a mindset shift, is it is? Because I 72 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: feel like often it feels like a two way straight 73 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: as opposed to it's all about the employee as opposed 74 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: to know about the manager's needs. 75 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, it is a gift you're giving 76 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: the employee, but it's a gift you're benefiting from, right 77 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: because these tools, this approach helps your employees to thrive. Right. 78 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: And we know that managers are evaluated based on the 79 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 2: success of the directs. So as your direct strive as 80 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: they are more aligned team performance excel excels and this 81 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: is all a good reflection on you as a manager. 82 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: So it's an activity where the immediate benefit goes to 83 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 2: the direct But it's a mistake to think that the 84 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 2: manager is not directly benefiting from it. 85 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: That's so true. I mean, there is the old adage 86 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: that you join an organization, but you leave a manager. 87 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 2: Sorry, exactly exactly, And this is an activity where this 88 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: is your opportunity, this is your stage as a leader. 89 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: A one on one conversation is where your values truly 90 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: come to life. And so we can espouse certain values, 91 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 2: but we do what one on one we're living those values. 92 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: Sorry, as in your own life you work within in 93 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: a university, how often do you meet with your teammates? 94 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 2: So you know, one of the things that was different 95 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 2: about this book from my previous one. So the previous 96 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 2: one was a surprising science and meetings, and we had 97 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: a ton of science to talk about this one. The 98 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: title of the book is the Art and Science of 99 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: one on one meetings, because they're truly an art to it. 100 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: And so this book lays out a variety of choices, 101 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: but ultimately the leader has to make choices based on 102 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 2: who they are, the relationship with their people, the type 103 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 2: of work they do. So how I meet with my 104 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: people is going to be different than other people's work. 105 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: You know, in my line of work, we don't work 106 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: as a team, right, academics. Research generally tends to be 107 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: more individual, project based work that doesn't necessarily interconnect with others. 108 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: So for our type of work, having one on ones 109 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: every other week works completely fine, and it can be 110 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: extremely short, but they just become more predictable check ins. 111 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: You know, where the doctoral student or the employee, whichever one, 112 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: they know that they have this time. You know, if 113 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: you look at the research and more traditional occupations, generally 114 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: the weekly cadence or the other week every other week 115 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: cadence yielded the most benefits in terms of employee engagement, right, 116 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: because when you have more frequent ones, you're able to 117 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: make the connections. You're able to say, okay, we talked 118 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: about this last how's that going. You build momentum, there's 119 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,679 Speaker 2: so many positive things that happen from it. So in general, 120 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: I recommend managers to do it weekly, but depending on 121 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: the type of work and role, it could be every 122 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: other week like myself. And interestingly, the more senior employees 123 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: they actually desired more one on ones than the junior employees. 124 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: But what I would suggest is because senior employees they 125 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: know how important these are, they know that these things 126 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: can be transformative to careers. Thus they know the value 127 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: of having this dedicated time with their manager. 128 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: So I want to now talk through a typical process 129 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: for a one on one. So I want to start 130 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: with preparation, and I'm curious for you, as the manager, 131 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: what preparation goes into your one on one meetings. 132 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 2: So it starts with always reviewing your notes, right, because 133 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: so much of the value of these conversations is when 134 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 2: there are threads. So the one on ones allow you 135 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: to start creating this diary in sense for each employee. 136 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: It also starts with mindset. I'm personally very moved by 137 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: research on the Pygmalion effect, and this initially came from education, 138 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: where they found that the teachers attitudes about their students 139 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 2: really shaped how they behave towards those students. So if 140 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 2: a teacher thought that the students were lazy, they behaved 141 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: in ways that basically made them lazy. The same thing 142 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: happens in one on ones. If you go into your 143 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,479 Speaker 2: one on one thinking that this employee is unchangeable, unmotivated, 144 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: you're actually not going to be a real active listener. 145 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: You're not going to be providing support. We also need 146 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 2: to make sure we check our mindset around the job 147 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 2: we have in the one on one the job, we 148 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: have to facilitate, to ask good questions, to learn right, 149 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 2: to get that other party to be willing to share 150 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: and express. Now, we need to make sure that we're facilitating, 151 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: we're engaging, we're learning, we're asking why tell me more? 152 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: And even that is hard because often it's the case 153 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 2: that when we ask someone, well, how would you handle it? 154 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 2: When they give an answer, we are quick to replace 155 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: it with our own answer, and that's thing that's not helpful. Right, 156 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: So what we want to do is when we hear 157 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: the employee solution, if there's not a big and meaningful 158 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: gap between their ideas and ours, we let it go 159 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: right because that conveys respect and trust, and then the 160 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 2: employee will be more motivated to act. Now, if the 161 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 2: gap is big and it is meaningful, sure intervene, but 162 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: otherwise pick your battles carefully. Then the closing phase, Boy, 163 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: that is one of the most critical pieces. So the 164 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 2: close is really about recapping what everyone committed to, getting 165 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 2: clarity around that, and then ideally trying to end a 166 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 2: more positive note. Right, Even if difficult issues were talked about, 167 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: we can try to create some motivational self efficacy building 168 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: types of statements that leave people kind of in a 169 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 2: better place. 170 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: I want to delve into a few of those things 171 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: that you've just covered back on preparation. What do you 172 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: suggest to your direct reports to get the most out 173 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: of the one on ones. Is there a preparation rituals 174 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: or things that you recommend to them. 175 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: I love that. I definitely spend time on that in 176 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 2: the book because I think that while the manager clearly 177 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: has the largest role, it takes two to tango, and 178 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 2: the direct has a responsibility. So I lay out what 179 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 2: we found in the research or some of the key 180 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: behaviors that directs can do. Let me share a couple. 181 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: So one of them is really reflecting on what you need, 182 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 2: because you can't get what you need unless you know 183 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 2: what you need. So the direct really has to think, 184 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: stop and think, and they have to decide that this 185 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: meeting will be successful if I have this, this, and 186 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 2: this cupboard that takes work. And most directs don't do 187 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: that and they have to. So that's a critical success 188 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: factor that's on them. Then obviously being engaged, interacting, expressing gratitude, 189 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: not getting defensive. All those behaviors they might actually have 190 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: to be more active and rapport building because some managers 191 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 2: are not adept at it, so maybe they have to 192 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 2: kick that up to build that connection. They have to 193 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: be willing to disclose, right, because again, you can't get 194 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: what you want unless you disclose what you want. And 195 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: then the final thing I'll just share is you have 196 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 2: to be willing to ask for help, but how you 197 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 2: ask for help matters, and that the research generally shows 198 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: that there's two basic approaches to help seeking, ones called 199 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 2: autonomous help seeking. The other one's dependent help seeking. Dependent 200 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 2: help seeking is really where you're just looking someone to 201 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: save you, right to solve the problem. Autonomous help seeking 202 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 2: is really about you gathering what you need to solve 203 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: your challenge. And then obviously the old piece that we 204 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 2: just don't want to forget is they need to follow 205 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 2: through on commitments that they make. 206 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: I'm wondering when you say, have a new doctoral student 207 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: that you're supervising and you're setting up the cadence of 208 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: one on one meetings, do you almost have like an 209 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: induction to the one on one so that you're aligned 210 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: in your expectations? What does that look like in your life? 211 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: So, for example, when we're creating our plan of action 212 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 2: and it does need, it does need a lightweight agenda 213 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: of sorts. Is that I'm going to be involving you 214 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 2: in the creation of that agenda. Right, your voice is 215 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 2: going to drive what we talk about. That's a key signal, 216 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: right that this is not about me, and so that 217 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: will be another piece to create that foundation of having 218 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 2: this meaningful discourse and then clearly my BIB behaviors throughout, Like, 219 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 2: I'm not going to fall into a status update trap. Right, 220 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: if I want to know exactly what you're doing on 221 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 2: task X, I'm going to hold my tongue unless it 222 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: comes up naturally, because I can always schedule another meeting. 223 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: I can always send you an email saying what's going 224 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: on with project X, Right, So I have that ability. 225 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: So this meeting, though, is different. This meeting is about 226 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: you and what you want to talk about. And so 227 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 2: in general, you know, I think the ultimate goal is 228 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 2: you keep sending signals that this is a meeting for 229 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 2: the direct by firmly engaging them in the creation of 230 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: the plan, and then behave in a way consistent with 231 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: that and then set it up as a values consistent 232 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: behavior activity. 233 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: So let's talk about in the one on one. Now, 234 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: and you're talking about setting up an agenda or setting 235 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: up a plan, what in your own life does that 236 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: agenda typically look like for a one on one. 237 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: There's two approaches that I use that I also talk 238 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: about in the book. So the first approach I'll use 239 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 2: is a list approach, where I'll tell my employee listens, 240 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: I want you to create a list of things that 241 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: you want to talk about. I'll do the same, but 242 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 2: your list is going to get priority. I'm only going 243 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: to intersperse my items to the extent that they come 244 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: up naturally, and if we have time, I'll bring up 245 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: my items. But when you create your list, I want 246 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: you to think big picture, small picture, short term, long term. 247 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: I want you to think team, organization, individual, I want 248 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: you to think everything. I want you to tee up 249 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: a lot of possibilities for you. So another approach that 250 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: I've had some people prefer is having a set of 251 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 2: core questions that I ask and so we can negotiate 252 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: that together. So, for example, we can have a core 253 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: question of what are the biggest obstacles that you're experiencing. 254 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: What are areas that you think I might be able 255 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: to help you with, and so we can have a 256 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: set of four or five core questions and then the 257 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: direct is still clearly driving the conversation. I'm just providing 258 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: a structure, so I alternate between those two approaches. The 259 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 2: other thing I'll just throw out there, which I think 260 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: is kind of interesting, is that, you know, I want 261 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: to keep these things fresh, So even if something is 262 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 2: working after a month or two, I'm going to change 263 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 2: it up, right. I don't want these to become stale. 264 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: So one question that a lot of leaders ask, and 265 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: it'd be a question that I often asked, is the 266 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: simple question how are you? How are you right? That's 267 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: pretty much a foundational questions. Sadly, that question doesn't work 268 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: because when you ask someone how are you, it generally 269 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: promotes just automatic responses I'm fine, good, pretty good, great, right. 270 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: You don't get necessarily thoughtful responses. But here's a tweak. 271 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: I will say to someone, so, considering everything you know 272 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: in work out of work on a scale of one 273 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: to ten, with one being horrible, ten being great, how 274 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 2: are you showing up today? Now I'm going to get 275 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: different responses. I'm going to get scores of five. I'm 276 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: going to get six's I'm going to get sevens, and 277 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: now I have something to work with. Now I can say, 278 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 2: tell me why you're a six, tell me what's keeping 279 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 2: you from being a ten? Right? So you can see 280 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: that by playing with some of the response options, I'm 281 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 2: able to get a lot more meaningful conversation with my people. 282 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: So I'm really trying to assess what that person is 283 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 2: willing to do and not. Do you know another example 284 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: of the person doesn't tend to disclose readily, Then I 285 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 2: will look for opportunities to be appropriately vulnerable right so 286 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: they can see me do it. And that also creates 287 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: some psychological safety. 288 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: What strategies do you have when a one on one 289 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: is going off topic or it's feeling like it's unproductive, 290 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 1: How do you identify that and then bring it back 291 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: on track. 292 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 2: I'll say that we will have a plan of action. 293 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: But if my direct winds up focusing on just the 294 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 2: first item and they keep going and going and going, 295 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 2: I'll stop them and say, I know that you brought 296 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 2: up some other issues. I fear we're not going to 297 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 2: get to that, but I am totally fine with that 298 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 2: if that's what you want. So my job is not 299 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 2: to stop them, is just to remind them of their choice. 300 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 2: And I'm going to respect their choice because if they 301 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: want to talk about one particular thing, that's because they 302 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: want to talk about one particular thing, and that's okay. 303 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: We will be back soon with Stephen talking about the 304 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: perfect way to bring a one on one meeting to 305 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: a close. If you're looking for more tips to improve 306 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: the way you work and live, I write a weekly 307 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply tips 308 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: to improve your life. You can sign up for that 309 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: at Amantha dot substack dot com. That's Amantha dot substack 310 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: dot com. How about bringing the meeting to a close. 311 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: So I guess I'm assuming you wanted to end on 312 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: a note that feels motivating, so they're excited to go 313 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: back out into the world and do their thing. How 314 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: do you bring it to an end? 315 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: The close is definitely where you bring things together. You 316 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 2: know you're really deciding, So for me, it's clarifying what 317 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 2: we all decided on. You know, what did I commit to? 318 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 2: What did you commit to? Also, the closes where I'll 319 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 2: start to look at my notes to make sure I 320 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: got it right, So I might say, hey, so did 321 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: I get this right? And by the way, as an aside, 322 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 2: what we found in the research is the best way 323 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 2: to take notes is actually the old school pen and paper. 324 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: That old school note taking was just like this signal 325 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 2: that you're more engaged and focused on the direct I 326 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: thought that was kind of a fun finding. So our 327 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: challenge as a manager, even when we've had a difficult 328 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 2: conversation is to find some nuggets that allow us to 329 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: help build someone's self esteem and at least our feelings 330 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 2: about them. Right, So if I say to you, list, 331 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: I know we talked about some tough stuff, but I 332 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 2: want you to know I believe in you. I think 333 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 2: you can do this. I've seen you do this before. 334 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 2: I've seen you have this challenge or this challenge and 335 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 2: you overcame it. And I'm there and I'm with you. 336 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: And so we can always find something that we can 337 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 2: take out of our bag of tricks. And I'm not 338 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 2: saying insincere, I'm still being sincere, but we can always 339 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 2: find something that allows the conversation to end with a 340 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 2: little less heaviness, a little bit more optimism, and we 341 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 2: want to seek that out. 342 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: How do you evalue the success or the impact of 343 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 1: your one. 344 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 2: On ones love it. You asked such awesome questions by 345 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: the way, So yes, evaluation really really is important. So 346 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 2: after one on one, the manager can certainly reflect and 347 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 2: think about the quality. But sadly our perceptions are not 348 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: always accurate. We can make them a little bit more 349 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 2: accurate by changing perspective. So tell ourselves, Okay, let's evaluate it. 350 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 2: But let's pretend we're the direct report doing it. We 351 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 2: could focus on specifics, so let's think about three specific 352 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: things that went well, three specific things that didn't. We 353 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: can focus on particular behavior, so I created all these 354 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 2: behavioral checklists so we could reflect on those behaviors to 355 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 2: see if we did that. So that's a self evaluation. 356 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: But by far the most important thing to do is 357 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: to solicit feedback, right input, And so we can do 358 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: this through anonymous surveys where periodically we collect some data. 359 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 2: I am particularly keen on this product that was created 360 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: by this company called Cairos up in Canada, and it's 361 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 2: a plug in that plug isn't like into your outlook 362 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: and then basically periodically it will survey your employees and 363 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: create a dashboard of their experiences in one on ones. 364 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: So managers can really learn I mean how fabulous. So 365 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 2: evaluation absolutely matters. And then once you collect those data, 366 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 2: you have to learn, reflect, try new things, and you 367 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 2: need to tell your direct So for me, I'll tell 368 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 2: my folks here's what I would like to try differently 369 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 2: to see if we can get value. But please know, 370 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 2: in two months if this isn't working, let's ditch it 371 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 2: try something else. So we have to have a disposition 372 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 2: to change and an honest ability to reflect and ditch 373 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: things that aren't working. 374 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: I want to also ask about I guess the medium 375 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: that you use for one on ones, and it's changed 376 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: so much in the last four or so years in 377 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: terms of the options being phone or face to face 378 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: or virtual where you can see the person but they're 379 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: not with you. I'm wondering what has your go to 380 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: been and what does the research say? 381 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 2: So my go to is whatever the direct wants. That's 382 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: my go to. So I will ask, folks, how would 383 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: you like to do this? I have done some research 384 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: on the topic as well, and the most commonly desired 385 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 2: place to have a one on one is actually the 386 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 2: manager's office, nearly tied with that as a conference room. 387 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: The least desired place was the direct's office. Interest in 388 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,239 Speaker 2: taking a walk and meeting at coffee shops tended to 389 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: be more bimodal, where some people loving that idea and 390 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 2: other people not loving it. I didn't find any spaces 391 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: that led to better one on ones. You know, it's 392 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: just where people might feel more comfortable. But ultimately space 393 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: doesn't drive six. You know, it's the utterances and the communication, 394 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 2: the facilitation that fundamentally drives success. So for me, I again, 395 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 2: I want to keep looking for signals. 396 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: I'm curious for remote first organizations where it's not an 397 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 1: option to meet in the manager's office or the conference 398 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: room or anything like that. You're basically choosing between a 399 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: phone conversation or a virtual meeting. And I completely take 400 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: your point, and I love that question, just asking your 401 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: direct report what would they prefer? But also is there 402 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: any research on which is actually better for connection and communication. 403 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: We do know that visual cues are helpful for deciphering 404 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: emotions right and for a richer communication. So generally what's 405 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: emerged in our data is that being able to see 406 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 2: a face when you're having difficult conversations is the desired option. 407 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,479 Speaker 2: And so if you have a remote only workforce, I 408 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 2: definitely think having video on zoom type thing is the best. 409 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: But as I mean, every conversation has to be like that. 410 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 2: There absolutely could be value of just taking a walk 411 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 2: on the telephone because it feels different and I like that, right, 412 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 2: I like these one on ones feeling different at times. 413 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: So I would say for me personally, and what I 414 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: would advocate for others is just mix it up. 415 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: I'm curious about your views on how AI tools can 416 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: help meetings versus hinder them. I have personally been using 417 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: Fireflies in the last few months, which just automatically joins 418 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: all my meetings and takes notes and I can refer 419 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: back to it. Nick gives me some interesting statistics. But 420 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: I'm also intrigued by what you shared around pen and 421 00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: paper is actually perceived as the best way to take there. 422 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: So what's been your experience with AI mating tools? 423 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: So, first, I am a big fan of AI, so 424 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 2: I'm not resisting the technology. I leverage it all the 425 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 2: time in my different activities, so I'm a fan, But 426 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: I actually don't think it has a strong place in 427 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 2: one on ones because one on ones are about connection. 428 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 2: They're truly about connection. It's one of those few times 429 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 2: that we're dedicating to connection, and so I think that's 430 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: where that old school note taking, right. It feels more real, 431 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 2: more meaningful, and I think it helps. It's again a 432 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 2: signal of engagement. And so while AI could be more efficient, 433 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: it's actually counter to the hope of one on ones, 434 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: which is that deep connection. The one place I would 435 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 2: consider using AI when it comes to one on ones 436 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: is over time. For each of my directs, I'm basically 437 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 2: collecting in a sense, a diary of notes. One thing 438 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 2: that AI is awesome with is I could take that 439 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 2: diary of notes, right, So if I've transcribed it into 440 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 2: a shared document, which is what I typically do, I 441 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: can feed it into AI and I could say, what 442 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 2: are the themes that you're noticing. I can even assign dates 443 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 2: and say are you noticing changes over time? AI handles 444 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: tasks like that really really well, so it can do 445 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 2: a thematic analysis, and that could be really helpful, you know, 446 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 2: especially as I move into performance appraisal season, right, I'll 447 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 2: have those types of data, So I see AI as 448 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 2: more of a back end tool, you know, to help 449 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: me make more broader sense of the data. 450 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: Daven I have absolutely loved chatting to you. I mentioned 451 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: before we hit recording that your name came up and 452 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: your research came up in my workplace at Inventium literally 453 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: the day before I got to reach out from your 454 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,719 Speaker 1: people about coming on how I work, so the timing 455 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: was fortuitous. I have loved this chat. I'm going to 456 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: insist that all my team listen to it. Thank you 457 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: so much for putting such great work into the world. 458 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: I truly appreciate it. 459 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I appreciate that your questions were fabulous, 460 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: and I definitely hope people check out my website because 461 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: I have a ton of resources on there. So it's 462 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 2: just Steven Rogelberg dot com. I'm sure you'll have it 463 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 2: in your show notes, but definitely there's lots of resources. 464 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 2: I have links for buying the book clearly, but I 465 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 2: do want to tell folks I am donating all my 466 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: royalties to charity, so there's no personal gain here. It's 467 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: all going to charity because it's just important for me 468 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 2: to get this content out. And furthermore, I hate asking 469 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: people to buy my book, so it's much easier if 470 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 2: I tell them I'm not making money off of it. 471 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 2: So please buy the book by the book if you 472 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: want to learn about one on once. The money's all 473 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: going to cancer research, so buy the book if you 474 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 2: want to help eradicate cancer. 475 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: We'll get better at one on one meetings as well, 476 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: So the book is glad we met. I will link 477 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: to that in the show notes. Thank you so much, 478 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: Steven Oh, thank. 479 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 2: You so much for having me. I really appreciate it. 480 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love to ask 481 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: a favor. Click follow on the podcast app that you're 482 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: listening to this on, and if you're feeling really generous, 483 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: leave a review for the show. Following this podcast and 484 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: leaving reviews helps How I Work find new listeners, and 485 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: your support is one of the things that makes this 486 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: podcast possible. Thank you for sharing part of your day 487 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: with me by listening to How I Work. If you're 488 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: keen for more tips on how to work better, connect 489 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. 490 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded 491 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of 492 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: the cool And Nation. I am so grateful for being 493 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: able to work and live on this beautiful land, and 494 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: I want to pay my respects to elder's past present 495 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: and emerging. How I Work is produced by Inventium with 496 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: production support from Dead Set Studios. 497 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 2: The producer for this episode 498 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: Was Liam Reardon, and thank you to Martin Nimba who 499 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: did the audio mix and makes everything sound better than 500 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: it would have otherwise.