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Speaker 1: About the year ago, I got connected with one of

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Speaker 1: the legends of the Australian podcasting world, Kelly Riordan. At

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Speaker 1: the time, Kelly was head of Podcasts for the ABC,

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Speaker 1: overseeing the one hundred plus podcasts that the Australian broadcaster

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Speaker 1: was putting out there. The ABC produced some of my

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Speaker 1: favorite shows like Conversations, Ladies, We Need to Talk and

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Speaker 1: Corona Cast. So when I decided to look for a

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Speaker 1: producer for How I Work at the end of last year,

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Speaker 1: Kelly was my first point of call, and as Lackwood

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Speaker 1: have it, she'd recently left the ABC to start her

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Speaker 1: own production company, dead Set Studios. So now Kelly and

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Speaker 1: I have been working together since the start of the

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Speaker 1: year and I have learned so much from her, And

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Speaker 1: on today's show, I've invited Kelly on to talk about

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Speaker 1: some of the insights that she's got from the show

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Speaker 1: that she currently hosts, Curveball, and also to chat about

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Speaker 1: my journey on How I Were.

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Speaker 2: My name is doctor Amantha Imbert.

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Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science

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Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium, and this is How I Work, a show

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Speaker 1: about how to help you do your best work.

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Speaker 2: So let's head to my chat with Kelly.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Amantha, I have been such a big fan of

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Speaker 3: how I work for a long time because I'm so

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Speaker 3: interested in productivity hacks because I'm just so busy. Anytime

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Speaker 3: that i can shortcut something or automate it, I'm all in.

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Speaker 3: So tell me what was the original idea behind the

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Speaker 3: show and how you came to podcasting.

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Speaker 1: So for me, I've been procrastinating about starting a podcast I.

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Speaker 2: Reckon for two years and then I'm like, just do it.

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Speaker 1: Just do it, like record six eight episodes and see

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Speaker 1: what happens.

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Speaker 2: And the idea that I wanted.

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Speaker 1: To explore is that I was always really fascinated by

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Speaker 1: all these successful people in the world that had achieved

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Speaker 1: so much with their lives. Yet we've all got the

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Speaker 1: same amount of hours in the day, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to know, are they using their time differently to the

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Speaker 1: rest of us. Surely they're doing something differently. And so

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Speaker 1: at the time of having this idea and thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to bite the bullet, I'm going to start

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Speaker 1: a podcast, I was also attending TED twenty eighteen in Vancouver,

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Speaker 1: which gave me amazing access to some of my first

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Speaker 1: guests like Adam Grant and Amanda Palmer and Matt Mullenweg

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Speaker 1: the co founder of WordPress and Automatic So that's how

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Speaker 1: it all came about.

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Speaker 3: Wow, which is crazy to think you even went to

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Speaker 3: TED because it's like so expensive and you're in the

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Speaker 3: room with like the minds in the country.

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Speaker 2: I know, how did you convince them.

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Speaker 3: To go on? What then was your little show on

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Speaker 3: the other side of the world.

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Speaker 2: With zero downloads. I have no idea, I really I don't.

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Speaker 2: I think I just I pitched it.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like the TED proper crowd is very

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Speaker 1: inclusive and very generous because you have to apply to

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Speaker 1: get in. It's basically a curated group of two thousand people,

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Speaker 1: which sounds quite big, but I think they're quite picky

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Speaker 1: on who they accept and so I feel that because

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Speaker 1: I was accepted into that, they probably were like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: you know TED has a spirit of generosity, so I'll say, yes,

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Speaker 1: I think that's what was going on.

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Speaker 2: But really, I think I was also very lucky.

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Speaker 3: You have an incredible ability to transpose some of their thinking,

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Speaker 3: you know, all these great minds from around the world

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Speaker 3: into practical, real tips that you can apply. Though and

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Speaker 3: that's because your background is, of course in workplaces. Can

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Speaker 3: you tell me about your background?

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Speaker 1: So I trained as an organizational psychologist, So I did

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Speaker 1: my doctorate in that. Gosh, I graduated twenty years ago,

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Speaker 1: which I.

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Speaker 2: Feel that makes me really old.

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Speaker 1: But I was always just fascinated by the idea of

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Speaker 1: how can we help people feel happier and more purposeful

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Speaker 1: and ultimately do better work that we're more proud of,

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Speaker 1: given that this is where we spend a third of

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Speaker 1: our waking lives. So for me, it's like, what better

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Speaker 1: way to use my psychology skills than to help people

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Speaker 1: with this thing that occupies so much of their life.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about one of your most recent episodes,

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Speaker 3: which I just loved because it was a woman who's

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Speaker 3: brought her skills in comedy writing and this sense of

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Speaker 3: sort of levity and humor that we can bring into

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Speaker 3: the workplace and into the boardroom. Tell me about that episode.

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Speaker 1: So that was with Naomi Bagdonus, and she lectures at

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Speaker 1: Stanford Business School in humor.

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Speaker 3: I can't believe that that's a thing, right, I know,

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Speaker 3: that is totally a thing, and she had it on

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Speaker 3: her business card. Humor.

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Speaker 1: I know surely, surely she should or would. And so

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Speaker 1: I came across Naomi because I read her book Humor Seriously,

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Speaker 1: which she co wrote with another person that she teaches

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Speaker 1: with at Stanford, and it was fascinating.

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Speaker 2: So I've always been.

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Speaker 1: Very interested in comedy, like I attend a lot of comedy.

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Speaker 2: I love April in Melbourne.

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Speaker 1: Because it's comedy festival time and I'm always just really

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Speaker 1: interested to understand how do you be funnier, how do

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Speaker 1: you construct a joke? How do you bring more humor

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Speaker 1: and levity into work? Because I don't feel like there's

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Speaker 1: enough of it, and it's something that I really try

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Speaker 1: to do at Inventium. So I've picked an excerpt from

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Speaker 1: my interview with Naomi about an example of how she

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Speaker 1: brought humor into something very serious, which is writing the

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Speaker 1: book Proposal for Humor Seriously.

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Speaker 4: When it was time to write a proposal again, something

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Speaker 4: that could seem really intimidating, we started a Google doc

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Speaker 4: and we titled it a Really Shitty Proposal, And so

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Speaker 4: every time we opened this duck, it would say a

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Speaker 4: really shitty proposal and it'd be like, you know, I

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Speaker 4: text her at six am and be like, hey, I'm

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Speaker 4: in the shitty proposal right now. I'll see you their

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Speaker 4: leader today, and it's so funny that stuck.

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Speaker 2: So we ended up.

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Speaker 4: Kind of mistakenly turning it in at one point to

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Speaker 4: a publisher that way, and they loved it so much

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Speaker 4: that we ended up pitching it to all the publishers

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Speaker 4: as a really shitty proposal. Human shiously, a really shitty proposal.

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Speaker 4: And so we knew at the beginning that there were

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Speaker 4: parts of this that we're going to be really hard

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Speaker 4: and bringing me a slog, and so it was our

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Speaker 4: way of creating these hacks and reminders to ourselves to

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Speaker 4: have a sense of levity and really to practice what

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Speaker 4: we preach as we're doing it.

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Speaker 1: Kelly, you have been hosting Kerful for the last few months,

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Speaker 1: and I've loved hearing some of the stories that you

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Speaker 1: have uncovered.

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Speaker 2: You're so great at.

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Speaker 1: Building uh you know, like essentially what is a leadership

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Speaker 1: and business podcast into these fascinating stories, which I feel

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Speaker 1: is such an art but also not surprising given your

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Speaker 1: background heading up podcasts at the ABC. So what have

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Speaker 1: you loved most about creating Curveball.

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Speaker 3: I think it was a couple of things for me

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Speaker 3: because My background is as a producer and a content creator.

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Speaker 3: And also I've been behind the microphone way back when

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Speaker 3: I was a junior. And then, you know, as tends

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Speaker 3: to happen in your career, you end up kind of

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Speaker 3: moving up the chain, and I did that at the

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Speaker 3: ABC and kind of became a leader in the organization.

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Speaker 3: And so I was running content teams in both radio

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Speaker 3: and podcasting, and so I was away from the microphone,

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Speaker 3: and I just had this itch to get back to

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Speaker 3: something that I really love, which is just talking to people.

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Speaker 3: You know, like, we have this amazing ability, you and I,

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Speaker 3: and this amazing opportunity to speak to some of the

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Speaker 3: top minds in the world, and so I just find

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Speaker 3: it great to just get inside their mind and kind

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Speaker 3: of peak around and see what's going on inside their brain.

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Speaker 3: And I was a little bit like you. I'm fascinated

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Speaker 3: by how really great minds and great leaders and great

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Speaker 3: people in the workplace come to kind of be how

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Speaker 3: they are and what kind of forms their background and

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Speaker 3: drives them what makes them tick. And I love poking

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Speaker 3: around those stories. So the idea behind Curveball was both

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Speaker 3: I was starting a new business, so I wanted people

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Speaker 3: to kind of help me on the journey of starting

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Speaker 3: a small business for the first time. But it also

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Speaker 3: was about, you know, poking around in other people's business,

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Speaker 3: which is what you do when you're a journalist or

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Speaker 3: a podcast host. So it's been a real privilege.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so funny.

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Speaker 1: Like the guests that you and I have had on

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Speaker 1: our respective shows, it's like, normally in real life, they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't give us an hour of their time, but because

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Speaker 1: we have a podcast that people listen to, you get

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Speaker 1: to spend an hour with these amazing people, which is

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Speaker 1: one of the things I think that I love most

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Speaker 1: about podcasting.

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Speaker 2: Do you relate to that?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And that's the great gift and the great joy,

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Speaker 3: And it's such a privilege. And I think spending time

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Speaker 3: with these people to understand their process, Like I'm a

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Speaker 3: completely obsessed with process, Like I think we as a

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Speaker 3: society are obsessed with the outcome or the success or

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Speaker 3: the thing that happens at the end of the story.

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Speaker 3: But I really want to know what happened along the way.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things with Curveball is, of course

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Speaker 3: we talk about the successful leaders and the wonderful things

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Speaker 3: they've done, but the whole concept of the show is

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Speaker 3: a curveball, right, that something can be thrown at you

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Speaker 3: at some point and you don't know how to deal

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Speaker 3: with it, or it's come out of nowhere, it's never

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Speaker 3: happened before, like a global pandemic, and so I'm interested

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Speaker 3: in how people cope with that. I think one of

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Speaker 3: the people I love chatting to was Carolyn Creswell, and

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Speaker 3: she's the owner of Carmen's in Australia that does the

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Speaker 3: Musli bars and the Musli and bliss balls and all

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Speaker 3: those sorts of things. And she's so authentic, she's so real.

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Speaker 3: She started that Musley company with you know, two thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars in her pocket when she was about twenty one,

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Speaker 3: and she's built it into this incredible empire. But I

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Speaker 3: think what I loved most about talking to her was

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Speaker 3: the idea that you know, nothing is ever finished, and

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Speaker 3: she very much views it as a journey. And I

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Speaker 3: thought this that she said on the podcast was really

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Speaker 3: interesting about success versus failure and how closely related they

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Speaker 3: actually are.

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Speaker 5: A boat in the harbor is safe, but eventually the

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Speaker 5: bottom will rot out, and if you don't push yourself

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Speaker 5: out there, if you are not having any failures, you

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Speaker 5: are not taking enough risks.

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Speaker 3: It's so good, isn't it, Because it's she just encourages

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Speaker 3: you to be bold and to think differently and to

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Speaker 3: go you know what, You're going to learn a lot

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Speaker 3: when you take a risk, and even when you fail.

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Speaker 1: I know, she's very inspiring. I've known her for a

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Speaker 1: few years now, and I had her on How I

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Speaker 1: Work I want to say, maybe like eighteen months ago

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Speaker 1: or something, and she's just so impressive, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like she just leads with a lot of heart as well,

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Speaker 1: like she just cares so much.

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Speaker 3: Anyone that has a yoga studio or a meditation space

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Speaker 3: in their workplaces all right by me?

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Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, she's really good.

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Speaker 3: Look another person I think who I heard on your

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Speaker 3: show recently that has some similar traits to Carolyn in

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Speaker 3: that he's very authentic and he's trying to do good

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Speaker 3: in the world is Simon Griffiths from Who Gives a Crap?

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Speaker 3: Tell me about the interview you did with him?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was really interesting.

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Speaker 1: They had such an insane year in twenty twenty where

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Speaker 1: at one stage they had received so many orders for

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Speaker 1: toilet paper they had half a million people on their

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Speaker 1: waiting list, and I'd love to play just a grab

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Speaker 1: from that in terms of how Simon and his team

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Speaker 1: approached that problem.

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Speaker 6: Our team at the start of that whole process realized

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Speaker 6: that that was our moment to shine as a remote

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Speaker 6: first company that sells toilet paper online. It was like

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Speaker 6: we've been training for twenty twenty, for the five or

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Speaker 6: six years prior, and so everyone's got their heads down

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Speaker 6: and worked really hard knowing that you've we got this right,

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Speaker 6: and we solved this problem in the right way. It

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Speaker 6: would ultimately end up in this huge donation at the

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Speaker 6: end of the financial which for us is the thirtieth

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Speaker 6: of June. And so when we got to the end

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Speaker 6: of that mailing list in June and then made a

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Speaker 6: five million dollar donation at the end of June, it

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Speaker 6: was icing on the cake of all of this incredible

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Speaker 6: work that had come before that.

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Speaker 3: He's got a real sense of purpose about what he does.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I think it's hard when you're a

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Speaker 1: leader trying to sort of balance things where you're steering

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Speaker 1: a ship when things are going crazy and like the

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Speaker 1: seas are wild, but then also trying to remain composed

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Speaker 1: and reassure people that things are going to be okay.

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Speaker 2: And I know that you.

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Speaker 1: Had the x CEO of Virgin Paul Scarat on your show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he was incredible. The first conversation I had with

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Speaker 3: him for the podcast. He'd been through so much already

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Speaker 3: because COVID had happened. He had to ground all his flights,

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Speaker 3: you know, international travel was gone on, Domestic trouble was

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Speaker 3: gone at that point as well, and they ended up

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Speaker 3: in administration. He worked through that, they found a new buyer,

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Speaker 3: and then at the eleventh hour he got rolled out

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Speaker 3: of his job and to add kind of insult to injury,

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Speaker 3: he was replaced by a Quantus executive. So it was

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Speaker 3: really quite brutal. But he was generous enough to come

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Speaker 3: back and speak to me even about that and what

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Speaker 3: that is like. And I think one of the things

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Speaker 3: again that's stuck in my mind about this interview is

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Speaker 3: how steely focused Paul Scurray is and how much he

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Speaker 3: uses that kind of mindset or that positive approach even

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Speaker 3: when there's chaos.

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Speaker 7: First and foremost, I think it's important to look like

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Speaker 7: you are calm and in control at least of the message.

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Speaker 7: But at that point in time, it's not lost on

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Speaker 7: me that there's ten and a half thousand people who

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Speaker 7: looking to me to lead through whatever it takes to

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Speaker 7: rescue us. So I think it's important to keep everyone

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Speaker 7: as calm as you possibly can, but at the same time,

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Speaker 7: you need to keep them as informed as you possibly

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Speaker 7: can as well. And it's not a time for being

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Speaker 7: cute with your words or being a little bit less

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Speaker 7: than transparent.

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Speaker 3: I think that idea of keeping you know and keeping

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Speaker 3: people informed on what's really going on, but having the

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Speaker 3: right tone around it is so crucial. So how do

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Speaker 3: people find the How I Work podcast?

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Speaker 1: Well, search for How I Work wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your podcast, and I'm sure we will link to it

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Speaker 1: in the show notes as well.

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Speaker 3: And similarly, you can find Curveball by searching for it,

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Speaker 3: or you can go to curveballshow dot com. Thank you

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Speaker 3: for all the great episodes of How I Work.

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Speaker 1: And you too, Kelly for all the great episodes of

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Speaker 1: Curveball Talk too soon.

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Speaker 2: Bye. That is it for today's show.

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Speaker 1: If you are not currently a subscriber, you might want

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Speaker 1: to hit subscribe because on Thursday I have a very

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Speaker 1: awesome interview with comedian Sammy Jay, who is also on

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Speaker 1: the ABC. He now does mornings and has done for

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Speaker 1: the last year on ABC Melbourne and I chat with

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Speaker 1: Sammy about all sorts of things, from how to be

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Speaker 1: funny on cue, how he overcomes writer's block, and how.

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Speaker 2: To just bring more humor to the workplace in general.

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Speaker 1: So hit subscribe or follow wherever you listen to How

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Speaker 1: I Work. How I Work is produced by Inventing with

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Speaker 1: production support from Dead Set Studios. And thank you to

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Speaker 1: Martin Imba who did the audio mix and makes everything

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Speaker 1: sound awesome.

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Speaker 2: See you next time.