1
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,400
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

2
00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,960
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

3
00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:10,000
Speaker 2: wants answers.

4
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,720
Speaker 3: Now, kids who can't be frustrated don't learn as well

5
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,240
Speaker 3: as kids who can. I would much rather have a

6
00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,880
Speaker 3: perfectly average kid who can be frustrated in my classroom

7
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,720
Speaker 3: than a super gifted and talented kid who has no

8
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,640
Speaker 3: capacity to be frustrated and tends to give up.

9
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,040
Speaker 2: And now here's the scars of our show, My mom

10
00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:28,560
Speaker 2: and Dad.

11
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,000
Speaker 4: Well, last week we had this incredible conversation with New

12
00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:36,000
Speaker 4: York Times bestselling author Jessica Lay. Jessica wrote The Gift

13
00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,920
Speaker 4: of Failure, How the best parents learn to let go

14
00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:40,919
Speaker 4: so their children can succeed.

15
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,600
Speaker 1: Jessica is a mum of a couple of kids.

16
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:44,960
Speaker 4: She's also got a brand new book out that we're

17
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,279
Speaker 4: itching to talk to her about. But Kylie, oh, by

18
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,320
Speaker 4: the way, I'm Justin Coilson, got a PhD in psychology.

19
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,160
Speaker 4: I've written six books about raising happy families, and I'm

20
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 4: here with Kylie, my wife and mom to our six daughters.

21
00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,040
Speaker 4: Today we're going to get really practical about the gift

22
00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,120
Speaker 4: of failure, what we're supposed to do about it, how

23
00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,520
Speaker 4: we're supposed to help our children fail in productive ways. Jess,

24
00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,240
Speaker 4: it's so generous of you to come back and talk

25
00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,920
Speaker 4: to us again. Thank you so very much for joining us.

26
00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,920
Speaker 4: Of course, we talked a lot last week about this

27
00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,919
Speaker 4: issue of parents not wanting their children to fail.

28
00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 1: We want them to be awesome all the time. And

29
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:25,240
Speaker 1: something that we.

30
00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,640
Speaker 4: Didn't really go into any depth fond Well, two things

31
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,120
Speaker 4: we didn't go deep on. We didn't talk about the

32
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,280
Speaker 4: practical stuff of how to help children fail. But there's

33
00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,200
Speaker 4: one thing that I think we could have maybe spent

34
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:36,920
Speaker 4: it just a minute or two on, and I'd like

35
00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 4: to start there. You touched on it, but we didn't

36
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,360
Speaker 4: expand on it. You said that it's really horrible for

37
00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,040
Speaker 4: a parent to see their child fail, because we don't

38
00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,800
Speaker 4: like seeing our children experience frustration. Can you talk for

39
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 4: a bit about what your research has shown about parents

40
00:01:55,160 --> 00:02:00,520
Speaker 4: discomfort with their children's sadness, big emotions, failures, frustrations, toll

41
00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,040
Speaker 4: that it takes on a parent when a child's not

42
00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:02,480
Speaker 4: doing well.

43
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,639
Speaker 3: Just like the research actually on what makes us share

44
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,639
Speaker 3: an article, we know that things the articles go viral

45
00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,200
Speaker 3: tend to tap into our like heated emotions like anger

46
00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,519
Speaker 3: and upset and outrage and those really make us act.

47
00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,840
Speaker 3: And it's really similar with parenting. But the interesting thing

48
00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,359
Speaker 3: though about not letting our kids feel frustrated, is that

49
00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,639
Speaker 3: Wendy Grolnik's research shows and she does some wonderful research

50
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,600
Speaker 3: on autonomy supportive parenting and the what that does in

51
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,919
Speaker 3: terms of learning and motivation is she did this one

52
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,760
Speaker 3: experiment where she looked at parenting styles autonomy supportive versus directive,

53
00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,080
Speaker 3: and she found that children of really highly directive or

54
00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,040
Speaker 3: controlling parents. But really the best word for this is directive,

55
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 3: because they give a lot of directions to their child,

56
00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 3: they guide their child through tasks, those kids had much

57
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,720
Speaker 3: lower threshold for dealing they could just didn't have the

58
00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,080
Speaker 3: emotional wherewithal to deal with frustration, so they tended to

59
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,600
Speaker 3: give up and not complete difficult tasks, tasks that were

60
00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,480
Speaker 3: sort of created in order to be difficult on purpose

61
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,880
Speaker 3: to elicit some frustration, whereas the kids of autonomy supportive

62
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,720
Speaker 3: parents were much more likely to complete the challenging task.

63
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,000
Speaker 3: And the problem with that is when kids have a

64
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,760
Speaker 3: really low threshold for frustration and just don't know what

65
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,600
Speaker 3: to do with that feeling and can handle it and

66
00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,880
Speaker 3: tend to, you know, go helpless and boneless and fall

67
00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,919
Speaker 3: apart and quit whatever it is they're doing. Is once

68
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:34,200
Speaker 3: they're in school especially, one of the most powerful tools

69
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,839
Speaker 3: I have as a teacher is something called desirable difficulties,

70
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,880
Speaker 3: and it is a task where just being able to

71
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,040
Speaker 3: parse it and sort of understand the task and get

72
00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 3: through the task requires us to think sort of much

73
00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,080
Speaker 3: more to be to really it's harder to parse, and

74
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,320
Speaker 3: so when we don't give ourselves the opportunity, or because

75
00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,920
Speaker 3: we're too frustrated and we just give up, we don't

76
00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,920
Speaker 3: benefit from those desirable difficulties and difficulties. In code learning,

77
00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 3: it bypasses short term memory, goes straight to encoding it

78
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,840
Speaker 3: and long term memory. So when kids are able to

79
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 3: complete desirable difficulties or tasks with desirable difficulties, they tend

80
00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 3: to know the material more deeply in the short term

81
00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,599
Speaker 3: and remember it better in the long term. So kids

82
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,159
Speaker 3: who can't be frustrated don't learn as well as kids

83
00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,560
Speaker 3: who can. That's just that sort of the short version

84
00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,200
Speaker 3: of that whole story, which is I would much rather

85
00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,719
Speaker 3: have a perfectly average kid who can be frustrated in

86
00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,640
Speaker 3: my classroom than a super gifted and talented kid who

87
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,160
Speaker 3: has no capacity to be frustrated and tends to give up.

88
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,839
Speaker 3: The average kid who can be frustrated is just going

89
00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,440
Speaker 3: to learn a lot more in my classroom chairs.

90
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,160
Speaker 2: It's interesting. The other day, our six year old turn seven,

91
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,800
Speaker 2: and she loves puzzles, and we brought her this one

92
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,920
Speaker 2: hundred piece puzzle. She's already got one, and she knows

93
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,640
Speaker 2: how to do that with a She was doing it

94
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:56,800
Speaker 2: four and five times a day, so I thought, we'll

95
00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:58,799
Speaker 2: just extend it and we'll get her a different one.

96
00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,200
Speaker 2: And I wasn't able to help her when she first

97
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,279
Speaker 2: opened it, but she was so excited about it, and

98
00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,760
Speaker 2: she pulled it out with her cousin and they sat

99
00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 2: down and they kind of they sat there probably for

100
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,120
Speaker 2: about ten or fifteen minutes and realized that this was

101
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,800
Speaker 2: just really hard, and because there was two of them,

102
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,640
Speaker 2: they kind of got, you know, engaged in something else,

103
00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,800
Speaker 2: and they walked away. But that night she pulled me

104
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:18,279
Speaker 2: back in and she said, Mom, can you help me

105
00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:19,960
Speaker 2: with the puzzle. So I sat down with her and

106
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,479
Speaker 2: we worked on it together. And she knows, you know,

107
00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,000
Speaker 2: kind of how to do things, and so we worked

108
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 2: on it. You know, kind of systematically, and she worked

109
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,600
Speaker 2: through it and we got it done well. The next

110
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,640
Speaker 2: morning she asked me if I could help her again,

111
00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,440
Speaker 2: but I was I was doing some ironing and I

112
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,360
Speaker 2: just wanted to get through a few more items before

113
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,159
Speaker 2: I sat down with her, and I said, Mommy's just

114
00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 2: going to you know, finish what she's doing here and

115
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:39,800
Speaker 2: then I'll come and help here. And she got a

116
00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,159
Speaker 2: little bit frustrated by it. And the next thing, I

117
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,360
Speaker 2: turned around and she the biggest smile on her vlie,

118
00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,600
Speaker 2: proud as punch. She'd actually completed the task, and she

119
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,479
Speaker 2: was just she was just beaming. But I'm wondering, you know,

120
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,880
Speaker 2: what do I do and what are the things that

121
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,839
Speaker 2: I can actually say when my child isn't you know,

122
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,839
Speaker 2: successful in that moment and they really, you know, really

123
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,920
Speaker 2: struggling with it and are ready to give up. How

124
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 2: do I help them work through that?

125
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, So one of the things that I have done

126
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,320
Speaker 3: a lot with parents is help them through you know,

127
00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,680
Speaker 3: when kids get a lot of directions from their parents,

128
00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,840
Speaker 3: they tend to have a really low tolerance for waiting,

129
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,120
Speaker 3: you know, waiting very long for the answers. And so

130
00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,719
Speaker 3: there's this interesting weaning process that we can do where

131
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,520
Speaker 3: when our kid, For example, I say kids are working

132
00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,960
Speaker 3: on a puzzle or homework or whatever, and they're like,

133
00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 3: I need help. Someone come and help me. If you

134
00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,560
Speaker 3: can make a short term excuse and say something like

135
00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,560
Speaker 3: I'm working on dinner right now, I'm just chopping up

136
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,200
Speaker 3: this stuff, and if you can just give me a

137
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,159
Speaker 3: minute or so, I'll be right with you. But why

138
00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,000
Speaker 3: don't you read the instructions again? Why don't you look

139
00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,200
Speaker 3: at the picture again? Why don't you look for all

140
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,440
Speaker 3: the edge pieces first? Sometimes that can be really helpful

141
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,440
Speaker 3: with a puzzle, if you can help redirect them back

142
00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 3: to the task and give them an interval, and if

143
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 3: nothing else, that interval helps them sit with that feeling

144
00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 3: of frustration and helps them learn how to deal with it.

145
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,440
Speaker 3: And of course we will go help. But what I

146
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,920
Speaker 3: have found, especially as a teacher, is often that redirection

147
00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,920
Speaker 3: and sort of giving them a suggestion as to how

148
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 3: to re engage with the thing or maybe a new strategy.

149
00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 3: Often by the time we get there to go help

150
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,000
Speaker 3: them with it, they're like, never mind, stay away, I

151
00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:21,800
Speaker 3: figured it out on my own. I don't want your help.

152
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,960
Speaker 3: So you know, there for some kids can be a

153
00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,480
Speaker 3: very real process of stretching that period of time out

154
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,000
Speaker 3: so that they can get used to feeling the frustration

155
00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,160
Speaker 3: so that they have more of a tolerance for it.

156
00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,480
Speaker 3: But it's absolutely possible to do it even with older kids.

157
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,720
Speaker 1: Kylie, I love that story, Jess. I love what you've

158
00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:41,160
Speaker 1: said there.

159
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,080
Speaker 4: So what I would normally say to a parent in

160
00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 4: that situation is you want to delay.

161
00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,080
Speaker 1: You want to say, as you indicated, I'm just doing this.

162
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,760
Speaker 4: If you go and get started, I'll be there because

163
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,280
Speaker 4: by pushing them back in there, they'll have another go.

164
00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,360
Speaker 4: Just you tell me, what do you think is the

165
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 4: first thing you can do? You want to just get

166
00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,760
Speaker 4: them going again. But something that you said there that

167
00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,520
Speaker 4: I've never thought of before, and it's really inspired me,

168
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,400
Speaker 4: is if you just give them a hint, give them

169
00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:10,800
Speaker 4: a new strategy, redirect them that gives them what. I

170
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 4: can't remember who it was, someone wrote a book about

171
00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,400
Speaker 4: tiny wins. It was bj Fog, the guy at Stanford

172
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,280
Speaker 4: who's behind all of the addictive technology stuff.

173
00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:21,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know who bj Fog is.

174
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,000
Speaker 4: He talks about how we want to give people tiny

175
00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,600
Speaker 4: wins because as we do that, they have that sense

176
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,760
Speaker 4: of competence, and with competence comes confidence and motivation, and

177
00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,880
Speaker 4: all of a sudden they're back in. It's classic self

178
00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,199
Speaker 4: determination theory kind of ideas. The redirection with the new

179
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,240
Speaker 4: strategy is a really powerful idea that's just twigged for

180
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 4: my brain.

181
00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,160
Speaker 3: Well, think about younger kids and their executive you know,

182
00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,920
Speaker 3: younger kids, their frontal lobes not even hooked up yet,

183
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,440
Speaker 3: and so for them, especially something like a puzzle, or

184
00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,720
Speaker 3: you know, with older kids, something like writing a research

185
00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,880
Speaker 3: report requires a bunch of smaller tasks in order to

186
00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,199
Speaker 3: get to the large tasks. So there's the note taking,

187
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,080
Speaker 3: there's the outlining, there's the blah blah blah rough draft whatever.

188
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,160
Speaker 3: So often so for in order to build kids what's

189
00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,360
Speaker 3: called self directed executive function, helping them figure out what

190
00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,240
Speaker 3: the small tasks are on the way to the big task,

191
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,720
Speaker 3: whether that's a goal or an actual physical task. So

192
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,960
Speaker 3: you could say to your kid, you know, with puzzles,

193
00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 3: sometimes people you know, put the whole edge thing together

194
00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,520
Speaker 3: and then they find it's a lot easier to put

195
00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,920
Speaker 3: the middle together, and then the kid gets that feeling,

196
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,160
Speaker 3: that shot of dopamine in the head, the head of

197
00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,880
Speaker 3: dopamine from Oh Wow, I put the whole outside together.

198
00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,000
Speaker 3: Now let's move on to the inside. It takes a

199
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 3: task that's normally overwhelming or you know, they just don't

200
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:37,400
Speaker 3: know where to start with it, and breaks it down

201
00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,959
Speaker 3: into something that's easier to comprehend and easier to get

202
00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:40,720
Speaker 3: those small wins.

203
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's bringing into small chunks and getting those tiny

204
00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:45,960
Speaker 4: wins as a result. We're going to take a quick

205
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,720
Speaker 4: break in just a sick We want to find out

206
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:54,120
Speaker 4: how chores can help children to fail and learn to

207
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,160
Speaker 4: do life better. That's coming up in just a sec

208
00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,400
Speaker 4: with Jessica Lay, the author of The Gift of Failure,

209
00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,000
Speaker 4: on the Happy Families podcasts.

210
00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,720
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

211
00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,960
Speaker 5: Our Screens Creating Tension at Home, tweens, teens and Screens

212
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,559
Speaker 5: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.

213
00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,680
Speaker 5: Bye today at happy families dot com, dot au slash shop.

214
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,920
Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

215
00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,559
Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now, And today we're

216
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,360
Speaker 2: talking to Jessica Lay. We've had one conversation with her

217
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,480
Speaker 2: already about her book, The Gift of Failure, and we

218
00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,960
Speaker 2: are enjoying diving into how we can as parents help

219
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,000
Speaker 2: our children work through this idea of failure.

220
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,520
Speaker 4: Help I can be nothing, do nothing, go nowhere, be hopeless,

221
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,440
Speaker 4: fail at everything, because that's good for your kid. We

222
00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,560
Speaker 4: just don't want we don't want you to succeed with that.

223
00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 4: That's not what it's about at all. Kylie, you you

224
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,720
Speaker 4: stumbled across something in Jess's book that really inspired you.

225
00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,720
Speaker 2: I love Jess that you talked about this idea and

226
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,920
Speaker 2: importance of chores. Can you tell us what this has

227
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,760
Speaker 2: to do with teaching our children about failure.

228
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,520
Speaker 3: Well, first, I don't call them chores because I don't

229
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,920
Speaker 3: know about you, because I don't want to do something

230
00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,080
Speaker 3: that's called a chore. I mean, you're set up for

231
00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,560
Speaker 3: it to sound horrible, right, so, and it also makes

232
00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,800
Speaker 3: it sound like it's something specific to the kid. Well,

233
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,400
Speaker 3: we call them in our house or household duties because

234
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,440
Speaker 3: they are part of being a part of the family.

235
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,440
Speaker 3: Like you don't do them for money. So for example,

236
00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 3: so there's no in our house, there's an allowance situation,

237
00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,640
Speaker 3: but it has nothing to do with doing household duties.

238
00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,080
Speaker 3: Household duties are things you do as part of being

239
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,360
Speaker 3: a part of a family and sort of holding moving

240
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,160
Speaker 3: the family forward as a unit. And there is actually

241
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,679
Speaker 3: really good research to show that when kids are helping

242
00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,800
Speaker 3: out with the family, helping move the family forward, especially

243
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,600
Speaker 3: during times of hardship, that kids tend to be less

244
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,240
Speaker 3: emotionally damaged by challenges in the family. When kids are

245
00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,360
Speaker 3: feeling like they're even if it's something as small as

246
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,280
Speaker 3: putting their dishes in the dishwasher or helping feed the dogs,

247
00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,360
Speaker 3: that they are a part of maintaining the face family

248
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,400
Speaker 3: and they're really involved in the family structure. So and

249
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,560
Speaker 3: by the way, there's a fantastic book called The Opposite

250
00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,480
Speaker 3: of Spoiled by Ron Lieber that is about raising kids

251
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,000
Speaker 3: with you know, to deal with money, and he is

252
00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,880
Speaker 3: in total agreement. We do not pay kids to do

253
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,440
Speaker 3: work around the house, but you give kids. You give

254
00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:20,880
Speaker 3: kids and allowance in order to help them learn about spending,

255
00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,560
Speaker 3: saving and giving and that and budgeting. And that's a

256
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,480
Speaker 3: really so Ron Lieber's book, The Opposite Is Spoiled is

257
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,920
Speaker 3: brilliant and I can't recommend it highly enough. So having

258
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,040
Speaker 3: age appropriate tasks for kids and I actually break down

259
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 3: in the book what kids are capable of at all

260
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,560
Speaker 3: the ages, along with what their cognitive development situation is,

261
00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,040
Speaker 3: what their manual dexterity situation is, what they're capable of

262
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,400
Speaker 3: doing and at what age. And when you look at

263
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,280
Speaker 3: that list, there's all kinds of things that even small

264
00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 3: kids can be doing. And one of the fun things

265
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,760
Speaker 3: about writing having written this book is people send me

266
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,959
Speaker 3: videos of things that their kids are doing and are

267
00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,120
Speaker 3: so proud of. There was a dad sent me a

268
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,960
Speaker 3: picture or a video of his maybe five year old

269
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,960
Speaker 3: son and two year old daughter, and the five year

270
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,600
Speaker 3: old son wanted to help with the laundry desperately, but

271
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,000
Speaker 3: it was a top loading washing machine, and so you know,

272
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,480
Speaker 3: he can't reach in there very well. So the little

273
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,840
Speaker 3: boy had set it up so that his little sister

274
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,280
Speaker 3: was supposed to hold onto his pant legs so that

275
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,400
Speaker 3: if he were to fall in the washing machine, and

276
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,800
Speaker 3: don't worry. The dad was right there, obviously, he was filming,

277
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 3: and so he said, you pull me out if I

278
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,920
Speaker 3: get stuck, And so he would pull the pieces out

279
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:31,839
Speaker 3: one at a time, hanging over the edge of the

280
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,200
Speaker 3: washing machine, hand them to his sister, and his little

281
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:35,880
Speaker 3: sister would put them in the dryer and then at

282
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,839
Speaker 3: the end, it was really sweet. He didn't actually get stuck,

283
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 3: but he pretended like he got stuck so his little

284
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:42,960
Speaker 3: sister could help him out, and she pulled him out

285
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,920
Speaker 3: of the washing machine. And these moments like they're just

286
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,320
Speaker 3: so proud of themselves, and we don't give them opportunities

287
00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,880
Speaker 3: to feel like a useful member of the family, a

288
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,880
Speaker 3: member of the family that's pulling some weight, that has

289
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,400
Speaker 3: a steak in the family and is not just some

290
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,160
Speaker 3: precious object that we, you know, we give no responsibilities to.

291
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,600
Speaker 4: In the Gift of failure, you've talked about a number

292
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,320
Speaker 4: of things that are so beautifully aligned with I've got

293
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:09,920
Speaker 4: a webinar called the Perils of Praise.

294
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,240
Speaker 1: But can you just outline why do we not want.

295
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,720
Speaker 4: To say good job, or good sharing, or good helping,

296
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,720
Speaker 4: or good eating or good running or good.

297
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,040
Speaker 1: Breathing to our children? Why do we need to back

298
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:25,680
Speaker 1: off on the praise.

299
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 3: Well, for a couple of reasons. Number one, because it's

300
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 3: now just become white noise to them, Because especially kids

301
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,960
Speaker 3: who get told that all the time, it's just it's

302
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,320
Speaker 3: you know, they don't even hear it anymore. But and

303
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,320
Speaker 3: then on top of that, you know, if we're telling

304
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,720
Speaker 3: them that all the time, that it's it's not a

305
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,840
Speaker 3: valuable commodity anymore, right they you know, we tell them

306
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,240
Speaker 3: that for everything. But as a teacher, one of the

307
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,440
Speaker 3: things that I know is that the more specific the feedback,

308
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,600
Speaker 3: the more helpful it is. So and by the way,

309
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,720
Speaker 3: a lot of people misunderstand Carol Dwex's message about crazy

310
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:02,080
Speaker 3: and so they're they're very a very simplistic, Like I

311
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,280
Speaker 3: read the article on it, but didn't actually read the book.

312
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,400
Speaker 3: Their understanding tends to be, you know, never tell your

313
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,400
Speaker 3: kids they're smart and only praise them for their effort,

314
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,760
Speaker 3: which is dumb. That's just not very helpful. So, you know, Mike,

315
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,840
Speaker 3: common things in our house would be things like, you know, Sweetie,

316
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,200
Speaker 3: I noticed with that math problem. You know, a month

317
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,080
Speaker 3: ago or six months ago, you would have just given

318
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,440
Speaker 3: up because that was really tough for you, but you

319
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 3: would like stuck with that for like thirty minutes. I

320
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,680
Speaker 3: noticed that, and I'm so proud of you for that.

321
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 3: And the more specific the feedback is on whether it's

322
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,360
Speaker 3: the actual performance itself or the effort that went into

323
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,240
Speaker 3: the performance, the more useful it is. There's even research

324
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 3: in education to show that when we give assignments where

325
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,240
Speaker 3: kids get no feedback, they're just worthless. They're waste of time.

326
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,280
Speaker 3: Even if it's just practice, it's a worthless assignment. So

327
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,280
Speaker 3: the more specific the feedback, the better.

328
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:52,880
Speaker 1: I love that.

329
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,400
Speaker 4: And I would add one more thing. Parents would do

330
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 4: well to just say to the children.

331
00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 1: How'd you feel.

332
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,040
Speaker 4: We want to encourage the reflection because self oriented. When

333
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 4: I'm praising myself, I believe it. When someone else praises me,

334
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,520
Speaker 4: it can feel a little bit empty, it can feel

335
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,920
Speaker 4: a little bit less helpful, or it can have undermining effects.

336
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 4: So that's just a little bonus tip there. Just we're

337
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,240
Speaker 4: out of time. We've had such a great conversation. I

338
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,760
Speaker 4: feel like we've barely scratched the surface. So thank you,

339
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 4: so very, very very much for sharing what you have

340
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,600
Speaker 4: shared with us. The book is called The Gift of Failure,

341
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 4: How the Best Parents Learn to let Go so that

342
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,480
Speaker 4: Children can succeed. It's been out for a couple of

343
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,600
Speaker 4: years now. It's a New York Times bestseller. It's been

344
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:34,680
Speaker 4: wonderfully successful, and.

345
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,480
Speaker 3: It's in fourteen languages. So English is not your first language,

346
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,920
Speaker 3: then heck go at it with everything from Vietnamese to

347
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,480
Speaker 3: Arabic to Italian, so out there and other languages too.

348
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,239
Speaker 4: You can get it in any format you want, audiobook

349
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 4: or ebook, or you can buy one of those old

350
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,600
Speaker 4: fashioned ones that you can fold down pages and highlight

351
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,480
Speaker 4: and scribble all over as well, which is what I've

352
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,880
Speaker 4: done with my one. It's been a delight to talk

353
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,880
Speaker 4: to you, Jessica. I feel like we've kind of become

354
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:02,840
Speaker 4: friends over the last little wile. We've been able to

355
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,199
Speaker 4: talk to you a few times. Now, you have a

356
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,720
Speaker 4: new book out that is really provocative and really intriguing.

357
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 4: I wonder whether or not we could invite you to

358
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,359
Speaker 4: come back one more time to talk about your new book,

359
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 4: because I think you think that parents would love to

360
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:17,400
Speaker 4: hear about that.

361
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 3: Sure thing. I love talking about the new book. It

362
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,040
Speaker 3: was product of a couple of years of research, so

363
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:24,399
Speaker 3: I love talking about that stuff.

364
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:24,880
Speaker 1: Awesome.

365
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,120
Speaker 4: Well, we're excited about that. We'll look forward to having

366
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 4: you on again real soon to do that. The Happy

367
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,560
Speaker 4: Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruhlan from Bridge Media.

368
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,760
Speaker 4: Craig Bruce is our executive producer, Kylie. If people want

369
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:38,679
Speaker 4: to find out more about how they can make their

370
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,160
Speaker 4: family happy, other than buying.

371
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:41,720
Speaker 1: The gift of failure. Where should we send them?

372
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:52,080
Speaker 2: They can go to happy families dot com. Today you