Speaker 1: Flex and Frooms, Flex and Frooms.
Speaker 2: This is the Flex and Froomes catch up podcast.
Speaker 3: Flex and Frooms on Cada. I hate to be bringing
Speaker 3: the conversation here, but I'm so happy we've arrived. We're
Speaker 3: talking about misogyny versus massandry.
Speaker 2: I will say I never I'll never forget. When I
Speaker 2: was in year eleven, I called my mom a Messandras
Speaker 2: because she she showed some slight feminist qualities.
Speaker 1: WHOA like Mom? No Messandras.
Speaker 3: So Google defines misogyny as the dislike of, or contempt for,
Speaker 3: or ingrained prejudice against women, and then defines massandry as
Speaker 3: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against men.
Speaker 3: There's this TikTok creator who's made a name for herself
Speaker 3: by making this kind of reactionary content on the app,
Speaker 3: so she's basically like a comedic Messandress. Gives her audience
Speaker 3: tips and tricks, some ingest, some completely serious on how
Speaker 3: to essentially undermine men by punching down right. And so
Speaker 3: I guess, like the reason why her content feels so
Speaker 3: salacious is I can imagine when it comes to calling
Speaker 3: out men, a lot of women have been told to
Speaker 3: take the highroad, right, like, don't stoop, but she's like,
Speaker 3: when they go low, I go lower. Here are the
Speaker 3: tips and tricks, and it's quite funny, right, And so
Speaker 3: I was thinking about how like when I read the
Speaker 3: comments of these posts, there are people there who are
Speaker 3: of the belief that it's the same, like misogyny is
Speaker 3: the same as massandry. And as a woman, if you
Speaker 3: are making fun of men in any way or using
Speaker 3: the same tools and references that they use against them,
Speaker 3: that you are succumbing to them, or you're what's the
Speaker 3: word I'm looking for, like you're perpetuating, perpetuating them, or
Speaker 3: you'll make your normalizing it. And it's counterintuitive. And if
Speaker 3: you want misogyny to go away, then you need to,
Speaker 3: you know, fight fire with kindness, et cetera, et cetera,
Speaker 3: et cetera. Now I have a lot of thoughts on that,
Speaker 3: but I think the main one is I don't know
Speaker 3: if people will be able to understand the humor in
Speaker 3: massandry if they don't understand the real life impacts of misogyny.
Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of people regard misogyny as
Speaker 3: a thing that only the most extreme of terrible people
Speaker 3: do like only that really outright in cell woman hater
Speaker 3: would ever be misogynists. And I hate to be the
Speaker 3: one to tell you, but if you were raised in
Speaker 3: a patriarchy, you currently there's no doubt. I put money
Speaker 3: on it. But we don't connoe gambling. We do not
Speaker 3: that you are battling some kind of misogyny, internalized or otherwise.
Speaker 3: And I feel that's why sometimes we don't really know
Speaker 3: how to position, if, how and where massandry fits. Like,
Speaker 3: is massandry a fair response for misogyny? Is it taking
Speaker 3: it too far? Is exactly what we need to balance
Speaker 3: the scales. I feel as though the reason why people
Speaker 3: are so shocked when people are publicly massandrist is because
Speaker 3: they've found a way to play misogyny so far so
Speaker 3: that suddenly you're seeing it for what it is. Sometimes
Speaker 3: it can be brutal, unfair, uninformed, or like hit you
Speaker 3: like whiplash, But you don't feel that when it comes
Speaker 3: to misogyny, because it's become this very neutral thing. It's
Speaker 3: very neutral for people to see women as being uninformed
Speaker 3: or inferior, or not as powerful or not as capable
Speaker 3: of wielding violence in the same way I think we'll
Speaker 3: have this conversation off air, you and I three me.
Speaker 3: I think people should be way more scared of women.
Speaker 3: I know a lot of women who make a conscious
Speaker 3: effort to tamp down their violent nature, Like who suppress
Speaker 3: it because it's not appropriate, right, or a lot of
Speaker 3: women who have to talk themselves out of being as
Speaker 3: crazy as they want to or as reactive as they
Speaker 3: want to for the benefit of the greater vibe. And
Speaker 3: if women worldwide weren't doing that, if every woman had
Speaker 3: permission to be crazy like their male counterparts, what I
Speaker 3: would be sad because you don't.
Speaker 2: Know and you don't see you were saying that. This morning,
Speaker 2: I watched a clip by Clementine Ford. She had stitched
Speaker 2: with a guy, one of those like motivational self help
Speaker 2: kind of like guys, and he's like, when she's angry,
Speaker 2: let your woman be in her feminine anger, right thing,
Speaker 2: And like Clementine, as she always does, fantastically kind of
Speaker 2: like pulled the argument apart and was like, if men
Speaker 2: like this think that women getting angry is part of
Speaker 2: like their feminine need, then it like totally discredits their anger.
Speaker 2: I do wonder though this TikTok credit that you're talking about.
Speaker 1: I know where. I like her. I think she's really funny.
Speaker 2: Do we think though, maybe pointing out like the things
Speaker 2: that men do that are really shit and like doing
Speaker 2: it in a joke way, like we've all heard the
Speaker 2: certain same things that are.
Speaker 1: Like like, what's an example, put.
Speaker 3: Your hand on a smaller woman's back, call his interests stupid.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, stuff like that.
Speaker 3: Tell him he needs to smile more, or ask him
Speaker 3: if the reason why he didn't get a promotion at
Speaker 3: work was due to the way that like he dresses
Speaker 3: or something.
Speaker 1: See that's amazing, but thank you, that was off the dome.
Speaker 2: I will say, there's a different type that's like pointing
Speaker 2: out the bad stuff that like.
Speaker 1: His receding hairline exactly.
Speaker 2: And that makes me think, like, is pointing out this
Speaker 2: finally I've used like scribbling on my notepad for something
Speaker 2: I actually have a thought, Yeah, note to that is
Speaker 2: pointing out bad stuff that men do, or like negligent
Speaker 2: things that men do, just reinforcing the idea that that's
Speaker 2: in their nature. Do you think, like I wonder, like
Speaker 2: I wonder if some men would then watch that and
Speaker 2: be like, oh, yeah, all men are like that's why
Speaker 2: I can just continue to be like that, Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: not good.
Speaker 3: But do you feel the same way, like when you
Speaker 3: see rhetoric on the internet being like women are inherently
Speaker 3: feminine and empathetic and like all women just want to
Speaker 3: find someone to fix and like caretake and you know
Speaker 3: every woman I know wants to be looked after by
Speaker 3: a strong man or whatever. Do you find yourself of
Speaker 3: being like yeah, like I guess that is me, or
Speaker 3: do you say like, oh, I can see that, but like, nah,
Speaker 3: that's not for me.
Speaker 1: I think I can do that.
Speaker 2: But the difference is they're mostly they're not like harmful
Speaker 2: things that women do.
Speaker 3: M I see what you're saying, Like I think in
Speaker 3: some instances, but I often think a lot of these
Speaker 3: arguments become obsolete when we assume that the adult hearing
Speaker 3: them is without agency for sure, And like I keep
Speaker 3: going back, like men made patriarchy and capitalism and sexism
Speaker 3: and racism, and these systems like work well like unfortunately,
Speaker 3: well do you know what I mean, to the point
Speaker 3: where you don't even know that you're participating, and you're like.
Speaker 1: Your front lines, you're recruiting.
Speaker 3: So I just refuse to believe that we're like, well,
Speaker 3: if we point out when so and so does so
Speaker 3: and so, are we just normalizing. It's like no, I
Speaker 3: think that the system like telling us so like to
Speaker 3: point it out is just it's it's a futile But
Speaker 3: what I will say is that I feel like, make
Speaker 3: the content do whatever, because I feel as though what
Speaker 3: stops people from changing or evolving is they're getting shielded
Speaker 3: from the message they need to receive the most. So,
Speaker 3: you know, like when you're let's say, when you're in
Speaker 3: high school whatever, and people like you don't talk about
Speaker 3: periods in front of like people don't have periods, like
Speaker 3: it's just inappropriate. It's like, well, now we're adults and
Speaker 3: they don't have the information. You're kind of like, well,
Speaker 3: when are they going to seek it out right? Or
Speaker 3: let's not talk about sexism in front of the person
Speaker 3: who's oppressing us, let's not talk about race with white people.
Speaker 3: It's like, okay, so we can stop doing that. But
Speaker 3: then we get to a point where these conversations to
Speaker 3: reach boiling point and we have to start.
Speaker 1: From scratch scratch sh.
Speaker 3: And then what But while those conversations are happening, I
Speaker 3: definitely think that like, not everyone can do this widespread work,
Speaker 3: Like whether or not you think misogyny content massndry content
Speaker 3: has a.
Speaker 1: Place to live.
Speaker 3: The way that it's reaching a ton of people at
Speaker 3: once and starting these like bubbling conversations all at once
Speaker 3: need to happen only if we as individuals are finishing
Speaker 3: the work. I know of a lot of people who
Speaker 3: would be the first to make masondurie content and misogyny content,
Speaker 3: but wouldn't say anything in their own circles. And I'm like, wow,
Speaker 3: what are we doing? What are we doing?
Speaker 1: I both relate to and see this happen in the wild.
Speaker 3: In the wild, it is the feeline high value woman
Speaker 3: tried to fertile.
Speaker 1: After all the trade wife jokes.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I spoke about this last week,
Speaker 2: but I actually went and did some googling on what
Speaker 2: a trade wife means, and it's simply no laughing matter.
Speaker 2: I'm just like the idea of like chilling at home,
Speaker 2: like I'm working from home guys thru me.
Speaker 3: Actually did some research and you wouldn't believe what I found.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm being serious.
Speaker 3: But I'm with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is so funny how it's literally
Speaker 2: so hard to do these things in practice. A because
Speaker 2: it's bothersome, b because it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 3: Do you know when it stops getting hard, though, like
Speaker 3: when you're actually impacted by it in a way that
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, I wish I didn't have to go
Speaker 3: through that. When I was finishing high school, I met
Speaker 3: a lot of women who were like, I'm not a feminist,
Speaker 3: I could never be one. And it's like you just wait,
Speaker 3: like you wait, your time will calm, Your time will
Speaker 3: calm because while we all formed touchrap of being like
Speaker 3: it doesn't impact me, so I'm not gonna be bothered
Speaker 3: by it, and that everybody's prerogative.
Speaker 1: Like I'm down with that.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of things to not care about in
Speaker 3: life or to care a lot about. But and I've
Speaker 3: been thinking about misogyny a lot because the older I get,
Speaker 3: and I look at the lack of community, especially in womanhood,
Speaker 3: like I look at brotherhood a lot, I'm like, what
Speaker 3: do you people have to be so loyal about? Like
Speaker 3: when I look at the connections between men and men,
Speaker 3: I'm like, you didn't.
Speaker 1: Even work for that.
Speaker 3: You need to work for that, And the rest of
Speaker 3: us are putting in hard yards with our little sisterhoods
Speaker 3: and being like, what is where's the friction coming from?
Speaker 1: Where's friction coming from? It's like, oh, because the friction
Speaker 1: is on the.
Speaker 3: Path to like this like amazing utopia. But also there's
Speaker 3: so much to learn about the way that we are
Speaker 3: so neutral towards misogyny, or the way that it's laughable,
Speaker 3: the way that people don't laugh at missandry. So like,
Speaker 3: let's talk, get out, giggles up, let's start giggling, gigle, giggle.
Speaker 3: So when I say he's got a receding hairline, don't
Speaker 3: start defending this imaginary man who's got a receding hairline
Speaker 3: because it's coming Like I don't like that I talk
Speaker 3: about some imaginary man receding hairline.
Speaker 1: People are up in arms, like, I don't know, it's mean,
Speaker 1: it's mean. I'm in a mean camp.
Speaker 2: He doesn't exist, No, he does, though I don't know.
Speaker 2: That's where I draw one but you.
Speaker 3: But someone's like calls a woman like an empty head bimbo,
Speaker 3: and everyone's like, what I mean?
Speaker 1: Is she?
Speaker 3: So? Now we're now we're inquisitive. Does he have a
Speaker 3: receding hairline? Potentially? Like I want people to go for
Speaker 3: bat for women like they do for men.
Speaker 2: I do feel like the sisterhood comes easier than the brotherhood.
Speaker 3: We have sisterhoods. I don't know if I can trust her,
Speaker 3: trust her?
Speaker 1: Can you trust him?
Speaker 3: The becas going for inside that trust him and I
Speaker 3: love him whoever he is.
Speaker 1: You've been listening to the Flex and Rooms Daily podcast.
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